Game Thread: Werewolf- this time it's real!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Having read the last couple posts, I've become a bit suspicious of Greenie now. First, Nogrod mentions her as one of the people he's "afraid of" and suddenly Greenie finds Nogrod more suspicious than anyone else? While I'm not sure a wolf would be so blatant and defensive, I think she needs to be looked at; I've a feeling about her.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

In his next post is a case against Nienna and the double-vote for her and Kuru. What I find interesting is that the earlier post makes it look like he just wants to choose one of the "slackers" (not a nice thing to say, by the way, and I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this anyway), and yet in the next one he brings up his case against Nienna, sounding like he genuinely suspected her of wolvery. I find this kind of controversial, rather like a wolf seeing a nice straw and grasping at it a tad too hard.

Okay, let's start with the politically correct behaviour. The term 'slackers' was straight loan from Sally's post where she called people slackers for not posting enough. I agreed with her - and also about her being one... So no offence meant.

But yes, I did actually suspect Nienna of wolvery and she was one of the least posting persons on Day1. So I can see no problem there as she fitted both categories (not posting & suspicious) to me. On the other hand, I wouldn't have had anything against Alonariel, Shasta, Sally, Fea... except that they posted a way too little. So voting someone of them back there would probably have been just a vote wasted. (That's why I think people should post if they play)

How come you Greenie don't call your own "case" against Agan yesterDay (known innocent) or on me toDay (an innocent) "a wolf seeing a nice straw and grasping at it a tad too hard"?

One thing about style once more. Why do you say grasping it "a tad too hard"? What was "too hard" there? Giving a reason and a vote? Now that kind of talk is called rhetorics which is the most convenient tool for those who know what they are doing.

EDIT: X'd with Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I almost decided to post why I've been so gone recently, but I decided that's better left to the admin thread. I'll go there after I'm done with this post.

Anyway, re: Nogrod on Form.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The thing that makes me look at this post by Form suspiciously is the bolded part of it. The moral highground of after-wisdom!

in which the bolded part is:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

So this leaves me with the following: Brinn either saw something genuinely suspicious in Nienna--which I must admit I don't see at all--or else you had a different reason for killing her? A wolf saving a cobbler? A cobbler saving a wolf?

Conclusion? Brinn is moderately suspicious.

Now, Nogrod. You're saying that the thing that makes you the most suspicious of Form is that he doesn't see the same thing Brinn does? How on earth does that make sense? Explain it to me, would you?

[Nogrod]

Btw. You should pay heed to what Agan and I said already yesterDay: the number of bonus votes staying up with everyone will be against the village on a long run - and that run might be short indeed. You may think it's an individual guarantor making you more powerful in a tight spot but you should realise that that is a mind-trap.

For in a hard situation innocents are collectively more reluctant to - and basically unable to - use a lot of their power concentratedly but those who know what they are doing can calculate the level of force used and the target exactly. That means that 30 (or 40) evil votes against, let's say 70 votes, is far greater power than 3 (or 4) votes gainst 7. And getting into that exemplary situation takes only two Days of missed lynches (this included)!

I know I'm fighting windmills here but at least I can say afterwards "didn't I tell you?"

The problem of course is that if there is no common deal that we should make a collective disarmament the baddies will not give up their voting power - and it might be too late already for that to be tried. Blah... this looks bad indeed.

Originally Posted by Shasta

You're saying that the thing that makes you the most suspicious of Form is that he doesn't see the same thing Brinn does? How on earth does that make sense? Explain it to me, would you?

Nope, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the wolves love to gloat with that kind of moral highground afterwards when others vote innocents: "You fools voted for someone whom I saw so clearly was an innocent - or are you fools in the first place? Maybe you're baddies with hidden knowledge?" The manouver tries to make them look reasonable and thoughtful & getting innocents right (eg. they are good to have around) etc... I've seen that too often to believe anyone saying that kind of stuff.

But I must halt your interpretation on another front as well. That is not what I find most suspicious with Form and to be honest I think I'm quite at loss with him at the moment. I do distrust him but I'm not quite sure he would be my number one - or even number two - choice toDay.

[Firefoot]

Just ducking in... I'll be around for about another hour or so, and then I'm going to have to vote... I can't guarantee that I'll be back again before the deadline.

Only looking at the order of the votes, I'm generally not seeing a whole lot that looks suspicious. If Kuru was proven to be a wolf, Izzy and Brinn as the last two jumpers on the Nienna bandwagon would look suspicious... but that's a big if.

Now I'm going to read a little closer and try to figure out who to vote for toDay...

[Nogrod]

Okay... the situation is bad unless we can force the baddies to use their bonus-votes now to save their mate (and possibly reveal themselves in the process) or actually get one of them down toDay if they decided not to save their mate with their extra-votes. Both would do good but it would require a real threat; like someone getting it right and being ready to use a lot of votes for it.

I might consider trying it as I'm not too confident on the number of Days I will be around anyway.

The only problem is that I would need to get it right. Otherwise the plan will fail.

Any ideas of whom I should try? Kuru, Fea, Greenie...?

And where are you people? I need to go to sleep pretty soon as well - even if I still may try to wake up a bit earlier like on Day1 to make, confirm or redo my vote then.

EDit: X'd with Firefoot - good to see someone around.

[Isabellkya]

Originally Posted by Nog

I have to ask you about this though. Would you explain me what are you after with this for it beats me entirely. I just don't get what you're saying - or the relevance of it.

Of course, I'll explain more of what I was thinking.
This situation might help more. If it were to come down to a true tie, and one on the block is a wolf/vampire. Then one of bad intentions could come and vote for both of the candidates. Yet vote for their mate first. Keeping it at a tie, but making sure their mate is safe without being so obvious about it. Afterwards, they could be all "I thought both were evil, and couldn't choose between the two."

Which you can see, is why I wondered about your ordering of votes.

Do you mind pointing out how my vote looks so bad?


I'm liking your style Kent. You seem to be a dive-right-inner.

You could be the vampire, Kuru.

Form, you brought up a good point. The evils could've been looking for a kill choice who had a higher probability of being an Ordo, and thus turnable. Though it looks like that can only happen two/three nights.

How is it a host of reservations, when it was a single word - uncomfortable. Which if you look back, it was about the seeming hoppers - Sally and Gwath whom came out of nowhere.


X'd since Shasta's #323

[Kent2010]

I'm not seeing anything suspicious about Greenie, maybe it's my bias, but I kind of can put myself in her shoes right now. I don't know what I'm going to do, I don't have any idea who I'm going to vote for, and I still have a while, as I can probably be around at the deadline. Based on Greenie's location, she can't and it may seem like she's grasping at straws, but I'd imagine if you don't know what to think, or who to vote for, and you are hard pressed for time, than that's the kind of suspicious you'll get.

Not all of us are gifted with the "time" to write out clear and concise suspiciouns against people. I'm not suspicious of Nogrod, but Greenie looks very honest right now and I don't see the deal.

Nope, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the wolves love to gloat with that kind of moral highground afterwards when others vote innocents: "You fools voted for someone whom I saw so clearly was an innocent - or are you fools in the first place? Maybe you're baddies with hidden knowledge?" The manouver tries to make them look reasonable and thoughtful & getting innocents right (eg. they are good to have around) etc... I've seen that too often to believe anyone saying that kind of stuff.
-Nogrod

I don't think it's so much someone apologizing for there vote before hand, going back to what I said earlier, I don't see the big deal about Nienna's creative way of saying "I could be wrong."

I wonder if I'm just seeing something that's not there, but I think Form's looks like it doesn't fit.

So this leaves me with the following: Brinn either saw something genuinely suspicious in Nienna--which I must admit I don't see at all--or else you had a different reason for killing her? A wolf saving a cobbler? A cobbler saving a wolf?

It reads as a "by the way," which makes it look like it was added into the statement after the fact. I am not saying Form went back and editted what he originally wrote (there is no "edit" for the post), but I am saying I imagine wolves have to be pretty careful about what they say, and think about what they are saying all the time. This almost looks like it's something Form felt would be a good manuever to add the statement in after the fact, to make him look like he "knew better." Because it does read like a "by the way, I don't see why everyone was suspicious of Nienna yesterday."

Where if you look at Nienna's the reason I didn't understand your point about the..."I reserve the right to be utterly wrong" (paraphrasing - should be close enough), is because it fits with the flow of the post. She lays out her reasons against Nogrod and at the end definitely says "I'm not sure."

This might be..."grasping at straws," but I will say I've read a lot of books and historical documents. I find it fascinating to read them and see what was the written "originally" and then seeing the editting done afterwards, to add in something extra, or maybe to clear up something. The original Declaration of Independence, I think people must get a hold of (I should say a copy of the original) because there are spaces and indications of what words should be emphasized and where people should take their breaths/pauses when reading it. Even funnier, Family Guy makes a point of this with the "Right to bear arms," as the framers discuss in the 'editting' process whether that was "clear enough."

I assume wolves are careful and in ways edit what they say. I don't mean directly go back and edit their posts afterwards, but in the process of writing think about what they're saying and are careful about what they add or don't add. Formendacil's "moral high ground" as Nogrod calls it, doesn't fit - it's like an "I should add this to make myself look better."

I'm probably making much to do about nothing, because I'm really not all that suspicious of Formendacil, but the part in question is out of place.

This x'ed with Nogrod and Izzy

[Firefoot]

So the more I think about it, the odder Nogrod's vote seems to me. He brings Kuru's count up to 5, at the same time giving Nienna her first vote. It seems like if he was only going to vote once, it would have been for Nienna - and I couldn't find that he ever really says he suspects Kuru that much. It almost looks like a vote for Kuru just because Kuru was a "safe" vote because lots of people suspected him so it wouldn't really be suspicious to also vote for him.

It actually seems rather sloppy.

I see that Izzy also picked up this thread, but Nogrod mostly just brushed her off.

And then this:

On a second note. Interesting how Kuru appears very helpful doing an analysis on why Aganzir was killed - but looking at it more closely - how do I get a feeling it's more a post trying to convince us he's no baddie than a post to clarify the reasons behind Agan's death?

Someone questioned why no-one has suspected Kuru toDay. Well I can confess that I still do.

But I'll now try to look at other possibilities as well - and what could be implied if Kuru is a wolf / a cobbler.

Huh. Like I said, Nogrod didn't really seem to me all that suspicious of Kuru yesterday at all. And despite saying he was going to look at possibilities of Kuru's wolvishness, he hasn't... he hasn't even really mentioned Kuru again.

Right now, my inclination is a vote towards Nogrod... I'm a little leery of this, because Nogrod's doing far more talking than a lot of people, so I'm wondering if he doesn't just seem suspicious because there's more to analyze of him than most.

My other thought has been that Kent has seemed... a little obsessed... with his newbie status, wanting to be treated fairly and all that... but if he was a wolf I think I'd expect him to play it up differently.

I'd really like to see some other people post before I have to vote... but, as I said, at this point it's probably going to be Nog. And if I'm back before the deadline (I'd say there's about a 50% chance), I'll look at what's new and maybe or maybe not change my vote...

X-ed with Kent.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I wonder if I'm just seeing something that's not there, but I think Form's looks like it doesn't fit.

It reads as a "by the way," which makes it look like it was added into the statement after the fact. I am not saying Form went back and editted what he originally wrote (there is no "edit" for the post), but I am saying I imagine wolves have to be pretty careful about what they say, and think about what they are saying all the time. This almost looks like it's something Form felt would be a good manuever to add the statement in after the fact, to make him look like he "knew better." Because it does read like a "by the way, I don't see why everyone was suspicious of Nienna yesterday."

I am deeply amused that this little interjection of mine is getting so much attention. If it reads like "by the way, I don't see why everyone was suspicious of Nienna yesterday," that's because that is very much what I was saying... but in a slightly different tense. More along the lines of "by the way, I didn't see THEN why everyone was suspicious of Nienna." Granted, I may not be helping myself with this clarification... but you ARE more or less interpreting me right--not going to complain about that.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I need to look at Form a bit more as I'm afraid some of these suspicions may stem from just the fact that we differ on many things in this game and it's easy to read disagreement as suspicious if one is not careful enough.

This is true enough. I cannot think of a general WW principle we agree on. Day 1 is an excellent case in point...

Actually, that's not true... I'm not sure if we agree about my innocence--you seem to have reservations--but, at least for the moment, I agree that you're probably innocent. I may be shooting myself in the foot by trusting you, but it occurs to me that I've disagreed with you in past WW games and had it turn out you were innocent, so for now it just feels like Nogrod is being exactly the Nogrod he ought to be.

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

My other thought has been that Kent has seemed... a little obsessed... with his newbie status, wanting to be treated fairly and all that... but if he was a wolf I think I'd expect him to play it up differently.

Oh hopefully not sounding obsessed, I guess that's better than ungrateful. I really don't want to sound ungrateful for the courtesy, but playing "fair" just wasn't something I was expecting in werewolf. Either way someone is going to be lynched first and killed first by the wolves, that's the nature of it. It might be fair to give me some courtesy, and I understand letting me play a bit, but how is it fair for someone else to get lynched first for the reason of letting me play more? Fair just sounds like it should be foreign in here, at least that's what I was expecting, but props to those who try to be more "fair" than I would be.

At least Nogrod makes it sound like a very short courtesy and it could just be I have no idea what I'm asking for.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I feel like I'm jumping around a lot today, but this -

Originally Posted by Form

I agree that you're probably innocent. I may be shooting myself in the foot by trusting you, but it occurs to me that I've disagreed with you in past WW games and had it turn out you were innocent, so for now it just feels like Nogrod is being exactly the Nogrod he ought to be.

- rings a number of alarm bells for me. It definitely seems like something a baddie would do (I know, I've seen it done before!)

Edit: X'ed with Kent and changed the person quoted from Kuru to Form.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

My other thought has been that Kent has seemed... a little obsessed... with his newbie status, wanting to be treated fairly and all that... but if he was a wolf I think I'd expect him to play it up differently.

To be fair, I think I would also be the sort of person to harp on about being a newbie in a game like this if I were to jump in right now--there's a lot of history between some of the players here.

That being said, Kent, you are officially not on my "probably innocent" list because you haven't made a newbie wolf move. Your reasoning is entirely too reasonable (and, yes, I'm willing to grant you're the author) for me to like it. As with Nogrod, I'm almost more comfortable in this game when there are disagreements to unsettle my gut instinct that someone is on my side. In your case, I have no gut instinct about you, so I'll warily accept your reasonability as a sign I don't want to lynch you today.

Sigh... Who do I want to lynch?

Brinn--moderate between guilty and not.
Nogrod--probably not.
Kent--hopefully not.

And that's all I've looked at today... I sort of defended Kuru as not being a cobbler, but that doesn't mean he's not a wolf.

So far no one looking vote-worthy.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++Nog (4)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I feel like I'm jumping around a lot today, but this -

Heh. Yes. Yes, you are.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

- rings a number of alarm bells for me. It definitely seems like something a baddie would do (I know, I've seen it done before!)

Not only have I seen it before, I'm fairly certain I've done it before. Of course, you realise that's not a comprehensive list of reasons I could be doing it. I could be a confused cobbler trying to get the wolves to know he's an ally (I'd be no use to them dead). I could be a Seer hinting at a dream (in which case this may be a very foolish post). Or I'm a gifted/ordo who really does have no good reason to trust Nogrod, but is anyway.

The same could apply to you, Shasta, since I remember not trusting you in the slightest when we've played before, but I think we've played fewer games together, and in any case the gut instinct just isn't there. Sorry.

[Nogrod]

Thanks Fea! My plan seems to work already before I had a chance to put it into practise!

Now I just need to think whether to invest my votes on you or Kuru? Or Greenie - that's a longer story but I just feel her being one of the baddies even if I can't point to any definitive case with her. Yes Kent, she looks perfcectly reasonable - and that's the whole point. A good wolf who plays the "under-radar" -style wishes to do just that: post only once or twice aDay and do not suspect too many people so that no-one feels bad with you; then come up with a suspicion you can back with an argument of any sorts, preferably something that follows the general prejudices flying around but still is something of your own (that's easier you could imagine and Greenie has made it two times now), then vanish to the shadows. She is dangerous, mind you.


PS. Izzy (and Firefoot who seems to think / or wants us to believe Izzy has a point there): I still can't see your point: there is no sense in what you say. Are you just missing something about the rules or are you purposefully trying to distract the discussion? If I give Nienna her first vote and Kuru his fifth there is no tie - no "real-tie" or imagined one! One and five votes are not a tie, they are four votes apart. Brinn's was the tying vote, fifth against fifth. It would have been the same whether I placed my votes this way or that. End of story from my part.

[Isabellkya]

o.O such usage of the bonus votes.

Me, I shall go find a dark corner to take a nap. My phone alarm is set, so I should be back a few hours before we've run out of time for our decision. Don't mind the tissues scattered everywhere; I'll clean them up. xD


X'd with Nog

[Isabellkya]

I changed the scenario, so it would be more comprehend-able Nog.
You entering with Nienna/Kuru is blatant messing with my words.
Purposefully trying to make what I say look like something from someone who is completely off their rocker.

I don't believe I'm misinterpreting the items written on the pages over there; nor am I distracting the discussion.

You want to do it your way then, eh?
You gave Nienna her first vote - whom you thought was a wolf.
You gave Kuru his fifth - whom you thought was a Cobbler.

You can, and you have argued that we didn't know whom people were yesterDay.
However even with the lack of knowledge - why would you do such a thing?
You are faced with voting for two people, one you think is a wolf and the other you think is a cobbler.
Why, would you split your votes - in favor of the one whom you thought was a wolf?

[Kent2010]

Now I just need to think whether to invest my votes on you or Kuru? Or Greenie - that's a longer story but I just feel her being one of the baddies even if I can't point to any definitive case with her. Yes Kent, she looks perfcectly reasonable - and that's the whole point.
-Nogrod

I will not vote for Greenie today, if you want to that's your choice. If you want to push your bonus votes on her, I will make a necessary move to see she is not lynched.

I would just like to point out however about Nogrod's split vote. What I questioned was why? considering he said early in the day we harped about how we "really" have to lynch someone. But I do recall in the Day -1, or somewhere in the records, Nogrod saying it would be interesting to divide your votes and seemed fascinated to try it. That doesn't mean he can't be a wolf and still do it, but I'm not sure we should lynch him based on the grounds that he was the only one to split his vote.

I'm more concerned still about Kuru and Fea's 4 bonus votes - all I can say about it right now is she is fishing for a reaction maybe?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And where are you people?

I have a job that for the most part prevents me from posting during the workday.

Speaking of which I am still there so this is just a "I'm watching and will be around later."

[Nogrod]

OMG, how many times do we have to go through this?

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

You can, and you have argued that we didn't know whom people were yesterDay.
However even with the lack of knowledge - why would you do such a thing?
You are faced with voting for two people, one you think is a wolf and the other you think is a cobbler.
Why, would you split your votes - in favor of the one whom you thought was a wolf?

Originally Posted by me in post #286, quoting this the second time

Well, one doesn't exactly know who is what on Day1, right? So voting for two people you suspect the most furthers the chances that one of them gets lynched in comparison to other candidates. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

I was not there on the deadline. I couldn't watch who gets lynched in the end to choose from the two only one. So then one tries to bring up those one thinks are the most suspicious to him - and in this game we have a chance to vote for two.

And it's not in favour of either of them. Both votes are valid and carry as much weight!

Okay, my last chance of trying to understand you: there was indeed a 1/17 chance I might be Pippin to be sure. Is that what you're after? Funnily you haven't mentioned that possibility yourself... it would have been much easier if you had mentioned it right away - and it would have been quite natural for you to say it out plainly if that was what you meant. It would have saved us from a lot of time spent on this unnecessary argument.

Are you possibly getting hints or orders from somewhere all the time and just don't get what they say, like "press on with his vote-case, it's a good one" - and you didn't realise it was the speculation of myself not knowing whether I'm Pippin or not which could be pressed about?

But to be honest, I didn't think about that back then. A chance of 1/17 is as good as nothing in a situation I was not too sure about either of my candidates. They were the ones I suspected, not the ones I knew were this or that. I was just wishing to have one of them lynched as I thought that would be good.

Or maybe we just have a total communication breakdown here? That might be a reasonable solution to this.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I'm more concerned still about Kuru and Fea's 4 bonus votes - all I can say about it right now is she is fishing for a reaction maybe?

Yes. What's up with those votes, Fea dear? I was going to say something when I cross-posted, but I had to be moving quickly... and I'd hoped you'd explicate with a string of one-liner posts. Or something. But this is right out of the blue! The Kuru-suspicion not so much... but the bonus votes? Typically impulsive, maybe... or cobblery-deviant? I don't know...

Nogrod, if you're looking for preferences regarding your bonus-vote splurge, between Fea, Kuru, and Greenie, I'm going to have to go contra-Kentian and say I'd most prefer you went Greenie. It's no more than slight feeling, but she's the only one of the three that even strikes me as queasy. Kuru is flat out neutral. Perhaps he'd be easier to peg if I hadn't defended him against Cobblerism, but as it is I can't push myself off the fence either way on him just yet.

As for Fea, well... I was thinking she was innocent to me (insofar as Fea ever is), but that's admittedly on rather less posting than one normally manages to get a feel off of, and that bonus vote thing is throwing a wrench into things. I'm really not sure where to put her... so as far as that goes, I would be inclined to leave her be for the day.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I will not vote for Greenie today, if you want to that's your choice. If you want to push your bonus votes on her, I will make a necessary move to see she is not lynched.

If you are her packmate I understand. If not, then remember that I warned you about her.

But as I'm not able to overvote you I'll leave her be toDay.

Oh my, you make this hard.

Justr straightening off this one as well as it seems to come up every now and then

Originally Posted by Kent

considering he said early in the day we harped about how we "really" have to lynch someone.

Many early posts are written "in character" as you know... but that happily soon wanes away - unless it's an in-character game where it is prerogative to write IC.

I'm more concerned still about Kuru and Fea's 4 bonus votes - all I can say about it right now is she is fishing for a reaction maybe?

My problems as well. And just as I felt I was ready to decide I see that I wawer.

EDIT: X'd with Form... and reconsidering...

[Gwathagor]

Hey I'm here and reading. Maybe I'll have something to post about after that. We'll see.

[Nogrod]

Btw. the number of "no-shows" starts to be unbearable and is unusually high. If they are wolves that's plain unfair hiding there in the mass-shadows where you can't pick one from another - and if they are ordos that's plain unfair as well letting the baddies roam with their influence. With something like half of the people playing it's hard to say this is a game.

I thought of giving someone a host of votes now and go to sleep and then wake up to see what to do in the morning, but now I think I need to just go to sleep. I'm having six votes right now and am pretty puzzled about a number of things which I should think a little while I try to get some sleep.

I'm still an optimist, you see?

And I'm willing to use a host of votes if it looks like it's needed - or if I have a chance for it... *the little pessimist comes forward*

[Kent2010]

If you are her packmate I understand. If not, then remember that I warned you about her.
-Nogrod

Noted. My point is not to disagree with you about this...

Yes Kent, she looks perfcectly reasonable - and that's the whole point. A good wolf who plays the "under-radar" -style wishes to do just that: post only once or twice aDay and do not suspect too many people so that no-one feels bad with you; then come up with a suspicion you can back with an argument of any sorts, preferably something that follows the general prejudices flying around but still is something of your own (that's easier you could imagine and Greenie has made it two times now), then vanish to the shadows. She is dangerous, mind you.

I expect you to know Greenie's style better than me, and in principle what you say about wolf-behavior makes sense - how they might want to stay under the radar. But wolves can't be 'over the radar?' Wolves can't talk our ears off and throw suspicion all over the place?

I'm just saying to consider situations, maybe someone is under the radar as a wolf ploy, but maybe someone posts little because there's no time? Maybe in the rush to vote you don't have the time to look at all the evidence and refine this wonderfully long post of suspicions. What I am saying is try to consider a person's situation, instead of automatically assuming that if someone only posts once or twice a day they must be a wolf because they want to stay under the radar.

If it gives you any comfort, I am willing to do the same for you today, as I said I would for Greenie. I don't think you are particularly suspicious, and I have no doubt you will be here participating. But I think Greenie is an easy target, and could get ganged up on by people who can be here for the deadline and can read through everything.

Lets not just look at the vote, but something else she said just looks very innocent:

I have to add to this discussion about granting people a free pass on Day 1 for different reasons. I think it's a sort of nice courtesy not to lynch people on Day 1 in their first game - or in their first game in a very long while - unless there is hard evidence against them. Deciding not to lynch somebody because that said person is enjoyable to play with is a trifle more complicated, since the person voted for instead easily gets a feeling that s/he is not as enjoyable to play with as someone else. And that, in my opinion, is one step away from fair play. After all, this game shouldn't be about lynching those you know little and keeping alive those you know and like best, but instead about letting everyone play and treating everyone fairly regardless of whether they are special favourites of yours or not.

I could be fooled by a charm, but this looks honest and innocent.

x'ed with Gwath and Nogrod

[Isabellkya]

I'm beginning to think it is indeed a communication breakdown.

[Lariren Shadow]

I'm here, sorry. I am also noting what our wonderful benevolent mod said about mentioning RL.

As for what I'm thinking about:

I am also worried about the extra votes as well as the vampire character(which I was seeing those references and thinking "there is no vampire roll...oh there is there it is"). Basically the wolves/vampire can save their extra votes for the end as well as the vampire stealing extra votes from someone else. That...just seems like a really good way for the wolves/vampire to either win the game or take out the Seer.

Who I don't like at the moment:
Kent: I'm not sure if it's his style but it seems suspicious to me. I can see where his points can be coming from, but to me he seems way too defensive right now. Whether that is being a newbie wolf or what but I don't like it.

Fea's vote worries me as well. I don't know what to make of it and someone earlier brought up that the odds of Fea being innocent in this game are, well, low. I also wish she could post more and maybe that's where a lot of my worry suspicion is coming from but I understand the not posting. I just don't like it.

And Brinn, who I've been wavering about all Day reading through the posts. She seemed guilty when explaining her vote, but the innocent later and then, I reread, and didn't like anything that I saw.

Most people I have no idea about. I don't really see or like the whole seeing Greenie as a wolf. Maybe its just because I don't see it or maybe it's because, well, its on a sort of hunch that someone else jumped right on.

However, since I know Nog did sort of start the whole thing, reading him toDay he seems rather innocent sounding. So maybe he's right, but I don't like the reasoning behind it at all.

As for the rest of the players, I really have no idea. I really have a big no feel on everyone.

For the wolf not showing up idea: I'm...not sure. I think that it could be a good strategy, however it could not be good to think that. Then it becomes easy to discount the rest of the people and it also becomes an easy way for wolves to hide.

Edit: x-posted with Izzy.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Good morning, everyone!

Being rather narcissistic in regards to this game, my first reads tend to focus on mentions of my name, so:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'll start with my two cents on Day1 voting.

First I have to say I do dislike both the votes of Nilp and Form. Everyone is granted to like or dislike Day1's as much as they wish, but wrapping one's vote into a joke-paper is plain indecent and cowardish. We are left totally clueless about their votes but they can join the speculation over the other votes - and that is intentional. Very suspicious to me.

Bite me.

Will do a more thorough read now over breakfast. Although I must say one of my suspects did not take the bait. The other did, though. So fun! I love this game sooo much!

[Kuruharan]

I feel it incumbant to point out that we are in a rather risky situation even beyond what Nogrod has lined out already, which I think he is at least partially right about.

Due to Alonariel's continued absence we are in grave danger of losing two tonight. The likelyhood of the villagers coming out ahead in something like that are, not to put too fine a point on it, rather remote.

I'm not sure there is much that can or should be done about this but I did want to make sure that more than just me were aware of this.

I hope she turns up soon.

More analysis soon.

[Gwathagor]

These are just my responses from when I was reading. There's not a ton of substance, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Well, obviously Agan was not the seer. If Kuru is not a wolf, the wolves would have known this, so this wouldn't be the reason that they killed her, as she would have just been an ordo (or a non-seer gifted).

I really don't understand what you're saying here. Is it important?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I just realised it when Fea finally posted something...

Now in a game organised by the phantom, what do you think are the odds that Fea is not a baddie? Zero. What are the chances she is Thuringwethil? I'd say 75%.

And what she said gives one reason to believe that it is so.

I presume you don't intend for us to take this argument very seriously? Shouldn't there be a winkey-smiley there or something?

Originally Posted by Kent2010

Don't worry, I got ya, I think it was just the wording and my own paranoia. Is it natural to think everyone is after you and around every corner your killer awaits?

When I first started playing, I was so paranoid that I had trouble eating at the cafeteria...so many potential enemies.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One thing about style once more. Why do you say grasping it "a tad too hard"? What was "too hard" there? Giving a reason and a vote? Now that kind of talk is called rhetorics which is the most convenient tool for those who know what they are doing.

I should point out that rhetoric is simply a tool, and as such can be used with equal ease for good or bad. It should not, on its own, be used as a pejorative term - what matters is the truth or falsehood conveyed. Besides, rhetoric (i.e. speaking persuasively) is ultimately what Werewolf is all about.

Originally Posted by Kent2010

The original Declaration of Independence, I think people must get a hold of (I should say a copy of the original) because there are spaces and indications of what words should be emphasized and where people should take their breaths/pauses when reading it. Even funnier, Family Guy makes a point of this with the "Right to bear arms," as the framers discuss in the 'editting' process whether that was "clear enough."

That's my favorite part of the Declaration of Independence, too.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Yes. What's up with those votes, Fea dear? I was going to say something when I cross-posted, but I had to be moving quickly... and I'd hoped you'd explicate with a string of one-liner posts. Or something. But this is right out of the blue! The Kuru-suspicion not so much... but the bonus votes? Typically impulsive, maybe... or cobblery-deviant? I don't know...

Attempt to get other players to start using their bonus votes, perhaps?

[Formendacil]

Oh my! It IS quiet this evening...

Only one thought, at the moment: will Alonariel be modfired, or will the phantom show mercy, since he knew of these computer troubles? Not that it should really be mattering to our voting one way or another, but it does put a different light on the situation.

Hmmm... not really any closer to deciding about voting... let's see what my list of examined people looks like now that I add Nog's Top 3 Choices. Bear in mind I'm crudely rounding into three groups. Really, everyone should be in the middle...

Guilty:
Greenie--strictly on the basis of quicksand feeling

Unsure:
Brinn
Kent
Fea--after her weird vote thing.
Kuru--not so much unsure as I completely don't know. He's under my radar.

Not Guilty:
Nogrod
(Fea--before her weird vote thing)

So that's only 6 people in the village... Shasta and Izzy look just as guilty as Greenie to me, but all three of them really haven't posted enough (and I agree with Nog that this can be a potential black mark). Lari is perhaps worse, post-wise, but not raising any alarms... Let's see... that makes... 9 people? Plus me, 10. That leaves 3 (*actually had to go look it up...*): Nilp, Sally, and Gwath--all of whom are COMPLETELY below my radar. This disturbs me; none of those three names should be below my radar.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

This is a random vote between the three people I've suspected today, purely so I don't get modfired. I have to rush off.

++Formendacil

Edit: I don't have any idea why I keep mixing up Formendacil and Kuruharan, but I do. Sorry.

[Formendacil]

Okay, so waiting for my slow Internet to load, I realised I messed up on my numbers... there's not 13 of us, there are 15, and while I missed Alonariel, I also completely missed Firefoot. Although Firefoot has always been good at keeping a low profile, the sheer number of players do so this game is rather distressing.

EDIT: x-posted with Shasta's vote for me.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I would just like to point out however about Nogrod's split vote. What I questioned was why? considering he said early in the day we harped about how we "really" have to lynch someone. But I do recall in the Day -1, or somewhere in the records, Nogrod saying it would be interesting to divide your votes and seemed fascinated to try it. That doesn't mean he can't be a wolf and still do it, but I'm not sure we should lynch him based on the grounds that he was the only one to split his vote.

It is possible that Nogrod simply wanted to split his vote for novelty's sake. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense.

[Gwathagor]

Well, I've got to go read Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, but I'll come back and vote in a bit. At this point, nobody is standing out to me as grossly suspicious, I'm very sorry to say. I hate feeling like I have to come up with a vote at the last minute when I don't suspect anyone yet. We'll see.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

When I first started playing, I was so paranoid that I had trouble eating at the cafeteria...so many potential enemies.

Which is why I prefer my approach to the game. So much less stressing, so much more fun.

But anyway, nice catch there Gwath (some other point in the same post). Actually, during my more thorough perusal of the thread, only you and Kent stand out as particularly enlightening in an innocent way.

There are other ways of enlightening, however--darker ones. More on that later.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Kuru

Due to Alonariel's continued absence we are in grave danger of losing two tonight. The likelyhood of the villagers coming out ahead in something like that are, not to put too fine a point on it, rather remote.

Indeed. Where is Alonariel? I would've expected her to be here by now. Any idea what's going on, Lari or Fea? There's still a little under three hours, but nevertheless it's a bit worrisome.

I'm not as worried about Lari or Shasta since they have shown up, though I hope they remember to return and vote in time. Were there any other non-voters? I don't think so...

Thoughts:

Nogrod is acting like his typical self. Often he does get lynched because he is so vocal. Even if I disagree with him on things or find some statements rather bold, I know better than to suspect and vote him without further thought. Too often I help get Noggie get lynched as an innocent for that reason. He's one I always want to watch since he can be a clever wolf, but right now I don't see anything particularly suspicious about him.

I'm not sure what to think of Fea's vote. She tends to make bold moves like that regardless of role it seems. It's not really that she voted Noggie or used her bonus votes that makes me wary, but that she gave him five votes without explanation. Maybe she said she suspected him earlier in the Day and I've forgotten, but it seems like that vote came out of nowhere.

Some other thoughts: I'm liking Greenie right now. Formy makes me slightly uneasy for some unknown reason. I will probably go back and take a look at the bandwaggoners of yesterDay. Obviously not all of them are evil and it's easy for innocents to get caught in a bandwagon early in the game. But I really wouldn't be surprised if at least one was a baddie; after all it's easy for a wolf to hide in a bandwagon and pretend to be a misguided innocent. I haven't really given much thought to who I will vote for, though I think I might try voting a bit earlier toDay. I never mean to wait until the last minute, but it seems I always do.

EDIT: X-ed since #351

[Kuruharan]

I'm still working on my big analysis post...but am I the only one who finds Shasta's vote/explaination a little troubling?