Survivor: The Second Age

[Mithalwen]

I don't think Celeborn is henpecked .... I do find it slightly distressing in this day and age, when modern women are benefitting form the struggle and sacrifices made by our elder sisters, that in a work, which is so often criticised for a lack of strong, female characters, a man who is prepared to let his wife shine is assumed to be an inferior, emasculated specimen. He must have many great qualities not mentioned in the book.

[Anguirel]

Actually, I think he has several that are mentioned.

1. His emancipated attitude to women, noted above. His acceptance of Galadriel's talents, and his chiding of Boromir for ignoring old wives' tales...

2. Evident military ability seen in his three defences of Lorien and subsequent conquest of Dol Guldur.

3. Ability and popularity as a ruler. He stayed on to rule a contented Rivendell without his wife, and apparently lasted a good long time (fanfic authors even like to say he left in the Seventh Age...)

[Folwren]

I don't know who I am making angry with this vote, or who I help (except the one who wrote me), but I'm casting this vote. . . and hoping I won't find it necessary to cast another.

++Khamul

- - Folwrey

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually there's something to be said for Celeborn, faithful husband, etc..
So - - Celeborn

+ + Khamul

[Boromir88]

Found some more time. I think I'll vote for

++Khamul

I mean he's only second in command of the nazgul, far inferior to the Witch-King. I'm usually a pro-keep the bad guys around, because they make really good TV rankings, but he's second in command. He's a chump, he's useless. Celeborn brings in much more ratings because of the girls swooning over him and wanting Galadriel murdered.

[littlemanpoet]

++ Khamul because he was a Black Numenorean who couldn't even live long enough to earn his ring, it had to be given to him on a dare.

[mormegil]

++Celeborn

I haven't been able to keep up with everything much but Celeborn's problem is that you have to use a "k" to pronounce his name. Plus he's already too wealthy with all of his inventions and nobody likes rich people to win more money.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by lord of dor-lomin

To counter The Saucepan Man's obvious anti-elf attitude ...

Evidence, my dear chap?

There are a number of Elves that I would be quite happy to see winning this thing. Indeed, it is regrettable that Celeborn looks likely to remain another day and thereby continue to bring shame upon such a (mainly) noble race.

I would, however, challenge the assumption of Elven (and most particularly male and Noldorian) superiority that certain people appear to make.

The Alliance, by the way, is most pleased by the reaction, and most particularly the sheer desperation, that it is provoking. And, since the phantom and Anguirel seem to have got it into their heads that I am the evil genius at the centre of it all, I shall take the credit, even though I do not deserve it.

Although I am personally displeased to see the balance of the tribes heading out of kilter. That won't be good for the viewing figures, mark my words.

On a slightly different issue, it seems to me that there are a number of unreasoned and weakly reasoned votes (on both sides) this day. Are you going to start getting tough on this sort of thing Formy?

[Formendacil]

The Ninth day of voting was a furious contest in which the rivalry of the day before, of Gil-galad and Khamûl. Gil-galad may have been gone, but his supporters wanted revenge. Furthermore, another Elf was in danger: Celeborn.
For much of the day, it appeared to be a close race, but in the end there was a clear winner. The voting fell as follows:

Erendis: I
Anárion: I

Celeborn: IIIII II

Khamûl: IIIII IIIII II

And so was Lhunardawen avenged for the death of Ereinion, for Khamûl the Black Eastering was removed with the greatest number of votes yet seen for a candidate.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

On a slightly different issue, it seems to me that there are a number of unreasoned and weakly reasoned votes (on both sides) this day. Are you going to start getting tough on this sort of thing Formy?

Not today... but that could be because I personally prefered Celeborn to remain over Khamûl. For the sake of interest, here's how the voting would have fallen, had I followed my more stringent tendencies:

Erendis: I
Ohtar: I

Khamûl: III

Celeborn: IIII

So, you see, good people, that if- one of these days- I should follow my more stringent side, the outcome could be very different. Very different indeed.

Meanwhile, today I did NOT do that. Tomorrow may be different.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Orophir
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Erendis
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 10 begin now. Vote away! The Elendili and the Sindar continue to have the most remaining candidates. The Baddies are now clearly losing.

[Diamond18]

May I be so bold as to inquire, Form, which of the 4 Celeborn votes would have made the cut under your more stringent tallying? Most importantly, would mine have?

[Anguirel]

++SAURON

He's shown an inability to protect his own minions and to carry out any successful scheming. The Witch-King frequently shows enormous potential and as a Child of Illuvatar would make a far more interesting Dark Lord.

If Sauron goes today I will lay off my persecution of the Witch-King of Angmar.

EDIT: The only way the "reasoned" tally makes sense is if you're discounting all the votes referring to Khamul as a camel...including Mith's piece of sparkling comic genius...

[Lhunardawen]

Thank you, everyone, for helping me exact my revenge. Especially you Formendacil for having such a mood as you had when the Day ended.

I'm sorry dancing spawn, but I am left far too devastated by Ereinion's death to even bother about Celeborn - who I now see deserves to last longer in this game.

My next target? ++OROPHIR

Come now...look at what he has helped bring forth into the world! Captain Obvious himself!

Besides...I didn't even know who he was before I asked Nilp.

[Lalaith]

Names I will not take from you, of elf-hater or thrall.

I am neither. Furthermore, I respect fine battle-craft in my enemies as well as my allies, and can only admire the mustering that occured in the dying hours of the campaign last night.

I remain, however, committed to balance in this game, and feel that in the spirit of fairness we should focus on one of the most numerous tribes today - the Elendili or the Sindar. To prove I am no mindless elf-culler, I choose the Elendili. Here, the obvious candidate must be Amandil.
He doesn't want to be on Middle Earth anyway. He proved it not just in his actions, sailing off to the west, but in his very name: it means "devoted to Aman".

So vote off Amandil. It's what he would have wanted. Those years being 'wormtongue' to Ar-Pharazon have taken their toll, as well....

++AMANDIL

[JennyHallu]

++Orophir, because 'e's 'orrible.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I imagine it won't be long before my campaign spawns a tribe of Erendis fanboys.

I thought of another reason to dislike her: poor parenting. She could never make the sacrifice could she? If her child could be happy only at the cost of her putting in a little effort, then she wasn't gonna do it, dammit! And it's not just the personal effects; think of the responsibility to her country. And she had no interest in leading. Utterly unworthy of being Queen.

Selfish, selfish, selfish. So unlikeable.

++ERENDIS

[Anguirel]

Hmmm. Lalaith interests me.

We can't keep any Aman-loving lickspittles here, certainly...

--SAURON, ++AMANDIL

[The Saucepan Man]

The Alliance of Ultra-DOOM is pleased to announce, for the edification and enlightenment of all, the following principles of its conduct and actions, most particularly as there currently appears to be a great deal of misunderstanding in this regard, some of it no doubt intentional.

The Alliance is not controlled by any one person, but is rather a cooperative venture of free thinking but like-minded members.

The Alliance is not anti-Elf.

The Alliance is not pro-Bad Guys.

The Alliance does, however, wish to challenge the assumptions made by certain members that being an Elf and/or a King and/or male, should automatically earn a contestant a free pass to the final/winners' podium.

The Alliance has no favoured candidate, but merely wishes to see a balanced contest with all contestants given a fair chance, and perhaps have a little fun challenging those who would seek to take control of the show along the way by bringing a modicum of chaos and unpredictability to the proceedings.

Thank you for your attention.

~The Alliance of ULTRA-Doom~

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

Stop the ring madness before it begins.

You gotta' nip it in the bud, Andy!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Lhuna

I'm sorry dancing spawn, but I am left far too devastated by Ereinion's death to even bother about Celeborn

Well, that makes two of us now.


Hmm, who's this Orophir? A long lost twin of Oropher, or perhaps some distant relative of Orophin?

In any case, it is not time to vote for him today.

You know, there are some people who can make a comeback gracefully. Then there are those who just don't seem to realize when their time in the limelight is over. I'm speaking, of course, of Elrond. He wasn't a success during the previous seasons, and although they say that one should never give up, if he never wins and never gives up, that's plain folly.

To be fair, let's take a look if he did anything special during the Second Age that would stand out in his favour.

Firstly, he did some fighting. Whether violence is a way to solve conflicts, that's another question, but was there something special in that? Come on, it was the Second Age, who wouldn't have been in a battle or two? Secondly, he founded Rivendell. Well, I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, a little bling bling like Vilya and anyone could have done that. Besides, I have my doubts of his motives. Tra-la-la-lally?


The "Caveman" is not going to make it till the end anyway, so let us give the first timers a chance and get rid of those who have already proved their inadequacy to become a survivor.


++ELROND

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

Tra-la-la-lally?

Ooh yes, I had forgotten the Tra-la-la-lallies. Now that's tempting. But then, so is Celebrimbor and his Ring-based larks. And Amandil too, with his ill-conceived voyage West.

Hmm, tempting choices all ...

[The Saucepan Man]

I have decided to propose an alternative candidate.

Imagine the scene. Cirdan the Shipwright is sat with his feet up by the fire in his house in Alqualondë, his great-great-great-great-grandchildren on his knee.

“Great-great-great-great-grandsire, what did you do in the First Age?”

“Looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Second Age?”

“Er - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Third Age?”

“Um - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles …”

*silence*

“Oh, and I gave Olorin a Ring of Power.”

“Cool. Why?”

“So I didn’t have to get involved.”

“Oh! Anything else?”

“Yes. I grew a beard.”

“And what did you do in the Fourth Age?”

“Finished looking after the harbour, built a ship, sailed West.”

“Man, great-great-great-great-grandsire, you’re a loser.”

+ + CIRDAN

And before anyone starts shouting "Elf-Hater"", the Sindar remain one of the two strongest tribes. I would like to even things out and my heart has been moved by the strong feelings that many have shown for Celeborn. Indeed, I find it within mysef to feel a little sympathy for the poor emasculated, hen-pecked fellow.

[JennyHallu]

OOohh...excellent point...and you used my word to describe Celeborn...

SO...

--Orophir
++Cirdan

I'll go back to voting off people with funny sounding names tomorrow. I started a lovely trend with the desert camel...

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

“Great-great-great-great-grandsire, what did you do in the First Age?”

“Looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Second Age?”

“Er - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Third Age?”

“Um - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles …”

*silence*

“Oh, and I gave Olorin a Ring of Power.”

“Cool. Why?”

“So I didn’t have to get involved.”

“Oh! Anything else?”

“Yes. I grew a beard.”

“And what did you do in the Fourth Age?”

“Finished looking after the harbour, built a ship, sailed West.”

“Man, great-great-great-great-grandsire, you’re a loser.”

Well, when you put it like that; but then, this is slightly more accurate...


“Great-great-great-great-grandsire, what did you do in the First Age?”

"Refused a command by the Valar to go and get cuddled, maintained a realm despite everything, saved the young High King of the Noldor, and protected a Silmaril."

"Ooo. What about the Second Age?"

"Spotted that the apparently helpful Maia wandering around was the Dark Lord in disguise, rescued loads of doomed Elves, saved an Elven Ring, defeated Sauron with my pals and adviced Isildur not to take the One Ring, then said I told you so."

"Ooo. By the Third, you're pretty old; you must've retired? Did Elrond give you a pension?"

"As it happens, shrimp, no, he did not. I gave my Elven Ring to exactly the right person out of a choice of five; all the other four turned out to be flakes, hippies and capitalists. Then I saved a Palantir, tried to rescue a King of Arnor, helped beat the Witch King, was one of the Wise, overthrew Dol Guldur, sent a monkey to the Council of Elrond, provided solace for Elves everywhere, that kind of thing..."

"Hang on, Great-great-great-great-grandsire, you're exaggerating, I don't believe you..."

[JennyHallu]

He sent a monkey to the council of Elrond? And Elrond let the monkey attend???

For that, he should live and Elrond should go away.

--Cirdan
++Elrond

(Can anyone tell I'm feeling indecisive today?)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Well, when you put it like that; but then, this is slightly more accurate...

Hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good story ...

And much of your account is, in fact, either conjecture or exaggeration. Mostly, he just stayed put safe in his harbour.

And, even putting the best spin on his life, as you have done, he can hardly be described as an Elf of great action. Not at all like those sons of Feanor that you so adore ...

[Mithalwen]

For I find myself in agreement with the Saucepan Man, a rare occurence which happens only when obscure planets are in alignment. HE may have silver hair and pointy ears but I hate sailors (yotties not RN) and beards with a passion so:

++Cirdan

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

For I find myself in agreement with the Saucepan Man, a rare occurence which happens only when obscure planets are in alignment.

Zounds! If you're not careful, you'll end up flying the St George Cross from your car this summer.

[Mithalwen]

..not even for Coronation day or the Queen's official Birthday ...... certainly not for a bunch of men kicking an inflated pig's bladder around a field... - an exploding pig's bladder maybe..but then that would be alternative comedy not sport.

[the phantom]

All right. So, what's happened so far today?

Lhuna made a sensible vote for the little known Oropher.

JennyHallu wisely added her Oropher vote, but more recently she changed her vote to Elrond because of a monkey which did not actually exist. I'm not too impressed with Jenny right now.

Lalaith came forward and made a good argument for Amandil, and Anguirel considered her argument and voted with her. A pat on the back for the both of them for making a good pick.

Eomer continued voting for Erendis. Erendis certainly needs to be ousted at some point, but for some reason I, nor anyone else, seems to be interested in doing it now.

Then The Saucepan Man stepped in and claimed that he wan't anti-elf, and then proceeded to vote for an elf. Seven of his ten votes this game have been for elves, and the three that weren't for elves were for Numenorian Kings with elf-blood running through their veins. Sure... SPM isn't anti-elf.

That being said, SP's choice of Cirdan isn't a terribly bad selection, and I don't blame Mithalwen for siding with him.

Tuor comes along and votes for Celebrimbor, in an effort to stop the whole Ring thing. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the Rings will still happen so long as there are other elven-smiths in Hollin as well as Sauron. If we kill Celebrimbor, the three powerful elven rings won't get made, and thus Lothlorien and Rivendell will be diminished. And also, don't forget that Gandalf took one of the rings, a ring to help support him in his weariness and help him kindle people's hearts, and without that ring he probably would not have been successful. So, if you want Sauron guaranteed a Third Age victory, go right on ahead and get rid of Celebrimbor.

Next, we have Dancing Spawn come along and cast her vote for Elrond, proving that she is much prettier than she is intelligent. Her reasoning is that Elrond wasn't a success in a previous season of Survivor. What kind of non-reason is that? And then she gives another reason- that anyone could have founded Rivendell with the power of Vilya. There, she is showing her stupidity. Elrond did not have Vilya when he founded Rivendell. At that time, Vilya was still with Gil-galad.

[JennyHallu]

Agh! The Phantom isn't impressed with me! What shall I do?

What shall I do? I shall go straight back to voting for people on the basis of their names.

++the phantom

We're all dead, what makes him THE phantom? Isn't he just A phantom?

And...

--Elrond, ++Orophir, because 'e's 'orrible. Sorry, Ang, I will not be able to take the anti-monkey platform today, as A phantom has pointed out that monkeys don't exist.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hello TP (or is it AP), how nice to see you here. Charming as ever, I see.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Seven of his ten votes this game have been for elves, and the three that weren't for elves were for Numenorian Kings with elf-blood running through their veins.

Hmm, I wonder how that could be. Perhaps because a third of the original contestants were Elves and most of the rest were Numenorean Kings ...

[the phantom]

what makes him THE phantom? Isn't he just A phantom?

If you haven't noticed, I am intelligent and have a good sense of humor. You see, I am the model of a phantom, the phantom by which all other phantoms are judged. Sort of like all basketball stars are compared to the great Michael Jordan.

By changing your vote to Oropher, Jenny, you have increased your phantomicity. Keep up the good work.

Originally Posted by Sauce

Charming as ever, I see.

Yes, yes, I'm always so kind and subtle when arguing, aren't I?

You might find me more agreeable if all the participants on this thread were more logical.

Perhaps because a third of the original contestants were Elves

So, because 33% were elves, you voted for them 70% of the time?

and most of the rest were Numenorean Kings

And, because most of the rest were Numenorean Kings, you voted for them every time you weren't voting for an elf?

I'm sorry, Sauce, but I won't be fully convinced that you aren't anti-elf until I see you vote for one of the Other Speakers, or a man without elf blood.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Next, we have Dancing Spawn come along and cast her vote for Elrond, proving that she is much prettier than she is intelligent. Her reasoning is that Elrond wasn't a success in a previous season of Survivor. What kind of non-reason is that? And then she gives another reason- that anyone could have founded Rivendell with the power of Vilya. There, she is showing her stupidity. Elrond did not have Vilya when he founded Rivendell. At that time, Vilya was still with Gil-galad.

Really now? You just know how to compliment a girl, don't you?

Interesting that you should pick me to accuse of having insufficient reasons to vote for Elrond when just yesterday there was a bunch of people throwing their votes around because of the word 'camel'. I don't remember you expressing your disapproval to see people voting Khamûl based on that, and yet today you say that you are disappointed with JennyHallu. Her vote for Elrond was just as good as any of those that were cast for Khamûl.

However, I shall forgive you speaking rashly because for some reason you seem to be attached to Elrond and your feelings are clearly slowing your thoughts. If I may quote the Encyclopedia of Arda:

It [Vilya] was originally held by Gil-galad, but he passed it to Elrond at the time of the founding of Rivendell.

As to the 'non-reason', I said that Elrond wasn't great in the last shows, and then I took a look at his doings in the 2nd Age. My conclusion was: nothing special this time either. When you add that to the list, I don't see why to keep him around.

[JennyHallu]

Ineresting that you should pick me to accuse of having insufficient reasons to vote for Elrond when just yesterday there was a bunch of people throwing their votes around because of the word 'camel'. I don't remember you expressing your disapproval to see people voting Khamûl based on that, and yet today you say that you are disappointed with JennyHallu. Her vote for Elrond was just as good as any of those that were cast for Khamûl.

Why yes it was...if you look back, you will find that I started that particular bandwaggon...I am quite inordinately proud of it. First bandwaggon I ever started that actually managed to accumulate passengers.

No one who lives in a desert should 'ave a name that looks like "camel". Delightful, but far too obvious.

I'm only voting for Orophir because his name makes me start dropping H's right and left. So there, One of Many Equally Renowned Phantoms!

EDIT: And can I send my non-existant council-monkey to sit on your back?

[Anguirel]

Jenny, I don't want to be proprietorial, but actually I started the Camel-Khamul campaign the day before...

Great minds thinking alike?

Oh and it's my monkey, it exists, it's canon and it's called Galdor of the Havens...

[JennyHallu]

Drat. You're right. And I've always thought great minds thought differently (thus the potential for greatness).

And the monkey thing...

You have a pet werewolf (Hi!). So why can't I have the Elven-Counsel-Monkey?

And I meant to ask you...can you make paavo come clean my room?



Sorry...it's Friday...this is what passes for intellectualism for me, on Fridays.

[Anguirel]

Because both the pet werewolf (hi there!) and Galdor the Elf-Monkey are about to play a crucial role in helping with the Hunt for Amanda...

[JennyHallu]

What's the 'Unt for Amanda, and what was your answer on the room-cleaning?

As for Horophir...

I should probably look up who 'e is, shouldn't I?

All this WORK. Always more WORK. Is this learning schtuff a Barrow-Downs conspiracy?

According to some sources, the father of Thranduil and grandfather of Legolas, who ruled a great realm of Silvan Elves in Greenwood the Great (later to be called Mirkwood). He went to the War of the Last Alliance, where he was slain with two-thirds of his army, but his son Thranduil survived and returned to rule his father's woodland kingdom.

So 'e was a king, and 'e 'ad a son, and then 'e took all 'is warriors and got 'em killed, and then...oh wait, that's it.

Yup. Dropping H's. Perfectly good reason to vote for the cheeze.

[the phantom]

Really now? You just know how to compliment a girl, don't you?

I try.

when just yesterday there was a bunch of people throwing their votes around because of the word 'camel'

You'll notice I never used that reasoning myself. I thought it was senseless, but seeing as they were voting a way that didn't bother me I didn't see the need to say anything. Got it?

And, wow, you actually looked up Vilya in the Encyclopedia of Arda? I honestly didn't think you had thought this thing through that much. I suppose I should give you some credit for that, though your information is wrong. According to the appendix in LOTR, Gil-galad "before he died gave his ring to Elrond". But Rivendell was founded in 1697, nearly 1,800 years before Gil-galad's death.

Also, Rivendell was founded only four years after the three Elven Rings were hidden, and we know Vilya was originally given to Gil-galad.

Not to mention the fact that Rivendell was founded while SAURON HAD HIS RING! During that time, the elves DIDN'T USE THEIR RINGS. So even if Elrond somehow had Vilya in his possesion during that time, he didn't use it.

So, no- Elrond did not use Vilya to found Rivendell, no matter what your precious encyclopedia may say.

I think you should be willing to change your vote just out of respect for the facts I've brought up. And if not for that reason, you should change your vote because it pains me to see someone so beautiful make such an ugly decision.

*hopes flattery will work*

[JennyHallu]

I think we should petition Arda for a fix. I need EoA! It is my lifesaver when I dig myself into holes in Books discussions!

And, Unique (like all the rest of us) Phantom, I think we should vote to irritate you just for proving it wrong!

--Horopher who did...um...nothing

++Elrond who listens to Monkey-Advice