Password

[Galadriel55]

Ugh, I'm so stupid. Nuneth. I think I tried to make NUN fit for another recent password, and for some reason I guess I thought I've tried that path here as well.

Good work on Erendis, HS!

[Pervinca Took]

Indeed! NUN for the secluded lady, plus the Old English letter ETH, gives us NUNETH.

E: Lady born where three ways meet, however tortuously.
Rose: She certainly troubled Cupid’s counterpart!
E: Wells girl found a way, through confusion, to reveal her.
Nuneth: Secluded lady? Ancient letter reveals her.
D: Eva’s epesse? For her, the simile has not grown stale.
Idril: Sounds like a utopic time for her.
Sinatra (Artanis): Noble lady runs back for Ol’ Blue Eyes.

P.S. You are definitely NOT stupid!

[Galadriel55]

Okay, some thoughts out loud in case someone gets inspiration. I am thinking that the 3 ways in #1 are 3 letters of E S N W R L, which are direction letters. E is first, obviously. Don't know what to do with tortuously - it sounds like it's an anagram indicator, but if I'm right about the three ways there's nothing to mix. Maybe they are mixed with "born".

Elwing?

[Pervinca Took]

You are right about ways, born and tortuously.

It isn't Elwing, though.

Or rather, you are *nearly* right about born. When you're fully right, there will be something more promising to mix the ways with.

[Huinesoron]

#1: If it's not 'born', how about 'birth'? That gives a very promising -th ending, though the obvious letter to put in front of it would be E, which is already used at the start. (This line of thinking is pointing me at 'Elbereth', though that doesn't even have the I - it would be extremely tortuous.)

... I've just spent five minutes staring at the direction letters and gotten nowhere. Anagrams aren't my thing.

Is it possible that the theme is mothers? All five names are, and at least three were mothers to people more famous than them (Earendil, Erendis, and Tar-Ancalime). That would rule out Elbereth for #1. I want to do something with Emeldir, but while she has the E-L-R for directions, I can't turn 'medi' into a word to do with birth. (Demi? Mide? Dime? Diem! No.)

Eowyn is a mother, but taking away her directions just leaves 'yo'. Earwen also comes to mind, but she'd be left with 'are', which isn't any more useful. (Morwen) Eledhwen/Elfsheen would also fit, but nothing helpful jumps out from 'ledhe' or 'lfhee'. ... no, I don't think I can make a guess for #1 (other than Elbereth right off the bat).

I will, however, throw out a hasty guess at Dernhelm for #5; it is indeed an epesse for a mother, though I can't get it to fit the rest (possibly because I keep getting stuck on Eva == Evita, which I think is a blind alley).

(I am ashamed to admit I had to look up who Nuneth is; it's been a while since I needed to do that for a Legendarium character!)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

(I am ashamed to admit I had to look up who Nuneth is; it's been a while since I needed to do that for a Legendarium character!)

I have been shamelessly consulting the Enc. of Arda for the last few years when it comes to riddles and passwords.

[Pervinca Took]

Huinesoron, you are very close on the theme, but not *quite* there.

In the UK, we have a word for born which is actually French, but is used on things like forms for when a woman has just filled in her married name, telling her where to write her birth surname. At least, it used to be. (It might just say 'any previous names' now).

I think I first came across this word for 'born' as the answer to a crossword clue.

[Pervinca Took]

Dernhelm and Elbereth are both wrong, I'm afraid.

I didn't know who Nuneth was until just recently, when I read 'Unfinished Tales' *properly.* (I skipped bits when I was younger).

I've added a word to the D clue, which should make it much easier. Probably very easy if you went to school in the UK, but still googleably easy if you didn't.

E: Lady born where three ways meet, however tortuously.
Rose: She certainly troubled Cupid’s counterpart!
E: Wells girl found a way, through confusion, to reveal her.
Nuneth: Secluded lady? Ancient letter reveals her.
D: Eva Smith's epesse? For her, the simile has not grown stale.
Idril: Sounds like a utopic time for her.
Sinatra (Artanis): Noble lady runs back for Ol’ Blue Eyes.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so the word you're looking for is probably 'nee', with or without the accent. To which we want to add three direction letters, while still starting with E... Elenwe, mother of Idril (with Left, West, and East)?

Which points at a theme of 'Mother-daughter pairs' (which also makes sense with your comment about the order they appeared in). We have Nuneth>Erendis and now Elenwe>Idril. So...

We clearly went to quite different schools; I never studied An Inspector Calls, so yeah, I had to google that. (I did watch the adaptation a couple of years back, though, and my sibling did it at school.) But Daisy Gardner is Sam and Rosie's daughter, and fits for #5. I don't get the 'stale' part, though. A daisy is a Day's Eye, which is definitely a simile, but 'stale'?

And, well, process of deduction says #3 should be Earwen, Artanis' mother, but other than 'well=water=sea' making for an extremely rough translation of her name, I can't make her fit the clue.

This is seriously stretching my brain... how am I doing?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Good work!

It's always a good idea to check whether my password puzzles have an odd number of clues. If they do, the theme might be pairs of some kind (with the password completing one of the pairs). The theme of this one is indeed mothers and daughters (my last one was couples; Morsul the Dark did a 'namesake pairs' one not that long back, which probably gave me the idea).

I didn't study 'An Inspector Calls' at school either, but most of my friends' kids seem to. It probably came in with GCSE's. I remember a TV version of it in the early 80's, though, and hearing something like 'Did you know Eva Smith, or Daisy Renton?' [the name Eva Smith took for herself later on in her story].

'Day's eye' is a metaphor. In fact, probably a kenning?

The simile I was referring to was the well-known 'As fresh as a daisy.' (Hence 'not stale').

'Wells girl' meant female H G Wells character. From memory I can only think of three. In 'The War Of The Worlds' there are Carrie and Beth, but the one I was looking for was WEENA from 'The Time Machine' (add the directional R and 'confuse' it all for Earwen).

It was quite difficult to find mothers and daughters who would actually fit into a password; hence I had to put one of them in backwards.

Elenwe: Lady born where three ways meet, however tortuously.
Rose: She certainly troubled Cupid’s counterpart!
Earwen: Wells girl found a way, through confusion, to reveal her.
Nuneth: Secluded lady? Ancient letter reveals her.
Daisy: Eva Smith's epesse? For her, the simile has not grown stale.
Idril: Sounds like a utopic time for her.
Sinatra (Artanis): Noble lady runs back for Ol’ Blue Eyes.

[THEME: MOTHERS & DAUGHTERS]

Huinesoron, I think it was you who guessed the password? In which case, over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Oh, Weena the Eloi! It's been far too long since I read that.

I'm afraid I'll have to pass on creating one; as my attempts here have shown, I'm terrible at interpreting crossword clues, and creating them would be even harder. Perhaps next time, if I ever manage to guess one again.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Nerwen and Galadriel, you each guessed two clues. Would either of you like to post the next password?

If you don't have time, I have some already prepared, including two quite silly ones that are not so hard as the last.

Huinesoron, don't be so hard on yourself! If anything, you were being too intelligent for the answers, by overthinking the clues. We've all been in that position; it's only easy when you know/wrote the answer and clue.

Don't be daunted by thinking you need to provide a theme as well as a password. That's only a recent thing. You don't have to provide a theme as well.

[Galadriel55]

I will pass on making the password. I will not be able to come up with anything worthwhile in the next few days.

Hui - maybe you should give it a go! Passwords have very few set rules, and each one of us has a different style of making the clues. If you scroll back to look at past examples in the last few months, you'll notice Squatter's passwords tend to be pure classic cryptic clues, while Morsul's tend to be more "straight clue heavy". There is no set rule for how you make the clues.

[Pervinca Took]

In fact, password clues do not even have to be cryptic. We just tend to write them that way.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Hui - maybe you should give it a go! Passwords have very few set rules, and each one of us has a different style of making the clues. If you scroll back to look at past examples in the last few months, you'll notice Squatter's passwords tend to be pure classic cryptic clues, while Morsul's tend to be more "straight clue heavy". There is no set rule for how you make the clues.

Hmm... I'll give it a stab, then. I've got something half assembled; we'll see if the rest comes together.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Okay. I've definitely gone more 'riddle' than 'cryptic' here, though that's not to say there isn't some cryptic crossword chicanery in here. There is a theme, too.

(It's probably polite to mention that a couple of the answers are multiple words long; they're still taken straight from Tolkien, though.)

1. Before the blackness, seek their doom.
2. The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?
3. An elder claimed this eldest title, and sought the eldest's crown, but the eldest's servant ended him.
4. Here ended the endless; what did the makers make it?
5. Seven times named, but twice unnamed; what name is mine but never was?
6. A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.
7. Fall back, o masked one, and let the French striplings take the field.

So, um... good luck!

hS

[Pervinca Took]

3. An unconfident suggestion: Feanor claimed the title of High King of the Noldor, but was ended by a servant of the eldest Ainu.

6. Feanor was originally called Finwe, after his father (Curufinwe apparently came later as a name).

[Huinesoron]

Sadly neither suggestion is correct. I will mention that #3 is in strict chronological order, and that #6 is a touch on the cryptic side (and isn't looking for a name, as such).

[Pervinca Took]

4. The Endless Stair ended at Zirak-Zigil/Celebdil. The dwarves of Moria made it, and they made it winding/spiral.

[Huinesoron]

1. Before the blackness, seek their doom.
2. The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?
3. An elder claimed this eldest title, and sought the eldest's crown, but the eldest's servant ended him.
Zirak-Zigil - Here ended the endless; what did the makers make it?
5. Seven times named, but twice unnamed; what name is mine but never was?
6. A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.
7. Fall back, o masked one, and let the French striplings take the field.

It would've been 'what did the makers name it', but I had the word 'name' in the next two clues, plus I couldn't resist the repeated word-use.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is the password KHUZDUL, with a theme of dwarves/dwarf-related things?

[Pervinca Took]

And DURIN for 5, although I'm not sure about twice unnamed/mine but never was. Were we only told about 5 of the Durins, because the last two were yet to come?

[Huinesoron]

K - Before the blackness, seek their doom.
H - The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?
U - An elder claimed this eldest title, and sought the eldest's crown, but the eldest's servant ended him.
Zirak-Zigil - Here ended the endless; what did the makers make it?
Durin - Seven times named, but twice unnamed; what name is mine but never was?
U - A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.
L - Fall back, o masked one, and let the French striplings take the field.

That was impressively quick! I guess there aren't all that many words with a Z in the middle...

The theme is actually a bit more specific than you suggest; I'll let you keep working on that.

For Durin - there are seven Durins, but we don't know either their Khuzdul names, nor their 'actual' Middle-earth names - 'Durin' is Old Norse, not Old Westron. So they were 'unnamed' twice, and the name they actually have was never 'really' used.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I wonder if one of the U's could be 'Under the Mountain.' I'm leaning towards it being the second one, (not that it is probably either!)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I wonder if one of the U's could be 'Under the Mountain.' I'm leaning towards it being the second one, (not that it is probably either!)

Alas, no, though one of them has a certain resonance with it.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

The K clue ... Khazad-dum I believe meant dwarf mansion (a place of splendour), but was doomed to become Moria, which I believe means darkness/blackness.

[Huinesoron]

Khazad-dum - Before the blackness, seek their doom.
H - The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?
U - An elder claimed this eldest title, and sought the eldest's crown, but the eldest's servant ended him.
Zirak-Zigil - Here ended the endless; what did the makers make it?
Durin - Seven times named, but twice unnamed; what name is mine but never was?
U - A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.
L - Fall back, o masked one, and let the French striplings take the field.

Khazad-dum it is, which was not only doomed, it also includes a word phonetically very similar to 'doom'. (And Moria is the Black Pit, of course - much to the chagrin of Durin after Celebrimbor engraved it on his doors.)

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Wondering if the first U could be Uzbad Khazaddum. I was looking through the U's on Tolkien Gateway, and this is apparently 'Lord of Moria' in Khuzdul, from the runes on Balin's tomb.

Balin was an old dwarf, I believe, and assumed the title some of the Durins had - the sixth, I think, being killed by a Balrog (servant of the first Dark Lord and eldest Ainu).

[Huinesoron]

Khazad-dum - Before the blackness, seek their doom.
H - The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?
Uzbad Khazaddumu - An elder claimed this eldest title, and sought the eldest's crown, but the eldest's servant ended him.
Zirak-Zigil - Here ended the endless; what did the makers make it?
Durin - Seven times named, but twice unnamed; what name is mine but never was?
U - A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.
L - Fall back, o masked one, and let the French striplings take the field.

Exactly right on Balin, and when he was killed (shot by an orc, I believe, who was definitely a servant of one Ainu or another) he eas looking into Mirrormere - at Durin's Crown.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Could H be Hollin? There seems to be a Moria connection to the clues, and Hollin was close by, and I think the name is connected with holly.

[Huinesoron]

I like your thinking, but I'm afraid not.

hS

[Nerwen]

Well, I'm back, she said.

Congratulations on guessing the last one, Huinesoron. A question- is it significant that the password is KHUZDUL rather than KHAZÂD?

[Nerwen]

What about AZAGHÂL (backwards) for the last one?

[Huinesoron]

Khazad-dum - Before the blackness, seek their doom.
H - The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?
Uzbad Khazaddumu - An elder claimed this eldest title, and sought the eldest's crown, but the eldest's servant ended him.
Zirak-Zigil - Here ended the endless; what did the makers make it?
Durin - Seven times named, but twice unnamed; what name is mine but never was?
U - A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.
Lahgaza [Agazhal] - Fall back, o masked one, and let the French striplings take the field.

[Theme: Khuzdul]

Yes and yes, and I'm going to take that as close enough to a theme guess to count. 'Durin' is the only outlier, standing in for a Khuzdul name we simply don't have; all of the others are directly tied to the language.

And I sincerely apologise for La Gaza.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Understand La for French 'the,' but could you explain Gaza?

(I was trying to construct something from le/la + lad).

Was Azarghal masked at some point?

[Huinesoron]

One of the two parts of the Palestinian Territories is the Gaza Strip. Since I felt that 'French strippers' was probably inappropriate, striplings it was.

I'm pretty sure it was Azaghal's dwarves who resisted Glaurung by virtue of their iron masks; poetic license says their king probably had one too.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Ah, I see. I knew about the Gaza strip. Just thought it must be a synonym of stripling/lad that we were looking for.

Can't find anything in Khuzdul to fit the remainng clues, and very little of it at all beginning with U or H.

There is HAZAD, meaning seven, but it's nothing to do with a branch or a gift. Except that seven rings were gifted to the dwarves.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Ah, I see. I knew about the Gaza strip. Just thought it must be a synonym of stripling/lad that we were looking for.

Can't find anything in Khuzdul to fit the remainng clues, and very little of it at all beginning with U or H.

There is HAZAD, meaning seven, but it's nothing go do with a branch or a gift. Except that seven rings were gifted to the dwarves.

And dwarven culture doesn't feature plants very much, so- what meaning does it hold? Curious...

[Pervinca Took]

Unless it's the trees carved on the door of Moria. I think they bear crescent moons (because I can hear Ian Holm's Frodo saying so in my head).

[Huinesoron]

Clues, clues, clues...

H - The slender bough bears a unique gift, but what meaning does it hold?

-Neither the 'slender bough' nor the 'meaning' are in Khuzdul, and most of the time neither is the 'gift'.
-It may help to consider synonyms.

U - A son full-grown bears his father's name in full.

-The answer is not a full Khuzdul word, but the meaning is extremely clear from context.
-The clue tells you exactly where to find the answer.

hS