Tol-in-Gaurhoth Threefold and Six: The Night Guard

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Hakon

Eönwë said that if it was a ranger save it would be clear in the narration.

I think he meant the last Night of the game, dear, not necessarily last Night.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It could have been hard to kill me later, like I said in some of my first posts this afternoon (I think it was my first after I returned), because the Ranger and the NG could take switches in guarding me, if I was a known innocent and the village decided that I am valuable enough.

And if I were the Ranger, I would have probably said so by now.

Heh. I was kidding about the ranger thing, of course; that would be rotten luck though. And fair enough, but if the ranger is forced out, what then? (I'm hoping it won't happen, but if the ranger is out....well, no offense dear, but if you're innocent you're dispensible compared to them.)

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

=> A SLIP!!!!????

She corrected it, but she wrote it nevertheless. "I'd almost rather try to guard the fourth wolf (if in fact it isn't Legate)". Well, Freudian slip? You know that you SHOULD write that you are not certain if I am a Wolf or not, because it's not known yet, but you write it as if assuming that I am actually NOT! As if assuming that after dusk it will became known that there are still four of them! Why???

Nice try, lovely, but no. I'm just leaving in the possibility that you may not be a wolf and thus we'll have to worry about the real fourth baddie. You know, you really do want to twist my words, don't you? Nassssty boy....


EDIT: x'd with Boro and Lommie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Heh, interesting. Has no one really thought of the ranger saving us the last Night?

Well, were you an innocent Legate you'd have thought about it. So were you afraid of stating it as it would seem like a desperate move on your side? I mean the chances of a ranger-save this early in this big village sure are minuscule - but that is a chance anyway and as an innocent you could have tried us to think about it as well? But as a wolf you passed it?

As noted above, it was announced a loooong time ago that Ranger save will be mentioned. Yesterday, I believe it was sally who asked about it.

But anyway. Kudos for your brave effort - and by times you made me waver with my judgement. But anyway it looks like you focus on things that do not look like you're honestly defending your innocent self but are trying something else.

If you are innocent (of which I am not very sure right now), you will be appreciating my brave effort a lot more if I die, I guess, but a bit too late at least from my point of view.

You make a big point how it would be disadvantageous to us to robotically lynch all the "protected" while the wolves would restrain their kills... sure. And then you kind of add that well, of course we might not do that - which is so true. But at the same time the whole argument you elaborated in long posts to defend you collapses.

And what should I do? Lie? Or say that the village indeed is a group of robots? (At least people like you - if you are not a Wolf - now ARE. Sorry.)

Also your argument about the wolves controlling the village are a bit far-fetched. We get "known innocents" only so far when there are two Night kills eg. four wolves.

And you mean i.e. once again. (That's what you get for accusing me Hm, I am actually being nice...)

And even that knowledge is shadowed by the possibility of a ranger-save or the wolves bluffing (not that I believe in the second one, it's just against any odds they would choose: too little gain from too much a cost).

Not on a Night when an innocent is protected. And certainly not on first Night when an innocent is protected. Surely a player as reasonable as you must see that.

Somehow I think I was pretty suspicious of you and even made some points for it - and consequently wished to see what would happen if you were actually Night-guarded... and voilá, there was just one kill!

Oh true, I forgot about that. Preparing grounds already for toDay, were you?

And anyway. It feels bad to lynch someone just because "we need to find it out" but that's exactly what I feel with you Legate. You're great to play with and looking at your defence one is once again affirming that you have the brains to make a difference, but now there is just too much at stake I'm afraid as getting the first wolf is of the essence for us. After that there will be only one kill per Night and everything will become a bit more less pressing. And sadly you seem to be our best bet now.

Oh, sadly. Too much is at stake. Getting the first Wolf as late as possible is necessary for the four of you, all sportmanship aside.

[satansaloser2005]

Actually, rereading Noggie's post, he did mean last Night as in last Night. Silly me.

[Nogrod]

I think Hakon speaks sense and we should think about other things toDay as well. And thank's for clarifying that narration-ruling I had missed.

Well first...

What Brinn said about Sally's actions at the end of Day1 I do find noteworthy - Sally's explanations notwithstanding. Hanging around minute by minute but not making even a short comment on her intentions is downright creepy - and lupine to me. It's interrsting that even if the wolves basically know that their leaning back around the DL just watching things happen and being careful not to make any possibly meddlesome moves is the most suspicious thing there is they still do it time and time again.

Not that I think Sally is a wolf for sure, but she has crawled quite high on my suspicions.

EDIT: X'd with a host to the previous page...

[Pitchwife]

Hi everybody, I'm back.
I must say, I like both sides of the discussion between wilwa and Legate. Both are trying to clarify the implications of the Night Guard thing, and their disagreeing with each other doesn't per se make either more guilty than the other.
I'm truly puzzled about Legate at the moment. As I said before, I found his #153 yesterday looking more innocentish than some of those before, and his arguments toDay are well reasoned, even if they happen to be in his own defense. There remains the one kill last Night when he was guarded. I can see the possibility of the wolves framing him - with the Seer dead, they may think they could afford losing one kill; and if he's innocent, he's attracting so much suspicion right now, detracting it from the wolves themselves, that they would be in no hurry to see him killed or lynched.
But that's all maybe; one way or another, we have to find out the truth. Suppose we Guard him one more night, would the wolves again be content with one kill?
That method would become useless, of course, if we happen to have the unbelievable luck of lynching a wolf toDay (instead of our Ranger or Hunter, or a plain ordo). It might be safer to lynch him toDay and lament him toMorrow, if he turns out to be innocent.

[satansaloser2005]

Legate, think of it this way. If you are innocent and we lynch you toDay, you'll help us figure out exactly how gutsy these wolves are (as in, they wasted a kill just to frame you). Personally I would be upset at being lynched as an ordo (as I'm sure most of us would be) but if it helped the village figure out the plans of the wolves I wouldn't argue so much. I understand you defending yourself but it seems off to me. If you're dying toDay and you're an innocent leave something more for the village than just self-defense.

Of course, if you're a wolf we'll dance over your grave and giggle like mad. Just in case you didn't see that one coming already.

[Hakon]

I have to go now. I will be back by deadline. Before I go I want to put in my lynch vote.

++Legate

I also want to say that I think Alona is lurking. I have nothing to back up this thought or anything that makes it seem true. It is just something that I thought of and I think that is the case. My guess is she will pop up before deadline and make her vote.

Pitchwife, you suggest guarding Legate again and to me it makes it sound like you want him to live. If Legate turns out to be a wolf it suggests that you are also a wolf.

[satansaloser2005]

Pitch, I assume you mean you think the ranger could guard him, right? Because we can't pick the same person two Days in a row.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

every guard vote with two kills is a seer dream shared by all the village (so it can't die with any single person).

Hear, hear!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But that's all maybe; one way or another, we have to find out the truth. Suppose we Guard him one more night, would the wolves again be content with one kill?

Well that was something I wanted to give as an option, but of course that's just an option, I can see what you don't like about that. Anyway, it will be interesting in any case to see what happens toNight and for the person guarded toNight - as you can't Guard me toNight, consequently. (The WWs could theoretically kill me if I stay alive, and if the Ranger doesn't protect me - which I would not recommend btw, as I am not really much sure if they would want to kill me - and if yes, then no worse than any other kill, and the Ranger can maximize the defending capabilities of the village.)

EDIT: I keep just x-ing all the way... next!

[A Little Green]

I'm sorry, thought I'd have more time and more energy, right now I'm fighting to keep my eyes open so I won't be around much longer. So, my promised list will not be coming toDay after all, it'll be there toMorrow though in case I'm still alive. A quick comment, though, just in case I'm not: if Legate turns out innocent, I think Nerwen and Sally might both deserve a closer look, Sally for what Legate pointed out and Nerwen for this:

Originally Posted by Nerwen (underlining mine)

Guard:

++Inziladun.

Because he jumped on my vote on Kit, and he's been creepy toDay. (I'm for Guarding suspicious people if there's no-one better, at least while there are still four wolves around.)

Still, the strongest case I have is

++ Legate

As for my guard vote, I'll go with my top suspect apart from Leggy:

++ guard Nogrod

Also because he's very valuable if innocent.

Good Night and sorry once more for lack of contribution toDay.


EDIT: x-ed since the beginning of this page

[satansaloser2005]

Lynch
Nilp-->Dun
Nerwen-->Legate
Boro-->Legate (2)
Hakon-->Legate (3)
Greenie-->Legate (4)


Guard
Nilp-->Wilwa
Nerwen-->Dun
Boro-->Nerwen
Greenie-->Nog


Wow. Somehow I thought there were more votes out than that. Anyway, a nap for me and then I'll be back.

EDIT: x'd since my last
EDIT#2: added in Greenie's vote

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Personally I would be upset at being lynched as an ordo (as I'm sure most of us would be) but if it helped the village figure out the plans of the wolves I wouldn't argue so much. I understand you defending yourself but it seems off to me.

In a sense I agree with Sally here. Well at least I tend to act the contrary when I see that the village is going after an innocent me for real. Then my thought is: "well, I'll show you what worth of an innocent you lynch" and then try to make my best to make considered judgements of all the players so that the others could look at them the next Day as "well intentioned" considerations - and sure lament the loss... And I don't think we are so different in that regard...

I mean I'm afraid your arguing is not going to change your status here. If someone else comes with good points on your behalf things might get different and make people reconsider. I'm looking forwards to anyone taking a stance in favour of Legate. And I mean it, no trap involved... I just started suspecting him already yesterDay and I'm quite stuck with suspecting him at the moment.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Legate, think of it this way. If you are innocent and we lynch you toDay, you'll help us figure out exactly how gutsy these wolves are (as in, they wasted a kill just to frame you). Personally I would be upset at being lynched as an ordo (as I'm sure most of us would be) but if it helped the village figure out the plans of the wolves I wouldn't argue so much. I understand you defending yourself but it seems off to me. If you're dying toDay and you're an innocent leave something more for the village than just self-defense.

Of course, if you're a wolf we'll dance over your grave and giggle like mad. Just in case you didn't see that one coming already.

Oh, having really bad conscience about framing me in such a nasty way, my dear sally? Don't worry, I don't take it as badly as it may perhaps seem.

But as for leaving something else for the village than self-defense, I hope I did, as that was actually my original point. Well, if I am lynched, it will be proven even with a practical example.

But it would be just better if you catch one, or more of these WWs fast.

And as for toDay's voting, are there some people willing to vote wilwa, or perhaps Nogrod, or somebody like that? (Boro and sally come to my mind, though it's not that hot.)

Brinn, whom are you going to vote? And on what grounds?

EDIT: x-ed after my last

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Pitch, I assume you mean you think the ranger could guard him, right? Because we can't pick the same person two Days in a row.

Sorry, forgot about that, thanks for reminding me. The Ranger shouldn't protect him, of course - that would merely prevent him being killed himself if innocent, not killing others if a wolf. So it would seem our only means to find out the truth is indeed to lynch him.

[satansaloser2005]

Legate regrets to inform you all that he will not be around for the remainder of the Day. He's gone fishing.


And if I was framing you yes, I might feel a bit bad. But since that's not the case I have no shame. And why are we playing talk tennis? You can't force me to make a 'wolf slip', dear Legate, because as you know I'm not a wolf.


Taking my nap now. Might analyze someone when I get back, I just don't know who yet.


EDIT: x'd with Pitch. Yeah, I momentarily wondered the same thing and then decided it'd be a waste anyway so not to bother. Also, I have 2,222 posts. This excites me!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

And if I was framing you yes, I might feel a bit bad. But since that's not the case I have no shame. And why are we playing talk tennis? You can't force me to make a 'wolf slip', dear Legate, because as you know I'm not a wolf.

That was a bit rude after all you said before. Suddenly turning 180° once we have clear conscience of a nassty frame and are being accused, are we?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That was a bit rude after all you said before. Suddenly turning 180° once we have clear conscience of a nassty frame and are being accused, are we?

All's fair in love and Werewolf.

And I'm not being accused of anything worth responding to (as in the accusations themselves, not you, dear) which is why I made the above statement. Hence, 'talk 'tennis'. Although I've always preferred ping pong.


Again, to bed with me. I'll be back shortly (I hope) and will analyze somebody, as well as not responding to Legate's attempts to bait me into making myself look suspicious.

[Thinlómien]

I don't think lynching Legate will prove anything. Whatever he is, wolves could have taken any stance in this debate and if he's innocent them leaving him alive doesn't prove anything either because at least in my opinion that doesn't even point at certain people.

But it looks like we don't have any better suspects either. One vote for Inzil, eh? There's something fishy about him (something I wanted to comment on but I forgot), but probably not quite enough to merit a vote.

Argh.

Well, I guess toDay can be analysed after it's over, and before that it will be difficult to say what stuff means. Although, like I said, Legate's death is hardly going to prove anything so we'll just have to look at people's general behaviour and theories.

I get the feeling I'm rambling a bit. And besides, not even making 100% sense. Legate's death will leave clues about his fellows (from day1 behaviour) or prove we're a silly bunch of lemmings.

I kind of feel like voting someone else and then blaming you others when Legate turns out innocent. Or then just saying "I did suspect him too but I didn't want to be a lemming" when he turns out guilty.

ARGH.

I confess, I'm tired and confused. And everybody's ignoring my point, which makes me suspect it either doesn't make any sense, I shouldn't have said it aloud or I'm surrounded by a pack of wolves and cobblers.

Off to voting and bed soon.


edit: xed with Legate and Sally

[Nogrod]

Well then Wilwa...

Now first of all I must confess that I feel bad making this kind of a suspicion but I think that I need to voice it.

She has been too good... (I know she's an intelligent person but her dedication to make soo accurate points has been just overwhelming toDay)

What I mean is that she made an elaborate argument - citations and all - arguing that the wolves thought Mnemo was the seer's dream. And it was a good case indeed. It was indeed so good a case it felt it had been thought of by some very thorough and intelligent wolves for the last 24 hours - ending up with killing Mnemo for exactly those reasons while we others slept.

And what bothers me there is that her argument tries to show that we did not only lose our seer but also her first dream was lost the last Night. So let's just forget about the chance that Kit might have tried to hint at someone being actually her first dreamed innocent (the one she protected could be an obvious hint on Day1 when she did not foresee she would be killed or scrutinised more than others fex.)?

Other than that Wilwa has been most considerate person and one if continuing like that would be a great asset to us if innocent. But somehow I can't believe for a moment both her and Legate are innocents. So if Legate turns out innocent for some reason I'd be looking at Wilwa the first thing toMorrow.

[Inziladun]

I have mixed feelings about the Legate affair. It does seem a bit too easy having him cold at this stage, and his self-defense in my eyes really has been admirable, but I really don't see any way to be sure of him than with his lynching.
Lommy makes a good point in that regardless of Legate's status, there could be wolves on any side of the argument, as this has been the main point of discussion here today with a lot said.

Not sure who to go for just yet.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't think lynching Legate will prove anything. Whatever he is, wolves could have taken any stance in this debate and if he's innocent them leaving him alive doesn't prove anything either because at least in my opinion that doesn't even point at certain people.

It will not prove anything in regards to pointing at other wolves for sure - but if he's a wolf it will take off the double-killing sword from the top of our heads...

I confess, I'm tired and confused. And everybody's ignoring my point, which makes me suspect it either doesn't make any sense, I shouldn't have said it aloud or I'm surrounded by a pack of wolves and cobblers.

If you mean that "wolves will happily kill just one every Night while they have chances at killing two" -theory I must disagree with it. I see the point of accumulating innocents - but then again they can harvest us two by Night and after there are two "known innocents" they can start bringing the numbers down (with a risk though) - and anyway; the chances that the ranger and all four wolves are alive on Day4 or something where this might start to bite is quite small.

And e en if we might try to follow a plan or a pattern of berhaviour you should know it rarely happens - some people do not have time to read the thread, some have RL problems and can't vote, some have independent minds and don't follow the others whatever the arguments... so any long-time plans are doomed to fail anyway. Or have you seen any that would have been succesful?

[Boromir88]

I also want to say that I think Alona is lurking. I have nothing to back up this thought or anything that makes it seem true. It is just something that I thought of and I think that is the case. My guess is she will pop up before deadline and make her vote.~Hakon

She won't, she's having serious laptop issues because of a nasty trojan and I don't think she'll be able to come back, which means it's up to the Mayor with what he wants to do.

What Brinn said about Sally's actions at the end of Day1 I do find noteworthy - Sally's explanations notwithstanding. Hanging around minute by minute but not making even a short comment on her intentions is downright creepy - and lupine to me.~Nogrod

I don't think so, it strikes me as a very sally thing to do. I don't know if it was really necessary to do it after every single vote, but I can tell you it was certainly nice as a mod to get the vote tallies as the DL was closing down, instead of scrolling through pages to gather all the votes while constantly checking the time and making sure the game closes on time.

[Thinlómien]

Mmmh.

Do what you will, lemmings, I'll go to sleep.

I'm not convinced of Legate's guilt like almost all you others seem to be, but then again, I guess you can't help lynching him and I have to admit that won't make me too sad even if he's innocent. Everybody would talk about him for the rest of the game anyway.

++Inziladun

Just because I like Nilp more than the rest of you. Speaking of which:

++guard Nilp

Good night! (And please, think about what I said about guard votes as seer dreams. It does make a lot of sense.)


edit: xed with Zil (who, ironically, started to look more innocent to me), Nogrod (whom I disagree with and who does not understand me - I never said we should follow any plan, I only said the wolves may be following one) and Boro (who doesn't give me any of the famous vibes yet...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And what bothers me there is that her argument tries to show that we did not only lose our seer but also her first dream was lost the last Night. So let's just forget about the chance that Kit might have tried to hint at someone being actually her first dreamed innocent (the one she protected could be an obvious hint on Day1 when she did not foresee she would be killed or scrutinised more than others fex.)?

That's actually a good point (both about the kind of covering, or missing the details about the dream, and the one about Kit possibly putting some significance to her guard-vote. She at least certainly seemed not to have had any suspect, though she may as well just have stayed put totally, but not sure about that). As you mentioned it now, I think it is worth thinking about for the future.

[McCaber]

Well, I'm back. And toDay has certainly been more interesting than I originally wanted. We have Legate arguing his innocence, and ... just about everyone but Legate wanting to lynch him.

Right now I'm not prepared to argue either way, but I'll stay connected and think about what this shows about the "everyone but Legate" crowd.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If you mean that "wolves will happily kill just one every Night while they have chances at killing two" -theory I must disagree with it. I see the point of accumulating innocents - but then again they can harvest us two by Night and after there are two "known innocents" they can start bringing the numbers down (with a risk though) - and anyway; the chances that the ranger and all four wolves are alive on Day4 or something where this might start to bite is quite small.

Or harvest us two by Night and Day together, with the result of having no known innocent at all.

Two night kills + one lynch at Day = 3 dead people, one of which may be a Wolf
One night kill + framed innocent lynch at Day = 2 dead people, none of which may be a Wolf.

(Like I mentioned already too many times.)

Anyway, the idea was what should we do NOW, the same as what the Wolves decided to do NOW. When the situation changes, we start to act differently too, I mean, that's a logic so obvious that it makes no sense even to mention it. Even a one-year old child acts according to that (or even a small molecular cell, for that matter).

Anyway... enough of that already. I am going to wait for a while yet and see. I may as well vote for guarding Nilp, too, or somebody who may be a Wolf, if there are many people voting him. And as for lynch, I guess I'll just really see.

[Nienna]

Sorry I've had to skim the last bunch of posts but I must be off to help pick out furniture before the shops close.

++Legate - for obvious reasons

++ guard Nerwen - because she is the only one so far who I trust even a little bit

[wilwarin538]

...
She has been too good... (I know she's an intelligent person but her dedication to make soo accurate points has been just overwhelming toDay)

What I mean is that she made an elaborate argument - citations and all - arguing that the wolves thought Mnemo was the seer's dream. And it was a good case indeed. It was indeed so good a case it felt it had been thought of by some very thorough and intelligent wolves for the last 24 hours - ending up with killing Mnemo for exactly those reasons while we others slept.

....

Other than that Wilwa has been most considerate person and one if continuing like that would be a great asset to us if innocent. But somehow I can't believe for a moment both her and Legate are innocents. So if Legate turns out innocent for some reason I'd be looking at Wilwa the first thing toMorrow.

Well. I have played a ton of WW games, like almost 20 I think. I almost always just post an average amount and contribute enough to not get suspicion (no matter my role), but not enough for my contribution to really stand out as being really useful. Now this may very well be my last game for a while (depending on what my school will be like when it starts next week). So I made a deal with myself that no matter what my role I would participate more then I ever have and try to be useful, instead of just floating casually through or not doing much at all.

This, I'm assuming, is why I'm getting suspicion. The whole analysing and contributing alot thing is a new move for me, so I'm not really used to it. If I was guilty I would not be doing this, because I have been bad many times and have always acted the same way as a baddie, and it's usually worked out extremely well for me. So I'm not gonna start changing something that's worked for me in the past.

And about the Kit analyses. I'll admit that I did start that a few hours before the Day started. I wanted to start off strong and wanted to be prepared incase I was still alive. Plus yesterday was my day off and I had absolutely nothing to do, so I figured this would be a good use of my time.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get all defensive, I just want it to be clear that all I'm trying to do is be helpful, cause in most games I haven't been overly useful, and I wanted this possible last game of mine to be different. Just not used to the whole useful thing, I'm usually just more occupied with trying to stay alive as long as possible.

Now, onto more important stuff.

Every time I re-read everything Legate says he makes more and more sense to me. I see the merit that his ideas have. I don't think they're as likely as some other possibilities, but I do really respect the work he's put into them. I do however still think that lynching him would get us further along, if he's guilty (which I think is more probable) then that's awesome, if he happens to be innocent then it provides us with a better idea of what sort of wolves we're dealing with, and we can try to figure out who would have been more likely to agree/come up with such a risky bluff. I'm seeing that the latter is more possible then I originally thought it was, but I don't think it's as likely, so I'm willing to take the risk. Besides, if we did lynch someone else instead we would just be back to wondering what to do with Legate tomorrow (not to mention we could accidently kill another gifted), and we wouldn't really have accomplished to much regarding that subject. So it's our best bet really, despite the risk.

Man, this is all starting to make me nervous. Everyone is just making so much sense, it's confusing.....

Gonna go make another list now....

x'ed since the Nog post I quoted

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Some list so that you have something to read toMorrow perhaps, if I am lynched.

A Little Green- not been around today much, so hard to say. I really had a bad feeling about her yesterDay, but can't say anything as for toDay
alonariel- not been around at all
Boromir88- somewhat makes me uneasy in the way how he overlookingly threw me among the Wolves. Because I know he is a sensible player normally. I would understand it if he tried to get me slip or something, innocent Boro tries baiting baddies and such, but he hasn't been trying to discuss with me, he just dumped me.
Brinniel- hard to say. Seemed okay yesterDay, toDay I was somewhat unsettled, but that was just a sort of feeling, nothing much more concrete. Like, she was a lot more "okay, whatever" than yesterDay - given that she was the one, I think, who yesterDay said first that she will guard me (?) I believe. She certainly seemed that she trusted me a lot yesterDay, but did not meddle much with the matter toDay. I would ask her about her opinion, by the way.
Hakon- 50-50. Could be either, in some way, seems innocent. By sort of gut feeling now, and also there may be the Kit thing, as noted by Nogrod. (Or both him and Nog are WWs, but that would be quite much chance accumulated to make it happen.) But can be either, really.
Inziladun- I am really letting others decide, because I have no particular idea.
McCaber- not very vocal, could be anything.
Nerwen- by first thought, I thought her innocent. If I started to think of that more after today, I could suspect her. It would be a bit like overcombinating it, but maybe not. Well whatever. Whenever she is a Wolf, she's a good one, so hard to say, really.
Nessa Telrunya- who is that? That exists?
Nienna- seems rather genuine, although a bit too eager to dump me, but then, who isn't.
Nilpaurion Felagund- reasonably seeming and okay.
Nogrod- well that's really hard. I mean, he just sounds so unreasonable and blinded by a few zealous ideas that I can't believe he's innocent. However he got better later, like that Kit thing I quoted lately. Or is it retaliation from too aggressive waters? No idea.
Pitchwife- erk. No real idea, seemed more like innocent to me for a long time though.
satansaloser2005- well, you saw our little interaction late toDay. She could be a Wolf, really. Could be.
Shastanis Althreduin- very silly to easily agree with lynching me, but again, everybody does that.
Thinlómien- probably innocent, unless I start overcombinating.
wilwarin538- probably guilty.

So some more real things?

Things that I dare to say my opinion on more than on 50, or maybe 60 or even 70%:

Lommy - innocent
Nilp - innocent
wilwa - guilty

hmm... almost 50%... nienna-innocent... it's dropping... boro guilty? hakon innocent? sally guilty? mccaber innocent? We are entering a realm of total speculation now. No more to tell. (And I really didn't forget anybody, I can't make as unambiguous or definite judgement on the rest.)

EDIT: x-ed with wilwa

[wilwarin538]

Suspicious
Legate: I suppose suspicious is technically the wrong word for him, it's more that he is a logical choice and that his death could answer some questions and clear up a few things (hopefully)
McCaber: mainly cause his vote yesterday bugged me, I wouldn't vote for him purely on this, I'm just keeping an eye out for him
Zil: his vote, and over all badness vibe coming from him, again will keep an eye out, and will concentrate a bit more on him tomorrow if I'm around

Innocentish, for now
Boro: seems honest and logical, haven't seen anything that I don't like, might vote to guard him
Nerwen: nothing bad standing out for me here, she seems very logical, might guard her
Nienna: really liking
Nogrod: will probably vote to guard him
Sally: seems goodish, not crazy confident about her, but I'm leaning more innocent
Shasta: seems good
Brinn: very comfortable with her

Unsure, for now anyway
Greenie: under the reindeer, atleast under mine, not sure why cause she has posted a lot, but I just don't feel anything either way
Alona: no posts yet
Hakon: nothing but "gut feelings" from him, so really there's not much to say, but he's probably innocent
Nessa: nothing from her yet
Nilp: always confuses me, hard to get a solid feeling either way from him
Pitch: I was fairly confident of him, but now it's more of an unsure feeling

I'm gonna vote for

++Legate

now, since I really don't see me changing my mind on that, even if I'm starting to get a bit uneasy about this, it still just seems the most logical choice. Will wait to cast my guard vote though for a bit.

Xposted with Legate

[Pitchwife]

Time to look at some other people, starting with my fellow Kit voters.
Sally - has been very active and helpful yesterDay and toDay, so I fail to see how her retiring to do tallies for the last hour makes her suspicious (actually, it makes me wonder about Brinn and Nog suspecting her for such a frail reason).
Inzil - if I remember correctly from my other games with him, he behaved somewhat inscrutably both as a wolf and an innocent. I'd like to hear a little more from him, as most of his posts have been rather shortish.
Boro - looks good, all in all.
Nerwen - looks really good.
wilwa - has made some outstanding contributions, especially in her latest post; rather unsuspicious.
Lommy - now that's a hard one. I don't really know what to make of her, and her attempts to defend Legate (unless they have to do with life outside the village) don't sit right with me. But is it really probable she and Legs are wolves together?

I find it hard to find fault with anybody's given reasons for their vote (except, possibly, Lommy's - bad vibes is just a little too vague).
As for my own reasons, if anybody hasn't got it yet: I stated I found Kit suspicious based on the points against her made by Boro and Nerwen, at a time when she had only one vote. I certainly wasn't 100 % (or even 80 %) convinced of her guilt, but I suspected nobody else enough to vote for. I decided to vote late and wait if a better option would develop, but 5 minutes to DL there was none that I found more convincing. I had to vote someone (well, technically I might have abstained or done a self-vote, but what would have been the point?), so I stuck with my first suspicion - it wasn't good, but the best I could do at the time.

[Brinniel]

You asked who I'm voting for, Legate? Well, you'll hate to hear it, but I'll be voting you. You've made your arguments plenty, and while these arguments are well written, they don't convince me. Yeah there is the possibly of being framed, but it still seems more sensible for the wolves to make as many kills possible while they still can. Anyway, I think you're death will reveal a lot. If we lynch you and confirm you're a wolf, then we can toMorrow analyse posts to figure out who your fellows are. Not to mention, it'll prevent any double kills from ever happening. And if you so happen to be innocent as you claim, we can look back at toDay and see the reactions and attitudes of different players to help us figure out which of them are the wolves.

And I do have to go now and won't be back, so:

++Legate

Note: There's only an hour left, so let's not spend the rest of the Day discussing Legate. The wolves want us distracted, so I suggest we don't let ourselves get distracted and focus the attention elsewhere at other players who could be wolves too.

I'll guard:

++Shasta

He's made few posts so far, but the ones he made do make me think him innocentish. I find Shasta is a good person to trust, so I'd like to know for sure that I can.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, in that case (after reading her last post) I am leaning to see Brinn possibly also a bit more like guilty. Rather "simple" way of putting the matter off the table. Though it's true it may not necessarily mean guilt if you trust someone on one Day and then by logic you change your mind (especially if the first was Day 1). But still.

Btw, if wilwa is not innocent, the fact that her and mine lists x-posted might help in some way too. She could not have adjusted her lists based on what I said (in whichever way it might be of use).

[Nogrod]

It is interesting indeed how the lists of Legate and Wilwa bring forwards two different pictures of our overall situation... I mean just as I was ready to throw away some of the jammed intterrelations concerning both of them, their posts just rekindled them... Hmm...

What Legate says:

Inziladun- I am really letting others decide, because I have no particular idea.
McCaber- not very vocal, could be anything.
wilwarin538- probably guilty.

And what Wilwa says:

Suspicious
Legate: I suppose suspicious is technically the wrong word for him, it's more that he is a logical choice and that his death could answer some questions and clear up a few things (hopefully)
McCaber: mainly cause his vote yesterday bugged me, I wouldn't vote for him purely on this, I'm just keeping an eye out for him
Zil: his vote, and over all badness vibe coming from him, again will keep an eye out, and will concentrate a bit more on him tomorrow if I'm around

They would be really daring to both be wolves - with possibly the other two involved - and I don't think one has made a jackpot as being innocent. But that makes one think anyway...

EDIT X'd from Brinn onwards... interesting co-incidence in thinking Legate...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchie

Sally - has been very active and helpful yesterDay and toDay, so I fail to see how her retiring to do tallies for the last hour makes her suspicious (actually, it makes me wonder about Brinn and Nog suspecting her for such a frail reason).

A long story but made short it's something like the following: when a wolf is a around the DL and has no problem (the voting is going fine from her perspective) they kind of forget that if they were innocents they could not be that sure and would be bothered about how the voting goes. So just hanging around, posting either nonsense or tallies or whatever without trying to affect the voting or begging others to tell what they are going to do - or telling others what they have in mind to get a response - looks darn suspicious. I mean that's the only steady way of catching werewolves (I've spotted quite a few for just that). And somehow the wolves just don't seem to learn it (well some do but quite a many seemingly do not). And it is understandable: with the final heat they feel secure and get relaxed, and if they feel no pressure they decide to be careful rather than getting involved as any involvement might make them look bad following the outcome of the voting they can't know beforehand.

I mean: if you have no stake in it why to offer your neck to be cut the next Day?

[Pitchwife]

DL approaching, and I don't want to vote in a hurry again. So:
++Legate
Sorry if you're innocent, but you'll understand we have to find out. (And I do sincerely hope you're not gifted!)

And
++Guard Nogrod
Much as I appreciate his contributions (as noted yesterDay), he doesn't quite seem his usual self, so better err on the side of caution.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog; I'm not quite convinced, but I see your point.

[wilwarin538]

The thing with Sally is that she always waits to the last second to vote, at least from what I can remember. So I don't know really how suspicious that makes her, it doesn't really to me anyway. I think it's just something she automatically does in order to always give, what she thinks is, a good vote. Cause even when someone is innocent they may still do things in order to not look suspicious.

x'ed with Pitch

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(And I do sincerely hope you're not gifted!)

I think a gifted Legate would have revealed a long time ago, since it was fairly clear most people would vote him. I admit he could be innocent, but I seriously doubt he's gifted and hasn't said anything.

[McCaber]

Well, I am forced away beyond my control. A hurried vote to guard

++ Nogrod

mostly because he's been making a lot of sense, and I'd rather see him alive.

I cannot in good conscience vote Legate after I made a point yesterDay on what to do in this exact circumstance. So this right now is more of a look of suspicion than anything else:

++ Inziladun

[Nogrod]

Well, Legate looks like getting the rope and I do agree he's our best choice even if he made a spirited fight.

If for some reason he turns out innocent I'd say we should look at Wilwa quite closely.

McCaber and and Inziladun will be interesting to read after either of the two is dead and revealed.

I'm somewhat totally undecided with Boro and Lommy: at times they look like the voices of wisdom and on others like creepy wolves. I wouldn't like to see either of them lynched soon but would look at them quite closely as they're both able to pull an act.

With Nerwen I'm the most suspicious on the consensus around that she's innocent. I actually suspected her a bit on Day1 but toDay she has been very reasonable. Like I felt yeaterDay about Mnemo; she's almost too reasonable to be true. So I'm not actually suspecting her but am worried about the consensus eg. betting heavily there being wolves within her guarding-votes. That would be an easy place to meddle in.

Sally looks bad but then she looks like Sally as well. I'm really torn with her. She could be a wolf going against her "already lost" mate - which would be understandable - well even something Legate would have insisted as the situation dawned on them the last Night. But then again I might be totally wrong with her, and Legate to be sure.

EDIT: X'd with a host... well, since my last one.