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09-05-2006, 11:40 AM | #281 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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Would Aragorn have had it in him though to resort to violent or forceful means to take his Kingship? I personally think that his experience in the Battle of the Pelennor taught him a cold hard lesson in warfare and leadership - its one thing to fight in a war, its another to lead your men into battle and take responsibility for their deaths. And I'm making that point because deep down Aragorn did have it in him to be ruthless, he was by no means perfect as shown by what almost happened at Meduseld. Quote:
Each of the three times he undergoes a rebirth. This has a direct link to the significance of the Number Three, which has modern symbolism in the Trinity, the Triquetra and much older symbolism in the Odin Knot and Trifold nature of the Goddess (older still is the Triple Spiral found at Newgrange, current thinking is that this is a shamanic symbol). In this latter symbolism it stands for water, earth and air. The three ways in which Frodo is attacked - almost drowned, entombed alive (like a Celtic warrior entering the fogou) and finally attacked on the hilltop of Weathertop by a Sword, symbol of the element Air. He's also attacked in turns in body, mind and spirit, yet more symbolism.
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09-05-2006, 11:52 AM | #282 | |
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09-05-2006, 11:53 AM | #283 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I for one enjoyed the countering of Davem, Although I have not contributed much to this thread, I to withdraw, for a discussion with no passion or opposition is not for me.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
09-05-2006, 12:07 PM | #284 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Anyway, one point you make where Tolkien talks of his inspiration for the 'End' of the Ring is interesting. I know exactly what Tolkien means here, and I've heard a lot of other writers talk about it too. It's the Muse. The Story Fairy. The Flash of Inspiration. For Tolkien it might have been God who gave him that flash of idea. It's different for everyone. I know when writing a tale or a poem how sometimes its as though the story totally takes you over and you find yourself writing almost subconsciously. Ever tried writing as you fall asleep? I have, and you see some truly inspired things on the page next morning. And wake up with an inky pillow, too.
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09-05-2006, 12:08 PM | #285 | |
Fading Fëanorion
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Jesus still had a long way to go before he accepted his path. All the wise men didn't come to see the birth of a hero. They came because they have been summoned to discuss some grave matter, or because they had news to tell, or because they dreamt of some freaky thing. Of course, you might say that Eru managed to assemble the bunch just in time. Where are the shepherds, by the way? Just because there is no parallel to another religion doesn't make it a parallel in Christianity: it could be no parallel at all. Your proposed parallel doesn't strike me, at least not yet. edit: cross-posted with Lal, of course. |
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09-05-2006, 01:05 PM | #286 | |||||
Eagle of the Star
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09-05-2006, 01:35 PM | #287 |
A Mere Boggart
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Satans, Saurons and stuff.
I read some of the parallels concerning Satan/Sauron/Melkor. I've often thought, like others, of Melkor as being a bit like the Lucifer who was cast out of Heaven for being too smart (in the bad sense). But there's a Hell (sorry ) of a lot missing in this analogy. In the Bible, Satan sends evil into the world by tempting Adam and Eve who had previously been Good and lived in Paradise. He is the cause of The Fall - or you could argue that Adam and Eve are. Either way, the world was inherently Good and then Satan brought Evil into it with The Fall. In Tolkien's cosmology however, our 'Satan' is there causing trouble before any people inhabit Arda. There is no period of Good. Melkor adds his own theme to the Music and thus the world is created complete with inherent evil. It suffuses everything, even the land itself, and the Elves! Letter 286 goes into this. So right away, Melkor is a different kettle of fish. There are also some incredibly strong correspondences with Norse mythology. In this we find Loki the Trickster, and while Tolkien has no amoral Trickster (unless its Ungoliant), there is a strong link with what happens to Loki, who is eventually chained down, to be kept that way until the end of time and Ragnarok. As is Melkor, who is chained and cast into the Void until the end of time, at which point he will re-enter Arda and fight one last battle. Melkor will do this with his own followers. Loki will come down from the North in his ship with Hel and all her subjects. This can be found in the Eddas, which Tolkien knew backwards. And now for the 'stuff'. The concept of Satan was taken from Zoroastrianism, when the Jews were in exile in Babylon; Zoroastrianism followed a system where there was a constant conflict between good/evil, which is why they had Satan. Interesting that Islam, which grew up in the same area as Zoroastrianism, also includes Satan as a mythical figure. Didn't mention Sauron but I liked the sibilance.
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09-05-2006, 01:55 PM | #288 |
Eagle of the Star
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I am not familiar with Norse mythology; is Loki involved in any manner in the corrupting/Fall of humans, as Melkor is? From what I read online, he voluntarily helps the gods too. I am looking forward to your comments on Sauron, since he, as the last "mythological form of evil", is more relevant to our discussion
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09-05-2006, 02:24 PM | #289 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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You can find Sauron in Odin's bad aspects. And you might also find Gandalf in Odin's good aspects, which is interesting given that Sauron and Gandalf are supposed to be equals in terms of 'power'; so the two sides of Odin come into conflict with each other in the form of Sauron and Gandalf. Odin is one-eyed. He is a God of war and death and destruction. He has a Ring which spawns other magical rings and can see all from his kingdom. Odin travels about dressed as an old man with a staff, grey beard, cloak and hat. He uses magic and rides the greatest of all horses. I didn't promise any sauron, I really did put his name there just for the sound of it. But you've got some all the same. Quote:
I like point 3 - as this also ties in with Tolkien's idea that it was the ordinary men in WWI who gave up the greatest sacrifices, so he really did see put into action that quote from the Bible (which is one I like myself). However, what about that we have three Hobbits who go to Valinor, not two? What about Bilbo? I would venture to say that Bilbo is not all that humble, in fact he's quite a proud little Hobbit. And he is the one Hobbit who uses the Ring the most - not out of a lust for power but mostly to keep away from the pesky neighbours. Free from malice but not entirely innocent. And that also links to point 4. Note that Sam too is tempted by the Ring. Perhaps its not the bearing of the Ring itself which destroys Sam and Frodo, but where they take it, and what they do with it. Gollum is the most badly affected by it, but then he uses it to kill and steal.
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09-05-2006, 07:58 PM | #290 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Before I forget... Regarding The White City. Is it a Holy City? Good question. What jumps out at me is that the descendants of The Silver Tree (Telperion, right? ) grew there.
Strider's song-- "The Light upon the Silver Tree Fell like bright rain in gardens of the kings of old." "O Gondor, Gondor, shall men behold the silver tree or west wind blow again between the mountains and the sea?" In addition to the healing and the tactical victories-- The finding of the scion of the Silver Tree, up in the mountains, sealed/ proved/ verified Aragorn's claim. And under his reign, the white tree (A white tree) flowered in Minas Tirith again. Now having said all that-- how can I resist?-- rewind to the age of the trees, in Valinor. Paradise-- a garden-- shining with the light of those two trees. There was another garden, a paradise, containing two particular, peculiar trees. There was the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and there was the tree of life.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 09-05-2006 at 08:02 PM. |
09-06-2006, 03:38 AM | #291 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Having had time to consider my sins I hope I will be allowed to return to the debate
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There are certainly no mentions of trees in Northern mythology or folklore, so it is impossible that Tolkien could have gotten the idea there either. (Its fairly clear that Tolkien was ignorant of trees as he depicted them walking around on a number of occasions & there is no mention of trees walking around in the Biblical record) Now, an apology. I won't be able to participate further in this thread as I am currently putting together a new one: Lord of the Trousers. The inspiration for this new thread was the realisation that Tolkien himself wore trousers (he rarely, as far as we know, left the house without them) and so did a number of his characters. This use of trousers was clearly of major significance to Tolkien, as he deliberately introduced them into his secondary world. I think an in depth exploration of how & why Tolkien used Trousers in his writings – for instance why some characters wear them & others don't - would be very interesting & shed new light on Tolkien's creative life. I hope to see the thread take off (but hopefully not the trousers). I'm sure many Downers will be able to put forward examples of trouser usage (& possible mis-usage) in Tolkien's works. |
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09-06-2006, 04:33 AM | #292 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Davem
Shame about the continued mocking tone, but I think it does you a disservice more than anyone else here. Look, we get your point. But does it matter whether Tolkien intended a particular parallel to be drawn or not? We can discuss (preferably sensibly and courteously) whether he may have intended it or not, but there is also fertile ground for serious and constructive discussion based on people’s personal reactions to the book. Indeed, what you appear to have failed to grasp (although another member not a million miles from you clearly has) is that the Biblical parallels being drawn (whether the author intended them or not and whether you and/or I agree with them or not) are sparking some interesting (in my view, at least) discussions, including tangential discussions on other possible parallels and significances. You may not find them interesting, but others clearly do (whether from the perspective of authorial intention, personal reaction or academic interest – or a combination of those things). Accordingly, I really do not see why you feel the need to continue to pour scorn on the ongoing discussion, from the sidelines as it were. You have been given fair warning about the tone and tenor of your contributions. If you persist, then you will have no cause to complain about the consequences.
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09-06-2006, 05:25 AM | #293 |
Illustrious Ulair
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A)Well, I could respond by stating that I have had a fair amount of positive rep for my contributions here - & by some of the 'bigger hitters' on the Downs – so clearly not only is it the case that not everyone is offended by my points, but many actually agree with my positions. Hence you are not only attempting to exclude me, but a whole section of Downs members who find the point of this thread eludes them.
B)First & foremost, the whole approach being taken in this thread is something Tolkien himself condemned as ignorant & silly – breaking down the story in search of its raw materials. If I am to be asked not to contribute for making that point I suspect you would exclude Tolkien too. If I have been dismissive of such analyses I feel I see no difference (apart from a more blatantly sarcastic tone) between what I have said & what Tolkien himself said in the Foreword to LotR as regards the attempt to find WWII 'allegories/analogies' in the work. C) If you consider 'There's a tree in the Bible & a tree in LotR so the Bible must have been an inspiration for Tolkien there' to be worthy of a serious response I have to say we will have to agree to disagree. |
09-06-2006, 06:09 AM | #294 |
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Closed. Debate, argumentation, and differing opinions have always been welcome on the Downs. But mockery of others' positions is contrary to the tolerance we have always shown. While the other moderators and administrators decide with me what course of action we will take, the thread remains closed.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 09-06-2006 at 06:12 AM. |
09-06-2006, 07:15 AM | #295 |
Dread Horseman
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Back open for business.
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09-06-2006, 07:43 AM | #296 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
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I find the Norse comparison instructive, perhaps we could expand this to other areas as well
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09-06-2006, 08:05 AM | #297 |
Cryptic Aura
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Going back to some of my first posts here . . .
One of the very interesting aspects of reading is finding connections and places where the text resonates with us as readers. This happens as we read. The very process of reading is not a passive 'act upon me text as I empty my mind' but one of engagement, trying out ideas, guessing where things will go, trying to imagine what will happen to various characters, seeing parallels. It isn't an academic exercise in source hunting or breaking apart a story, but a coming together to create greater richness.
This is the pleasure of reading. Sometimes of course our own fantasy takes flight and we can learn how to step back and say, 'well, did I get that right?' Or, 'will someone else be interested in this?' The point which interested me in Mansun's first post is that I did not see some of the parallels he did. Never in a million years would I see Elrond as he did. And so I posted why the parallel didn't work for me. This is what I see as being valuable in a thread like this: examining under what conditions parallels apply and when not. I'm as liable as any reader to see connections that might not pertain or apply. I remember mentioning to Estelyn Telcontar the story of Orpheus placed in the heavens as recompense for his great grief over the failure of his guest and thinking this would be an interesting parallel for Frodo, sent West as recompense of his failure to heal. Estelyn said she thought the analogy worked best with Eärendil . Of course! This is why I think it is less germane to argue authorial intention (although there are many complex reasons for suggesting that authors do not hold the final say on what a text means--philosophical reasons which have nothing to do with denying religious belief, I might add) and more interesting simply to discuss how ideas help us see a text in a fuller light. Sometimes we actually learn from our reading by making connections even if those connections aren't "there" in the text. I never thought of Minas Tirith as the holy city, but there is a great deal of cultural meaning ascribed to the idea of a holy city. I think it is a valuable process to consider if that applies to the White City. Maybe in the end some of us accept it and others don't, but surely we learn more about not only LotR and literary/mythological culture but also about how we read in the process. What holy cities are there in pagan stories? And what trees? Of course there is Yggdrasil, the world tree. Sometimes our reading can be blinkered--if that is the best word--by our lack of knowledge of other stories and talking about other stories with a similar theme or character or event can enhance our pleasure. Okay, pontificating over!
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 09-06-2006 at 08:10 AM. |
09-06-2006, 09:20 AM | #298 | |
Eagle of the Star
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It seems to me that my comparison of Minas Tirith to a holy city (I had Jerusalem in mind) proved rather hard to swallow; I still find it nice (pets it) . One of the things that is interesting though is that MT has seven levels (I would speculate each one has a main gate), while Jerusalem has seven hills (according to the jewish work Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, but not only) and seven gates.
One a lesser note: though not very common, the Christian church has been imagined as a boat also (Noah's ark, as according to St. Augustine of Hippo); in the description of Minas Tirith, we have this: Quote:
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09-06-2006, 09:54 AM | #299 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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And on death, I don't think Tolkien viewed it as a blessing, but as an inevitable. He showed that those who could accept it as an inevitable and resign themselves to it could find some comfort in that when the time came (e.g. Theodens words about going to his forefathers), compared with those who resisted it and could not accept the inevitability (and even tried to stave it off!). By no means all mortals found death to be a 'blessing', some of the best even lingered, e.g. Arwen. Quote:
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09-06-2006, 10:03 AM | #300 | ||||||
Eagle of the Star
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09-06-2006, 10:13 AM | #301 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Gordon's alive!
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09-06-2006, 10:20 AM | #302 | ||
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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I don't remember enough about Odin off of the top of my head to draw legitimate parallels, or I would. If nobody else beats me to it, I might try for it later tonight.
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peace
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09-06-2006, 11:41 AM | #303 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Gordon's alive!
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09-06-2006, 02:03 PM | #304 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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peace
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09-06-2006, 02:19 PM | #305 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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EDIT: Some more stuff about Gandalf/Odin. In Letters 107, Tolkien calls Gandalf: Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
Last edited by Lalwendë; 09-06-2006 at 02:39 PM. |
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09-06-2006, 02:53 PM | #306 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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There's seven days too to consider. There's seven somethings in Norse mythology too as I vaguely recollect. There used to be seven planets, too. As for Minas Tirith's ship's keel, methinks the Numenorean link might just have something to do with that design. Quote:
On the other hand, would Tolkien have been making some kind of comment on holy cities, suggesting that ancient things decline and are not worthy of reverence? He couldn't just be puffing up Minas Tirith, could he? And if we're talking cities, we have to consider the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, don't we? But that's the richness of Tolkien. He leads out in so many directions.
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09-06-2006, 03:17 PM | #307 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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09-06-2006, 07:16 PM | #308 | |||||||||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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considering posts 17-31
...part two.
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Davem (or Wikipedia, or Sauron Defeated) can tell you that this quote comes from the poem 'Crist' by Cynewulf. "Old English Earendel appears in glosses as translating iubar "radiance, morning star". The article says that in this poem Earendel corresponds to John the Baptist; but the leading two lines.....\ éala éarendel engla beorhtast ofer middangeard monnum sended ......haunted Tolkein til he wrote a story of his own about them. The translation from Wikipedia is: Hail Earendel, brightest of angels, In the New Testament, the one referred to as The Morning Star is Jesus. over Midgard to men sent Quote:
Ah, I should have checked the following post. Davem clarifies. Thanks. Quote:
Fea (post 30) and Mansun (post 31) follow; agreed...
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09-07-2006, 10:01 AM | #309 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Can someone out there help?
OK, I wasn't going to post on this thread. But there are a few things in this discussion still not tied up that are bothering me. Now that it's nice and quiet I can sneak in the back door and rant on to my heart's content!
As most of the old-timers know (old in posting, not in age, you understand!), I am not a Christian but have often participated in threads which seek to understand how and why Tolkien incorporated many biblical and/or Christian elements into his storyline and characters, including the thread Imp started that looked at the "revisions" in LotR. Having said that, I would also add that I am not much on labels. I would never call LotR a "Christian" story just as I would never call it "pagan" or paste on any one of a number of other possible labels. I can certainly find elements of both Christian and pagan world views in Middle-earth. Some of those were intentionally put into the story by the author; others undoubtedly slipped in through the Tolkien's subconscious, and he only rediscovered them in later reflection. Whether the latter represent a specific Christian or Catholic paradigm or a "more universal" myth is probably impossible to say with certainty, though that shouldn't stop us from arguing about it. I have gone back and forth on this issue endlessly: just how Christian is Lord of the Rings.... Tolkien didn't make it easy for us. One minute he lays out tantalyzing hints within the plot or supplementary writing and the next minute he's covering up his tracks. I've read the usual stuff and have even made a point of digesting a lot of the "Christian" criticism, books by folk like Wright and Wood that have come out in the past few years. To be truthful, when I first read LotR back in the sixties, the so-called biblical/Christian elements did not stick in my head, even though I was fairly cognizant of such things as I was embarking on an academic path that would eventually lead to teaching medieval history. But the minute the letters were published and info on Tolkien's life came out, I began poking my nose deeper into the story and discovered a fair amount of biblical and Christian content--or at least allusions that could be interpreted that way. (I even have a few links to an analysis of "Jewish" themes in Middle-earth, which I find extremely interesting!), But there is one aspect of Tolkien's world so decidedly non-Christian that it gives me considerable pause in any examination of the Christian content of LotR. Middle-earth seems to be profoundly pagan and fatalistic at the core. (There, I've said it!) The overwhelming sense of evil that hangs at the center of the universe goes beyond the depiction of evil in mainline Christian theology. There is simply no escaping it. If evil doesn't get you today, it's going to get you tomorrow! In that sense, Frodo's fate was a given, and the Sea Bell makes a lot of sense. Shippey has written about this--how Tolkien was examining a world before revelation when men and hobbits and Elves were essentially placed in a world where there was no logical hope. Please note that I said "logical hope", rather than "no hope at all". We'd all be dead in two minutes if there was truly no help at all. Yes, I know about original sin and such in a Christian context, but this is a situation where the very fabric of Arda has been contaminated by Morgoth. That didn't happen in the bible. According to Tolkien, we are all living in Morgoth's world, since our world is supposedly a continuation of Middle-earth. Yet I don't think most orthodox Christians would say that Earth belongs to Satan (a few might--I don't think those would be in the majority). In Middle-earth, you can literally say that: Eru is barely seen and the Valar only stick their noses in occasionally. Morgoth and Sauron were a much more constant presence. By that measure, this is not a Judaeo/Christian world. Interestingly, the one group of critics that agree with me on this are a number of Protestant ones who feel that Tolkien's depiction of evil and his fatalistic attitude are far removed from "conventional" Christian belief. A few even reject LotR on that basis, though most simply point out the difference and indicate their own view of existence is not identical. As an aside, that's one problem with this thread relating to semantics and interpreation. "Christianity" (or theism) is not one thing; it is many. Biblical interpretations vary from scholar to scholar and denomination to denomination. The view of Jewish/Hebrew scholars, for example, on the book of Isaiah is markedly different from that of most Christians. It's just not possible to pin down one "Christian" viewpoint so easily. This dilemma is underlined by the fact that some Protestant critics object to the fatalistic northern tone that stands at the core of Arda, while other Christians have no trouble with it. Getting back to the main issue..... Somebody out there help me! I don't care how many allusions, images, and symbols that Tolkien "stole" from the bible. How can Middle-earth and the Legendarium possibly be Christian if so much pessimism and fatalism stand at its very core? Maybe Tolkien felt and sensed this ambivalence and, realizing the truly pagan world he'd created despite all the biblical imports, felt compelled to write the Athrabeth in his relative old age. Unlike Davem and Imp, I love those later writings. I also love the old Northern pessimism that stood at the heart of the original writings. So call me contradictory! But I feel that two-way tug in my own heart as well---and I'm not phrasing that in terms of Christian doctrine but a general way of looking at our existence--the hopeful and the not so hopeful, the anguished response versus the refusal to give in. Any ideas?
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 09-07-2006 at 10:22 AM. |
09-07-2006, 10:36 AM | #310 | |
Cryptic Aura
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As you say, Norse mythology was exceptionally pessimistic. Chaos wins, in the end, with the defeat of the gods in the final battle. I wonder if it is this which drew Tolkien and the other men in the trenches at the Somme to Fairie. Does horror and death and defeat seem less terrifying if it can be placed within some kind of context, even one which is devoid of hope? Yet at the same time, I have been thinking not so much of philosophical or theological matters but of literary ones. Tolkien's beloved Beowulf is also a work which incorporates both pagan and Christian elements, sometimes easily, sometimes not. The tension between the two is one of the powerful attractions of the poem. Perhaps Squatter can speak to this, as he likely has read the poem more recently than I and can give examples of this tension. It could well exist more in other Anglo Saxon works as well--I don't know the entire corpus. Would this tension be something that Tolkien strove to incorporate in his work at a later date? Or was it something related to his own faith? I think it can be said that this tension exists in LotR. It is possible to read without 'seeing' or considering this tension, yet the book becomes far more compelling--to me at least--when both these aspects are held in uneasy equipose. The fascination for me in Old English poetry lies in how it incorporates the world under change--the passing of the pagan era and the arrival of Chrisitianity--and yes, Child you are so right to say that there are many versions of Christianity. sic transit gloria mundi. Perhaps it is this fascination which also draws me to LotR. So that what we have is not an either/or situation, but a work in which the very tension between those two poles--hope and hopelessness, pagan and Christian--is part of its attraction? Some of the best stories are those which don't provide pat solutions and presentations, but which always leave something beyond the grasp of readers, so that each new reader must come to terms with this tension on his or her own and then have that grasp shaken as new readers come along with their own grappling. The tension stretches, but never is resolved.
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09-07-2006, 11:30 AM | #311 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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I think you have hit the nail on the head. You can spend hours, weeks, years searching Arda for images and symbols of Christian hope and veiled references to providence. It is definitely there. You can also view Arda in terms of its pagan themes and allusions, studying the profound pessimism and fatalism that embodied the dreams of the North. Both of these exercises are fulfilling and will get you a little closer to Tolkien's head.
But it's only when you realize that both these strains were somehow tangled up in the soul of a single man, that you get to the heart of what is going on. When you think about this dichotomy, how these different world views somehow blend into one and form the core of Tolkien's Legendarium, it's rather astounding. Ah, if only we could ask him! Truthfully, this recognition makes me feel a bit humble. I know I wouldn't have the brain or the heart to keep two different world views in balance while carrying through with the mundane things in life but he apparently managed it. Yes, this whole balancing act is certainly beyond my ken, and I suspect that it is one reason the Legendarium so appeals to me. I have always been suspicious of "packaged answers", whether secular or religious in origin. My head leans at least vaguely in the direction of hope and the Judeao-Christian heritage, but my experiences in life stubbornly whisper to my heart that fate and doom and pessimism seem all too commonplace. As an historian, the next thing I want to do is bang on the table and demand to know where this dichotomy comes from in Tolkien. The Somme is certainly a factor, but I personally suspect it goes back much earlier than that. Tolkien has talked about some of the problems he and his brother encountered when their mother died. Yet on another level we know absolutely nothing about what this young man was actually feeling when the two of them were left on their own. Tolkien's commitment to Catholicism as well as his personal view of the world as a very frightening place, a place where every man and woman faced an implacable Doom, surely stemmed from this youthful period. His later experience in war would only confirm what he'd already learned as a child about the nature of life and fate. I would love to hear from Squatter or someone else who is more knowledgable about ancient Nordic ways and thinking as well as to hear from those for whom the Christian element in the Legendarium remains especially important.
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09-07-2006, 02:29 PM | #312 |
Itinerant Songster
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The two world views are not as difficult to keep in balance as one might think. Those who call themselves disciples of Christ (I include myself) are, they (and I) believe, rightfully pessimistic about what good can be achieved by my fellow humans; there's just too much orc in all of us. The Northern pessimism is different, but it still agrees with the Christian idea that this world is coming to a crash and burn some day. The difference, of course, is in regard to what happens after that.
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09-07-2006, 03:32 PM | #313 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Yes, Littlemanpoet. That is certainly a big piece of the equation. And in that sense the difference between the two world views is smaller than what they first appear to be.
I guess where I see a greater difference is in the sense of Doom and fate that seems to hang over all the northern epics, including LotR to some decree. You have very little sense of choice or free will, which is an important part of Christianity. There is an inherent pessimism here which, at least to me, seems a heavier burder than what will be possible later in human history when divine revelation rears its head. The interesting thing, of course, is that LotR gives the reader a hint of both sides of that equation. Frodo is free to accept or reject the task, yet we know even from the beginning that he is "doomed". His inability to throw the Ring into the firepit is a confirmation of that. Somehow, Tolkien manages to put the two pieces together in one story and so we argue and question where free will comes in and where providence (or fate) takes over.
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09-07-2006, 06:08 PM | #314 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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This encroaches upon the warrior ethic of the Norse mythologies. Perhaps what is called for is a rereading of Tolkien's thoughts on chivalry in The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth.
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09-07-2006, 07:01 PM | #315 |
Itinerant Songster
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I am not on strong ground with the following, so I'll offer it as a perhaps.
The free will that is - er - glorified in many popular modes of Christianity is misunderstood and perhaps overrated. Christian teaching from the New Testament has a very strong piece that speaks of election and predestination, with which the libertarian minded West has great difficulties. Especially in democratically minded countries such as those of Anglo-Saxon heritage. Read the Revelation of John, the last 3 chapters sometime: while there is hope of glory for the saints, the doom awaiting cowards, the licentious, the rebellious, etc., is quite scary. .....which I find interesting (and have for a while) that perhaps there is more reality to Ragnarok from the perspective of the gods who, in Christian teaching, would be denizens of the enemy; knowing themselves to be condemned, they do the best then can and are true to themselves out of a kind of self-respect/pride of heart. Just a notion. |
09-07-2006, 08:03 PM | #316 | |||
Stormdancer of Doom
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While I thought I had made my intent not to offend rather clear, I will try still harder. This post was geared toward a particular member of the Downs-- who has been a mentor to me for most of my time here, and for whom I was gearing the answer in a paradigm I thought most effective (knowing her background.) I have done some extreme editing on this post. For those interested in seeing the original (which is hardly complete even as it stands) it may be found here. It is thoroughly steeped in the Old Testament, because of the background of the one who asked the original question (regarding whom, there are few if any on this board I hold more dear, and there are few if any on this board for whom I would go further, to avoid offending. )
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First let's tackle this line: Quote:
The optimism and hope that is supposed to dominate Christianity can be reconciled with the pessimism and doom evident in LOTR precisely because it is set in an era that is pre-incarnation and resurrection. Hope (in a Christan worldview) literally hinges on the incarnation and resurrection. Prior to that-- grimness; after that, joy. So back to the tone of the Legendarium. Since Tolkien wrote about a pre-Christian world-- as you say, "pre-revelation"-- it would (by definition in a Christian worldview) be a pessimistic, grim world of very little hope. Apparently Tolkien (as you say) felt the need to write about that in Athrabeth An Andreth. In a pre-Christian world, we (or the pre-Christian characters from a Christian point of view) are waiting -- like Finrod and Andreth-- in the dark with baited breath, waiting for redeemption and light. Quote:
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09-07-2006, 10:13 PM | #317 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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I have an odd idea. It's a fledgling idea, trying to fly, but falling out of the nest and hitting the ground hard. I think it needs proper feathers before it'll work properly and be worth sharing.
Somebody... Squatter? Anybody? Is there a capitalized Importance to light/sun/brightness/[insert name for shiny] in Nordic myths?
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peace
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09-08-2006, 03:48 AM | #318 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Now let me step aside for a moment and ask that people do not post deeply personal interpretations (sermons?) of their own faiths as 'information'. I was enjoying the debate but it so easily slides back into what has already caused trouble and I am feeling provoked (as predicted, and as such, why hit 'send' after this week's events?). One person this week was admonished for their own thundering and tendency to hit 'send' without thinking, and I can add that he is very sorry to have caused offence and knows that to step back would have been the better move. I am sorry myself to have seen this done again so soon. I could have argued against what has been said and given my own interpretation (as I spend a lot of time thinking about faith and philosophy - it's important to me), but I do not see the point, enough upset has been caused for one week.
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09-08-2006, 04:01 AM | #319 | |
Itinerant Songster
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09-08-2006, 04:11 AM | #320 | |
A Mere Boggart
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This theory doesn't give any kind of rebirth, though one theory does - that of the Elastic Universe. Though of course my attempts at explanation of scientific theory will not be troubling Stephen Hawking for any time.
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