The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread

[SamwiseGamgee]

Ah, Formendacil, your point is noted, but I feel that to bestow the title of Warg Rider upon any other than the original and best is an unwise decision. Now, Eomer can correct me if I'm wrong on this point, but I feel it is a valid one to make.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Apologies to The Appreciation Thread for my lack of engagement recently. Computer difficulties.

Hail Gangamel! It is always lovely to see more friends join us here. Once again the topic of Wargy has been brought up, though here the legend is given a slight twist. You speak of this Wargy as a true great of Middle-earth, yet we have heard that that is not so right. I can't remember exactly where in The Thread we spoke of him, but he came across as rather a morally reprehensible fellow indeed. Perhaps you care to defend your friend from these accusations?

As for Orcs, now there is an existential dilemma. Great pity we must feel for these wretched creatures, at least in the whole scheme of things. Theirs is a terrible and miserable fate. Yet we should always remember that Orcs and Wargs are not necessarily linked to one another.

Formendacil touches upon a classic issue in common perceptions of Wargs. It is a shame that the title of Warg Rider has been usurped so diabolically in recent times, always by unworthy Orcs. That is not to say that these Orcs are pathetic; who could ever forget the deeds of the 'Warg Rider' of the 3rd Age? That beast who terrified Elrond, Theoden, Faramir, the Dunlending Wildmen and the entire race of Dwarves among others.

But there is only one Warg Rider: Cam Beleg, of whom Samwise has told the full chilling tale already on The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Those persistent computer difficulties have caused you more pain than any mere mortal could ever tell, Eomer. The loss of J'Lo is one which shall forever scar Mohammed Milla, I fear.

But getting back to business. Ahem. I am glad that we have clarified this point regarding warg riders. In the film (that most unholy place as far as wargs are concerned) Saruman commanded that the warg riders be sent forth. This has led to the common misconception that any beast who rides on a warg is a warg rider. False. To be a warg rider takes greatness the like of which you and I may never know. There are a few select warg riders who we here at the thread recognise, but it is not, as far as we are concerned, an expandable list. Perhaps one of us could list a definitive guide to warg riders. I can, off the top of my head, think of only two:
The Warg Rider, Cam Beleg; and
the warg rider of the third age, of whom Eomer has told us.
Note that only one Warg Rider has capitalisation. A key point, I feel.

Anyway, my ambling has persisted long enough. I hope that out there our fellow warg and Warg Rider appreciators have new tales to tell on this, the greatest of threads.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have dug up no new tale of Wargness in the archives of the Vanyar, unless you want to know about the great sock-hop that happened before the coming of Eärendil.

I may have to search in a new place. Perhaps the local (Filipino) folklore contains influences of the Wargish thought.

[SamwiseGamgee]

I'm sure you shall find that area of the world most conducive to your search, Nilpaurion. Remember my tale of the Black Mountain Warg?

The peoples of those lands have a deep understanding and love for wargs which we athe the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread can only look upon with envy. Some say that wargs have smiled more fondly upon other lands, I say who can blame them. "When one turns his back on a warg he turns his face to pain," as Elrond once said.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Perhaps I could search for a tale related to the 'warg riders' of Saruman. For I have heard through the grapevine (well, a vine of discriminate sort) that this was not wholly an invention on the part of Peter Jackson and his cronies.

Allegedly there existed a group of renegade Orcs calling themselves the Warg Riders, and they supposedly caused consternation during the early Third Age. Hopefully my search for a tale will not prove fruitless.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Let me tell you, Eomer, that even the tiniest titbit of information regarding such an exciting and rebellious group would be greatly appreciated. My breath is heavy with anticipation, let me assure you.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by I, in another thread,

Upon trying out his first set of swords from Gondolin, Legolas finds himself between an ork horde on one side and a Warg horde on the other. (A little known fact is that swords from Gondolin glow green in the presence of Wargs.)

Although posted in jest, I seem to recall an obscure reference in the library at Minas Tirith (where, as I am welcome at Aragorn's Court, I have been found often of late), to the fact that Sting, Glamdring, and Orcrist shone green in the presence of Wargs.

Can anyone with Gondolinic knowledge verify this? If so, was it true for all Wargs, or just those corrupted by Morgoth?

[Gil-Galad]

Wargs were probaly just trained from birth by Orcs...

[SamwiseGamgee]

What treachery is this, Gil Galad! Remember you not those words long written:

"The warg bows to no man. His ways are mysterious and for any to try to control him would be folly. The warg does as he pleases, and whether time or history judges him great or fell he concerns himself not with, for he is a warg and as such he thinks on greater things than any mere mortal such as you or I could ever contemplate."

Orcs do not train wargs from birth! Wargs are that most majestic and beautiful creature, and no orc could sullen the good name of wargdom!

Formendacil, I do not know of any such swords, but I am almost entirely sure this is because my knowlege is lacking and not because you're wrong. I shall research the topic, fear not.

[Gil-Galad]

Then what? they made a pact of their doom? it could also be that they were imprisoned and tortured to obey orcs...if that makes you happy

[SamwiseGamgee]

The problem here, Gil Galad, is that you are applying your own rules of logic and reason to what you understand the situation to be. This is a mistake. Wargs transcend logic, reason, reality and understanding.

Do not try to rationalise the actions of wargs, it is a task which shall only lead downward to doom. Some wargs are noble and great beasts, but others are not. Adolf Hitler loved his country and believed that he was carrying out the wishes of God. One cannot understand this, and so it is with fell wargs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gil-galad, Wargs are far older than Orcs. I believe that Orcs could only mould those Wargs already corrupted by Morgoth, the most powerful.

Formendacil, a brilliant observation. Remember the mysterious green hue on the hill when the Fellowship were assailed by Wargs? Possibly Sting related; maybe Sting was an especially mighty sword, powerful enough to call for help from the hilltops, such was the danger the Fellowship faced at that time.

My search for a tale thus far has been entertaining; Elrond's libraries are highly interesting. Though, of course, you have to be wary enough to sift through the lies that Elrond spreads when Wargs are the the topic. Remember that this thread throws doubt on Elrond's nobility that you don't usually find in books on Tolkien.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Aye, tis true. On many occasion I have been left dumbfounded by the sheer hostility and hatred directed by 'the wise' towards wargs. Remember, though, Eomer, Elrond held council with the last King of wargs and after having been saved by them he is perhaps kinder than others...like Gandalf. But that's another story for another day...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Formendacil, a brilliant observation. Remember the mysterious green hue on the hill when the Fellowship were assailed by Wargs? Possibly Sting related; maybe Sting was an especially mighty sword, powerful enough to call for help from the hilltops, such was the danger the Fellowship faced at that time.

My search for a tale thus far has been entertaining; Elrond's libraries are highly interesting. Though, of course, you have to be wary enough to sift through the lies that Elrond spreads when Wargs are the the topic. Remember that this thread throws doubt on Elrond's nobility that you don't usually find in books on Tolkien.

Don't forget that Glamdring was also on that hill, and as it said to have been the sword of the king (Turgon), it must have been a mighty sword.

I seem to recall a reference in the Book of Extra-Lost Tales that there was an alliance between the Wargs and the Gondolindrim. I think that the greenish-hue on the swords was a way for the Elves to know when their allies were coming to aid them.

As I recall, the reason Gondolin fell was that the Wargs were delayed from coming to their assistance as they were guarding Elwing and Silmaril's journey to the sea. Earendil always held this against them, although it was entirely an accident, the fault of the forces of Morgoth, and it may explain Elrond's antipathy towards the Wargs, in part. The Wargs were also not present when the Feanorians sacked the Havens, because they were busy holding off the massive host of Morgoth that was coming against them. A greater threat than the Feanorians, but Elrond WAS very attached to his mother...

I'm pretty sure this is the case. The Book of Extra-Lost Tales IS written in an obscure branch of Nandorin, so it's devilishly hard to be certain what they are saying, but this seems to be the conclusive explanation.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

My search for a tale thus far has been entertaining; Elrond's libraries are highly interesting. Though, of course, you have to be wary enough to sift through the lies that Elrond spreads when Wargs are the the topic. Remember that this thread throws doubt on Elrond's nobility that you don't usually find in books on Tolkien.

Ah yes, but you must not forget to include the archives of the Stewards in Minas Anor, among others. As I have studied, it has been revealed to me that Morgoth did in truth breed the Wargs of the hardiest of the groundhog strains, thus finally is it explained their predilection for charging off of cliffs; they merely follow their natural instinct (unsuppressed, it must be said, by the sorcery of Melkor) to tunnel down through the earth!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Forward that to Peter Jackson Neurion, you just gave him a lifeline.

Though the wise observer will not be fooled by your incisive wit and way around a problem, sir. Melkor did not create the Wargs. He has tried to create new breeds of Wargs though. The experiment didn't really work. They tended to come out of the cauldrons with yellow tentacles or irrational cravings for hot soup. You never know what you'll get with genetic mutation, eh?

Saruman was more skilled in that regard, as the Rohirrim found out all too well.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Though the wise observer will not be fooled by your incisive wit and way around a problem, sir. Melkor did not create the Wargs. He has tried to create new breeds of Wargs though. The experiment didn't really work. They tended to come out of the cauldrons with yellow tentacles or irrational cravings for hot soup. You never know what you'll get with genetic mutation, eh?

Interesting point Eomer. I have returned to the archives and it seems that the source of the story that Morgoth created the first Wargs out of groundhogs is some extant scribbling on the back of a shopping list made up for Vehiron, Captain of the Guards of Minas Tirith under Earnur, by his wife.

However, in the most ancient scrolls and codexes of Numenor yet preserved in the City (not to mention some supplementary material found in the library at Caras Galadhon), we find that, though not originated by Morgoth, Wargs did not in fact exist as a seperate species in the beginning, but were an offshoot of the genus Lupus vindictivous, indiscriminati as the name runs in the speech of the Men of Rúm.

[SamwiseGamgee]

But what does this mean, pray tell?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

But what does this mean, pray tell?

Lupus vindictivous indiscriminati [<Lat. 2nd Age <lupus wolf]

Roughly translates as "Large ferocious easily provoked feral canine capable of holding grudges with broad diet".

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Is anyone here familiar with Ludwig Wittgenstein's 'game' example? Perhaps Wargs cannot be defined. More on that later....

As for grudges, well, 'tis true that Wargs are especially skilled in that art. For their memories suffer no boundaries, and they can be very ill-tempered. A nasty hybrid; someone such as Elrond has been kept on his toes by the Wargs for thousands of years.

Pages ago we touched on the subject of the Istari. Now, we generally suppose that the Istari were not Wargs (although those so-called 'Blue Wizards' are tricky) but what of the purpose of the Istari? I have heard that Gandalf and co. were actually sent to act as powerful negotiators to the Wargs because, as we are all aware, the meek and timid of Middle-earth lived in constant fear of Wargs, and that's no real life (according to Manwe anyway).

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Perhaps Wargs cannot be defined.

Sort of a Zen thing, huh?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Quite zennish, yes. It's like I said before, wargs transcend our perceptions of understanding- including definitions.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

Quite zennish, yes. It's like I said before, wargs transcend our perceptions of understanding- including definitions.

I hate Zen.

[SamwiseGamgee]

I'll come clean, I have very little idea of what zen is. But I do know one thing- wargs are better than it!

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

I'll come clean, I have very little idea of what zen is. But I do know one thing- wargs are better than it!

Yes! And I agree with your statement in its totallity!!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Hurrah! Let's hear it for wargs!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Indeed, let's hear it for Wargs! And where better to salute our idols than right here - at The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread!

*waits for rapturous applause to end*

I have found a tale, a devil of one if I may say so. 'Tis a tale filled with blood and unhappiness. Expect it - soon!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Like a multi-million dollar blockbuster movie, the promised tale has us on the literal as well as metaphorical and existential edges of our seats. Please be quick, Eomer!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Eomer, our patience is being tested! Give us a story quick, or we shall subject you to Leonard Cohen albums whilst chatting with a chartered accountant- a punishment favoured by Mughra, the cruellest Warg of all!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Apologies for the delay. I am having some difficulty in translating the tale from the Spanish version I found. Rest assured, I will keep working on it. There are several difficulties in the translation regarding Wargs; you see, I believe the scroll I found is Peruvian and, well, as we have already discussed on this Thread the Peruvians are pretty much unchallenged in their love of Wargs. They invented new Spanish words to be applied solely to Wargs, and I just want to make sure that I get a decent translation.

To keep you amused (or bemused, rather) check out this and that

Ridiculous.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well this is very confusing, and that is just odd! Good searching, though, Eomer. I'd never thought of googling our heroes. i prefer a good old paper search, but one cannot ignore the power of the net when researching wargs.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

Well this is very confusing, and that is just odd! Good searching, though, Eomer. I'd never thought of googling our heroes. i prefer a good old paper search, but one cannot ignore the power of the net when researching wargs.

Could that be an indication of an interest on the part of the famed Wargy? Surely it is not pure coincidence that his name was selected for that enterprise. Was it just a vile attempt to cash in on his great name, or was Wargy actually associated with things of that nature, so that an association, unlikely though it may be to human minds, was obvious to that of a Warg?

[SamwiseGamgee]

There is a possibility, however slim and unlikely, that wargy was in fact a wedding photographer. Remember that Wargs transcend logic, so while it may seem stupid for Wargy- knowing all that we do about him- to spend his spare time doing so, we cannot apply such statements, because what is 'stupidity' to us, is purest logic to a Warg.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

My, my! What a remarkable site you offer in your signature Samwise. Hopefully word will get around.

As to the link between Wargy and wedding photography, I have grave doubts; but we should investigate, certainly.

My tale of the so-called 'Warg Riders' of the Third Age is ready to post. Perhaps it will shed some light on that infamous movie line. Recall the Orc that sneered in answer to Saruman? They were Orcs of that kind.

*shudder*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In the Third Age of Middle-earth, memory only remained of the Warg Rider, Cam Beleg, that most treacherous of foes, death arranged by Melkor in the zenith of the Dark Lord's cunning. But still there were beings who hailed The Warg Rider as a god.

There were a group of Orcs who devoted themselves to carrying out ruinous deeds in the name of Cam Beleg. This motley crew had arranged after being exiled from their homes for being, dare I say.....too evil. These Orcs were true anarchists, showing nothing but contempt for even the Orc hierarchies. Thus, they were banished and left to fend for themselves.

These Orcs included Grifdokh, Marshmak and Bellizor, three Orcs from the large population in Rhun. These three were magnificent warriors who had been denied high office due to dirty Orc politics. They abandoned their people and vanished from the east.

Maldakar was an extremely intelligent Orc. He could converse with any creature in Middle-earth, even the trees, for it is said he was taught by Elves. He had so many enemies that he was not welcome anywhere.

Uchnogh could control water. It is said that he had been assigned this power by Ulmo - by mistake. He used the power to cruel ends. He was hated by the Orcs of Anfalas and banished from their kingdom.

Finally, Sarcroch was a very ancient Orc. He was a sorceror, and he had always been alone.

These six Orcs came together by chance one cold night in the South Downs, south-east of Bree. They quickly perceived that they could gain much from a fellowship. So they collaberated and brought to them many Wargs, for they desired to emulate Cam Beleg, The Warg Rider, the only one any of them had ever admired.

Now, these Wargs were very weak by Warg standards. Corrupted long before, they did all that was demanded of them by the Orcs. And foul things were demanded. Their chief delight was in the pillaging of small villages. They took especial pleasure in the murder of young children and adolescents. They stole everything. They even kidnapped the daughter of one Ragnar, a man of the Wold. He was rendered inconsolable by this. They were, in short, a nightmare to all right-minded people, these Warg Riders.

So, it was decided to destroy them once and for all. But they were so hard to find, due to their many skills. Even when they were found it was difficult to do anything forceful against them. So the enemies of the Warg Riders enlisted the help of a mysterious wizard known only as Kirlyo. He used his skills and advised them to travel to a small pass in the east of Harlindon, where he told his hearers that the Warg Riders would pass in the next three weeks.

They travelled to that pass and set up a secret camp there, no fewer than 500 very angry men led by Ragnar, who was hoping to find his daughter. They waited for days but nothing happened. As they were giving up hope, they turned to Kirlyo to ask what they should do. Kirlyo was gone. At this very moment of realisation, they became aware that they were surrounded by fire. As they faced their deaths, they looked upward to the sky and saw Kirlyo laughing at them. His face slowly turned into that evil picture that they all knew; an Orc. It was Sarcroch the sorceror, and he had deceived them.

Just one example of the way the Warg Riders played the game of horror and pain. They enjoyed it immensely.

[SamwiseGamgee]

A great tale, Eomer. We here at The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation have come to expect only the highest standard of literature, and once again we were not disappointed.

Pray tell, Horsemaster, do you know anything of the Wargs who were enslaved by these orcs? Names, histories? Anything would, needless to say, be much appreciated.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'll look right into it, sir. I am pretty sure they were miserable creatures, not unlike your regular Orcs in that regard. Hating life and themselves but unable to do anything about it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

If I have tarried long in fulfilling this promise, I apologise. I just found out how demanding the task of finding Wargish influence in the Filipino culture is. Wargs were once so ingrained in life of the early Filipinos, yet only traces of this fact remain today, like the dwindling settlements of Warg-worshippers in the mountains of Zambales, just a few miles north-west of Manila.

Now, in Tagalog* mythology, the first man, Malakas, and the first woman, Maganda, were imprisoned inside enormous bamboo stalks before being liberated by a wood-pecking bird. The true reason for their confinement remains unknown, but some say that an evil Warg-rider, Masama, with his Warg, Mabangis, were responsible for this. It seems that they envied and feared these creations of the great Warg chief, Bathala, who deemed that the Wargs needed someone to teach, and thus created the two humans.

Under the cover of night, Masama and Mabangis stole into the halls of Bathala, and took captive Malakas and Maganda. When their disappearance was discovered, Bathala ordered his best soldiers to storm the dwelling of Masama. There was a great battle, in which many of Bathala’s warriors were killed, but not before killing Mabangis. Masama, realising his defeat, planted two bamboo stalks into the ground near Malakas and Maganda, and cursed them never to awaken until the race of Wargs have faded. The stalks grew into two huge bamboo trees, using up Masama’s remaining strength to feed themselves. So Masama died, and the battle ended.

Bathala and his people were grieved at the great loss of Wargs, and the incarceration of his creation. Thus they slowly dwindled, until all but a few remained. So was Masama’s curse fulfilled, and Malakas and Maganda were liberated from their bamboo prison.

This is just one of the stories I have managed to trace to its unhappy conclusion, requiring the aid of some Warg experts in the University of the Philippines’ Department of Anthropology, and a few Warg-worshippers who still live in some remote parts in the central region of Luzon.
__________
* Tagalog is one of the main ethnolinguistic groups in the Philippines

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Wondeful Nilpaurion! And I had wondered where you had disappeared off to. No doubt, the time and effort put into your research has been great.

I will comment on the tale in time.