Support Group for...RETURN OF THE KING! - Page 8 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elennar Starfire · 11-27-2003, 01:18 PM

Lookie what I brought! Eye of Sauron toast, and Rohirrim rolls!

Oddwen · 11-27-2003, 08:58 PM

*squeeeeee!* I got my soundtrack and midnight showing tickets yesterday! *enter the HFCD* And my DAD's going, I thought he wasn't! *yay* ONLY 20 DAYS!

Knight of Gondor · 11-28-2003, 09:31 PM

17 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes and about 15 seconds by the time I'm done typing and this goes through.I would have thought there would have been an LotR parade float! Why not??I'm so excited to be getting a costume ready! I'm just working with my sister on it, but she's doing all the work. (For more costume discussion, you could check out my costume thread...)How's everyone holding up? I got Oliphant hors d’ourvers...Did anyone see the Aint It Cool news website? They got to see RotK! They didn't spoil it TOO bad...

Sapphire_Flame · 11-28-2003, 10:41 PM

Sauron toast? Kewl! *grabs a piece*I just got my tickets for opening day! I'm so excited to go see it! Plus, my mom got the fabric and stuff to start my costume. It's gonna be so kewl. Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~EDIT: PS- Oddwen and Elennar, your sigs are so awesome!!! [ 11:42 PM November 28, 2003: Message edited by: Sapphire_Flame ]

Oddwen · 11-28-2003, 11:32 PM

I started on the mockup for my cloak...at last. I've just been reading a [i] [b]SUPER [i] [b] spoiler filled report. Oh, man! The return of the MOTH! And Denethor flies. More I will not say. I am stuffing my mouth with hmmff mfmff mff...

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 11-29-2003, 05:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Because when you actually squeal, it sounds like "squeeee." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, when I squeal it comes out like 'eeeee' (Very high pitched, and it scares the heck out of anyone in the same room ). Read an interesting article debating whether ROTK should win Best Picture or not...basically stocking up on spoilers and reading articles is how I am surviving.The NO Person: 'I've sat through both its dreary predecessors, kept awake only by the deafening volume at which the soundtrack was played...-the ring itself. Has there ever been an object in movie history that has been less worth giving a damn about?...On all levels, The Bored of the Rings falls short...In the Rings battle, it's more "Er who is fighting who again? And remind me what it was all about..."'The YES person: '[FOTR] was pure magic, a three-hour justification for the existence of cinema...No one had any right to expect the second instalment to better the first, and yet it did, in every department. Where FOTR started with a necessarily long, hobbitish exposition ,TTT hurled us straight back into the most memorable episode of its predecessor (the heroes' encounter with the Balrog fire demon) but from a different perspective, in one of the most heart-stoppingly thrilling openings in cinematic history...TTT in particular perfectly demonstrated not just his [PJ's] extraordinary visual nous, but also his willingness to juggle several plot strands and to credit the audience with the intelligence to follow them. Of course this is too demanding for some [lol- a blatent dig at the NO guy]. As before, those with a fun-size IQ, a guppy's attention span and thejoie de vivre of a JFK customs official will be hopelessly lost by ROTK, bless them...' (And so it goes on).

The Human Of Our Time · 11-29-2003, 11:58 AM

I think I'm a person who is squealing in delight for this movie. I just recently got and watched the extended edition of Two Towers and I can't wait for Return of the King! I really want to see how Gollum's fate will be presented on screen.[ 1:05 PM November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Sméagol ]

Meela · 11-29-2003, 03:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And Denethor flies. More I will not say. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Say more. Now.

Sapphire_Flame · 11-29-2003, 03:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>------------------------------------------------------------------------ And Denethor flies. More I will not say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------Say more. Now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ditto. And where did you find these spoilers anyway?Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

Elennar Starfire · 11-29-2003, 06:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> EDIT: PS- Oddwen and Elennar, your sigs are so awesome!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thankies! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> those with a fun-size IQ, a guppy's attention span <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OOOOHHH! Owch! Point for the YES person! *cheers* I must remember that! (I love good insults!)*runs off to bake Rohirrim cookies*

elfearz1 · 11-29-2003, 06:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I started on the mockup for my cloak...at last. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> oooh! post pics or PM the pics when you're done

Oddwen · 11-29-2003, 09:48 PM

It's more like he sails, actually. Aflame. I also really think that Meela will be somewhat disposed to violence towards Gandalf as well. I found them at tolkienonline.com, but I think it's been taken down.I'll have to see about pics, Elfearz. Cameras are not kind to me. I think it's a conspiracy.

mollecon · 11-30-2003, 02:01 AM

Tomorrow folks - I'm gonna reserve tickets for the midnight premiere of RotK on the night between the 16th & 17th.. .

pandora · 11-30-2003, 07:14 AM

RotK will be out here soon and I will not be seeing it. The first two movies were such a crushing disappointment that I simply won't part with any more money to support Jackson's awful version of the characters and story.The films have worked well, very well, as a set of images (with the exception of the casting of Boromir and Aragorn) but the script has been truely pathetic.Return of the King, if the stories are ture, will be another display of Jackson's ignorance of JRRT's meaning as well as his talentlessness as a movie maker.Having read the scene of Gandalf dismissing Saruman last night I can say that any adaptation of Lord of the Rings that does not contain this scene is not actually an adaptation of the book at all. Given the constraints of adapting a book for a movie I could live, reluctantly, without the Scouring of the Shire but the downfall of Saruman is simply a basic element of the book and particularly of the character development of the book. But then, Frodo's biggest development point in the first book was sacrificed at the alter of Jackson's ignorance: we finally see what it is in him that Gandalf sees when he defies the Nazgul alone and unaided. Except that in the film he is rescued instead. Later, instead of taking the burden on himself and leaving the Fellowship he asks Aragorn's advice. Over and over again Jackson has betrayed the central themes and characters of the book for no great purpose. His additions have never improved anything and his choices as a director have been third-rate.The loss of the final part of the story: the Scouring of the Shire shows how little ability Jackson has as a movie-maker, especially when combined with the loss of Saruman's excommunication. Audiences love a good bit of fore-shadowing. Done right, it can really lift people's enjoyment of a film as the events alluded to earlier are finally revealed and explained. In the LotR the best example of this is when Sam sees the damaged shire in the mirror (it's also a subtle characterisation point that Sam continues on dispite this vision, but Jackson's not interested in characterisation). By dropping this, at least partly in favour of the appalling Saurman/Gandalf breakdancing competition, Jackon managed in one fell swoop to undermine the characters, the story, the meaning, and the dramatic tension of the story.The second film had about 10 minutes worth of material that worked, basically the Ents. Everything else was a good slide-show but fell apart as soon as the action started. From the laughable wargs to the dire "Aragon's dead! No, wait a minute-there he is" sub-"plot", to the sudden appearance of the Olympic Torch runner, to the ludicrous charge of the Rohirrim down that huge hill - nay, cliff - onto the waiting pikes of the orcs it was a fiasco.So, no Return of the King for me, thanks. Twice bitten, thrice shy (I'm a slow learner)!

Meela · 11-30-2003, 07:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It's more like he sails, actually. Aflame. I also really think that Meela will be somewhat disposed to violence towards Gandalf as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He sails?? *slaps Gandalf round the face*By sails... do you mean he gets knocked across the room? Or does he sort of leap onto the pyre in a flying sort of way? Or is it at a completely different moment? I'm intrigued! If it's a major spoiler for everyone, could you PM it to me? I really have to have all the details now...

Aethelwine · 11-30-2003, 08:43 AM

*Laughs* Dear Meela, you never seize to amaze me! Now I want to know to!*off-topic* BTW Meela, which Denny do you like most? Book or movie?Well pandora, I'm sorry you feel this way. But ofcourse, we're all entitled to our own opinions. So I'm not trying to talk you into going, I wouldn't want to! But I have to say, seeing as how complex the books are, I think PJ did a great job. But I'm curious, what do think is wrong with the casting of Aragorn and Boromir? In my opinion they were excellent. But I would like to hear your view. Right, I just have to say one ting: It's the final countdown!!!Just 16 days, and then... I'm going to need you all, I'm getting so nervous... I don't know what to feel! Cheers!Aethelwine.

Elennar Starfire · 11-30-2003, 11:35 AM

Hi all, I'm back, and I brought those cookies I promised! *puts down tray of Rohirrim cookies* And since cookies are best with milk, I brought that too!I fell over today when I realized that RotK comes out in only 16 days. I guess it never really clicked in my mind just how close it was until now. I knew, but didn't really react. Now, I am in danger of falling over again at any moment. Except when I'm sitting down at my computer, because I'm too busy typing to fall over. I am quite curious as to Denethor flying, but I want to wait until I see the movie. Please tell everyone who wants to know through PMs.

Meela · 11-30-2003, 03:40 PM

Book or movie Denethor? Both suit me just fine! I think I actually fell in love with him when I read about him (I was reading all I could find about Faramir, and stumbled across him). Then I saw a picture of the film character and that confirmed my affections. Thinking about it, I think I'm more attracted to film Denethor.

pandora · 11-30-2003, 04:08 PM

Casting wise I thought Aragorn and Boromir were the wrong way around: Sean Bean just looks like a Ranger to me. Plus, he has a lot more charisma; in the scenes he shares with Figgy Madeupname I fond myself forgetting that Aragorn is supposed to be the OTHER guy; in fact I found myself forgetting the other guy was there at all! Vigorous Mortislock, or whatever his name is, just looks expendable to me; all he needs is the red jersey.The only other casting issue I had was Sam who seems slightly too spritely to me but he grew on me, unlike the script. It's a moot point now but I wondered if Woods could carry off the "I have come" bit at the end. Ian Holm was just fantastic at that bit and it still sends shivers up my spine when I think about. Woods is perfect for the Frodo that leaves the Shire but I'm not so sure he can do the Frodo that arrives at the Crack of Doom.Talking of Ian Holm, I wonder if Michael Horden would have made a good film Gandalf if he had played the part. When I read the book it's his voice I hear for Gandalf but I think McKellen looks the part better. Plus, of course, McKellen is still alive which makes makeup cheaper (but a higher fee, so maybe it balances out).

Knight of Gondor · 11-30-2003, 09:56 PM

Meela, I finally finished TTT:EE. That sure seemed like a lot of Denethor to me! Didn't it sate your thirst for Denny, at least for now? Pandora, I can sort of see where you are coming from, but I urge you to 1) be careful bad-mouthing the movie here in the support group that we are all having looking forward to the movie and 2) try not to be so harsh on Peter Jackson. Yeah, some of the things he did weren't the best decisions. But I think if you give the guy half a chance, you'll find he had the utmost appreciation for the movie. There are a lot of little details you never see in the movie that prove how much Peter loved the stories.Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, and if you still don't like it, I feel sorry for you. I personally think it is one of the best movies I've ever seen, much less the best adaptation of LotR the world has ever seen. Let me ask you this, then. How would YOU have done better? And not just with casting. Everyone has their own ideas about who should have played whom, I'm talking policy, location, props, plot, etc.?

pandora · 12-01-2003, 02:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Pandora, I can sort of see where you are coming from, but I urge you to 1) be careful bad-mouthing the movie here in the support group that we are all having looking forward to the movie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I know. It just been such a total let-down for me; I was so looking forward to the project before I saw FotR. I get wound up when people are almost literally jumping up and down in excitement about the final installment and then I have to vent! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 2) try not to be so harsh on Peter Jackson. Yeah, some of the things he did weren't the best decisions. But I think if you give the guy half a chance, you'll find he had the utmost appreciation for the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I gave him 2/3rd of a chance. The first film was basically just Bakshi's version re-filmed (including several lines of dialog, an entire scene and a "prologue" all copied from the earlier film but not in the book) so I thought I'd give him a second chance with material that Bakshi hadn't covered in TTT. Alas, without a real fan's work to copy all we got was Jackson's mistakes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> There are a lot of little details you never see in the movie that prove how much Peter loved the stories.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would have liked to have seen them! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I personally think it is one of the best movies I've ever seen, much less the best adaptation of LotR the world has ever seen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think Bakshi did a better job of Fellowship in an hour than Jackson did in 3+. The scene with Frodo, Bilbo, and the Ring stands out as a point where Jackson showed his amateurishness: the Bakshi version is a strong, moving scene of pathos, Jackson's is a silly, badly done cheap shock. Again, Bakshi's battle at Weathertop is actually quite atmospheric and spooky while Jackson's is the Keystone Kops in cloaks (or Kloaks). Basically, dispite being a total mess and a let down, Bakshi's version of the Fellowship is better than Jacksons in almost every scene as regards script and, especially, direction. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> How would YOU have done better? And not just with casting. Everyone has their own ideas about who should have played whom, I'm talking policy, location, props, plot, etc.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd have changed the director. Simple as that. The cinematography, set and costume design, the vast majority of the casting and acting, and locations were superb. Un-beatable I think.The only problem is the director and his total lack of sympathy or understanding for the story's meaning and the characters' development. We don't need Bilbo's bug eyes, Frodo being rescued, Gandalf hiding behind doors in storms and scaring Frodo into an early grave, badly designed wargs, even MORE false deaths, breakdancing wizards with continuity errors, dwarf-tossing jokes, suicidal Elronds, Sauron playing golf, skateboarding elves, horses charging pikes down cliffs, extra bonus orc characters, people being rescued by balrogs, ninja hobbit fighting machines and all the rest of it.Just film the books. Adapt where the medium, budget and time require, but just film the books. Right? Don't try to add things because you ain't no Tolkein.You did ask!But the visuals ARE still terrific.[ 11:52 AM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: pandora ]

Lord Melkor · 12-01-2003, 12:40 PM

Well Meelam since you really want to know I'll tell you what happens to Denethor. *WARNING, HUGE SPOILERS AHEAD, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . .. . .. . .. . . . . . . . . . .1. When Denethor is on fire he runs around, through the courtyard with the White Tree and finally hurls himself from the tower to a grissly death while he's still burning.2. When the attack on Minas Tirith begins Denethor starts going crazy until Gandalf knocks him out and takes charge of things.At least that's what I read at tolkienonline.com from a guy who claims he saw the movie as a preview.[ 1:41 PM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lord Melkor ][ 1:42 PM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lord Melkor ]

Sapphire_Flame · 12-01-2003, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The first film was basically just Bakshi's version re-filmed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> *raises an eyebrow* Excuse me? My dear, I've seen the Bakshi version, and these are nothing like the Bakshi version. When PJ brings something up (i.e. Narsil), he follows it up with explanation as to why it is important later, instead of just letting it hang. And, if you didn't notice, PJ actually finished making the movies. Or couldn't you tell that the Bakshi one stopped halfway through? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are a lot of little details you never see in the movie that prove how much Peter loved the stories. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I would have liked to have seen them! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You evidently aren't paying enough attention. *Note: I hate to be supporting this scene, but here it goes.* Remember those rather ill-placed scenes of Arwen in Rivendell? Much of that dialogue, especially on Elrond's part, was directly from the Appendicies in RotK. If you've actually read the Books thoroughly, including the Appendicies, you can find many interesting references to other parts of the story, and even to passages in Silm and UT. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think Bakshi did a better job of Fellowship in an hour than Jackson did in 3+.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ... Just what is going on in your little mind? The Bakshi version is awful. Okay, it gets points for being amusing, but still; it left out so many parts of the story, some of which PJ left in, I might add, and some of the changes were absolutely horrendous. Like how they evidently didn't think that the actual story would hold people's attention, and so added superfluous special effects and background paintings, which were more annoying than mood-setting.I think you need to give PJ a little more credit. It would be incredibly hard to film the Books exactly; and PJ did the best he could. Sure, some of his alterations weren't the best, but he did what he thought would appeal to the audience. I'll admit, I'm annoyed about a few of the changes myself, such as the removal of the Scouring from the next movie, but I do acknowledge that it takes a lot of work to bring such a deep and complex work of literature to the screen, and so some allowance should be given. Some of the changes were, in fact, just pieces that were exposition in the novel, and exposition is incredibly hard to transfer to film, not only in making it sound correct, but in holding the audience's attention.I personally think PJ could have done a better job on some parts than he did. But I also think he did some scenes brilliantly, and that he really did stay true to the feel of Tolkien.You can cry and moan about it all you want, pandora, just don't do it here. This thread is for people who enjoy the Movies, not those who hate them.Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

pandora · 12-01-2003, 01:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Excuse me? My dear, I've seen the Bakshi version, and these are nothing like the Bakshi version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> THESE aren't, the first one is. The scene in Bree with the Nazgul and the beds is a direct lift from Bakshi despite not being in the book, the opening is another direct lift which Bakshi needed because of the failure to get the film finished, and various parts of Sam's dialog are lifted from the animated version. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Or couldn't you tell that the Bakshi one stopped halfway through? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I spotted that in the cinema. The audience was non-plussed to say the least! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Remember those rather ill-placed scenes of Arwen in Rivendell? Much of that dialogue, especially on Elrond's part, was directly from the Appendicies in RotK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PJ's version of Elrond gives me more trouble than Arwen (apart from the Ford). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Bakshi version is awful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it was. I think it was better, but still awful apart from the voice-acting which was very good. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Like how they evidently didn't think that the actual story would hold people's attention, and so added superfluous special effects and background paintings, which were more annoying than mood-setting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, I generally agree, although the special effects did a much better job of conveying a mystical struggle between Saurman and Gandalf than the version in PJ, which must rank as one of the worst scenes in any film ever made.Another place where Bakshi's mess managed to come together was the nazgul. There the strange backgrounds worked well for evoking their desolate world. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sure, some of his alterations weren't the best, but he did what he thought would appeal to the audience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where PJ sticks to the book he succeeds and succeeds well. Where he diverges he fails every time. As you say, exposition and long speeches are never going to make it into a film version that has a chance of getting funding but there's still no need for the balrog sequence to have been so long and then slaughter Lorien to get it squeezed in at the end of the film. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You can cry and moan about it all you want, pandora, just don't do it here. This thread is for people who enjoy the Movies, not those who hate them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fair enough. Just pointing at the Emperor's clothes.

Jjudvven · 12-01-2003, 02:16 PM

I found the parts that I liked the most from the movies so far were the parts that were done straight from the book. I'm hoping the third installment of the Trilogy will have more moments like that from the book. I find myself looking forward to it, no matter what doubts I have about it. Although I am extremely annoyed about PJ leaving out the scouring of the Shire. I heard that there is much less with elf-girl Arwen, which is a great relief to me.

Meela · 12-01-2003, 03:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Meela, I finally finished TTT:EE. That sure seemed like a lot of Denethor to me! Didn't it sate your thirst for Denny, at least for now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. I need more. Now. Now, I say!

Sapphire_Flame · 12-01-2003, 04:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The scene in Bree with the Nazgul and the beds is a direct lift from Bakshi despite not being in the book,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just because Tolkien didn't describe it, doesn't mean it didn't happen in the Books. I thought the scene was well-placed, and a chance to get in a bit of exposition without sounding silly. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the opening is another direct lift which Bakshi needed because of the failure to get the film finished,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What Tolkien-based film wouldn't need a prologue? Even the Books have one. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and various parts of Sam's dialog are lifted from the animated version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Such as what? All the bits I noticed as coinciding happened to come from the Books as well. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PJ's version of Elrond gives me more trouble than Arwen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Fair enough. I actually find them equally irritating, and so skip most of the scenes involving them. One thing I found particularly annoying about Fellowship was Arwen's usurping of Glorfindel's part. A mistake shared by the Bakshi version I might add, with Glorfindel being preempted by Legolas. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Again, I generally agree, although the special effects did a much better job of conveying a mystical struggle between Saurman and Gandalf than the version in PJ, which must rank as one of the worst scenes in any film ever made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I actually thought PJ's version was rather amusing... I just think it's rather stupid of the Bakshi artists to think that if something is magic it has to be bright and sparkly. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Another place where Bakshi's mess managed to come together was the nazgul.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm always inclined to laugh at the Nazgul. They act like escapees from a leper colony. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where PJ sticks to the book he succeeds and succeeds well. Where he diverges he fails every time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's really hard to argue with that, so I won't. I'll just say that for some people, the changes are less appalling than they are to others. Like, I really can't handle the whole warg attack and "death" of Aragorn, and some people thought the scene was well done and enjoyed it. It depends on the person, and how much of a purist they are. Oh, and to those interested, <A HREF="http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/bakshi/bakshi.htm" TARGET=_blank>*here*</A> is an interesting look at Bakshi's LotR. Good for a laugh. Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

pandora · 12-01-2003, 05:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just because Tolkien didn't describe it, doesn't mean it didn't happen in the Books. I thought the scene was well-placed, and a chance to get in a bit of exposition without sounding silly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, yes: it's a good scene but the fact is that the Jackson was a straight copy; given that a certain amount of scorn was poured on earlier attempts (and can you think of another?) this seemed a bit dishonest. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What Tolkien-based film wouldn't need a prologue?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think it needs a prologue and I don't find the one in the Book particularly good (nor did JRRT for that matter). Without the one in the films the story regains its brilliant musical flow from the light, carefree world of the hobbits gradually through more and more moments of discord to the dark, deep, brassy notes of the mountains of Mordor (in the book even the vocabulary changes from the start to the end; the words themselves get heavier as Frodo struggles with the ring). The prologue just confuses this and all the material in it that was needed could have been in Elrond's flashback. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Such as what? All the bits I noticed as coinciding happened to come from the Books as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd have to re-watch both versions now. I did notice a few lines when FotR came out and I did check them but that was quite a while ago now. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> One thing I found particularly annoying about Fellowship was Arwen's usurping of Glorfindel's part. A mistake shared by the Bakshi version I might add, with Glorfindel being preempted by Legolas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, that's fim adaptations for you: characters get compressed into each other. The real flaw was undermining Frodo's bravery by not allowing him to face down the nazgul alone. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I just think it's rather stupid of the Bakshi artists to think that if something is magic it has to be bright and sparkly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe but at least it was a subtle evokation of struggling wills, not "I'm a great wizard; eat knuckles you old fool". <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm always inclined to laugh at the Nazgul. They act like escapees from a leper colony. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As opposed to PJ's highly inflammable clowns? "'Ere, Gothmog. Fancy a smoke?" "Yeah, thanks, Khamul." *WOOF* "Ah ah ah ah ah" <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Oh, and to those interested, *here* is an interesting look at Bakshi's LotR. Good for a laugh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I found that a few years ago; it's very good. But Bakshi still did a better job. Especially given his circumstances.

Sapphire_Flame · 12-02-2003, 01:54 PM

Uh-huh, yeah, whatever. If you have such a thing against PJ's movies, what are you even doing here? Just drop it and go away; let those who appreciate the films do so in peace.~*~Aranel~*~

mollecon · 12-02-2003, 02:19 PM

Got my tickets for the midnight premiere!

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-02-2003, 03:19 PM

Pandora, I largely disagree with you on the question of the merits of the LotR films as adaptations of Tolkien's works. I am not going to take issue with the many points that you raise, for I have expressed my views on numerous occasions elsewhere in this forum. In the final analysis, these types of issue come down to personal taste.But there are two points on which I feel that your comments have gone beyond the scope of personal opinion.First: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ... how little ability Jackson has as a movie-maker <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jackson has brought to the screen a literary masterpiece which has traditionally been regarded as unfilmable. And, in doing so, he has made films which have brought great acclaim, amongst both film critics and his peers in the industry. They are also films which have been incredibly successful at the box office. Millions upon millions of people have been to see them, the vast majority of whom have enjoyed them immensely. The first two films have won numerous awards, and both RotK and Jackson himself are now in with a reasonable chance of winning Oscars. Surely, by no stretch of the imagination, can Jackson be regarded as a film-maker with little ability, whatever your personal opinion of these films might be.Secondly: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Just pointing at the Emperor's clothes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By this comment, you are implying that those of us here who enjoy the films only do so because we are "going along with the crowd". On the contrary, however, the vast majority, if not all, of those who post here are perfectly capable of making up their own minds about these films, and do not need to rely upon others to help them form their views. I therefore find this comment rather surprising, particularly on a thread devoted to those who are looking forward with great anticipation to the final instalment of this trilogy of films.

Sapphire_Flame · 12-02-2003, 08:47 PM

Hear hear, Saucepan! Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

Finwe · 12-03-2003, 11:42 AM

Sure, pandora, Bakshi did a much better job. At least PJ's Balrog didn't wear fluffy black bedroom slippers! Give him some credit for his efforts.

mollecon · 12-03-2003, 12:58 PM

Thx, Saucepanman

pandora · 12-03-2003, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> At least PJ's Balrog didn't wear fluffy black bedroom slippers! Give him some credit for his efforts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But his Balrog didn't save the Fellowship from certain death. Once again Jackson's technical achievements (the visuals) beat Bakshi hands down while Bakshi's direction and understanding of the story is superior.That's my last word on this thread; it is the wrong place for it and I'm sorry my venting get the better of me. My cat was killed today and it has reminded me that there are more important things than raining on someone's parade, regardless of how strongly I feel about it.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 12-03-2003, 05:17 PM

Aww, commiserations for your poor cat.I personally found the Bakshi version intolerable. I couldn't sit through more than 15 minutes of it at a time...I still haven't got all the way through. And I don't bore easily.Anyway....we're getting there! Two weeks!!! Does anyone know when the London premiere is?! (Doubt I'll be able to go to stand and scream, but I'd like to know when it is at least). I thought it was on the 11th, only the Berlin one is on the 10th...

Sapphire_Flame · 12-03-2003, 06:02 PM

Ah, good, the thread can get back to normal...I'm so excited! Only two weeks left! I was listening to the soundtrack at school all day today. *sigh* Prettyful music... And my mom is starting on my costume too! It's gonna be so great! *squeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!*Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

Orominuialwen · 12-03-2003, 07:18 PM

I seem to have missed a whole lot here!! Anyway, I'd like to comment on some of the stuff pandora has said. But first, pandora, if you do come back here, I believe I may have met you, or someone a whole lot like you in real life. Would you happen to know who Herman is and what color he is? (if that made no sense, then just ignore me ) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the script has been truely pathetic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Personally, I loved the script. Certain parts of it, especially Aragorn's speech in the RotK trailer, remind me immensly ofThe Charge of the Light Brigade, which is one of my favorite pieces of poetry. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> We don't need Bilbo's bug eyes, Frodo being rescued, Gandalf hiding behind doors in storms and scaring Frodo into an early grave, badly designed wargs, even MORE false deaths, breakdancing wizards with continuity errors, dwarf-tossing jokes, suicidal Elronds, Sauron playing golf, skateboarding elves, horses charging pikes down cliffs, extra bonus orc characters, people being rescued by balrogs, ninja hobbit fighting machines and all the rest of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh??? Anyway, if you think PJ version of LotR is bad, you haven't seen a whole lot of the movies that are out there. The vast majority of stuff is utter drivel. In my opinion, LotR is the best movie I've seen in my entire life, and I seriously doubt that anything that even comes close will ever be made. There, I'm done with my ranting. And I'm very sorry about your cat. On a new topic, there was a brief 45 sec. thing on LotR tonight, and there is supposed to be a big special on it tomorrow!!! I finally saw TTT:EE on Saturday!! *squeeeeeee* 'Twas wonderful! Hmmm, lets see. Oh, I saw a guy at my school walking down the hall with the word squee written on the back of his shirt. I tried to follow him, but I only succeeded in losing him in the crowd and making myself late for algebra. My dad is going to get me the soudtrack, but he said the store didn't have it. He doesn't seem to realize how imporant it is to me!! Also, he keeps putting off getting tickets for the 17th, WHEN IT'S ONLY 2 WEEKS OFF!!!I really reallydon't want it to be sold out like the trilogy was. My best guy friend says he wants to go see RotK with my brother and me on the 17th, but he says if we wear costumes, he'll sit on the other side of the theater (I'm pretty sure he's only joking, though ) I'm gonna wear my halloween costume that wasn't ready in time for Halloween -- Éowyn's white dress. My little brother's going in his Frodo costume- he looks uncannily like Elijah Wood. I'll try to post a picture afterwards if my mom will allow it, although she may not. If I do have a picture, it wil go <A HREF="http://breeunderbreehill.com/barrow_downs_members.htm" TARGET=_blank>here</A>.Namarië one and all!EDIT: Wow, this must be one of my longest posts!!![ 8:21 PM December 03, 2003: Message edited by: Orominuialwen ]

Elennar Starfire · 12-03-2003, 08:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The first film was basically just Bakshi's version re-filmed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I noticed that some things were very similar, indeed, almost identical, but there was also much that was different. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The only problem is the director and his total lack of sympathy or understanding for the story's meaning and the characters' development. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why are directors always blamed for the mistakes in movies? People need to learn the difference between script writers and directors. Directors only decide how to film the scenes that are written in the script. With a bad script, the movie will be bad no matter how good the director is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> suicidal Elronds, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Erm, how exactly is Elrond suicidal? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> One thing I found particularly annoying about Fellowship was Arwen's usurping of Glorfindel's part. A mistake shared by the Bakshi version I might add, with Glorfindel being preempted by Legolas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role was a bit better than Legolas, because Arwen at least lives in Rivendell. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Ah, good, the thread can get back to normal... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry!

Sapphire_Flame · 12-04-2003, 01:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think that Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role was a bit better than Legolas, because Arwen at least lives in Rivendell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah. I thought that made more sense as well! *squeeeee!* Only 13 days left! And then there's that big special on tonight; I can't wait to see it!!! *skips around in hyper-insane-excitedness*Oh, and I brought entdraught! Have some, it's really good. Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

11-27-2003, 01:18 PM	#281
Elennar Starfire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere...now here Posts: 952	Lookie what I brought! Eye of Sauron toast, and Rohirrim rolls! __________________ Don't let me die!

11-27-2003, 08:58 PM	#282
Oddwen Drummer in the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Next Sunday A.D. Posts: 2,145	squeeeeee! I got my soundtrack and midnight showing tickets yesterday! enter the HFCD And my DAD's going, I thought he wasn't! yay<BR>ONLY 20 DAYS! __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

11-28-2003, 09:31 PM	#283
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	17 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes and about 15 seconds by the time I'm done typing and this goes through.<P>I would have thought there would have been an LotR parade float! Why not??<P>I'm so excited to be getting a costume ready! I'm just working with my sister on it, but she's doing all the work. (For more costume discussion, you could check out my costume thread...)<P>How's everyone holding up? I got Oliphant hors d’ourvers...<P>Did anyone see the Aint It Cool news website? They got to see RotK! They didn't spoil it TOO bad... __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-28-2003, 10:41 PM	#284
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	Sauron toast? Kewl! grabs a piece<P>I just got my tickets for opening day! I'm so excited to go see it! Plus, my mom got the fabric and stuff to start my costume. It's gonna be so kewl. <P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~<P>EDIT: PS- Oddwen and Elennar, your sigs are so awesome!!! <p>[ 11:42 PM November 28, 2003: Message edited by: Sapphire_Flame ] __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

11-28-2003, 11:32 PM	#285
Oddwen Drummer in the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Next Sunday A.D. Posts: 2,145	I started on the mockup for my cloak...at last. <P>I've just been reading a [i] [b]SUPER [i] [b] spoiler filled report. Oh, man! The return of the MOTH!<BR>And Denethor flies. More I will not say. I am stuffing my mouth with hmmff mfmff mff... __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

11-29-2003, 05:27 AM	#286
Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon...or England Posts: 364	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Because when you actually squeal, it sounds like "squeeee." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, when I squeal it comes out like 'eeeee' (Very high pitched, and it scares the heck out of anyone in the same room ).<BR>Read an interesting article debating whether ROTK should win Best Picture or not...basically stocking up on spoilers and reading articles is how I am surviving.<P>The NO Person:<BR>'I've sat through both its dreary predecessors, kept awake only by the deafening volume at which the soundtrack was played...-the ring itself. Has there ever been an object in movie history that has been less worth giving a damn about?...On all levels, <I>The Bored of the Rings</I> falls short...In the Rings battle, it's more "Er who is fighting who again? And remind me what it was all about..."'<P>The YES person:<BR>'[FOTR] was pure magic, a three-hour justification for the existence of cinema...No one had any right to expect the second instalment to better the first, and yet it did, in every department. Where FOTR started with a necessarily long, hobbitish exposition ,TTT hurled us straight back into the most memorable episode of its predecessor (the heroes' encounter with the Balrog fire demon) but from a different perspective, in one of the most heart-stoppingly thrilling openings in cinematic history...TTT in particular perfectly demonstrated not just his [PJ's] extraordinary visual nous, but also his willingness to juggle several plot strands and to credit the audience with the intelligence to follow them.<BR>Of course this is too demanding for some [lol- a blatent dig at the NO guy]. As before, those with a fun-size IQ, a guppy's attention span and the<I>joie de vivre</I> of a JFK customs official will be hopelessly lost by ROTK, bless them...' (And so it goes on). __________________ '"Forweg can lead you no longer; for he is dead...I slew him...I will govern this fellowship now, or leave it." "As it was when he joined us, so it is again. He kills to make room."'

11-29-2003, 11:58 AM	#287
The Human Of Our Time Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: South Wales UK Posts: 13	I think I'm a person who is squealing in delight for this movie. I just recently got and watched the extended edition of Two Towers and I can't wait for Return of the King! I really want to see how Gollum's fate will be presented on screen.<p>[ 1:05 PM November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Sméagol ]

11-29-2003, 03:11 PM	#288
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And Denethor flies. More I will not say. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Say more. Now. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

11-29-2003, 03:45 PM	#289
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>And Denethor flies. More I will not say. <BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Say more. Now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ditto. And where did you find these spoilers anyway?<P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

11-29-2003, 06:09 PM	#290
Elennar Starfire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere...now here Posts: 952	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> EDIT: PS- Oddwen and Elennar, your sigs are so awesome!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thankies!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> those with a fun-size IQ, a guppy's attention span <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OOOOHHH! Owch! Point for the YES person! cheers I must remember that! (I love good insults!)<P>runs off to bake Rohirrim cookies __________________ Don't let me die!

11-29-2003, 06:51 PM	#291
elfearz1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 259	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I started on the mockup for my cloak...at last. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>oooh! post pics or PM the pics when you're done __________________ I didn't eat Merry, i just ate his waistcoat!-Horse maidens dream 915/920 miles. On my way to Lothlorien! ^^Elfearz^^

11-29-2003, 09:48 PM	#292
Oddwen Drummer in the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Next Sunday A.D. Posts: 2,145	It's more like he sails, actually. Aflame. I also really think that Meela will be somewhat disposed to violence towards Gandalf as well. <P>I found them at tolkienonline.com, but I think it's been taken down.<P>I'll have to see about pics, Elfearz. Cameras are not kind to me. I think it's a conspiracy. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

11-30-2003, 02:01 AM	#293
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Tomorrow folks - I'm gonna reserve tickets for the midnight premiere of RotK on the night between the 16th & 17th.. .

11-30-2003, 07:14 AM	#294
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	RotK will be out here soon and I will not be seeing it. The first two movies were such a crushing disappointment that I simply won't part with any more money to support Jackson's awful version of the characters and story.<P>The films have worked well, very well, as a set of images (with the exception of the casting of Boromir and Aragorn) but the script has been truely pathetic.<P>Return of the King, if the stories are ture, will be another display of Jackson's ignorance of JRRT's meaning as well as his talentlessness as a movie maker.<P>Having read the scene of Gandalf dismissing Saruman last night I can say that any adaptation of Lord of the Rings that does not contain this scene is not actually an adaptation of the book at all. Given the constraints of adapting a book for a movie I could live, reluctantly, without the Scouring of the Shire but the downfall of Saruman is simply a basic element of the book and particularly of the character development of the book. <P>But then, Frodo's biggest development point in the first book was sacrificed at the alter of Jackson's ignorance: we finally see what it is in him that Gandalf sees when he defies the Nazgul alone and unaided. Except that in the film he is rescued instead. Later, instead of taking the burden on himself and leaving the Fellowship he asks Aragorn's advice. Over and over again Jackson has betrayed the central themes and characters of the book for no great purpose. <P>His additions have never improved anything and his choices as a director have been third-rate.<P>The loss of the final part of the story: the Scouring of the Shire shows how little ability Jackson has as a movie-maker, especially when combined with the loss of Saruman's excommunication. Audiences love a good bit of fore-shadowing. Done right, it can really lift people's enjoyment of a film as the events alluded to earlier are finally revealed and explained. In the LotR the best example of this is when Sam sees the damaged shire in the mirror (it's also a subtle characterisation point that Sam continues on dispite this vision, but Jackson's not interested in characterisation). By dropping this, at least partly in favour of the appalling Saurman/Gandalf breakdancing competition, Jackon managed in one fell swoop to undermine the characters, the story, the meaning, and the dramatic tension of the story.<P>The second film had about 10 minutes worth of material that worked, basically the Ents. Everything else was a good slide-show but fell apart as soon as the action started. From the laughable wargs to the dire "Aragon's dead! No, wait a minute-there he is" sub-"plot", to the sudden appearance of the Olympic Torch runner, to the ludicrous charge of the Rohirrim down that huge hill - nay, cliff - onto the waiting pikes of the orcs it was a fiasco.<P>So, no Return of the King for me, thanks. Twice bitten, thrice shy (I'm a slow learner)!

11-30-2003, 07:54 AM	#295
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It's more like he sails, actually. Aflame. I also really think that Meela will be somewhat disposed to violence towards Gandalf as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He sails?? <P>slaps Gandalf round the face<P>By sails... do you mean he gets knocked across the room? Or does he sort of leap onto the pyre in a flying sort of way? Or is it at a completely different moment?<BR>I'm intrigued! If it's a major spoiler for everyone, could you PM it to me? I really have to have all the details now... __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

11-30-2003, 08:43 AM	#296
Aethelwine Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In Anórien, just outside Edoras, on a horse I "borrowed"... Posts: 150	Laughs Dear <B>Meela</B>, you never seize to amaze me! <BR>Now I want to know to!<P>off-topic BTW Meela, which Denny do you like most? Book or movie?<P>Well <B>pandora</B>, I'm sorry you feel this way. But ofcourse, we're all entitled to our own opinions. So I'm not trying to talk you into going, I wouldn't want to! But I have to say, seeing as how complex the books are, I think PJ did a great job. <BR>But I'm curious, what do think is wrong with the casting of Aragorn and Boromir? In my opinion they were excellent. But I would like to hear your view. <P>Right, I just have to say one ting: <B>It's the final countdown!!!</B>Just 16 days, and then...<BR>I'm going to need you all, I'm getting so nervous... I don't know what to feel! <P>Cheers!<P>Aethelwine. __________________ Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind--not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. - Catherine to Nelly, Wuthering Heights

11-30-2003, 11:35 AM	#297
Elennar Starfire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere...now here Posts: 952	Hi all, I'm back, and I brought those cookies I promised! puts down tray of Rohirrim cookies And since cookies are best with milk, I brought that too!<P>I fell over today when I realized that RotK comes out in only 16 days. I guess it never really clicked in my mind just how close it was until now. I knew, but didn't really react. Now, I am in danger of falling over again at any moment. Except when I'm sitting down at my computer, because I'm too busy typing to fall over. <P>I am quite curious as to Denethor flying, but I want to wait until I see the movie. Please tell everyone who wants to know through PMs. __________________ Don't let me die!

11-30-2003, 03:40 PM	#298
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Book or movie Denethor? Both suit me just fine! I think I actually fell in love with him when I read about him (I was reading all I could find about Faramir, and stumbled across him). Then I saw a picture of the film character and that confirmed my affections.<BR>Thinking about it, I think I'm more attracted to film Denethor. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

11-30-2003, 04:08 PM	#299
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	Casting wise I thought Aragorn and Boromir were the wrong way around: Sean Bean just looks like a Ranger to me. Plus, he has a lot more charisma; in the scenes he shares with Figgy Madeupname I fond myself forgetting that Aragorn is supposed to be the OTHER guy; in fact I found myself forgetting the other guy was there at all! Vigorous Mortislock, or whatever his name is, just looks expendable to me; all he needs is the red jersey.<P>The only other casting issue I had was Sam who seems slightly too spritely to me but he grew on me, unlike the script. It's a moot point now but I wondered if Woods could carry off the "I have come" bit at the end. Ian Holm was just fantastic at that bit and it still sends shivers up my spine when I think about. Woods is perfect for the Frodo that leaves the Shire but I'm not so sure he can do the Frodo that arrives at the Crack of Doom.<P>Talking of Ian Holm, I wonder if Michael Horden would have made a good film Gandalf if he had played the part. When I read the book it's his voice I hear for Gandalf but I think McKellen looks the part better. Plus, of course, McKellen is still alive which makes makeup cheaper (but a higher fee, so maybe it balances out).

11-30-2003, 09:56 PM	#300
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Meela, I finally finished TTT:EE. That sure seemed like a lot of Denethor to me! Didn't it sate your thirst for Denny, at least for now? <P>Pandora, I can sort of see where you are coming from, but I urge you to 1) be careful bad-mouthing the movie here in the support group that we are all having looking forward to the movie and 2) try not to be so harsh on Peter Jackson. Yeah, some of the things he did weren't the best decisions. But I think if you give the guy half a chance, you'll find he had the utmost appreciation for the movie. There are a lot of little details you never see in the movie that prove how much Peter loved the stories.<P>Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, and if you still don't like it, I feel sorry for you. I personally think it is one of the best movies I've ever seen, much less the best adaptation of LotR the world has ever seen. Let me ask you this, then. How would YOU have done better? And not just with casting. Everyone has their own ideas about who should have played whom, I'm talking policy, location, props, plot, etc.? __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

12-01-2003, 02:52 AM	#301
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Pandora, I can sort of see where you are coming from, but I urge you to 1) be careful bad-mouthing the movie here in the support group that we are all having looking forward to the movie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I know. It just been such a total let-down for me; I was so looking forward to the project before I saw FotR. I get wound up when people are almost literally jumping up and down in excitement about the final installment and then I have to vent!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 2) try not to be so harsh on Peter Jackson. Yeah, some of the things he did weren't the best decisions. But I think if you give the guy half a chance, you'll find he had the utmost appreciation for the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I gave him 2/3rd of a chance. The first film was basically just Bakshi's version re-filmed (including several lines of dialog, an entire scene and a "prologue" all copied from the earlier film but not in the book) so I thought I'd give him a second chance with material that Bakshi hadn't covered in TTT. Alas, without a real fan's work to copy all we got was Jackson's mistakes.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> There are a lot of little details you never see in the movie that prove how much Peter loved the stories.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would have liked to have seen them!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I personally think it is one of the best movies I've ever seen, much less the best adaptation of LotR the world has ever seen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think Bakshi did a better job of Fellowship in an hour than Jackson did in 3+. The scene with Frodo, Bilbo, and the Ring stands out as a point where Jackson showed his amateurishness: the Bakshi version is a strong, moving scene of pathos, Jackson's is a silly, badly done cheap shock. Again, Bakshi's battle at Weathertop is actually quite atmospheric and spooky while Jackson's is the Keystone Kops in cloaks (or Kloaks). <P>Basically, dispite being a total mess and a let down, Bakshi's version of the Fellowship is better than Jacksons in almost every scene as regards script and, especially, direction.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> How would YOU have done better? And not just with casting. Everyone has their own ideas about who should have played whom, I'm talking policy, location, props, plot, etc.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd have changed the director. Simple as that. The cinematography, set and costume design, the vast majority of the casting and acting, and locations were superb. Un-beatable I think.<P>The only problem is the director and his total lack of sympathy or understanding for the story's meaning and the characters' development. We don't need Bilbo's bug eyes, Frodo being rescued, Gandalf hiding behind doors in storms and scaring Frodo into an early grave, badly designed wargs, even MORE false deaths, breakdancing wizards with continuity errors, dwarf-tossing jokes, suicidal Elronds, Sauron playing golf, skateboarding elves, horses charging pikes down cliffs, extra bonus orc characters, people being rescued by balrogs, ninja hobbit fighting machines and all the rest of it.<P>Just film the books. Adapt where the medium, budget and time require, but just film the books. Right? Don't try to add things because you ain't no Tolkein.<P>You did ask!<P>But the visuals ARE still terrific.<p>[ 11:52 AM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: pandora ]

12-01-2003, 12:40 PM	#302
Lord Melkor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 78	Well Meelam since you really want to know I'll tell you what happens to Denethor. <P>WARNING, HUGE SPOILERS AHEAD, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>. <BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>. <BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<P>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<P>.<BR>.<BR>.<P >.<BR>.<BR>.<P>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR> .<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<P>1. When Denethor is on fire he runs around, through the courtyard with the White Tree and finally hurls himself from the tower to a grissly death while he's still burning.<P>2. When the attack on Minas Tirith begins Denethor starts going crazy until Gandalf knocks him out and takes charge of things.<P>At least that's what I read at tolkienonline.com from a guy who claims he saw the movie as a preview.<P>[ 1:41 PM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lord Melkor ]<p>[ 1:42 PM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lord Melkor ] __________________ 'I am the Elder king: Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will.'

12-01-2003, 01:00 PM	#303
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The first film was basically just Bakshi's version re-filmed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>raises an eyebrow Excuse me? My dear, I've seen the Bakshi version, and these are nothing like the Bakshi version. When PJ brings something up (i.e. Narsil), he follows it up with explanation as to why it is important later, instead of just letting it hang. And, if you didn't notice, PJ actually finished making the movies. Or couldn't you tell that the Bakshi one stopped halfway through?<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR> There are a lot of little details you never see in the movie that prove how much Peter loved the stories.<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>I would have liked to have seen them!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You evidently aren't paying enough attention. Note: I hate to be supporting this scene, but here it goes. Remember those rather ill-placed scenes of Arwen in Rivendell? Much of that dialogue, especially on Elrond's part, was directly from the Appendicies in RotK. If you've actually read the Books thoroughly, including the Appendicies, you can find many interesting references to other parts of the story, and even to passages in Silm and UT.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think Bakshi did a better job of Fellowship in an hour than Jackson did in 3+.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>... Just what is going on in your little mind? The Bakshi version is awful. Okay, it gets points for being amusing, but still; it left out so many parts of the story, some of which PJ left in, I might add, and some of the changes were absolutely horrendous. Like how they evidently didn't think that the actual story would hold people's attention, and so added superfluous special effects and background paintings, which were more annoying than mood-setting.<P>I think you need to give PJ a little more credit. It would be incredibly hard to film the Books exactly; and PJ did the best he could. Sure, some of his alterations weren't the best, but he did what he thought would appeal to the audience. I'll admit, I'm annoyed about a few of the changes myself, such as the removal of the Scouring from the next movie, but I do acknowledge that it takes a lot of work to bring such a deep and complex work of literature to the screen, and so some allowance should be given. Some of the changes were, in fact, just pieces that were exposition in the novel, and exposition is incredibly hard to transfer to film, not only in making it sound correct, but in holding the audience's attention.<P>I personally think PJ could have done a better job on some parts than he did. But I also think he did some scenes brilliantly, and that he really did stay true to the feel of Tolkien.<P>You can cry and moan about it all you want, <B>pandora</B>, just don't do it here. This thread is for people who enjoy the Movies, not those who hate them.<P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

12-01-2003, 01:27 PM	#304
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Excuse me? My dear, I've seen the Bakshi version, and these are nothing like the Bakshi version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>THESE aren't, the first one is. The scene in Bree with the Nazgul and the beds is a direct lift from Bakshi despite not being in the book, the opening is another direct lift which Bakshi needed because of the failure to get the film finished, and various parts of Sam's dialog are lifted from the animated version. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Or couldn't you tell that the Bakshi one stopped halfway through? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I spotted that in the cinema. The audience was non-plussed to say the least!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Remember those rather ill-placed scenes of Arwen in Rivendell? Much of that dialogue, especially on Elrond's part, was directly from the Appendicies in RotK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>PJ's version of Elrond gives me more trouble than Arwen (apart from the Ford).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Bakshi version is awful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it was. I think it was better, but still awful apart from the voice-acting which was very good.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Like how they evidently didn't think that the actual story would hold people's attention, and so added superfluous special effects and background paintings, which were more annoying than mood-setting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I generally agree, although the special effects did a much better job of conveying a mystical struggle between Saurman and Gandalf than the version in PJ, which must rank as one of the worst scenes in any film ever made.<P>Another place where Bakshi's mess managed to come together was the nazgul. There the strange backgrounds worked well for evoking their desolate world.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sure, some of his alterations weren't the best, but he did what he thought would appeal to the audience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Where PJ sticks to the book he succeeds and succeeds well. Where he diverges he fails every time. As you say, exposition and long speeches are never going to make it into a film version that has a chance of getting funding but there's still no need for the balrog sequence to have been so long and then slaughter Lorien to get it squeezed in at the end of the film. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You can cry and moan about it all you want, pandora, just don't do it here. This thread is for people who enjoy the Movies, not those who hate them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Fair enough. Just pointing at the Emperor's clothes.

12-01-2003, 02:16 PM	#305
Jjudvven Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Land to the West Posts: 154	I found the parts that I liked the most from the movies so far were the parts that were done straight from the book. I'm hoping the third installment of the Trilogy will have more moments like that from the book. I find myself looking forward to it, no matter what doubts I have about it. Although I am extremely annoyed about PJ leaving out the scouring of the Shire. I heard that there is much less with elf-girl Arwen, which is a great relief to me. __________________ "I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."

12-01-2003, 03:51 PM	#306
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Meela, I finally finished TTT:EE. That sure seemed like a lot of Denethor to me! Didn't it sate your thirst for Denny, at least for now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. I need more. Now. <I>Now</I>, I say! __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

12-01-2003, 04:17 PM	#307
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The scene in Bree with the Nazgul and the beds is a direct lift from Bakshi despite not being in the book,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just because Tolkien didn't describe it, doesn't mean it didn't happen in the Books. I thought the scene was well-placed, and a chance to get in a bit of exposition without sounding silly.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the opening is another direct lift which Bakshi needed because of the failure to get the film finished,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What Tolkien-based film <I>wouldn't</I> need a prologue? Even the Books have one.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and various parts of Sam's dialog are lifted from the animated version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Such as what? All the bits I noticed as coinciding happened to come from the Books as well.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PJ's version of Elrond gives me more trouble than Arwen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Fair enough. I actually find them equally irritating, and so skip most of the scenes involving them. One thing I found particularly annoying about Fellowship was Arwen's usurping of Glorfindel's part. A mistake shared by the Bakshi version I might add, with Glorfindel being preempted by Legolas.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Again, I generally agree, although the special effects did a much better job of conveying a mystical struggle between Saurman and Gandalf than the version in PJ, which must rank as one of the worst scenes in any film ever made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I actually thought PJ's version was rather amusing... I just think it's rather stupid of the Bakshi artists to think that if something is <B>magic</B> it has to be <B>bright</B> and <B>sparkly</B>.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Another place where Bakshi's mess managed to come together was the nazgul.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm always inclined to laugh at the Nazgul. They act like escapees from a leper colony.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where PJ sticks to the book he succeeds and succeeds well. Where he diverges he fails every time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's really hard to argue with that, so I won't. I'll just say that for some people, the changes are less appalling than they are to others. Like, I really can't handle the whole warg attack and "death" of Aragorn, and some people thought the scene was well done and enjoyed it. It depends on the person, and how much of a purist they are. <P>Oh, and to those interested, <A HREF="http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/bakshi/bakshi.htm" TARGET=_blank>here</A> is an interesting look at Bakshi's LotR. Good for a laugh. <P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

12-01-2003, 05:04 PM	#308
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just because Tolkien didn't describe it, doesn't mean it didn't happen in the Books. I thought the scene was well-placed, and a chance to get in a bit of exposition without sounding silly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, yes: it's a good scene but the fact is that the Jackson was a straight copy; given that a certain amount of scorn was poured on earlier attempts (and can you think of another?) this seemed a bit dishonest.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What Tolkien-based film wouldn't need a prologue?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think it needs a prologue and I don't find the one in the Book particularly good (nor did JRRT for that matter). Without the one in the films the story regains its brilliant musical flow from the light, carefree world of the hobbits gradually through more and more moments of discord to the dark, deep, brassy notes of the mountains of Mordor (in the book even the vocabulary changes from the start to the end; the words themselves get heavier as Frodo struggles with the ring). The prologue just confuses this and all the material in it that was needed could have been in Elrond's flashback.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Such as what? All the bits I noticed as coinciding happened to come from the Books as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd have to re-watch both versions now. I did notice a few lines when FotR came out and I did check them but that was quite a while ago now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> One thing I found particularly annoying about Fellowship was Arwen's usurping of Glorfindel's part. A mistake shared by the Bakshi version I might add, with Glorfindel being preempted by Legolas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, that's fim adaptations for you: characters get compressed into each other. The real flaw was undermining Frodo's bravery by not allowing him to face down the nazgul alone.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I just think it's rather stupid of the Bakshi artists to think that if something is magic it has to be bright and sparkly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe but at least it was a subtle evokation of struggling wills, not "I'm a great wizard; eat knuckles you old fool".<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm always inclined to laugh at the Nazgul. They act like escapees from a leper colony. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As opposed to PJ's highly inflammable clowns? <P>"'Ere, Gothmog. Fancy a smoke?"<BR>"Yeah, thanks, Khamul."<BR>WOOF<BR>"Ah ah ah ah ah"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Oh, and to those interested, here is an interesting look at Bakshi's LotR. Good for a laugh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I found that a few years ago; it's very good. But Bakshi still did a better job. Especially given his circumstances.

12-02-2003, 01:54 PM	#309
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	Uh-huh, yeah, whatever. If you have such a thing against PJ's movies, what are you even doing here? Just drop it and go away; let those who appreciate the films do so in peace.<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

12-02-2003, 02:19 PM	#310
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Got my tickets for the midnight premiere!

12-02-2003, 03:19 PM	#311
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	<B>Pandora</B>, I largely disagree with you on the question of the merits of the LotR films as adaptations of Tolkien's works. I am not going to take issue with the many points that you raise, for I have expressed my views on numerous occasions elsewhere in this forum. In the final analysis, these types of issue come down to personal taste.<P>But there are two points on which I feel that your comments have gone beyond the scope of personal opinion.<P>First:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ... how little ability Jackson has as a movie-maker <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jackson has brought to the screen a literary masterpiece which has traditionally been regarded as unfilmable. And, in doing so, he has made films which have brought great acclaim, amongst both film critics and his peers in the industry. They are also films which have been incredibly successful at the box office. Millions upon millions of people have been to see them, the vast majority of whom have enjoyed them immensely. The first two films have won numerous awards, and both RotK and Jackson himself are now in with a reasonable chance of winning Oscars. Surely, by no stretch of the imagination, can Jackson be regarded as a film-maker with little ability, whatever your personal opinion of these films might be.<P>Secondly:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Just pointing at the Emperor's clothes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>By this comment, you are implying that those of us here who enjoy the films only do so because we are "going along with the crowd". On the contrary, however, the vast majority, if not all, of those who post here are perfectly capable of making up their own minds about these films, and do not need to rely upon others to help them form their views. I therefore find this comment rather surprising, particularly on a thread devoted to those who are looking forward with great anticipation to the final instalment of this trilogy of films. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

12-02-2003, 08:47 PM	#312
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	Hear hear, Saucepan! <P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

12-03-2003, 11:42 AM	#313
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Sure, pandora, Bakshi did a much better job. At least PJ's Balrog didn't wear fluffy black bedroom slippers! Give him some credit for his efforts. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-03-2003, 12:58 PM	#314
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Thx, Saucepanman

12-03-2003, 05:10 PM	#315
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> At least PJ's Balrog didn't wear fluffy black bedroom slippers! Give him some credit for his efforts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But his Balrog didn't save the Fellowship from certain death. Once again Jackson's technical achievements (the visuals) beat Bakshi hands down while Bakshi's direction and understanding of the story is superior.<P>That's my last word on this thread; it is the wrong place for it and I'm sorry my venting get the better of me. My cat was killed today and it has reminded me that there are more important things than raining on someone's parade, regardless of how strongly I feel about it.