Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion

[mark12_30]

Ranger-kebab!

So... Erundil should depart in post 201?

[Orual]

Post 201 sounds good. Should I PM alaklondewen something to put in underneath that post?

In other news, I'm going to be out of town over the weekend. I should be back by Monday, and may not even be out of town overnight...it depends on the weather. But it's probably safest to assume that I'll be gone til Monday.

[alaklondewen]

Orual, that is fine with me.

[Orual]

Easier done than said...it's on its way.

[alaklondewen]

Orual, your post is up in #201, and I edited my last post for Celegtâl to reflect the correct number in the group.

[littlemanpoet]

"Deluding"? How about "fooling"?

By the way, I've been wondering if Raefindan was the type to burst out like that "Enough!" of his. I've been kind of wanting him to do something like that for a while now. Thanks for having him do that, Orual.

[Imladris]

I changed it...I do wonder how the peoples of Middle-earth communicated to each other...such a limited vocabulary. *sigh*

[mark12_30]

lmp, could you post the essentials of Middle-English vocabulary (you know what I mean... what you told me... less french, less Latin, etc...?) That might take some of the pressure off you. And then we could all help each other.

[mark12_30]

~*~*~*~*~*~ It's Vewy Vewy Quiet...~*~*~*~*~*~

(Elmer Fudd comes to Lothlorien.)

At any rate, alak is bursting to write, and so I have taken the liberty of nidging the action along just a little, with Ædegard (lmp, I hope that's OK.). Alak, go ahead and write; I will keep putting up little nudges, and if anyone (especially in the Rohan contingent ) wants to edit **Please** let me know! I will happily paste anything in that's needed.

[littlemanpoet]

As requested by Helen, I'm going to give a little background into how Tolkien worked with language in LotR. First of all, let me just say that Linguistics (the study of language) is a fascinating hobby for me, and I'm not really an expert, I just happen to know a little something because I've taken a few courses in college, and just love the topic. Anyway.....

Modern English is loaded with borrowings from Greek, Latin, French, (and in the case of American English) Native American, German, Gaelic, and other languages as well. It's why modern English has such a huge and rich vocabulary.

But here's the rub: Tolkien stuck, as much as he could, with the roots of English, which are found in Anglo-Saxon, which is also known as Old English. There is actually quite a lot written in Old English, because with the acceptance of Christianity, Anglo-Saxons learned their letters. Thus, Old English works include "Beowulf", "Pearl", the Gospels, "Orfeo" (a story borrowed from Greek myth aka Orpheus), and "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight", borrowed from Celtic myth. The upshot is that we know what Old English vocabulary was like.

Moving on.

If you want to know what the Old English vocabulary was, by and large, read LotR, excluding Elvish words. There are exceptions, such as Frodo using the word "travelers", whereas the Old English choice would be "wayfarers", but by and large, Tolkien used Old English words.

In the 900's, the Vikings rampaged all over Europe, and conquered much of Scotland, Ireland, and England. Because of their influence, the Scots say "kirk" instead of "church". Just one example.

In 1066, William the Conqueror invaded England from Normandy in France, and forced his Norman French to be the accepted language of the upper classes for 200 years in England. Thing is, William's ancestors were Danish Vikings, so that his Norman French was a mix of Danish and French. Because of William, English has such words as: ... bailliff, beef, pork, guard, and so forth. You may wonder what the English called the meat of a pig before 1066. Well, pig. Or hog.

With the Renaissance, many Greek and Latin words entered the language. Greek words tend to be those associated with Medicine and Philosophy, such as cardiovascular, hermetic, encephalogram; and apology, philosophy, theology, etc. Any word ending in ology is Greek. Latin borrowings are a huge part of English. Any word ending in "tion" is from Latin. Deluded is Latin. So is ruin, believe it or not! Peregrine is Latin, as is pilgrim. Illustrate.

French words entered English, all over again, in the 18th century. Most words that have "ou" in them, or most other double vowels, are French. Trouble. Question.

German words tend to have to do with education. Kindergarten. Semester. One exception is Heck. It means Gate. Heck is an abbreviated way of saying "Gates of Hell".

I hope this helps. This is only the briefest and crudest presentation. I've tried to show that there are exceptions to every single one of the generalities I point to above. There you have it. If you have any questions about this, feel free to ask.

LMP

[mark12_30]

Okay, I can't resist; I'm gong to put in my own two cents worth, as they say here on the Downs.

The way I approach this-- being essentially clueless about french and latin and half the other stuff-- is as follows. I go for as many monosyllabic words as possible. (cough)

I use short words.

Simplify, simplify, simplify. Elves speak in simple ways. I didn't really believe this til I looked up some of Galadriel's speech.

"The love of the elves for their land and their works is deeper than the sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever be wholly assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now."

"Assuaged", "undying" are the only three-syllable words (sort of); the rest are all two-syllable or one. One syllable is safest if you can find it.

Anyway, it seems to work; lmp nabs me much less these days!



ps. lmp says "assuaged" is french, and it's the only non-english word in the whole quote. Hey! I'm getting there! Yippee!

[mark12_30]

...several paragraphs of them would be good.

We do seem to have stalled.

I find myself wondering whether (with Erebemlin's new revelation) the search might not happen more quickly. Erebemlin may be able to sort out the signals more clearly than the feverish and weary Amroth.

That said-- the Anorien troop does need to surge northward. Orual, will you be able to post soon?

[alaklondewen]

Aylwen, I used Bellyn in my last post (yes, I post again...couldn't help it). Please, please, tell me if I've overstepped any boundaries. I could just see it given several cues from your posts.

[littlemanpoet]

I'd say don't worry about it. IMHO, if you have inspiration to write for the rpg, and others don't seem to, go for it. We can let you know if there are edits that need to be made. We'll even be nice about it! Even me! Promise! You may be the one to get me going with your next post! So have at it, is what I say. That okay, Helen?

[mark12_30]

Absolutely. If we're too careful, we'll never get anywhere.

I'd rather edit than tiptoe.

Speaking of plot twists, I hadn't figured on Erebemlin being able to sleuth his way through Amroth's dreams. This could significantly shorten the search, eh? Which (truth to tell) comforts me significantly. I had begun to worry that this game would stretch on into the 22nd century... kidding. But it did threaten to go on longer than we would have enthusiasm for... so Erebemlin's detective work is a good thing. It's easier to stretch a game with details than condense it with haste, I think. So-- Detective Erebemlin is warming to the task.

Turns out to be a VERY good thing that Orual had a spare ranger to send Amroth's way. And it also looks like the two teams could join forces sooner rather than later, which I also like...

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

It's all good, alak! You overstepped no boundaries.

Amroth awakens!

-Aylwen

[Orual]

I'm back! Turned out that the weather was good, so we stayed out over the weekend...now, somewhat relaxed, I've returned and I'm going check out the game thread right now.

[mark12_30]

Welcome home! It's a big relief to see you posting again! I missed Ravion.

[mark12_30]

I have a strong temptation to change my "location", thusly:

"Napping peacefully in Erebemlin's flet. Please do not disturb."

[alaklondewen]

Quick question...where exactly are the Gondorians on the 19th, or is it the 20th now? Should we (the rohan group) be packing along quickly to catch up to their date? I think we're just getting up on the 17th, or maybe there's an idea of which I am not aware. Anyway, I just need to get my mind around it.

[mark12_30]

Yes, Ravion's group is at the 20th and Ædegard's group will wake up soon on the 17th. Moving Rohan/Lorien along timewise would be a good thing.

[Orual]

Helen, you said earlier that the Anorien group needed to make some headway northbound. I assume we should surge on despite Raefindan's nasty cold? (Poor Raefindan! I think I've had that cold...)

[mark12_30]

Orual:
Yes. Distance is good. They'll get to the Entwash delta soon (if they aren't nearly there already.)

No rest for the weary Raefindan...

Rohan was supposed to "catch up" to Ravion's group timewise (rohan was a week behind.) We made good progress; we have a few more days to close up. I think Ravion & co can cover game-distance, let relationships continue to build and characters continue to develop.

Meanwhile, we can be hurring Ædegard's group three days forward timewise. Alak has agreeed to drive Ædegard & Erebemlin's troop onward.

[mark12_30]

lmp--

Ædegard: ooo, great questions! Looking forward to Erebemlin' answers!

Raefindan.... :eeeeew: Sounds like this would be a really good time for Aeron to teach Raefindan how to clear his nose in the field. Or Ravion.

Mellonin would also know how, I suspect.

[alaklondewen]

I'm sorry to take so long, but I've been job hunting the last couple of days, and I'm exhausted. I will be fresh tomorrow and will have Erebemlin's reply posted. Tough questions, by the way. Way to keep me on my toes, lmp.

See you all tomorrow.

[mark12_30]

Gondor team,

Now that we've had our fun with it, do you think we could edit out the baser elements of the whole snot theme? It doesn't qualify as "High, purged of the gross".... I don't think the proffessor would approve.

Thoughts?

[Imladris]

Okay I edited out one "graphic" description of the mucus...only one sentence. I serfed through all my posts on the subject to see if there was any more but I did not find any. If you are referring to using a sleave for a nose rag, I really do think that Aeron would use his shirt and that he told Raefindan to use it in the highest sincereity.

[littlemanpoet]

Um, sorry to have dragged this fine collaboration through ..... the mud..... so to speak. But who was it who wrote Raefindan having a cold, eh? And speaking of Raefindan's declining health, who was it (sorry, have had no time to research this thread) who gave him the bum leg, and what did you have in mind? I wrote the hip thing because I can relate to it. Did you have something else in mind?

And do feel that I need to edit out some of my cold-symptom meanderings?

Please do tell.....

[mark12_30]

Immy the sleeve thing is OK as it is now. (He really would have learned to snort, though. Wearing drizzle is the pits. )

The pneumonia is fine (Hope you're up for a passenger, Gond!) but... yeah, I think the graphic cold symptom discussions are a bit beyond what Tolkien would have done. Especially (at the end of post 236) the bit about Jorje licking up Raefindan's sneeze. Eeeuuugh. I'd put the book down and walk away at that point. Can we lose it? (Please?)

Um-- the limping... I didn't have a lot of plans, just vague thoughts about blisters perhaps or sore muscles. The hip thing is fine by me. Plot twists, we like plot twists.

I wonder how Ravion will handle it? I have a vision of Raefindan draped over Gond's back, limp arms and legs dangling. Poor Raefindan. Poor Gond.

[littlemanpoet]

Oh, all right. Sorry about he Jorje nose thing. That comes right out of real life; it's the way dogs will be.

But if you don't want green, I'm okay with that. Green was my cue that Rae has pneumonia. It's a one to one correlation, according to my medically knowledgeable spouse. So if you want to avoid this particular plot development, we can all edit, if you like, but I'd just as soon we didn't; this shall prove a useful vehicle for Raefindan to do some maddened dreaming of Imrazor, I'm thinking.

Okay, I've fixed the last three posts for Raefindan (or is it two?). I've removed some of the more nasal references, and rewritten the Jorje incident; I also fixed my failure to have Rae's speech sound like a bad cold. Now I won't have to worry about that for a little while, what with him out cold and all - pardon the pun.

[mark12_30]

Better! Thanks!

I leave tomorrow morning for a three-day business trip. I don't expect to have any internet access while I'm gone. Carry forward! Post like blazes! Don't be shy and don't worry.

Looking forward to reading it all when I get back!

Grace & peace, --mark12_30

[mark12_30]

Hello!

I'm back, and happy about it!

How is everyone? Questions, concerns, curiosities...?

Lovely posts, by the way. It was delicious reading them when I got back.

[littlemanpoet]

I am somewhat at loose ends. I'm not happy with Raefindan's dream. Helen and I have discussed Imrazor's relationship with Mithrellas briefly in the past, and whereas I had just assumed that Imrazor had more or less overpowered her, Helen had not seen it so. So I want to work some tension into their relationship, such that Imrazor's tension is between fate (as he sees it) and honor, and Mithrellas's is between love and duty on one hand, and between love and - I don't know - distrust or resentment on the other.

One other primary question: when Imrazor happend up on Mithrellas, was it after Nimrodel had missed the boat, or before? And if it was after, was Nimrodel flying alone into the wilds of Gondor, and Mithrellas following after, or with her, or what?

[mark12_30]

Good morning, lmp...

I could guess! Just kidding. I am not sure it is clear in the writings, but I will glean from them what I can and post my observations here asap.

--off to dig

[mark12_30]

Okay... I don't have time to quote it all now, but:

...
page 260 unfinished tales:

Galador was the son of Imrazor the numenorean, awho dwelt in belfalas, and the elven lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the elves who fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the third age... and nimrodel and her maidens stayed int he wooded hills, and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazor harbored Mithrellas and took her to wife. But when she had borned him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night and he saw her no more.

Seems to me that he-- or somebody-- found her wandering and maybe hungry, and took her to Imrazor's house, and he "harbored" her-- "safe harbor" comes to mind, doesn't seem forced to me-- and then "he took her to wife". I figured she left because she didn't want to watch her husband get old and die.

Seems to me that by the time Nimrodel lay down beside the Mere of Gilrain, she was alone. page 254 unfinished tales:

...she became lost in the white mountains......she sat by a mere, seeing the stars reflected in its dim waters, and listening to the waterfalls...

My expectations of the game are shifting... I had expected the two teams to be separate for quite some time, but now I expect they will join up much sooner, and take a more direct route to the Gilraen (at least) than i had previously planned. I think Erebemlin and Taitheneb, along with Liornung and Bella and anybody else who knows the song and the legends, will be thinking hard about them, and the GIlrain should become the focus of the search before too much longer. The focus on the Dagorlad and the Morannon (for now)was just to get them swinging westward so they could meet up with Ravion's group. I think we need that synergy for the game.

I'm leavng for my parents' house shortly and I'll be busy all day tomorrow. Feel free to gallop ahead. Speaking of Tomorrow: Happy Birthday Alak!!

[littlemanpoet]

I've revised Raefindan's first dream. Now I feel like I can move forward with it. There's a little bit of the flavor of Beren and Luthien about it, but Tolkien did set up the template after all, didn't he?

[mark12_30]

Hello Dream-Team,

I am not quite sure whether my old laptop committed suicide (unlikely) or was murdered (likely) but in either case it is dead, and I now salute you from the keyboard of my "new" PC. Golly, it's fast!! It's also very stripped down. Send me email or PMs only til further notice!

I have a few things to check out, and then I'll be back with a new game post.

(Where to, Iluvatar?)

Grace and peace, --mark12_30

[mark12_30]

Rohan team-- we are camped at the Field of Celebrant. That was a battle between Rohan and the Wainriders. Room for some ethnic conflict, if you like!

[Imladris]

Hey! Sorry I wasn't around today....was having a blast at a Renaissance Faire.

But anyway, what is this song? Grasping for the moon....I'm lost...or confused...or just not thinking straight...take your pick.

And before I forget, I'm going to be leaving on June 9 and I'm not sure how long I'll be. I won't have much internet access, so I'll be scarce.

Cheers!
Imladris

[mark12_30]

The Moon Song...

I haven't written it yet. But (if I do) it will probably compare heartache to the pull of the tide, caused by the love of a shining one who is (or seems!) far out of reach. It will be short; maybe two brief verses, or one long verse, or some such.

EDIT: I was thinking something like this:


Afar I plead from deep and hollow.
Shimmer, glisten, and gaze on me,
For as you rise, I must follow;
O, beckon me.


How you rule me! Though ripple and foam
Heed every wind, yet I, heart-deep
Remain your thrall; heart-hope, heart-home,
Heart-doom you keep.


(The last line of each verse ought to be indented... sigh.)

How one does fuss at these things...