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#281 | |||||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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Heya I'm back
Okay I'm seriously going to kill Lommy if she's a wolf because I love her vote analysis post and generally seem to agree with her quite much.
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I am not telling anybody to do it, but I think it's what an innocent would do... Hey Zil sorry if I've missed something but I don't think I got an answer to my question: Quote:
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Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question: Quote:
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It might be newbie behaviour, but I think it's pretty darn suspicious newbie behaviour. And although Brinn brought up other points against him (you can't vote for someone early and explain it by things "others have said"), her reaction to winty's post is somewhat lesser than I imagined it would be. It looks as if she was giving him advice, but if they were fellows why did he vote for her then? Of course it's possible she's nothing but an experienced player instructing a newbie, regardless of their roles...
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. Last edited by Aganzir; 04-10-2010 at 01:12 PM. Reason: xed with Shasta & wilwa |
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#282 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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On Greenie: 30 – First post, complains about the votes so far and the madness/oddness of the day, she warns of bad participation but promises better in the next Days, asks people to be sensible 61 – Doesn’t agree with Mira’s reflection that WinWin’s vote was suspicious, Agan is being helpful and providing substance, doesn’t like Lottie’s “gut feelings” as they provide a nice out if an innocent is lynched, thinks Lommy is being mysterious and weird… she knows it isn’t usual but she isn’t sure if it is suspicious or not 86 – apologizes for poor concentration, votes Lottie (3rd vote) with what she knows is outrageously bad reasoning, she thinks Lottie may be an easy day one Ordo lynch but she is the only person that Greenie thinks is being suspicious. On the whole her participation hasn't been good (which she warned of) but her reasoning for voting Lottie was poor and even though she knows it was poor that isn't really an excuse. If she was worried about a bandwagon she could have voted someone else. I would love to please hear more from her toDay.
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#283 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
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Of Aganzir, the Queen of Hearts
*NOTE*- many smilies eliminated
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Regarding the above statement, I'm not sure what, if anything, to make of it, but it seems like an odd thing to say. Quote:
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This next quote was Mira's: Quote:
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That's it for Day 1. Quote:
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I didn't know what to make of Fea. I honestly considered the idea she was the Cobbler, but then again her vote was something a Fea of any stripe might have done. So I wasn't prepared to vote for her. I don't think I ever said Legate and Lommy were not suspicious, but as I looked back over things I couldn't find much else, beyond their votes for Lottie, that pointed to which of them, if either, was the more likely wolf. At any rate, when I voted it didn't look as if either one of them would have been lynched, and I didn't want to simply throw away my vote that way. Quote:
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That line of reasoning from ww is very poor coming from an innocent. But you don't disagree? Conclusion? As with Glirdan, I've found myself agreeing with some of the things she's said. I didn't like the way she suspected Nerwen for making what I thought were reasonable questions about ww. There was also the way she appears to have something of a double standard when it comes to Morsul and Lottie, and allowing for their playing styles. The way she toDay insinuates that those who want to keep their retractables in case they need them are possibly wolfy for wanting to do so is at best a long shot, and at worst a furry plan to fabricate some cases on people. I think I'm on the fence for the moment, but if she starts in on people who aren't willing to dump their retractables that could change. x/d with all since my last
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Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 04-10-2010 at 01:36 PM. |
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#284 |
The Sweetest Spoiler
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
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Sally demands an explanation for this suspicion crap. Like, seriously?
I'll explain the thing with Morsul and Shasta though, because I can see how you would be confused. I suspected Morsul already and had been planning to say something about it, so when Shasta did as well I was like "Look, yay, support, I'm not crazy". Then Shasta says he realized Morsul was kidding (yeah, because NO ONE has every hidden behind jokes before, oh noes, never) and I thought it was strange because for pity's sake, that was a quick flip flop and quite the lame excuse. So then I made it clear that I suspected Morsul anyway, 'cause I hadn't been following Shasta in the first place, he just happened to post first. Oh, and did no one see that I'd been suspecting Lottie from the beginning? Sure, Legate can say he started the trend but I said "Something's not right with her" well toward the beginning of the Day. (Yes, I know, I was clearly wrong, but that's not the point.) And I never went toward a "Save Lottie she's innocent" point of view. The only thing I said that could be read like that was that I wanted to not kill her on Day One (AGAIN) and that I thought there were better candidates. Really, this is ridiculous. I think you've all been putting things in your tea. As a side note, I'm leaving now, but I'll be back later and will look at people. I want to look at newbienewbie ![]() ![]() Back later! Behave until then, please?
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"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit." Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together. Fenris bookworm.
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#285 | ||||||||||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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I think sally should be suspected more often if it gets her to speak seriously. :-p
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#286 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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(~~~) *grin appearing*
The croquet-game has been cancelled! (~~~) *grin vanishing* (~~~) *grin re-appearing* Finally back and reading, that is. (~~~) *grin vanishing*
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#287 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CT/NY
Posts: 681
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Oooh not a ton for me to catch up on even though the Day's more than half over. *approves*
Yes dear, would you care to explain that one for me please? I also really disliked Zil's vote for me. If he could explain that too, I'd appreciate it. Quote:
![]() So enough about me. ![]() I tend to trust Lottie's shirriff reveal, since I see no reason not to. Her suspicion of Greenie makes me suspicious of her by default, but I'll have to go through and look a bit deeper at her posts. So based on that information, I'll probably vote for Agan, Zil, or Greenie unless they manage to clear themselves in my eyes. I'm also on the fence about Morsul and sally. Morsul's "vote of opportunity" seems mighty suspicious. Said analysis of Greenie's posts might take a while since it's finals week and I reeeeally need to not get another D in seminar. Just sayin'.
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Rise and rise again until lambs become lions. |
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#288 | |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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One word about the retractions - I think the one-retraction rule is mostly because if somebody has to leave early and doesn't know if s/he can be back, so then s/he can vote and switch it if the situation has totally changed. In that sense, it does make sense, although I personally dislike reatractable votes too. edit: xed with Nog and Mir
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#289 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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Ai ai, that Mira post screams evil to me. The problem is, I always suspect her, regardless of her role.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#290 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great country of ALASKA
Posts: 79
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#291 |
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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I haz list (the names are not in a particular order)
GUILTY
Morsul. I still don't like his reasoning but I don't know if I'm reading too much into it because apparently everyone else (who has played with him before) is fine with it. Mira. I don't have anything on her except for her weird treatment of winty, but she's staying here until she gives me a reason to consider her innocent. If she's a wolf, I'll be almost convinced Inzil is not. winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly. Inzil. I don't like his comment about the Lottie wagon. Plus he seems to trust Lottie enough to consider her suspects (or all of them except for, conveniently, Greenie) serious enough to go through them himself but still thinks it's appropriate of me to ask Lottie why she's so sure... If he's a wolf I think Greenie should be looked closely at, and the other way round (I'm just afraid it would be too obvious though). And of course knowing his role would shed some light on Mira's. Actually I might well vote for him today. INNOCENT Lottie. Although I do think her suspicion of me is bad (obviously since I'm innocent) and she's generally too convinced about people's guilt too early. Lommy. Speaks sensibly and things I can easily agree on. Of course there's a chance she's fooling me magnificently but at the moment I'm not too concerned about that, because she really seems innocent. Isabell. Speaks sense and I find myself agreeing with her, although I'm not sure if I should be worried because I also have a history of mistrusting her when she's innocent (ie always, except for her first game, but it doesn't count because we were fellows). Nienna. She is sensible and has a generally innocent air. skip. I think he looks quite innocent, and of course I might misjudge him but I don't think he'd ask if the wolves knew the cobbler's identity if he was one. Legate. Had a small dispute with Inzil, I don't know what to make of it but I'd like to know Inzil's role for sure soon. Seems quite innocentish. EITHER Nog. Still looks innocent enough, and he nailed Fea which I don't think a wolfish Noggy had done (hmm except that one of my first lessons was that Wolfgrod does anything that makes him look innocent, even at a cost to his pack). Okay I don't think he's guilty but I'm not convinced about his innocence either so he's here. sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though. Glirdan. Haven't formed an opinion, and because I want to go to sleep soon it will have to wait. Shasta. See Glirdan. Greenie. No new material, people have brought up points against her but I will have to look at it, and I don't think her vote was so bad. Brinniel. Innocentish and sensible but her reaction to winty's reasoning didn't sit quite right with me. Will have to see more. Nerwen. She's the last because I'm at the moment rather undecided about her. I didn't like how she jumped on winty's day 1 vote (come on he's a newbie), but apart from that she's been innocentish. However she's Nerwen so you never know.
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. Last edited by Aganzir; 04-10-2010 at 03:14 PM. Reason: xed since my last post |
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#292 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CT/NY
Posts: 681
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Greenie
Apparently I was just kidding on the "this might take a while" thing. WW is way more entertaining than studying.
#30 banter, says participation will be shoddy Can't say there's anything really suspicious about that. #61 Questions my analysis of winty's vote, but doesn't find it suspicious. Find's Agan helpful but admits she always suspects her when she's innocent so maybe she's a wolf now. Apologizes for flip flopping. Doesn't like Lottie's "gut feeling" post. Thinks Lommy acting "purposefully mysterious" is wierd, but doesn't know if it's suspicious. Sort of defends winty, isn't sure about Agan or Lommy, and doesn't like Lottie's logic. Lottie is now a known innocent. . #86 Admits reasoning is "outrageously bad," afraid Lottie will become typical Day 1 easy lynch but is the only one she has a valid point on. Votes Lottie. Unless I missed something, I wouldn't call not liking gut feelings a valid point. Pretty much I don't like it because now Lottie's a known innocent. But then again, hindsight is 20/20. ![]() So pretty much my entire suspicion of Greenie is based on the fact that she voted Lottie yesterDay. Well that backfired. *headdesk*
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Rise and rise again until lambs become lions. Last edited by Mirandir; 04-10-2010 at 03:15 PM. Reason: xed since my last |
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#293 | ||
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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...? Now winwin seriously baffles me. I'll think about it toMorrow if we're both alive - now I'm too tired (just suddenly got veery sleepy, but after all it's midnight here...)
So, my vote ++Glirdan I'm willing to give Zil the benefit of doubt for toDay, and I'm not convinced enough of Sally's guilt to give her a third vote, especially now that her recent defense has left me with mixed feelings. Mira? Brinn? Nog? Not enough actual points to make a vote against them. So Glirdan it is. For reasons: Quote:
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#294 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CT/NY
Posts: 681
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Rise and rise again until lambs become lions. Last edited by Mirandir; 04-10-2010 at 03:17 PM. Reason: xed with Lommy |
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#295 | |
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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How about you first explain to me...
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Do you also want me to explain again why I suspected Morsul more than Lottie? Oh and do you have any other reason to consider voting for me but that I suspect you? And wintywinty now that you're apparently here, could you please answer my question? Who said Brinn is a good player?
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. Last edited by Aganzir; 04-10-2010 at 03:20 PM. Reason: xed since my last post again |
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#296 | ||||||
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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Secondly, it's been done. Several times. Read Morsul's game; read Gwath's game; read Sally's game - I find wolves on Day 1 and, usually, get lynched for it. It's sort of my trademark. ![]() Quote:
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We usually weren't online at the same time, but late in Day 1 we exhanged a lot of pms, and (I think) twenty eight pms over all. Maybe four last Night. Quote:
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And I haven't talked to him at all about Downers. We've talked about general game play, but not specifics. Quote:
My style is always over-confident, mostly because I always am. EDIT: xed since Nog
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#297 | ||
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#298 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Back from Alice in Wonderland to... Alirin in Wonderland. Okay, let's see...
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I am sure I had several more important things to say, but as I did not happen to quote them, I apparently forgot them. Okay, one of them was that I don't have any idea about Glirdan, and he does not seem suspicious to me (or suspicious enough to suspect him, if you get my meaning) as he does to many other people. Otherwise... something of Zil's replies made me think that he would be a lot more aggressive if he were a Wolf, on the other hand maybe he just doesn't want to retaliate on me as it would be dangerous for him... but anyway, I am still unsure about him. And yes, one last thing was probably Brinn, whose answer did not convince me about that there were not ulterior motives in not mentioning (nobody said she'd have to look at it herself, but she could have proposed it) looking at the bandwagon she was in (for more details to get a clear idea about what I mean by this look at one of my first posts toDay). EDIT: x-ed with about ten posts since WW
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#299 | ||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous. Quote:
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. Last edited by Aganzir; 04-10-2010 at 03:29 PM. Reason: xed with Lottie & Legate |
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#300 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great country of ALASKA
Posts: 79
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If Lottie was not the sherriff, then the real sherriff we tell everyone that they are the sheriff, rather than her. Only two people have not posted since Lottie made the statement that she was the other sheriff, and they are Greenie and Glirdan. Therefore, either Lottie is definitely telling the truth and was the sheriff, or Greenie/Glirdan was the other sheriff, and if they do not say they are the next time they post, Lottie's statement must be true, and we can assume that everything she says in the best interest of the villagers.
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#301 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great country of ALASKA
Posts: 79
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#302 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CT/NY
Posts: 681
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Rise and rise again until lambs become lions. |
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#303 | ||||
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#304 | ||
Leaf-clad Lady
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Phew. Here at last, been running all day and now it's getting late again. I so wish the Day and Night phases were the other way round... So if I seem to be over-reacting (I fear I am) it's because I'm tired. This will be a mostly self-defensive post. The next one will include something rather more relevant to the game, I hope.
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EDIT: eurgh x-ed with a horse (hehe what a typo, was supposed to write 'horde' ![]()
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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#305 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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![]() Otherwise... I am really thinking whether Lottie is not a bit too over the top with suspecting Agan, it's happened to me too a few times (one time I remember in particular when I went punctually through all somebody's posts, pointed wonderful totally 100% proofs of his wolfishness, then we lynched him and he was innocent. And I got lynched the next Day. Of course, Lottie doesn't need to worry about that... anyway, it was supposed to say that zeal needs to cool down also once in a while to see things straight). I don't see anything bad on Agan this far... (if she is a Wolf, like so many times, I will end up kicking myself, but at least it won't be any change from the norm.) Methinks me make myself a list, then vote and go to sleep. (Though beware of Nogrod, my friends, he returned from cinema with us and he's apparently reading the thread and writing something frumiously long... I'm sort of expecting it to pop up at any moment.) EDIT: x-ed with one WW, M, L and LG
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#306 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great country of ALASKA
Posts: 79
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#307 | ||
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#308 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great country of ALASKA
Posts: 79
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#309 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I agree with Legate about Lottie and Agan. It seems like an innocent on innocent that I've seen pop up in other games. I'll need to take a closer look at Agan but since she's been one of the more prolific posters it may take awhile.
Edit: x-ed
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#310 | |||
Leaf-clad Lady
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Now to write some actual substance. I'm sick of talking about myself. ![]()
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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#311 |
Energetic Essence
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Late For Tea Time
Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.
EDIT: Xed with Greenie
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I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face! Fenris Wolf
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#312 | |
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#313 | ||
Leaf-clad Lady
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Eurgh I had some other quotes I wanted to comment on but it seems I've lost them. Off to write a list and then vote. I'll probably be suspected for voting out of the blue this time ( ![]() EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy and Lottie
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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#314 |
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#315 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great country of ALASKA
Posts: 79
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Everyone has now posted after Lottie's claim of being the sherriff, and none have refuted, therefore Lottie was the other sherriff, is innocent, and can definitely be trusted.
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#316 | |
Leaf-clad Lady
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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#317 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I was confident about her for a few reasons. Boro's trust in her was adamant in a way that would be way too risky for wolves. She also started making sense and sounding confident and innocent.
Edit: x-ed
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Puddle! Puddle! |
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#318 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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A list...
'TWAS BRILIG: Isabellkya – sounds more or less sensible in general, no reason to suspect right now Agan – not suspicious this far, makes an effort and sounds, how to say it, "balanced" enough... okay, now I am starting to worry as I type this... but no, no, mustn't give in to paranoia. Leaving out of suspicion for now. Lottie – Shiriff, apparently Nerwen – no reason to suspect, looks innocent-ish this far Lommy – there were a few moments when I have been slightly worried, but generally looks like innocent Lommie. I somewhat miss the flip-flopping though... ![]() IN UFFISH THOUGHT HE STOOD: Glirdan – like I said, I don't find him any suspicious in particular. Not innocent either, but... Nogrod – Nogrod is hard to work with even if you saw more from him than his smile... what more to say. Mira – I have to admit I don't have paid very good attention to her this far, at least she didn't do anything eyebrow-raising which I would notice and it made me jump off my chair or something. Shasta – more or less nothing special Morsul – hard to say, but some of his reactions were innocent Morsul-ish, so he's in the better half this far Nienna – not much reading on her, there were a few things she said which looked sensible and genuine. I admit I haven't been focusing well enough on her. Skip – now this guy could be - I have just such a funny feeling - a quite brilliantly doing newbie Wolf. (I can imagine how happy Agan would be if the two of them were Wolves.) Nevertheless, his generally reasonable behavior and all that make me just see him as a brilliantly doing innocent. This far I don't have any proofs of fishiness in his behavior. I'm sort of thinking that if he was, it would show sooner or later. Greenie – hasn't posted much, like I said, if I were to point at one person from the Lottie wagon and say it's a Wolf, I'd probably choose her, but still, there's not enough for me to read her. BEWARE THE JABBERWOCK: Inzil – after seeing him react and taking Lottie's word, I could give him a pass at least for toDay. Watchful eye, though. Wintywinty – there's been very little input from him and the very little input was not very positive. (But thanks for replying anyway, that clears things a bit.) I'd like to see more input, however, just to be able to actually make a better judgement. Sally – I find many of the points which have been brought against her as having quite some grounds, and her self-defense didn't help much to convince me otherwise, rather a bit to the opposite. Questionable, at least. Brinniel – worrying, she's been under my watchful eye and continues to be so. Note please that the borders of the cathegories can be somewhat hazy and are very general. However I will likely be picking my vote from among the lowest part toDay. EDIT: x-ed since my last
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#319 | |
The Werewolf's Companion
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
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Quote:
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I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. Double Fenris
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#320 |
Werewolf Psychic
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water.
Posts: 2,832
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Here and reading.
*opens Notepad and prepares to respond on... everything ![]()
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Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV |
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