Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

First among elves, or men? Or even Maiar?


Melian?

[Urwen]

Ingwe? He was the first among the Minyar, he travelled to Valinor alongside Orome, and returned to convince their people to go to Valinor. Then he returned to Valinor and never left it again. As a result, he missed all the mayhem happening in ME, and when War of Wrath came around, he presumably passed the leadership of elven armies to Finarfin, and thus missed the great revenge against Morgoth.

[Huinesoron]

Or Finwe?

I feel like the first stanza points to either Ingwe or Finwe, who travelled to Valinor and back, then went again (unlike Elwe), and stayed there.

The bulk of stanza 2 applies to both of them, assuming the 'backwards trip' is the Return. But who missed the 'slaughter cruel'? Is that Ingwe, who missed the Kinslaying by virtue of, y'know, not being anywhere near it - or Finwe, who missed it only by being the first to die?

Then there's the third stanza, which uses the same 'there' that previously applied to Valinor. It could be that it's now referring to Middle-earth, and therefore means Ingwe, who let the Vanyar go to war without him. But it could also refer to Finwe, who gave up his chance to return to life in Valinor ('there') in favour of Miriel.

But 'the first among the first' means it's probably Ingwe; I just wanted to get my own guess in as well.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Ingwe? He was the first among the Minyar, he travelled to Valinor alongside Orome, and returned to convince their people to go to Valinor. Then he returned to Valinor and never left it again. As a result, he missed all the mayhem happening in ME, and when War of Wrath came around, he presumably passed the leadership of elven armies to Finarfin, and thus missed the great revenge against Morgoth.

That is so, perfectly explained. And proves once again that goody-two-shoes make boring characters.

Over to you.

[Urwen]

Inspired by the last one.....

I am but one
Yet my line still lingers on
Overshado'ed by my own
And in the end, my line had won

I left it all behind
And I did it all for love
'twas why I gave my life
To protect this treasure trove

Do you remember me?
I left the tale early on
And yet, without me
There would be no tale to be told

[Urwen]

I knew it. I knew that no one would try to solve my riddle...

[Urwen]

People are more interested in solving riddles which aren't mine. Well, fine then, have it your way.

[Huinesoron]

Did you seriously just denounce the entire Downs and storm off because no-one responded to you in under an hour?

Anyway, I say Finwe, nattering on about Feanor and his other sons, giving up his kingship and his life to do what Feanor would want him to do.

hS

[Urwen]

Yes, I did. Feeling cranky today. I've been sick as a dog this entire week. Also, you're correct.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yes, I did. Feeling cranky today. I've been sick as a dog this entire week. Also, you're correct.

I'm sorry to hear that; I hope you feel better soon.

To cheer you up(?), here's a quick riddle:

Friend of Red,
Friend of the Small,
Slow yet swift,
Yet not swift enough.

Each line references a specific passage, though not by using key words or anything.

hS

[Urwen]

There is a Small Finwe, but there is no Red Finwe.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

There is a Small Finwe, but there is no Red Finwe.

True - Caranthir's mother called him Red, but his father called him Dark.

It has nothing to do with House Finwe, nor are the capitalised words proper names.

hS

[Urwen]

If this is in the same vein with your house Bor/House Ulfang riddle, then Red = Maedhros.


Except that you said it has nothing to do with house Finwe.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If this is in the same vein with your house Bor/House Ulfang riddle, then Red = Maedhros.


Except that you said it has nothing to do with house Finwe.

I also said Red and Small aren't standing in for proper names. They're just descriptors, and not for individuals.

hS

[Urwen]

Red could refer to Red Elves, mentioned in Letters of Father Christmas.

[Urwen]

And the Small could refer to children. Father Christmas himself is friends with both, so he is my first guess.

[Huinesoron]

That is really clever.

It's not right, but it's clever! And it's the right sort of thinking: the Red and Small are specific groups of... let's say 'people' for simplicity, though most wouldn't use it of the Red.

Don't forget the second half! Line 4 is a specific incident, but line 3 is more general to the character.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I doubt anyone would befriend Orcs, Balrogs, Trolls and the like. That leaves Elves, Men, Hobbits, Ents.....

[Urwen]

Wait. 'Slow yet fast' is a general description of the character, you say?


In that case, I know who Small are, and I believe I know the answer as well. Just need to find the Red.

[Urwen]

I believe Hobbits are 'Small', in which case, the answer could be Quickbeam, who is quicker than most, but slow still, as is his race. But who are the 'Red'?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I believe Hobbits are 'Small', in which case, the answer could be Quickbeam, who is quicker than most, but slow still, as is his race. But who are the 'Red'?

Bing! Correct, the answer is Quickbeam. He was friend to the hobbits, but also to the red-berried Rowan trees. He was an Ent, so slow, but notoriously hasty - yet, when trying to catch Saruman, he wasn't quite quick enough.

Back to you.

hS

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....who or what should I write about?

[Urwen]

Brother mine, up above
Brother mine, down below
Sundered are we
Till everything crumbles to dust

Our father's pride
We awed many
Till evil took us
Into the darkness

Brother mine, up above
You had been freed
Yet so were we
Though much later than you were

Brother mine, up above
Brother mine, down below
When the world is remade
We shall meet again

Oh yeah. This might be my best riddle yet.

[Urwen]

I try to be patient, but being patient is hard.

[Galadriel55]

If the answer is what I think it is, this is indeed a great riddle. Is it the Silmarils? One in the earth below, one in the sea, one in the sky above.

[Urwen]

Yes indeed.

[Galadriel55]

I'm a little short on time and ideas to write another one right now. So if anyone has another riddle ready you can have the turn.

[Urwen]

I am eager to jump in, but I made the last one, so I am giving others 3 days to come up with something before doing so. I think this is more than fair.

[Huinesoron]

A quick one, then, to grant you legitimacy:

My first starts the name of the queen of the world
My second's in the Dark Lord's new name, and also his first
My third's in Felagund and his niece - but not in his heir
My fourth, not in Nerwen's name, but husband and child share it
My last would go unwritten in Tengwar in English
My whole gives a riddle to somebody else.

hS

(Edited to correct second clue.)

[Urwen]

I don't understand the last clue. Is the final letter unwritten in both Tengwar and English.

[Urwen]

Based on the letters I've found, the answer could be Egalmoth....

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I don't understand the last clue. Is the final letter unwritten in both Tengwar and English.

If you were writing English using Tengwar, you might well not bother to write this letter.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Based on the letters I've found, the answer could be Egalmoth....

It's five letters.

It looks like you've found the right references for at least the first 3, but have used the wrong names for the characters.

(And the final 'whole' line isn't just a throwaway 'now it's your turn'; it actually has relevance to the riddle...)

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, so the first letter is E, from Elbereth
The second is in Morgoth, but not Melkor
The third is is in Felagund/Finduilas or Celebrian, but not in Orodreth
The fourth is shared by Celeborn and Celebrian, but isn't in Nerwen.


Am I missing something here?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, so the first letter is E, from Elbereth
The second is in Morgoth, but not Melkor
The third is is in Felagund/Finduilas or Celebrian, but not in Orodreth
The fourth is shared by Celeborn and Celebrian, but isn't in Nerwen.


Am I missing something here?

Not 'Elbereth' (but the right character).

Correct on the second.

Not 'Felagund' (but the right character). I'd... actually completely spaced that Celebrian is also his niece, but the clue works for both her and Finduilas. Orodreth is right.

Not 'Nerwen' (but the right character). The other two are right.

And then there's the fifth. Do you know what letter can go unwritten in Tengwar when writing Quenya, and more specifically why?

hS

[Urwen]

No.

[Urwen]

Anyway, I've gathered all five-letter character names beginning with E or A, and none of them fit.

[Urwen]

I do have a couple of ideas, but they require one of Varda's names starting with either B or U, which isn't the case.

Wait, some of her names do start with B.

Bilbo, because of the original riddle game?

But that would require Morgoth having an I.....

[Urwen]

I think I figured it out. Thief, one of Bilbo's names, is the answer. One of Varda's names begins with T, Morgoth has H but Melkor doesn't, and the clues 3 and 4 fit as well.

[Huinesoron]

You're getting closer; 'thief' has one letter correct.

I'm usually referring to the most common name of the characters; I think you used 'Artanis' for #4 to get the e, but she has a more usual name...

(Whether the name used in #1 counts as 'most common' is entirely dependent on where you are, I guess.)

hS

[Urwen]

But if I use the usual names, then the letters don't match up to any five-letter word character name. >.>