Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'll shorten my opinion (and don't let this go to your head) to "I agree with the phantom."

[Roa_Aoife]

phantom, I think you forgot to take into account that the EW can de-gift a gifted, and the GW can unwolf a wolf, so even with a tally saying, "Oh, you only have a seer and a hunter, and this many wolves" we still wouldn't know if the villager who died was the protector, a wolf, or just a hapless innocent. And the EW could allow for a wolf to die, for their own intentions. The only one who would know about being a gifted would be the GW, while the only one who would know about being a wolf is the EW.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'm ok either way it goes-- I'd prefer, obviously, to know the final role of the deceased...But not knowing/just getting a tally adds to the suspicion and suspense.

I think that the game is going to be (brilliant) chaos, and that we're going to need whatever shred of sanity we can get, be it a tally, or an actual role.

And welcome to the fun, Eomer!

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Roa

the EW can de-gift a gifted, and the GW can unwolf a wolf, so even with a tally saying, "Oh, you only have a seer and a hunter, and this many wolves" we still wouldn't know if the villager who died was the protector, a wolf, or just a hapless innocent.

Under normal circumstances we will always be able to tell by virtue of the tally if a gifted was slain or de-gifted. If the number of wolves goes up, the gifted was slain since the EW's nightly curse was obviously used to create another wolf. If the number of wolves remains the same, then the EW's nightly curse was used to de-gift. The only exception is if the nightly curse found the GW, which is not a likely option, and can only happen a maximum of once in a game.

As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that.

Let's look at a complex situation. If the GW de-wolves, the EW de-gifts, and the wolves kill an ordo all on one night, the number of Gifteds would decrease by one, Wolves would decrease by one, Wizards would stay at two, and Ordinaries would increase by one.

The village could quickly deduce that only one kill was made. Only the wolves, the hunter, or a meeting of wizards can kill. If it was a meeting of wizards that killed, then how could the number of both gifteds and wolves be reduced? In order for the Hunter to kill, he must be killed, but that would result in two deaths. The village would quickly work out that the death must have resulted from the wolves, and that the loss of the wolf and the gifted was due to the Wizard's nightly activities, meaning that it was an ordo who was killed and not a gifted.

As you can see, in most situations it is possible to figure out from the tally if a gifted was killed or de-gifted.

Now, once there are multiple killings at night, then the situation is more complicated, because there is no way of knowing which of the three individuals killed was the gifted (though as always we will be able to tell if the reduction in the number of gifteds was due to the EW or the wolves, which is nice).

And, of course, the GW can help clear up any confusion if he/she chooses by moving into the open.

[Roa_Aoife]

Under normal circumstances we will always be able to tell by virtue of the tally if a gifted was slain or de-gifted. If the number of wolves goes up, the gifted was slain since the EW's nightly curse was obviously used to create another wolf. If the number of wolves remains the same, then the EW's nightly curse was used to de-gift.

Not necessarily. What if the EW curses one ordo, while the GW uncurses a wolf, and a gifted is killed? The tally would show the wolves staying the same, while the gifteds go down one, and we have a dead villager. We don't know if the villager was a gifted who was killed or if the EW de-gifted someone at the same time the GW is uncursing someone else, unless the uncursed wolf comes forward, which they might not, because they might not be believed, or they might hope to be recursed the following Night.

As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that.

It goes back to strategy- if we only get tallies and not roles, then the EW could allow a wolf to die (especially once he/she gets enough wolves to afford the risk) to add to the general confusion and paranoia.

[littlemanpoet]

..... at least I think my tired brain has this worked out right. Please, please, please, say "IN FAVOR" or "NOT IN FAVOR" so my bleary eyes don't have to read and re-read the complexities of your arguments to figure out what you think. This game's hard enough for even ME to keep track of. (but I love the way you guys are getting into it )

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 5

SPM
Celuien
Roa Aoife
the phantom
Feanor

Not in favor: 4

Lalaith
Nogrod
Diamond
Eonwe

Doesn't care: 1

Azaelia of Willowbottom

[the phantom]

What if the EW curses one ordo, while the GW uncurses a wolf, and a gifted is killed?

If that happened, the numbers would indicate that the other possibility is that the EW un-gifted someone, the GW scried an Ordo (with all three gifted roles already being filled), and the wolves killed an Ordo (or that the EW scried the GW, which is a rare one time occurence).

But in that situation, wouldn't the un-gifted come forward? He might as well. He is likely to be a pawn of the Wizards over the next couple of days, sure to be killed, re-gifted, cursed, or fought over in a wizard battle (or even if not, he will surely fear it, and the Wizards will consider it).

And also, the GW could tell everyone what had happened. As I predicted earlier, I believe it is likely that the GW will reveal him/herself by the fourth day, partially to clear up situations such as this.

If the number of Gifteds went down and nothing else, I personally would assume that the situation you described was what happened, unless someone told me different. And that's not even taking into account the possibility of, like you suggested, the uncursed Wolf coming forward.

Of course, you are completely right that there is another possibility (or two) in this situation and that my in-game assumptions may be wrong, but generally the tally will give enough information to get by, and the times it doesn't- the situation can be quickly rectified by an uncursed or de-gifted coming forward, or even the GW himself.

That's why I don't mind a tally only system. We are able to come up with certain situations that could lead to confusion, but they won't happen all the time, they can be resolved by others (especially the GW), and will only add a moderate amount of confusion, as opposed to if lmp didn't tell us anything and we weren't sure if we had all our gifteds and only two wolves, or if a gifted had just been killed during the night, another un-gifted, and another lynched during the day, and there were ten wolves running around. A tally is much better than nothing, I think.

(But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles)

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the phantom

(But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles)

You can count on it. Sorry for not clearing that up earlier.

[the phantom]

You can count on it.

Ah, good. Thank you very much.

Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me! But more because if it doesn't start soon, I fear that I might live past day one and end up with time constraint issues. Impatience is merely a second thought. No... strike that... I can't wait!

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start?

You hear the banging on the table with various metallic kitchen implements? Accompanied by the chant of "Start the game! Start the game! We want werewolf! We want werewolf!"? That's coming from me.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Wha!?! I never agreed to this! We definitely left that one in the air. You can't just go marrying people behind their backs!

But now that you mention it, it doesn't sound like too bad of an arrangment, if you can get past the arranged part...

Neither did I! I was just wondering if it will work out...but if you've accepted it, then I'm fine with that.

Originally Posted by Eomer

And I look forward to gaming with all of you. Now, to assimilate all this new info. What a perfect way to spend a few hours: reading about Werewolf!

So why didn't you join earlier? I could have...uh...committed...uh...


By the way: NOT IN FAVOR.

[Diamond18]

Having procured Lhuna's consent (IM), I'd like to add another daughter to our passel. She will be the eldest daughter -- which makes Eonwe the son-in-law of Nogrod and I. I figured the only thing this village was missing so far was a mother-in-law. Mwah ha ha.

Er, I suppose I should ask Nogrod, do you mind the addition? No, of course you don't, my dear, so that's settled. Good, good. I shall annoy the young couple with pressure for grandchildren, and surely Eonwe will be looking to murder me the first chance he gets.

Oh, and a clarification to the roles/not-roles matter. I suppose it doesn't matter to me so much if an individual person's role upon death is revealed, as much as having the Day and Night tallies of how may wolves there are and how many gifteds of what kind there are. It's less important to know who so-and-so was at the moment of their death as knowing what the overall situation is. So I'm:

SORT OF IN FAVOR OR NOT IN FAVOR DEPENDING ON HOW EXACTLY THINGS ARE DONE.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm supporting selerinya.

++NOT IN FAVOUR

[Thinlómien]

I'd prefer to know the role of the killed one, but not the previous roles. That'd cause enough but not too much confusion.

A question to LMP: The rules say that the EW can lie to his/her "subjects". What about the GW?

[Lalaith]

My problem with not knowing roles at time of death, is that it makes it harder for non-Wizard players to participate in the game in a meaningful way.
Non-Wizard players are of course going to be wizarding pawns to some extent, as the wizards have more knowledge and power than the rest of us. The shifting roles of players, the lack of any group behaviour by the wolves, is going to make it hard to make choices, votes etc that are anything but random, and having no identity clues at all after death is going to make that even harder.

Oh and I have another question. If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing?

[The Saucepan Man]

My suggestion that we not know the roles of those who have died was just that, a suggestion, born of the dynamics that I enjoyed in Diamond's game. I had not really thought through the consequences in detail, as has been done (mainly by TP and Roa) since. Ultimately, I am happy either way, but my vote will remain in favour. I like paranoia and confusion.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

My problem with not knowing roles at time of death, is that it makes it harder for non-Wizard players to participate in the game in a meaningful way.

In light of the complex discussions above over the consequences of knowing the tallies but not the final roles, it would certainly give them something to talk about. And by doing so, they would be aiding the Wizard to whom they owed allegiance at that point.

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm willing to bring some children and young eligible maidens into the house. What do you say, SPM?

I'm fine with that. As the childbearer, the choice of offspring is yours.

But these relationships are getting confusing. Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ...

[Kuruharan]

If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing?

The Good Wizard now knows the name of another innocent for the next DAY (since the werewolf curse comes before the GW scry). That is not entirely "nothing."

I wouldn't worry about this too much. I don't think it will happen often, if at all...unless the werewolves are suffering a rout.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My suggestion that we not know the roles of those who have died was just that, a suggestion, born of the dynamics that I enjoyed in Diamond's game. I had not really thought through the consequences in detail, as has been done (mainly by TP and Roa) since. Ultimately, I am happy either way, but my vote will remain in favour. I like paranoia and confusion.

That's essentially my opinion as well.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I'm fine with that. As the childbearer, the choice of offspring is yours.

Prepare for our humble cottage to be overrun by children.

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, phantom, as my father would say, we seem to be in violent agreement. (I end up in that alot....) We seem to agree that knowing tallies is enough information to play with while still being mildly ambiguous so as to require some level of thought. I imagine we can have even more fun discussing this on Day 1.

And I'm more than ready for this game to start.

[Cailín]

I'm with Azaelia on this one.

Though I'm not sure what she's saying. But I totally agree.

[Naria]

*sigh* Always a bridesmaid, never a bride.

Come on, does no one want me ? Am I really that scary? I won't bite.....hard

[Kath]

I'd marry you Naria! But I'm not sure that's quite canon, plus Glirdy might attack you.

[Naria]

Awww, thanks Kath! I feel a little more loved now !

Glirdy, Shmerdy.....Ha ha I can take him on anyday!

[Glirdan]

Oooo!! I get to attack Naria!? Interesting!! She's mine I tell you! Mine!! Idea! Naria, why don't you be a child and we (you and I) compete for Kath?

Oh by the way, not in favor.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Whatever The Phantom says, that's what I agree with.

And I need some sort of relationship. Hmm, can I be an old flame of Lhuna's? Possibly someone's brother or wayward cousin. I would also like some sort of unlikeable profession. Perhaps a snake-oil merchant would do the trick.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Kuru

The Good Wizard now knows the name of another innocent for the next DAY (since the werewolf curse comes before the GW scry). That is not entirely "nothing."

In other words, the GW, when not gifting or unwolfing, is a second Seer.

Originally Posted by Roa

we seem to be in violent agreement

Yes, yes- is there anything better?

Originally Posted by Eomer

Whatever The Phantom says, that's what I agree with.

Originally Posted by Fea

I agree with the phantom.

I only hope I attract such trust and loyalty during the game.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

I'm supporting selerinya.

++NOT IN FAVOUR

Does this mean you're playing?

Originally Posted by Lommy

The rules say that the EW can lie to his/her "subjects". What about the GW?

The GW can lie too.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing?

The GW has another known innocent. .... and as I've said before, is lucky to be in such a luxurious position of having all gifteds in operation such that s/he can function as a seer.

Originally Posted by SPM

Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ...

I've PM'd him.

current tally:

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 6

SPM
Celuien
Roa Aoife
the phantom
Feanor
Eomer

Not in favor: 8

Lalaith
Nogrod
Diamond
Eonwe
Lhunardawen
Nilpaurion
Thinlomien
Glirdan

Doesn't care: 3

Azaelia of Willowbottom
Diamond
Cailín

17 votes in, 14 not yet in. Yes, that makes 31. That's because I'm counting our 2 maybes and 2 sub-mods.

Okay, I'm going to make a decision in the next few days as to who our two wizards are. We have 27 players, and that's really enough. I'll take up to 30 if you volunteer by the time we begin play.

We will begin Night Phase One on Wednesday at 6 pm EDT (10 GMT).

[Caranlondien]

Well, after much consideration, I find myself totally ambivalent as concerns the tallies/final role issue. I can see the game being interesting either way. So put my ballot in the "Doesn't Care" pile.

[Loki]

Hello there. I'm new to the forums, and was told to check out the Werewolf games. Sign me up.

[Roa_Aoife]

Hello Loki. You picked one hell of a game to start with. Good luck. You need an age group and a profession. This is where the rules for this particular game are listed. Enjoy!

[Nogrod]

Lets just get all of the family together! So welcome Lhuna, my eldest daughter, and my pride! And Eonwe, rest assured of my suspicions from the dAy1 onwards! My daughters are not on sale to any werecreatures!

And as lmp has not voiced any rules concerninig the families, well...

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But these relationships are getting confusing. Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ...

I actually have software specifically designed for making family trees and genealogical records. Rad, huh? Of course, I'd rather just let Hookbill do something.

However, I did write up this handy little guide, because I was bored:

Nogrod + Diamond
- Lhuna (+ Eonwe)
- Firefoot
- Azaelia

Sleepy + Roa
- Caran
- Glirdan
- Lommy

Alcarillo + Cailín

Lalaith
- Oddwen, niece

SpM + Celuien (& JennyHallu, Celuien's sister)

Eonwe + Lhuna

Nilp + Spawn

Unattached and parentless so far:

Kath
Valier
Naria
Kitanna
Gurthang
Fea
Eomer (wants to be someone's brother or cousin and an old flame of Lhuna's)

Just plain unattached:

Mormegil
the phantom
Loki

--

Noggie and I will welcome more kids if anyone wants.

[Loki]

Age Group: Middle-aged (fourty-eight).
Marital Satus: Never married.
Profession: Weary Leech-Collector for local doctors.

[JennyHallu]

I'm Celuien's sister, Di, not Lal's

[Nogrod]

C'mon people. Just two real families! Are you trying to be individualistic in here? Now just marry each other and go for the kids!

Otherwise we family-folks will just out-vote you individuals on dAY1... Sorry! Think of your own best now!

And sure

=Diamond
Noggie and I will welcome more kids if anyone wants.

Well I can't refuse - the battledore awaits, if I do not perform my marital duties...

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Prepare for our humble cottage to be overrun by children.

The Panman and I are also welcoming children/eligible young maidens to our family.

Actually, the image of our driving away suitors to our eligible maidens with one of his saucepans amuses me to no end, so I'll be quite disappointed if we end up childless.

Any volunteers?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

The Panman and I are also welcoming children/eligible young maidens to our family.

Actually, the image of our driving away suitors to our eligible maidens with one of his saucepans amuses me to no end, so I'll be quite disappointed if we end up childless.

Any volunteers?

Hey people, could you even dream of more weird parents? The always sensible Celuien, and the Spm? Hello! Just dramatically the most twisted parents you might have? Why don't you grasp your chance? (Were I not an old-timer with a family, I might have surely wanted to be their child)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Were I not an old-timer with a family, I might have surely wanted to ber their child

Why not - then Celuien and I would get to be grandparents.

[Loki]

I'm a leech-collector. There's a damned good reason as to why I'm single.