Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Dead Thread

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Well, it looks like Nogs was innocent after all, so I'm glad we didn't lynch him.
I've been thinking about what the Dead are trying to tell us (apart from the rather depressing fact that Lottie was innocent, as well). They seem to like the votes for Eonwe and Legate.
Also, if we are all still here - are we innocents still in a small majority? (5 versus 3, in that case?)
Or can the game not end until there is a Duel?

For Eonwe? Where is she getting that?

[Mithalwen]

All dressed up and nowhere to go. Nogrod could be visitor and another save or joint choice. And if visitor he could be evil if I understand rightly

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

All dressed up and nowhere to go. Nogrod could be visitor and another save or joint choice. And if visitor he could be evil if I understand rightly

Yes, that was my understanding as well...which is quite scary if Nog is both.

[Inziladun]

Welcome, Sir Nogrod!

I agree I don't understand the logic of their going after him, unless he was a suspected Gifted. Seems he could have indeed been a solid lynch candidate toDay.

[Morsul the Dark]

Hmm. I'm surprised that wasn't game...

[Boromir88]

I wonder if the living will even bother trying to ask us to relay my innocence? Fat lot of good it's done them to know Inzil's and Lottie's.

I think it's getting down to a point though where the empowerment vote might be more important than merely relaying info. So, don't empower someone you're not comfortable with, or not comfortable about their vote just to try to notify them about my innocence.

Also, I'm going to be very occupied from about Noon through the rest of the night tomorrow. So, I may not vote to empower anyone.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

"Who put that there?"

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

"Can you believe this?!" came a voice.

"Who put that there?" didn't turn out to mean that the wolves failed to kill Mith, since she didn't end up being a Visitor, so I'm guessing it was a failed wolf conversion. I would guess that "Can you believe this?!" is probably the same thing - a failed wolf conversion - rather than a failed kill. If I were the GW, I'd be focusing on scrying the EW, rather than making Visitors.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Loslote

"Who put that there?" didn't turn out to mean that the wolves failed to kill Mith, since she didn't end up being a Visitor, so I'm guessing it was a failed wolf conversion. I would guess that "Can you believe this?!" is probably the same thing - a failed wolf conversion - rather than a failed kill. If I were the GW, I'd be focusing on scrying the EW, rather than making Visitors.

Also, if the wolf conversion failed, I would expect the wolves to try to kill whoever they failed to turn the next Night. But I don't know that I would have expected them to try to turn Nog when Nog was already in danger two Nights ago, so maybe they think the person they tried to convert is the GW (and therefore unkillable)?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wonder if the living will even bother trying to ask us to relay my innocence? Fat lot of good it's done them to know Inzil's and Lottie's.

I think it's getting down to a point though where the empowerment vote might be more important than merely relaying info. So, don't empower someone you're not comfortable with, or not comfortable about their vote just to try to notify them about my innocence.

They really don't seem to be doing anything with what we're providing, other than giving perfunctory notice.

If we do decide to let the 'system' go hang, and empower whom we like, we just need to be sure we're all on the same page on whom the honor shall rest.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

They must have thought he was a gifted/ the GW. It certainly isn't a no-trace kill, and it doesn't make sense as a frame.

...And now you know why I kept getting cold feet about voting him, even though he was really acting awfully suspicious. I've seen Nog get obsessed like that as an innocent (and as a wolf).

And now we know? So you knew he was innocent all along?

Nerwen is evil. I am so beyond convinced.

[Nogrod]

Well, it took a Day or two longer than I thought... but nice to be here.

Although a bit disappointing now as the balance seems to hanging from a very thin line and they managed to take one innocent from the tally - whatever the reason for it was. I do agree it was an interesting pick by the evil. I was quite sure I'd be very close to the chopping block toDay.

Oh, and sorry to diasppoint you, but I'm neither any visitor or any such speacial one - unless one can be that without knowing it himself (I haven't actually checked those parts of the rules that closely).

But anyway, what's up? Any other solid information but that Zil, Lottie and Boro are innocents (I just checked the thread only from the late last Night onwards)?

My first thoughts right now? Nerwen and Eönwe do seem to team up and I'd be surprised if they're both on the good side - and not be surprised if they were both evil (it could also be one just lured the other to trust her/him and only one is evil).

But in a way people like Brinn and Lalaith - and maybe Eomer - are probably the most scary ones. They are somehow outside all major suspicions and seem to play very reasonably giving a nice feel of themselves (not that much Eomer, but he's above the discussions on suspicion as well). I just hope one of them is actually the GW.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wonder if the living will even bother trying to ask us to relay my innocence? Fat lot of good it's done them to know Inzil's and Lottie's.

I think it's getting down to a point though where the empowerment vote might be more important than merely relaying info. So, don't empower someone you're not comfortable with, or not comfortable about their vote just to try to notify them about my innocence.

Heh. In the end I had to make a run for my life in the Living Thread for saying more or less just this...

[Mithalwen]

You can be a visitor without knowing it . We went through that when they started thinking I was. Kuru explains. You will see if you read back a couple of pages. Collectively we are leas voluble than Morsul on his own.

[Thinlómien]

I don't like the way Lalaith uses us to cast suspicion on Legate and Eönwë. Makes me very wary.

Anyone else think this would be a good day for the GW and her team to reveal? All that the baddies (probably) need for a victory is a plausible enough bandwagon against an innocent and maybe an innocent to join it but if the votes spread out at all they don't need even that. I don't like this.

Also the living have forgotten the EW counts as an innocent for endgame maths?? Or are they intentionally trying to mislead their innocent colleagues?

[Thinlómien]

So doesn't Legate genuinely realise what dire straits the village is in (not the best time to communicate anything by the dead vote!) or is he as furry as Chewbacca?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also the living have forgotten the EW counts as an innocent for endgame maths?? Or are they intentionally trying to mislead their innocent colleagues?

I guess it has been a bit ambiguously stated, but the Evil Wizard counts in the Baddie column as far as tabulating the win.

Also note, that killing the Good Wizard is not a win condition for the Baddie side. Their win condition is to reduce the Goodies down to an equal or lower number than themselves.

The Good win condition is to eliminate all the Baddies, including the Evil Wizard.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So doesn't Legate genuinely realise what dire straits the village is in (not the best time to communicate anything by the dead vote!) or is he as furry as Chewbacca?

Legate, the entire game, has not seemed like his innocent self.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I guess it has been a bit ambiguously stated, but the Evil Wizard counts in the Baddie column as far as tabulating the win.

For some reason I was really certain I read somewhere he doesn't, but I'm glad it's me being confused not the whole living village apparently.

Makes me wonder though what the hell is really going on under the surface of this game.

And I don't like how quiet the living thread is.

[Nogrod]

The Living, on this Day.

Nerwen
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Eönwë
Brinniel

=8

It can't be 4-4 because in that case the game would have ended when I died.

So it's either 5-3 (innocents vs. evil) or better.

5-3 would mean the EW has not succeeded - or tried - to turn herself a wolf on two of the Nights, or then that one or two of the wolves have been killed during the Night (isn't that impossible if there was no double-death during the Night aka. the Hunter involved?). I think the rules should be checked - and the odd "sound-effects" in the Nightly narrations might have something to do with all this?

As I don't believe it is any better than 5-3, the village better not lynch an innocent toDay - and if we can, we should try to help prevent that.

That said, I'm not going to be able to hang around up to the DL as I need to wake up really early toMorrow - and the DL really is 3AM. So sorry, but I can't help in the DL action toDay.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Makes me wonder though what the hell is really going on under the surface of this game.

It has been quite an interesting chess match, let me tell you.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As I don't believe it is any better than 5-3, the village better not lynch an innocent toDay - and if we can, we should try to help prevent that.

That said, I'm not going to be able to hang around up to the DL as I need to wake up really early toMorrow - and the DL really is 3AM. So sorry, but I can't help in the DL action toDay.

Yes, hear hear. Empowering a vote for someone we think is evil is more important today than communicating Boro's innocence, and I hope the living will realise that too and stop waving Legate's voting scheme around.

On that note, who do y'all suspect?

Also, like Nogrod, I shouldn't stay up until 3am today (I have work tomorrow morning) but I'll be around as long as I happen to be... I mean I'm a notorious night owl who doesn't agree with morning shifts anyway so I'll probably be here atleast two maybe one hour before the deadline.


edit: xed with Kuru

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It has been quite an interesting chess match, let me tell you.

That sounds like vaguely good news for us poor dead ordos...

...not that I still don't have that bad feeling about this whole game.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim, on the living thread

I am operating under the assumption that Boro was a wolf

*headdesks*

Why Eomer why?

*grumblegrumblewhycan'tthelivingdoanythingright*

It's worse because Eomer is one of the few people I'm fairly sure is innocent.

[Nogrod]

Okay. The good news:

Originally Posted by Teh Rulez

The Ranger can protect players from being killed or turned during the NIGHT phase.

Also:

Originally Posted by Dem Rulsz

If the Good Wizard and Evil Wizard target the same person, nothing happens.

Then there is this...

Originally Posted by The Rules

On NIGHTS when a wolf is not created the Evil Wizard may scry the role of a target in quest of finding the Good Wizard.

And also this.

Originally Posted by De Rulz

If the Evil Wizard scrys or attempts to convert the Good Wizard, the Evil Wizard is informed of the identity of the Good Wizard. This opens the door for the Evil Wizard to challenge the Good Wizard.

If the Evil Wizard picks a Gifted for converting into a wolf that pick is deterred but the Evil Wizard still keeps that pick for future use.

So, after five Nights in the EW only has max. two wolves. So even if the situation is quite good for her, she must be annoyed.

She did turn someone into a wolf succesfully on N1 because otherwise Morsul would not have died on N2 - that I think we managed to establish already in the Living Thread.

So after that she has either missed or knowingly refrained from turning someone a wolf three Nights out of Four! Well, that is interesting!

[Thinlómien]

Okay I'll start:

I would like to empower a vote for - Nerwen, Legate

I wouldn't like to empower a vote for - Shasta, Sally, Eomer

I still need to decide about - Lalaith, Brinniel, Eönwë


edit: xed with nogz

[Thinlómien]

I guess it's also possible Legate is the good wizard. I mean that would also explain him taking so many things for granted and keeping his attention to a limited number of villagers.

Hmmm.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Okay I'll start:
I would like to empower a vote for - Nerwen, Legate
I wouldn't like to empower a vote for - Shasta, Sally, Eomer
I still need to decide about - Lalaith, Brinniel, Eönwë

I agree with Nerwen, possibly with Legate as well (need to check and think). I'm afraid Eönwe could be evil as well, but yes, need to think about that as well.

But the fact that I too feel like not being just quite ready to help lynch Brinn or Lalaith just shows how scary they should be in all our eyes. They are perfect EW-picks - ones I'd pick as my wolves if I were the EW just because of this situation we're in with them.

But yes, I'm not even close to having a decent argument in any direction - but suspecting Nerwen heavily...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Okay I'll start:

I would like to empower a vote for - Nerwen, Legate

I wouldn't like to empower a vote for - Shasta, Sally, Eomer

I still need to decide about - Lalaith, Brinniel, Eönwë


edit: xed with nogz

Why would you want to empower Legate? From Legate's own list (that Lalaith has agreed to) by empowering Legate that will send the message that I'm a wolf. Which is as you know, flat out false. Why are you trying to send a false message?

I said I don't think it's important to base empowering a vote off of relaying info about my identity, but that doesn't mean we should empower anyone from the list of sending the wrong message.

So, I would if we empower anyone, let's keep it to either "Boro's a prey" list or "none of the above." Not that I'm thrilled about the folks on Legate's Prey list either, but it's bad to suggest we send faulty information.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

*headdesks*

Why Eomer why?

*grumblegrumblewhycan'tthelivingdoanythingright*

It's worse because Eomer is one of the few people I'm fairly sure is innocent.

Could Eomer have been turned last Night?

[Boromir88]

Also, since Mith wasn't one of the visitors, it means she was a night kill by the wolves/EW...funny how none of the Living is bothering to dig more into that

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eomer #606

Has there really only been 2 wolves this whole time?

He might have it right here... now is this because he's clever or because he knows it?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Why would you want to empower Legate?

I think we're in with the same misunderstanding we had in the Living Thread. I think Lommy means a vote empowering someone who is voting for Legate to be lynched.

Should we have a deal as to how we speak about these - empowering someone's vote (to whom we want to give an extra vote to use against someone) vs. empowering a vote for someone (whom we want to gain an extra vote and thus be more probably lynched)?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

If Boro is innocent, and there can't be 3 wolves just now, that would mean that the EW was thwarted on both Nights 4 and 5. It would suggest that the GW is not being thwarted, but then we would surely have seen the Visitor who leaves by now; and I just don't take that from the narration hints thus far.

Unless the GW is scrying instead of gifting.

I feel like Eomer might be trying to mislead the living. I thought he was looking innocent until toDay, but there can't be more than two wolves, so if he was turned last Night, then there would only have been the one, original wolf this whole time.

Unless...Eomer is the EW, he knows the GW is going to catch him soon, and he's making moves and drawing fire to keep attention off of the wolves. He did take command of the lynch yesterDay to get Boro lynched instead of Nog or Legate - but if Nog is innocent, why not go for the easier Nog lynch if all Eomer was doing was trying to protect a Legatewolf?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think we're in with the same misunderstanding we had in the Living Thread. I think Lommy means a vote empowering someone who is voting for Legate to be lynched.

Should we have a deal as to how we speak about these - empowering someone's vote (to whom we want to give an extra vote to use against someone) vs. empowering a vote for someone (whom we want to gain an extra vote and thus be more probably lynched)?

Ahh. Ok that would make more sense. Thanks.

[Boromir88]

Unfortunately I'm going to be occupied and away for the rest of the night/past the DL, so I'm not going to do an empowering vote unless I get some brief time to hop on my phone and make it once we get some voting, going on.

[Nogrod]

Btw. If the GW knows the identity of the EW this would be the Day to duel - with only two wolves around!

It would be 4-2 with both Wizards gone - and with the EW's personality revealed the village could have a chance to spot one of the wolves to lynch toDay, if the GW gave them time for it and announced the duel early enough.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would like to empower a vote for - Nerwen, Legate

I wouldn't like to empower a vote for - Shasta, Sally, Eomer

I still need to decide about - Lalaith, Brinniel, Eönwë

Legate's list for toDay:

BORO PREY
Nerwen
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005

BORO PREDATOR
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Eönwë
Brinniel

(or upside-down, if we want to change the order again, or what have you)

If we're still trying to indiicate Dead alignments, that leaves us Nerwen, Shasta, or Sally.

I guess I wouldn't mind going with either of the latter two, but it really would be nice to have our +1 mean something more than a verification.

Oddly enough, Nerwen here casts a smidgen of doubt on Eomer's Borowolf assumption.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Unless the GW is scrying instead of gifting.

I feel like Eomer might be trying to mislead the living. I thought he was looking innocent until toDay, but there can't be more than two wolves, so if he was turned last Night, then there would only have been the one, original wolf this whole time.

Unless...Eomer is the EW, he knows the GW is going to catch him soon, and he's making moves and drawing fire to keep attention off of the wolves. He did take command of the lynch yesterDay to get Boro lynched instead of Nog or Legate - but if Nog is innocent, why not go for the easier Nog lynch if all Eomer was doing was trying to protect a Legatewolf?

One last thought before I have to bounce though...

Agreed, I thought Eomer's posting towards the end of the the last Day was as if he was expecting Mith to be a visitor. And made a point to ask Nog and Legate if they were going to vote for me, which I read as he was trying to hold them to their votes. Then acted like everything would be cleared up with Mith's return.

But that's clearly not what happened and then Nog is killed.

[Nogrod]

Did Eomer the EW just put all his eggs into the same basket to risk for a final battle?

Since I'm feeling we're so close to the end, I'm throwing caution a bit to the wind now. I am operating under the assumption that Boro was a wolf, and that makes Legate and Lalaith seem innocent to me. In this crazy game, I just want something simple to hold on to!

Or am I just getting paranoid?

Without a duel the evil side is pretty close to victory if they lynch a goodie toDay. They still need a successful Night kill, but with those they have prevailed thus far. And with both, they win.

Uhh... then again Eomer looks like someone who really cares about things (promising to look at a scenario where Boro is not a wolf - let's see if he does that and what are his thoughts on it) - but he's made to rethink things becasue of *drumroll* Nerwen's points!

Should one just surrender and admit being totally "out and cycling" (as the Swedish say)?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Uhh... then again Eomer looks like someone who really cares about things (promising to look at a scenario where Boro is not a wolf - let's see if he does that and what are his thoughts on it) - but he's made to rethink things becasue of *drumroll* Nerwen's points!

Should one just surrender and admit being totally "out and cycling" (as the Swedish say)?

I'm not familiar with the phrase, but I think I get the gist.

Legate's new proposed list:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Right, I just copied it from the narration. Okay, if we wanted to do it backwards, it would be like this:

BORO PREY
Brinniel
Eönwë
Legate of Amon Lanc

BORO PREDATOR
Lalaith
Eomer of the Rohirrim
satansaloser2005

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Shastanis Althreduin
Nerwen

Would everyone agree on that one?

Of those options, what does everyone think?