WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

While it's possible one of the Lottie voters is a wolf, I think it's just as likely if not more that at least one of the players trying to save her from getting lynched is a wolf. Defending or trying to save an innocent is a classic werewolf move in the attempt to make themselves look good. The last minute bandwagon attempt against Greenie is something worth looking at. I'm not sure how it all started, but at first glance it does look like the type of bandwagon that would be easy for a wolf to jump on. It's certainly something I want to look into later.

I'd not ignore the Lottie-voters either. True, I don't want to fall into the "one of them has to be a wolf" trap, because I've played too many games where wolves have kept right out of a bandwagon. However, the circumstances of that particular one are quite odd.

EDIT:X'd since Brinn at #236.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd not ignore the Lottie-voters either. True, I don't want to fall into the "one of them has them has to be a wolf" trap, because I've played too many games where wolves have kept right out of a bandwagon. However, the circumstances of that particular one are quite odd.

Okay, so who did vote me? In order: Fea, Lommy, Greenie, and Legate.

We already know that Fea was the Cobbler.

Lommy seems genuine to me, plus she was in the least suspicious position - just Fea's silly vote so far.

Legate also looks innocent to me, although mostly because he was Sally and Glirdy's fall-back option as a scapegoat.

So then, Greenie. Her vote post was apologetic, she voted when I was starting to lead the votes (prime bandwaggon spot) and claimed not to have any real reason. If there is a wolf among these four, and I think there is, I'd bet it's Greenie.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

And Boro was a sherriff... which is kind of neutral Not good but he wasn't a seer or anything so that works.

It's not neutral, and it's negative - the Shiriffs talking together can be a powerful thing for the Innocent side. In a way, however, now at least we are sure about Loslote - at least until somebody would make a counter-claim (which would be quite nice, but I don't expect it to happen). Also, it makes perfect sense in the light of her late-yesterDay words like "I am not evil", given the fact that Shiriffs couldn't reveal. I am sure the Wolves have noticed this and also (I have to review yet how the close-to-DL posts went time-wise by timestamps) check the Borovote, if it really saved Lottie, then it must have been obvious. Then the WWs might have been easily thinking "well, Ranger probably would notice this too and would protect Lottie - so let's kill Boro just to be on the safe side!" And maybe there was a chance that some people will still suspect Lottie. So... that's what I think has happened here overNight.

As for Fea being the cobbler, I must say I am happy for the outcome and it seems we were quite lucky. It's not a Wolf, but we don't need to worry about the famous Aganzir's horror scenario, and this is also the only way to be sure and discern a Cobbler from an innocent.

So now I am going to recheck who voted whom and whatnot, and maybe come up with some thoughts. Good that Lottie is making her input, as a known innocent, please continue doing so And btw, no need to weep yet, there is still the possibility that Boro might return from the dead (unless you are targeted and killed at Night, however who knows what the Ranger does...)

And btw, some people yesterDay voiced suspicion about me according to my vote for Lottie, calling it that I jumped on a bandwagon or something, note please that I kept saying that I am going to vote her (and was quite firmly decided to do that) already quite early, and I was the first one to suspect her as far as I am aware (my post where I said it crossposted I think with somebody saying similar suspicion, but that's it). And for that matter, I didn't even realise for quite a long time that Fea's vote was for her as well (as I didn't think about the vote, considering it a "random vote" which, even more likely, is going to be retracted! - cf. Lommy's theory about that Fea cast it only to retract it later. Anyway, I wasn't considering the vote). So my vote was only my vote and that's also why I kept it even with the concern about "easy lynch crowd" (as I said in reply to Nogrod who voiced that concern).

EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen and Lottie

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So now I am going to recheck who voted whom and whatnot, and maybe come up with some thoughts. Good that Lottie is making her input, as a known innocent, please continue doing so And btw, no need to weep yet, there is still the possibility that Boro might return from the dead (unless you are targeted and killed at Night, however who knows what the Ranger does...)

Ooh, yes! I forgot about that. *dries tears with a little white hanky* Okay, Unicorn, die now before there are any other competing innocents!

...jk. Don't die. Wolf die instead.

Anywho, Boro agreed most fervently about Greenie and Sally. He was not as enthusiastic about Agan and Glirdy, but he did agree that it was likely they were wolfly. He trusted Nienna and Mira most out of everyone who was him or me. Just in case you were wondering.

EDIT: xed with no one but I am sleepy, it's way way way too late, and I'm off to the land of wonders, where I shall dream of waking dead and happier times when no wolf threatened my village. Or chocolate, which ever ends up in my dreams.

[Thinlómien]

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

And while you answer, I'm really off to check yesterDay. (What did I do before? Checked my bank account - I had got money, yay!, e-mails and had breakfast... )

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

And while you answer, I'm really off to check yesterDay. (What did I do before? Checked my bank account - I had got money, yay!, e-mails and had breakfast... )

Right, one more post.

I've said why I think Sally's a wolf.

Boro and I agreed most fervently that Greenie was a wolf based on her vote, general air of apologeticness, and other behaviors that I'll mention in the analysis post I will make tomorrow (as in tomorrow, not toMorrow).

Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? ).

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

I'll analyze the other three in the morning. For now, I'm too tired and anything I post will be silly.

[Aganzir]

Okay I don't have too much time now...

*is sad about Boro's death*

Originally Posted by Lommy

First off, I'm quite surprised Fea turned out to be the cobbler.

Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...

Originally Posted by Lommy

four wolves who can think together and they might be rereading the thread overNight.

No s*it Sherlock!
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs. However it's likely that the wolves spend more time looking for possible connections than the innocents. But on the other hand, Lottie might have been a relatively easy lynch today... So I don't really know.

Originally Posted by Brinn

And I know I'm going to bed too late when the Finns show up saying good morning...

Good morning Brinn! :-p And to be honest I'm quite surprised that Lommy is posting as early as at 11.

Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.
And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot (by the way last night I had a dream I was a wolf. Inzil was too).

Originally Posted by Lommy

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

I'd like to know that too (and not only because I'm one of her wolves) and I would totally be suspecting her because of it if she wasn't the other Shirriff... Because I have yet to see a day 1 when someody pins down all the wolves at once (oh wait I did that in Mith's game! But granted it was jokingly ;-)).

Okay a proper look at yesterday now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, rechecked the votes and also noticed that Boro accompanied his vote with "sorry hun, duty is forcing me to make this choice". Which, basically, is a big note saying "there is something going on here" - although it looks like he said it just to apologize to Fea whom he even might have thought innocent. Anyway, adding two and two together... it's really clear to see now where the WWs were (I'd say almost 99%) coming from.

Otherwise... if I were to assume that there is at least one Wolf in each of the bandwagons, which might as well not be the case, given that Wolves might have been just throwing away votes all over the place and making the village do the bad work... on the other hand, in my experience, the innocents are usually far more straightforward with their votes, i.e. if they have a suspicion, they go for it no matter that nobody else follows them, unlike WWs - of course depending on the particular WW, but I just think it's somehow more likely that way.

Anyway, what was I originally saying. If I had like a gun pointed at me right now and be told "say one name from each bandwaggon", from the Fea bandwaggon, I'd think of either Nogrod or Brinn, as skip who started it sounded reasonable and it was not a bandwaggon yet. Then maybe Brinn more than Nogrod, however I admit I'd have to reread Nog's posts one more time (and Brinn's maybe too, though I think I remember them better as there were less of them), as Nog generally speaks sense (well, Brinn does too, but...) but Brinn seems more "creepy". But in general, I consider both of them quite innocent and reasonable. There is however one important thing to take into account - would the Wolves dare to kill Boro toNight if there was one of them in the Fea bandwaggon? As that'd leave quite a few people, and if somebody took the idea that "now there is a Wolf in Fea's voters, I am sure of it!" there will be quite a large chance for the Wolf there being caught. Not that, on the other hand, there wasn't much of a difference - if Boro was alive and Lottie killed instead, he would probably reveal anyway and thus there will be again only 3 people left. Of course, it all comes down to how much the Wolves did think of at Night, which we can't determine. It could also have been perceived just as a "well, whatever" or "let's do it, we hope that people are not going to examine Fea's voters, thinking that she was a Cobbler so no Wolf voted her" (that would be a rather lame thinking, so I don't assume we have such simple Wolves). In other words, btw, it made me think that this must have been a really baaad Night for the WWs. "This Day went just wrong!" Quite a broken spirit, eh, dear furry stalking friends?

But I think the middle way would make the most sense, that the WWs just did what they had to, and now hoped the Fea voters won't be looked at. Okay, now actually along this train of thought, I have arrived somehow to being more inclined to believe that there might have been a Wolf among Fea voters more probably. If so, then I'd really put my bets on Brinn, as if you look at what she said toDay early, she started assuming a Wolf in Lottie-saving bandwaggon, but she explicitely named Greenie-wagon to be looked at, which could mean downplaying Fea-voters (of whom she is one)... and the more if Greenie was another fellow Wolf of hers.

However, note that this is a theory now made as my thoughts go, following the original premises. As for the other one, Lommy and Greenie are equally good choices for me to find a Wolf in the other bandwaggon if I were to look for it, maybe with having a few more reasons to think Lommy innocent for things she said yesterDay. But anyway, only speculating.

Then there of course would be another, wait, two Wolves among the rest! For that matter, sally's vote's been mentioned yesterDay as somewhat out-of-place and I sort of agree, if nothing else, it was inconsistent with what sally said. It wouldn't be a problem otherwise, but I think Nog or who was it had a point in saying that if sally wanted to save Lottie (resp. create a contest-bandwaggon), she would vote for somebody who already had a vote, and not me who didn't have a vote at all. I don't know if there was much of a chance to lynch me at the point (it didn't seem to me so much), so not sure if I can believe sally's explanation. (And that said, what I said above about innocents sticking to their votes won't certainly apply in this case - as that was not the reason sally stated, she came up with the somewhat strange explanation that she wanted to save Lottie.) Anyway... I am keeping my eye on her now.

Now otherwise, I'd need to look at people again... but I have at least somewhat settled the thoughts for myself.

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Anywho, Boro agreed most fervently about Greenie and Sally. He was not as enthusiastic about Agan and Glirdy, but he did agree that it was likely they were wolfly. He trusted Nienna and Mira most out of everyone who was him or me. Just in case you were wondering.

out of everyone who was not him or you, you wanted to say, I assume. Anyway... in contrary to people wondering about Lottie's suspects, I suggest we really consider them strongly (especially those which they agreed on). Of course, they are subjectively biased by the fact that it's two Shiriffs who have something in common who are making them, but the fact that two innocent people can communicate and agree on somebody is worth taking into account. Of course a bunch of innocents can be misled by pursuing the same illusion (and it happens all the time), but still - two brains know more than one. How many PMs did you guys exchange, Lottie? Especially the last Night? (Not sure if you are any longer around, but anyway, I think this might be a good thing to say anyway, as for us to take into account in the future - the more you've been able to put together the better.) For that matter, did you or Boro have any fears as to that you might be targeted at Night? (Like that Boro's apology to Fea in the last minute... when I saw it, it seemed like rather an unfortunate thing to say.)

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs. However it's likely that the wolves spend more time looking for possible connections than the innocents. But on the other hand, Lottie might have been a relatively easy lynch today... So I don't really know.

Curious. As I haven't been skimming through the thread much, but I haven't noticed any connection between them, however, thinking about Lottie (wondering whether she is a Wolf or not), I remembered that "I am not evil" saying of her, and came to the conclusion that if I were to believe her, then it basically screams Shiriff, as they are the ones who are not allowed to reveal - so that's as most as she could have said. But maybe your brain is just not as clever as mine or then you are intentionally misleading us (rather clumsily, though) in trying to say that you weren't part of any Night planning.

That said, whereas Agan is starting to slightly annoy me again, I still want to keep myself in check and I don't think she is a Wolf, actually. Not this time. And at least I would hope I am right.

[Thinlómien]

*ahem*

Okay, wagons

- the Lottie-wagon
- the "I'm so concerned Loslote will be lynched, look at this unreasoned crowd against her" wagon
- the sudden Greenie-wagon
- the victorious Fea-wagon

There's something wrong with Lottie...
I didn't look at this wagon through and through, but it seems to me rather simple. A crowd of people living in Finland had been suspecting Lottie (among others or then just mostly her) during the Day and partly agreed with each others points and then they had to go to sleep and vote, around the same time. Most of them (me, Greenie & Legate) chose to vottie (hahaha a typo but let's leave it means "vote Lottie", obv.), some (Aganzir) didn't. Conclusions? If you ask me, I don't think the wagon is necessarily evil. After all, I thought we had good points against Lottie even though they turned out to be wrong, and everybody had a bit of their own grounds so no one was following others blindly. But of course, the Lottie wagon doesn't make us innocent either. What can we conclude, then? At least this: please people, don't mislead yourselves by concluding I must be more innocent than Legate or Greenie because of the placement of my vote. I think we would all have voted Lottie, whatever the order of our votes, but I just happened to decide to go to sleep first.

Eee! Lottie is an easy lynch and people are voting her for bad grounds! Oo, we're all gonna die!
So what's wrong here? Lottie might be an easy Day1 lynch (I don't remember her fate in the games I've played with her so I can't verify this but I trust it if you say so), but the grounds for voting her weren't lousy - even though she's now proven innocent. It makes me slightly annoyed how some people seeked to discredit all suspicion against Lottie despite the fact she was possibly the person against whom there was presented the biggest amound of rational points thus far.
Guilty of expressing concern over possible Lottie lynch:
- Izzy (first)
- Greenie (although she voted her herself, quite fishy)
- Nogrod (see more below, did this twice btw)
- Legate (dislikes the smoothness of the emerging Lottie wagon - a question: am I reading a totally different game than you others?! for what I've seen, there was the joke Fea vote which seemed like an obvious to be retracted vote, my and Greenie's votes, Sally's suspicion and Agan's suspicion and vote for someone else than Lottie... ..what? should we start suspecting Sally now? she's the only one whose approach could be called "smooth" or sneaky... anyway Mr L himself voted Lottie.)
- Shasta
- Sally ("I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her." That is perfectly fine, but later she starts a massive operastion Save Private Lottie, which seems rather fishy - like a wolf who tries to look good.)
- Brinn (amidst general wishy-washy warning against bandwagons)
Guilty of ignoring/discrediting the "proof" against Lottie:
- Nogrod (well might be a bit misleading to place him here but I don't like him calling me and Greenie's votes as "rapid lynching queue" while we had been suspecting Lottie for some time already and just had to go to sleep around the same time, later he said there was too much opportunism involved. From whose part, would you clarify?)
- Boro (called it hogwash for obvious reasons!)
- Zil ("this push against Lottie looks bad" - oh dear, by that point more people had expressed concern over the possible lynch of Lottie than voted or spoken for voting for her , later flip-flops on which is more evil: Lottie herself or the wagon, ends up voting neither.)
- Lottie (takes it as another Day1 wagon against her innocent self, but we can maybe forgive that... ha.)
- Shasta ("reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb" - admitted, but what better reasoning was there around at that time? when I went to sleep, it was in the end of page 2 and Day1 ended on page 6 so I missed quite a lot of discussion... and later Shasta calls voting Lottie bandwagoning on Fea's vote, which is at least from my part absolute nonsense because I was 100% sure Fea'd come back and retract)
- Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")
- Nienna (all her reaction to the points against Lottie: "suspicious bandwagon"... great.)
- Sally and Izzy (Not otherwise, but they discredited Legate's vote. I wouldn't think this too bad for I too raised some eyebrows when I read his vote even though I knew he had had points against her earlier. Still, I'm inclined to think he's not evil.)
- Glirdan (says the bandwagon is ridiculous and asks why get rid of Lottie since she's good at spotting wolves... really, most of us are good at that at our best, and should we lynch those who aren't just to ensure they'll never learn?)
Okay, forgive my slightly personal approach here, but I really think the massive discrediting was slightly weird (and I didn't like it because I can admit I was wrong about Lottie but I don't want to admit I had ridiculous grounds for voting her 'cos I didn't), and can't be all honest (or then some of you guys are a flock of chickens). Looking at this has been helpful for me, though, because now I have some suspects: Greenie, Nog, Zil, Brinn, Shasta, Sally. I bet there are at least one or two wolves among those.
PS. it's interesting Nogrod's very concerned about all the suspicion against Lottie still he is suspicious of her himself...

Fea's vote is so weird she has to be bad.
Skip gave the first vote early on. He grounded his suspicion well although I disagree with what he said.
Nogrod followed, suspecting Fea is sending or receiving cobbler hints. I must say that when I first read his posts I thought he was making mountains out of molehills once again, but it was proven he was right in associating Fea with cobblers (even if he did it for the wrong reasons)!
Brinn is the third, her grounds for voting are mostly the fact that she dislikes Fea's vote (more than suspects it).
Boro votes to save Lottie.
Lottie saves to vote herself.
Conclusions? The fact that Fea got lynched was really random. I don't think we can make much out of this.

Oi! Evil Greenie! Must die!
Shasta starts, says "I don't like bandwagons, I don't like lynching Lottie first constantly, I don't see what's so suspicious about her, and I especially don't like votes made apologetically." People criticised this vote came out of nowhere, but I think it actually has better grounds than many later votes, although I personally disagree with some stuff he says. It's not a very suspicious vote, except maybe exactly because it looks so good and "fresh" and maybe wants to abuse the anti-anti-Lottie mood...
Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.


edit: xed with everybody

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by skippy

But with your angle, holding on to this option would appear suspicious and for wolves to retract his or her vote early on would divert attention away from them unless all others quickly follow suit.

What do you mean by this?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Sorry, would have posted more

Yeah I know, it wasn't an accusation (of not posting enough, not of wolvery), just a remark that there was nothing I considered important in your posts. And the pleasure is mine.

#128: I don't think I'm on the same wavelength with Nog, there are just some differences in the way we think (seems to happen always), but I think he looks quite good for the time being. If he was a wolf, I don't think he would've brought up Fea's behaviour (does the cursed know about her status, could Fea be the cobbler etc).

Originally Posted by Nienna

Mira - she seems very innocent-Mira at the moment

What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Brinn - hmmm she seems like she is forcing normalcy... but I can't really tell

That's what I think of her too - always. I try to be careful not to suspect her every time because of it, but she and I aren't on the same wavelength, either... Although hmm I should probably check some old games (just to get some statistics) because there have been times I've decided not to suspect her simply because she doesn't feel right to me and she's turned out to be a wolf.

Originally Posted by Boro

what exacitically is the deal with all these gushy terms? Babies and sweethearts?

That's the way alliances are made, darling.

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever ), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Has been rather quiet this time around. --- maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?

Izzy as I remember her has never been one of the loudmouths, but I don't know if that's changed during my absence.

Hmm reading Glirdan's post (#142) and it seems my comment about the unlikeliness of pinning all the wolves on day 1 can be more or less ignored. Although I still think it's darn unlikely, and it's dangerous to be so convinced so early.

I think Izzy looks good.

I would love to see more substance from sally. Not too fond of her at the moment.

Originally Posted by ww

Someone please explain to me how eliminating re-votes will help the Non-wolf team later on

It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.

Originally Posted by ww

Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.

Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.

I like Glirdan for now.

I have to go now (going to see a play with a friend, yay!), will be back some time in the evening.

[skip spence]

G'day folks and gentlehobbits...

Skimmed the thread just now and I'm wondering, why is Lottie now though of as a known innocent? Is that based only on Boro's last moment vote retraction?

[Nerwen]

I'd like to comment on the several people toDay who are expressing surprise or confusion where I just don't think it's warranted.

Nienna at #226 "has stopped having any sort of idea what is going on". (May be just be referring to Sally's Game reference, however).

Sally at #229 wants to know:

what the heck happened at the end of the Day yesterDay? Don't get me wrong, yay dead cobbler, but a dead cobbler is not a dead wolf. Sally demands an....an expla.....explanat....some country.....

(Hmmn. Possible hint of wolfish chagrin there?)

Sally, really, what do you mean, "what the heck happened?"

Lommy at #235 is surprised that Fea was the cobbler and had seen no connection between Lottie and Boro.

Agan at #247 agrees with her on both points.

Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...
(...)
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs

Now, firstly, I just can't see why it's so surprising that someone who acted in a typically cobbleresque manner turned out to be, in fact, the cobbler. I know Lommy said she thought Lottie might be the cobbler yesterDay, and it was something that crossed my mind in the early part of the Day– but Fea should have been, it seems to me, a clear runner-up at least.

Secondly– I may of course be developing Nogroditis– but I'm surprised anyone didn't see a possible connection between Boro and Lottie after the end of yesterDay– and having seen it, the idea that they might be the Shirriffs is a logical next step. I mean, it wasn't the only thing that occurred to me– but to say you never noticed, or even more, that you did, but never thought of them being the Shirriffs seems a little disingenuous.

EIDT:X'd since Legate.
EDIT2: word left out.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skip spence

G'day folks and gentlehobbits...

Skimmed the thread just now and I'm wondering, why is Lottie now though of as a known innocent? Is that based only on Boro's last moment vote retraction?

She's not an absolutely known innocent. However, she's claiming to have a specific role (the remaining Shirriff). If she were a wolf she'd risk exposure by the real Shirriff... and to no purpose, that I can see.

Naturally, if there's a counter-claim, we'll have to rethink the situation.

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Lottie - I believe her claim.

Quite innocent
Izzy - as quite often of late, she seems to me the voice of reason and independent-thinking. Some points of hers late yesterDay made me slightly restless, but I think it was simply because we disagreed.
Agan - speaks sense and is sharp, seems genuine. However, you never know of her and I don't like her picking a fight with Lottie the Known Innocent.
Skip - he seems very careful, but I would interpret it as the carefulness of a new player rather than the carefulness of a wolf, at least for now.

Can't tell
Legate - I know I just said I think him innocent, but the posts I cross-posted with looked really fishy, sort of trying to look nice, playact he didn't vote for Lottie yesterDay (and give the most dangerous vote despite his judgement) and now try to be buddybuddy with her. Dislike. Anyway, I need more time to think.
Greenie - I agree her apologetic/pessimistic way of voting was weird, but we must not forget she did suspect Lottie all along. Besides, I'm starting to feel defensive for her since she always gets this kind of suspicion in the beginning, but on the other hand, I'm a bit annoyed that she won't probably be much around toDay either. Grr. Hmm, discarding all mixed sisterly feelings, I can't really judge her yet, that's why she's here.
Wintywinty - as long as he keeps to IC arguments, it's impossible to judge him.
Shasta - I don't know what to make out of him. He seems to think from kind of a quirky point of view, but he isn't necessarily evil.
Morsul - I tend to disagree with him on everything but I'm not sure what it makes him.
Nienna - however much I disagree with him and however much I irrationally suspect her everytime, I must say her actions towards then end of Day1 looked quite innocent. In any case she's a hard nut(ter) to crack.

Slightly suspicious
Nogrod - I definitely don't like his actions towas Lottie and her wagon yesterDay, and his vote was weird (meaning uncharacteristic). However, I tend to disagree and get annoyed with him even when he's innocent, and it goes exactly this way, so I don't want to make quick judgements.
Mira - I remember I suspected her yesterDay, but I have forgotten the reason. Should probably check. I know she had RL reasons to be away yesterDay but it doesn't make her any less quiet and creepy.
Brinn - I don't like her careful and slightly hypocritical-seeming statements, but that's how I interpret and suspect her all the time. In any case, her protest-like vote for Fea and discrediting all the points against Lottie make her someone to watch for me.

Suspicious
Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.
Sally - her Operation Save Private Lottie looks bad, as does the throwaway vote and general wishy-washyness.
Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)


edit: xed with everybody again

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But with your angle, holding on to this option would appear suspicious and for wolves to retract his or her vote early on would divert attention away from them unless all others quickly follow suit.

Originally Posted by Agan

What do you mean by this?

What I mean is that by your reasoning, honest people would want everybody to get rid of their retractable votes, as this is more favourable for the innocent team. And subsequently the players who refuse to throw away their retractable votes would appear suspect for refusing to comply.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that you are making a big deal of this. It may be an honest initiative to remove a possible threat from the wolves. But it may also be a way to make yourself and others look good, to divert suspicion away from you. It is in the innocents best interest to have no retractable votes left in the game, your say, and thus those who keep theirs must be wolves. But must they really? I'm not so sure...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

a question: am I reading a totally different game than you others?! for what I've seen, there was the joke Fea vote which seemed like an obvious to be retracted vote, my and Greenie's votes, Sally's suspicion and Agan's suspicion and vote for someone else than Lottie... ..what? should we start suspecting Sally now? she's the only one whose approach could be called "smooth" or sneaky...

Not sure if I understand what you mean by this... but if you mean what I think you mean, at least for me it was slightly unnerving - influenced by the worries stated by Nogrod - to see the number of Lottie-voters amassing. That's what I'd call "smooth": going on and on, nobody seemed to contest it (at least by that time). Well anyway I think I elaborated on that yesterDay back then.


Now after Lommy's post it made me once again doubt Zil's innocence, returning my somehow bad feeling about him from early yesterDay. For now thinking of it, his action in relation to the Loslote-wagon would seem like a very nice "I-am-a-Wolf, I'll start out of the way but oh look, what those evil people are doing! On the other hand, if you decide all that Lottie is guilty, fine by me, do it, I just want you to lynch somebody else than us Wolves".

Originally Posted by skip spence

G'day folks and gentlehobbits...

Skimmed the thread just now and I'm wondering, why is Lottie now though of as a known innocent? Is that based only on Boro's last moment vote retraction?

Most of all, she revealed herself as Shiriff. Unless there appears another Shiriff claiming otherwise, I trust her. And since nobody did...

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, firstly, I just can't see why it's so surprising that someone who acted in a typically cobbleresque manner turned out to be, in fact, the cobbler. I know Lommy said she thought Lottie might be the cobbler yesterDay, and it was something that crossed my mind in the early part of the Day– but Fea should have been, it seems to me, a clear runner-up at least.

Secondly– I may of course be developing Nogroditis– but I'm surprised anyone didn't see a possible connection Boro and Lottie after the end of yesterDay– and having seen it, the idea that they might be the Shirriffs is a logical next step. I mean, it wasn't the only thing that occurred to me– but to say you never noticed, or even more, that you did, but never thought of them being the Shirriffs seems a little disingenuous.

Just a note here, as I think there is at least one part of it which I can see an explanation for from first-hand experience: even though I'd assume that people who have read the thread and thought about it would come to the conclusions above, it's not necessary that they have read it or came to the conclusions. For instance myself, after I have voted, I went to sleep - and later at Night only checked the outcome and did not much bother myself about who voted whom up to this morning, thus, not thinking about Boro at all (but yes about Loslote, as it was a thing I have been thinking about: so she's not lynched, but that does not mean she's innocent, but have I been wrong? So what did she say? But hey, what was this "I'm not evil!" shouting from her - and *click*, here came the idea). As for Fea, I have not seen her posting anything Cobbler-ish, unless you count the vote (for which there was other explanation offered by Lommy), by the time I went to sleep, there was like one more post from her saying nothing at all, and once again, when I read the rest of the thread, she was already dead and her role revealed. That's just to say that at least when it comes to us Europeans, I could see this as one possible thing happening that somebody might not have read the after-we-went-to-sleep things early or with much care, so I'd be taking it into account. On the other hand, if somebody claims to have read them and they have not spotted anything, that maybe might be somewhat puzzling. But otherwise, well.

EDIT: x-ed with one Nerwen, Lommy and skip

[Thinlómien]

Can I offer a timezoney explanation for somethings?

A bunch of votes for Loslote emerged quite quick because the people who had suspected her happened to be mostly European and had to go to sleep. There was no competing wagon emerging around the same time for obvious reasons: why would any American (or Nogrod ) vote when there was still several hours until the deadline which is evening their time?

And to rephrase Legate, there is also nothing weird in anyone who went to sleep when only 1/3 of the discussion had taken place being surprised by the recent outcomes. I read the Day when I woke up, but I did it only quickly, knowing that if I'm still alive the next Day, I have to reread it anyway because I want to talk about it. That way it was easy to miss significant stuff between Boro and Lottie (and btw while I can admit you can see there's something, I wouldn't definitely call it obvious even now).

Also, when I went to sleep I was certain Fea would come back later and post more sense, as she usually does, so I had no reason to believe her a cobbler, especially as I had a believable excuse for her vote in my head. (And mind you, even though she was a cobbler, it doesn't mean I was wrong about her vote. )

I also wanted to say something NOT related to timezones, but I forgot it...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Suspicious
Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)

I've already explained why I voted the way I did. I've no intention of staying on the defensive all this Day, as I had to yesterDay.

Originally Posted by me

I was actually thinking DL was now, for some reason, so I was rather rushed. Basically, I didn't (and don't) have much against her, but as I said, the other options didn't seem especially bright either.

Originally Posted by me

Of the four, I thought Greenie might seem the worst, but then I remembered Nog saying something about her having a very full RL day. Of the remaining two, I just couldn't choose between them.

There it is. Do with it what you will.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now after Lommy's post it made me once again doubt Zil's innocence, returning my somehow bad feeling about him from early yesterDay. For now thinking of it, his action in relation to the Loslote-wagon would seem like a very nice "I-am-a-Wolf, I'll start out of the way but oh look, what those evil people are doing! On the other hand, if you decide all that Lottie is guilty, fine by me, do it, I just want you to lynch somebody else than us Wolves".

I do find this interesting. A very nice bit of latching onto what may be seen as an easy lynch choice for toDay, laying some groundwork. I wasn't fine with Lottie's lynch. Apparently you were, though.

[Morsul the Dark]

I'm Fairly certain I won't be on before DL today so I always suspect Sally however Lotties Post was nicely confirming

++Sally

If I can I MAY have to use my retraction today if I'm back in time.

However Sally is quite smart whether or not I agree with her. I don't think she'd read my sarcasm as anything but, also she says she wanted to try and get me lynched but "no one would go for that" She admits trying to start a Bandwagon.

Have fun I'll Try to be on later.

[Thinlómien]

Zil -

I know you already explained your vote, but it doesn't make it any less weirder.

ps. That was not a very good start on not being defensive toDay.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I've already explained why I voted the way I did. I've no intention of staying on the defensive all this Day, as I had to yesterDay.

Well, for the sake of being slightly ironic, you wouldn't have to be staying on the defensive if you actually were posting something constructive instead of it. (That's actually my overall weird impression of your performance in this game which I had noted already by the early time of yesterDay and that was the first thing that struck me as weird about you this time.) Anyway...

Originally Posted by Inzil

I do find this interesting. A very nice bit of latching onto what may be seen as an easy lynch choice for toDay, laying some groundwork. I wasn't fine with Lottie's lynch. Apparently you were, though.

Of course I was and I have no problem with that. What are you trying to say now - "look, evil Legate is accusing me, who is white as snow, and I didn't want to lynch Lottie of whom we all well know that she's innocent, while he wanted to lynch our poor Lottie, of whom we all know that she's innocent"? And as for you being fine with Lottie's lynch, I never said that you were encouraging it, but you weren't discouraging it very strongly either. E.g.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hmm. Makes sense, I guess. I might go for Mira in lieu of the Lottie-wagon.
(...)
True, and Lottie could well be a wolf. This train just looks evil to me, though.

That does not sound very "decided" to me. Anyway, the point of what I said about you was not the Lottie part, that was more like an addendum, but the main point of the sentence was that in general, you managed to stay "in the middle" with your behavior. Just like a Wolf who would best profit from letting the village to do the dirty work to actually pick people to lynch, as long as it was a non-Wolf. Your behavior in general looked like that to me - generally flip-flopping up to the point of not taking any initiative of your own.

But whatever, whatever. Please don't make more of what I said than what it was. I am not saying "Inzil MUST BE a Wolf", it was only one thought. However, it would be easy to imagine you as a Wolf - therefore you are on my suspicion list from now on (especially after your reaction now - meaning the thing I quote as second in this post).

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And to rephrase Legate, there is also nothing weird in anyone who went to sleep when only 1/3 of the discussion had taken place being surprised by the recent outcomes. I read the Day when I woke up, but I did it only quickly, knowing that if I'm still alive the next Day, I have to reread it anyway because I want to talk about it. That way it was easy to miss significant stuff between Boro and Lottie (and btw while I can admit you can see there's something, I wouldn't definitely call it obvious even now).

Well, that's fair enough.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, when I went to sleep I was certain Fea would come back later and post more sense, as she usually does, so I had no reason to believe her a cobbler, especially as I had a believable excuse for her vote in my head.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

.As for Fea, I have not seen her posting anything Cobbler-ish, unless you count the vote (for which there was other explanation offered by Lommy)

She made an unexplained vote, then turned up eleven hours later and still gave no explanation, just mocking banter. I'm not saying everyone should have said , "Aha! The cobbler!"– it was Fea, after all– but was her role really that surprising?

Originally Posted by Lommy

Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)

I don't know what to make of Zil's vote. I could see it as either an innocent unable to make up his mind, or a wolf anxious to vote "well", i.e. keep out of a bandwagon on an innocent.

I don't think there's anything in his being jumpy yesterDay* about Nogrod, who was taking a remark totally out of context, and turning a deaf ear to Zil's explanations. Nogrod doesn't come out of that looking very good... however his his last post on the subject makes me think the whole thing may have been a language problem.

Where am I going with this? Nowhere, really. I'm just trying to sort out my thoughts on those two.

*ToDay is another matter.

EDIT: x'd since Zil at 260; edited for clarity.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Lottie just lost the game.

Wilwa just lost the game.


*goes to work on Boro's epic death scene*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

She made an unexplained vote, then turned up eleven hours later and still gave no explanation, just mocking banter. I'm not saying everyone should have said , "Aha! The cobbler!"– it was Fea, after all– but was her role really that surprising?

Well at least for me not "surprising", but not foreseen either. That "mocking banter" was just the thing where I expected her to post something substantial later. But anyway not sure if the question makes sense to examine much...

Whatever, I wanted to say: I am now going to see Lommy, so probably not going to be around at least for a number of hours, but I will definitely at least appear before DL and vote, if nothing else.

[wilwarin538]

Boro's death scene has been edited in.

[skip spence]

The wolves know the identity of the cobbler, right?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.

And I'm more than happy to give it. I admittedly voted Greenie based on no real suspicion of my own. I was pretty confident at that point that Lottie was innocent and was willing to vote for mostly anyone to save her. I really didn't want to vote for Fea because she hadn't posted much and her one vote looked like something that an innocent-Fea would do just to shake things up and get some discussion going. That she was the cobbler only helped solidify this mind frame I'm thinking. I also chose Greenie because at the time (and it was like a minute before deadline) that was who it felt like we decided we could get lynched. There was obviously poor communication, though, as you can see from the votes being all over the place (and all cross-posted) that we almost got Lottie lynched anyway.

On other matters:

I'm with Lottie right now in saying that Sally is screaming wolf to me. I thought so too at the end of yesterDay but we decided we didn't have enough votes to get her lynched. She'll be getting my vote today unless something drastic happens.

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nienna at #226 "has stopped having any sort of idea what is going on". (May be just be referring to Sally's Game reference, however).

Yep that is what I was confused about. All better now.

I think Lommy has a point about timezones and I admit that in the beginning of the Day Lottie was looking a little suspicious but I wanted to give her some time to make herself not-suspicious (which she did) but I could understand why some people who had to go to bed early may have voted for her. This is not saying that there can't be an early-to-bed wolf on the bandwagon too just that I could understand some of the votes.

In a bit I'll be leaving for a few hours but then I'll be back.

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves? I'm having problem figuring out the role Fea would try to play.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves?

No.

ps. Nienna looks innocent now, I liked that post.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, for the sake of being slightly ironic, you wouldn't have to be staying on the defensive if you actually were posting something constructive instead of it. (That's actually my overall weird impression of your performance in this game which I had noted already by the early time of yesterDay and that was the first thing that struck me as weird about you this time.)

Point taken. However, I've been busy RL, and now I'm working with less than 6 hours sleep. But as Lommy said, Nog kept hammering away at one thing that to me should not have been a major issue, and I got caught up in fencing with him over that, to the point that that was all I really had time for yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Of course I was and I have no problem with that. What are you trying to say now - "look, evil Legate is accusing me, who is white as snow, and I didn't want to lynch Lottie of whom we all well know that she's innocent, while he wanted to lynch our poor Lottie, of whom we all know that she's innocent"? And as for you being fine with Lottie's lynch, I never said that you were encouraging it, but you weren't discouraging it very strongly either. E.g.

You're twisting things a bit aren't you? When did I say I was 'white as snow'? Your just appeared to me to be jumping wholeheartedly onto what Lommy had said, and it looked opportunistic.
I actually intended to do an analysis of you, but there were too bloody many smilies in your posts for me to feel like hunting down and deleting.
And anyway, my conclusion was that I couldn't really find any evidence of your likely lupinity.

[Nerwen]

So, I have to vote now– I may change it later, but I can't risk missing the DL again.

++Sally

Now, I think that's the third vote on Sallymouse, which I guess makes it officially a bandwagon. However, the fact is, she does currently look to me like the most suspicious person, particularly after I found this little sequence from yesterDay:

#112

Originally Posted by Shasta

Thiiiis vote on Lottie bothers me. Partiiiiiially because it seems like we lynch her first a lot, and partiiiially because the reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb.

Right now I think Morsul is the most suspicious for his comment about wanting everyone to use up their retractions, but keeping his own.

#113

Originally Posted by Sally

Agreed. (Wow. We really are all mad here.) I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her.

And definitely agreed on Morsul. Hypocrites should always be the first to go. *nods sagely, head droops, starts to snore*

#121

Originally Posted by Shasta

Whoops. On first glance this looked like Morsul was advocating getting rid of our retractions. Didn't catch the sarcasm, my bad.

#122

Lol. You're great. I'm not entirely sure he's joking though, or at least that he's being completely innocent in said joke. But again, paranoid.

This looks to me a lot like a wolf preparing to leap on an easy victim (or turn on a packmate, whatever), then hastily going into damage control mode when it doesn't work out.

As I said, I do mean to be back before DL, and will retract if Sally makes a sufficiently convincing case for her innocence, or if someone else starts looking worse.

EDIT: Only second vote.
EDIT2: added remark; also, Lottie already picked this, which I hadn't noticed.

EDIT

[skip spence]

Let's see then... as this is very bewildering to me I will focus on the tangibles. Fea was lynched and turned out to be the cobbler.

We know that Boro was innocent but now he's dead. Lottie claims to be his Shiriff-partner, which seems to clear her, I agree. Boro took a bullet for a friend, and we should salute him for that.

Ok so from the wolves' perspective it did not matter if Fea or Lottie was lynched? They wouldn't care either way, it's all good.

So any wolf yet to vote would probably keep a low profile when it looked like either one of those two would die, you know act wishy-washy, and then come up with some half-decent explanation to vote for any random person.

Glirdy and Nienna seem to fall into that category. They both seem to have voted for someone unlikely to get lynched almost apologetically just to glide along unnoticed. But, heck, I don't know...

I'm not accusing you of anything... yet.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Popping in for one post while waiting for my fiance to return.

I voted because I thought it'd be the only time I could. Second... well there is no second.

[Inziladun]

My trust of Lottie is at about 99%, since I really think the legitimate remaining Shirriff would have come forward by now if she was lying.
At least that gives me someone whose words I can take as truth, and she is quite adept at spotting wolves. That said, you aren't the Seer, Lottie, so you may not be right about all your suspects.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

Originally Posted by Loslote

I've said why I think Sally's a wolf.

Boro and I agreed most fervently that Greenie was a wolf based on her vote, general air of apologeticness, and other behaviors that I'll mention in the analysis post I will make tomorrow (as in tomorrow, not toMorrow).

Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? ).

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

After what's been said toDay, I think I agree that Sally looks the worst of that quartet.
Of the others, Glirdan and Agan are the ones I would need to look at more closely before I would conclude furriness. I'll try to do that now.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by winty

Finally, many have mentioned how Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.

Sorry, but I just can't help laughing at this because the reasoning seems obviously fabricated since you're just trying to find an excuse many hours later for voting me. You can't vote for someone at the beginning of the Day, then at the end of the Day reason your vote based on things that have been said throughout the Day. Not to mention, the reason itself is extremely poor. I'm good at the game therefore, I must be a wolf? Does that mean to you that anyone who doesn't seem to play the game well must therefore be innocent?

Looks pretty much like newbie behaviour to me, but it doesn't make it any less irritating. I just hope you'll be more logical toDay when going about your suspicions.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd not ignore the Lottie-voters either. True, I don't want to fall into the "one of them has them has to be a wolf" trap, because I've played too many games where wolves have kept right out of a bandwagon. However, the circumstances of that particular one are quite odd.

I never said that we should. In fact, we should not be ignoring anyone because that is how wolves don't get caught. Unfortunately, when there's this many players around it can be really difficult to focus on everyone, unless you have a whole bunch of time on your hands...which most of us don't.

Originally Posted by Legate

Okay, now actually along this train of thought, I have arrived somehow to being more inclined to believe that there might have been a Wolf among Fea voters more probably. If so, then I'd really put my bets on Brinn, as if you look at what she said toDay early, she started assuming a Wolf in Lottie-saving bandwaggon, but she explicitely named Greenie-wagon to be looked at, which could mean downplaying Fea-voters (of whom she is one)... and the more if Greenie was another fellow Wolf of hers.

The only reason I haven't paid attention to the other Fea voters is because I find Nogrod and skip to be reasonable so far. Of course, I realise this is partly because I do agree with them on some levels. I don't recall anything from yesterDay would give me reason to suspect them. Anyone is welcome to look at the Fea bandwagon. After all, it's totally possible Nogrod or skip is a wolf; I just don't see it yet, though that may always change later into the game. Though if you choose to simply focus on me, you'll find that it'll get you nowhere. As for suggesting the Greenie wagon, I said that I thought it's worth looking at, but I have no actual opinion of it at the moment since I have yet to review yesterDay's events.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")

Again, I am skimming through the thread so that's how I interpreted it. There was less content early in the Day which made the silly behaviour more noticeable, but once the larger bulk of posts arrived, it's easier to miss further points made about someone when there's so much to read. I even put in my post:

Originally Posted by me

*Correct me if I'm wrong. I admit I'm not reading posts thoroughly because I'm multi-tasking with schoolwork, so I could easily be missing something here.

No one corrected me, so I wasn't given a reason to think otherwise. Would you like to still show me these serious points against Lottie? Not that it's terribly relevant since it's pretty much certain now she's not a wolf, but I'm still not sure what points you're talking about.

I have somewhere to be soon, so I must go. I'll be back later and will then finally take a closer look at yesterDay (and toDay), but I have to limit myself because I really can't spend the entire evening on WW and not do any schoolwork.

[Inziladun]

I had to eliminate a couple of smilies.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Yay!! It's time to hunt for the Wolvsies and have some tea!! Speaking of tea...Sally would you be so kind as to move your furry little behind into a different pot? That's my homemade blueberry pie with raisins tea you're sleeping in....

First post. IC, with a 'Get those wolves!' thrown in.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

First off, hello wintywinty and welcome!! Second:

Oh my...he really does seem to be a plain old innocent for this comment....yet Nerwen brings up an excellent point:

He very well could be simply a confused innocent or a really smart wolfywolfy....Currently I'm inclined to believe the first.

And Nerwen's sigh threw me off there too...A sigh of exasperation. Perhaps either because she is exasperated with the newbie thing or perhaps a sigh of exasperation of her fellow packmate?

Says he thinks ww is probably innocent, yet leaves open the possibility he and Nerwen are packmates.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Nothing about Day 1 is meaningless. What happens on Day 1 is our foundation for what is to happen in the later Days. Yes, most of the posting at the start is purely IC, random and sometimes completely pointless, but not always. There was a game not too long ago that I played where I got Hunter-Killed by a certain someone on Day 1 *coughMORSULcough* and most of that Day's discussion was purely speculation on some of the rules and thus led to the votes that were placed. (Or maybe I'm mixing that up with the game BEFORE it was restarted

Makes sense here about Day 1's being somewhat useful.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Come Sorry, would have posted more if it weren't for the fact that, as I have mentioned in the Admin thread, a good portion of the Day happens to occur during my sleeping hours and then six hours of schooling (with rehearsals every once in awhile afterwards) so I could not get much in other then IC stuff. By the way, it is a pleasure to play with you for the first time!

Explains lack of posting is due to RL. I can empathise.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

As for all of this retracting of the votes this early, I see the points raised on why it we should do it. However, personally, knowing my track record, I'm going to hold onto mine for a Day or two more.

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

As it stands I am still at a loss of who to suspect and who not to...Lottie kinda stands out for me right now, but that might just be because she thinks I'm a Wolf.

I'm giving Agan a vote pass seeing as it has been a year since she's last played. I'm also giving a vote pass to skip and ww as the newbies to the game....Which leave everyone else.....

Okay, I'm going to go do a little more scrutinizing after I've found something to eat....

Says Lottie stands out because she suspects him. Says Agan, ww, and ss were deserving of Day 1 passes. I concurred with this also.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Quickly doing this for everyone:

Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn (please correct me if I'm wrong on this....)
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea

Okay, will be back shortly

Vote count.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Okay, so I am back and with a slightly clearer (albeit, it's still a little hazed, not gonna lie) view on things.

Nogrod – Cheshire Cat

For some reason I never suspect this guy....Maybe it's just because he always comes across as the level-headed one among us (which is saying something this time around ) or maybe it's just a charm he has....Although his vote for Fea has me a little worried. Voting for her simply for initiating the voting for Lottie? What reason is that? The bandwagon for Lottie (at least the voting anyway) did not start until well AFTER she had voted.....Hmmm....

Wintywinty – Tweedledum

Newbie pass

Boro88 – the Caterpillar

No read on him as of yet....Want to vote him but that would just be a retaliation vote

Isabellkya – White Rabbit

Has been rather quiet this time around. Maybe there is something RL that is preventing her from being here, or maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?

Mira – March Hare

I have no read of my fellow tea patron

Sally – the Dormouse

Seems to be, well, Sally: Confusing and unreadable (and thank you for getting out of the tea pot!) yet I see nothing that indicates Wolvish behavior....yet.

Agan – Queen of Hearts

Giving a pass to her as she hasn't played in a year and I don't want to see her go just yet and has also been making some wonderful contributions to the game.

Inzil – King of Hearts

No read on His Grace

Shasta – Knave of Hearts

His vote for Greenie came out of nowhere and looks to me as if it is a Wolf trying to perhaps save one of his own from being lynched. Yet would a Wolf be so bold?

Lottie – Duchess

I don't know what to make of her....However, last time I played with her, we both were innocent and she got lynched Day 1....after having pinned all three Wolves on Day 1 (The sad thing is it happened to me on Day 2 )

Nerwen – the Dodo

Seemed a little too overprotective of winty initially, but that could easily have been her being exasperated with the newbie.

Legate – Jabberwocky

Has definitely been one of the few people talking sense all Day. Yet his vote for Lottie has me a little perplexed. He stated that he did not like all the bandwagon votes and suspicions for her yet he himself later voted her? True he had stated suspicions of her for awhile, but his vote almost seems as if he's making it to ensure her being lynched....Hmmmm....

Morsul – the Mock Turtle

Has seemed very Morsul like....which bugs me....Yet last time I voted him, he ended up being the Hunter and he Hunter killed me....So I think I'm going to leave him be for the time being.

Nienna – White Queen

Seems to be flying under the radar....perhaps a little too much, at least for my liking. Wolvish tactic to stay clear perhaps?

Fea – Red Queen

Her vote for Lottie is the only thing that holds any suspicion for me, yet it could very well be a Cobbler tactic....However, as pointed out earlier, the Cobbler can prove to be our downfall later in the game. Or maybe the vote was simply to be rid of her retractable vote?

Skip – Humpty Dumpty

Also getting a Newbie pass

Lommy – the Gryphon

I have no read on her.

Greenie – White Knight

Her vote for Lottie seems kind of like a bandwagon vote to me.

Brinniel – Tweedledee

Her posts all well thought out and full of substance


Okay, will make a list, will post it in a few and perhaps with my vote as well.

EDIT: Xed with Zil, Boro, Moddess and who knows who else....

Hmm. What stands out to me is that he knocked Shasta for voting Greenie, but himself noted that her vote for Lottie was bandwaggonish.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

A Vote Update!


Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea
Shasta ----> Greenie
Sally -------> Legate
Nogrod ---> Fea(2)
Zil ----------> Mira(2)

Another vote count.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Not Voting
Winty
Skip
Agan
Brinn
Morsul

Probably Won't Vote
Sally
Nerwen
Boro
Izzy
Mira
Inzil
Nienna
Lommy

Could Vote For
Fea
Lottie
Nogrod
Legate
Greenie
Shasta


By the by, this is not necessarily in order (as in the could vote for, just because Fea is at the top does not mean she's my top suspect)

A list of who he won't, might, and would vote for. It seems fairly consistent with things he'd said before.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

You know Lottie, I've read you're reasoning of suspecting me and I still don't quite understand it. Could I ask you to clarify?

A fair question to Lottie.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Can you explain to me how and when I have been fraternizing with Greenie and Agan? I have not said two words to either of them. As for Sally, yes, I have fraternized with her, IC, as, if you have read the books, our characters go together.

Asks Lottie for more clarification about her suspicions of him.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

And you would know this how? Only way you would be able to know anything about what I would do is if you're a mind-reader.

Now this sounds a little defensive to me, but then it could have been the reaction of an exasperated innocent too.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Okay, I'm going to vote.....

highlight]++Shasta[/highlight]

Yes, this will probably end up being a throw-away vote, but I actually do find him a little suspicious. His vote for Greenie came out of absolutely nowhere and really had no substantial backing to it.

Admits Shasta was a throwaway vote (and it was, because Shasta had no other votes), but his explanation is at least consistent with his earlier remarks about Shasta.
However, I still would wonder why he thought Shasta was bad for voting Greenie, when Glirdan noted Greenie's vote for Lottie looked bandwaggonish.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Well, I didn't vote Lottie cuz I actually think the bandwagon for her is ridiculous, I really do. I want to see her stay. She's pretty good at picking out the Wolves, why the get rid of her?

Wants to see Lottie stay, but he could have picked someone who had a shot of being lynched as an alternate.

Conclusions: I agree with a lot of the smaller points he's brought up, but his vote could have been better. And I know, the same could be said about me.
I'm not convinced he's a wolf, but I'm by no means convinced of his innocence either.

x/d with Brinn

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Only here for the next two minutes or so, so I haven't had time to do more than skim, but I do have one quick thing to say - I still don't like Greenie's vote from yesterday.

I should be back in a few hours with something of more substance.

[wilwarin538]

Votes

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)

Because I'm cool like that.