WW LXI: Grimm Tales

[Mithalwen]

Mira I am fine today now that Phantom and Boro aren't being tiresome... at least I thought I was..... Well Boro is being fairly tiresome and the fact that he is fixated on me rather than say on someone who got an ordo killed might be annoying.

At the risk of sounding equally monomanic... Shasta.... either lying or 1/3 chance of being LRC. If LRC I'd bet the ranch he has been turned.

Love to hear what he has to say...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So the wolves didn't go for Shasta, eh? I thought they might have. Interesting... well? Did you honestly think I'd go a game without suspecting you, sir?

So Boromir's "oft-quoted" vote and its meaning: I realised soon after that the stakes were different there, seeing how you had a number of votes yourself. Yeah, I didn't pay too much attention to the danger you were in. I'm still a bit uncomfortable with how you said it, but: saving yourself, that's ok with me.

Actually phantom, I don't think you want to hear much more from me. There are far too many players here muddying the waters. It might be best to just sit back, let a few folk die, and take it from there. We'll have a lot of info to work with two days hence.

Kidding... (sort of).

As to Nienna's death: she shouldn't have made that horrible vote.

As to the wolves killing Lommy, I reckon they just tried to get lucky and struck for a famous name. Besides, she's played in far too many Werewolf games - it's not like she'll be hurt by being the First Wolf Feast. Of course there could be info in her posts, but in a village this big I don't think the wolves are looking for explicit Seer messages.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

I was at the Tate Modern yesterday too! Gah can't believe I missed it!

To be fair I htink it starts tomorrow for the long bank holiday weekend. Anyway other than the subject it is OT so ... but I hope you are having a lovely time.. the wather is being kind at least ....

[Aganzir]

Grrr you go and kill Lommy right when I finally started getting along with her!

I just spent some hours studying English linguistics (to Mordor with them) with her and she was really angry with complementary word pairs the book talked about: "@%¤! Complementaries don't exist! A zombie is neither dead nor alive!"
Given her situation, I can understand her wrath.

I don't think she looked particularly like a gifted, although her comment about Fea being an evil scheming mastermind could be interpreted as seerish if Fea is a baddie. Nerwen had a good point about her voting Nienna because of that Fea vote, though.
However I think it's possible they thought she was a lover - immortal maiden elven-wise refers to Lúthien. I wouldn't have expected them to go after possible lovers this early, though. She didn't seem to be a particular threat to anyone, either.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I may as well reveal all now. I'm really... the Village Captain Obvious.

That comment cracked me up pretty badly.

Originally Posted by Cab

At this point, the wolves probably just want to cause confusion.

Why? With so many special roles around, I'd imagine they want to get early rid of as many of them as possible. It looks like you were nicely suggesting we can read nothing from Lommy's death because there was no reason the wolves killed her.

Originally Posted by Boro

What's interesting though about the Lommy choice, is they were not likely looking for little red cap. If Shasta is an ordo, and therefor is a chance of him being LRC, they might have wanted to try and pick up the extra player.

How does Lommy's death mean they weren't? Reddie is not a normal cursed who has to be killed in order to change sides, it's enough that the BBW guesses her. If Shasta isn't a wolf himself the BBW could have guessed him and made him a member of their team and we have no way of knowing about it.

I second Greenie's questions to Cab.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Could the wolves have thought they were lovers who had just found each other? Or could the line "watching the situation" have been taken as a Seer-hint?

That sounds a bit far-fetched to me. If they thought Lommy and Boro were lovers, why didn't they kill Boro who was dropping much more hints?
Hmm do the lovers unite as soon as the one guesses the other or only at the beginning of a day/night?

I know I'm being hypocritical as I always suspect people based on how they phrase things and such, but I don't think Boro's suspicion of Mith is very good. To me her posting didn't look very evil, but even if it had, her actions speak quite strongly for her innocence. I just can't see a baddie bringing up the points she did, eg those about Shasta. Yes maybe she might in order to look good, but if she's a wolf and Shasta isn't, lynching a possible Reddie would do more harm than good to her. Unless the wolves have found Reddie already on night 1...
Okay you have a point in that wolf/ordo-LRC/wolf thing though.

Originally Posted by Boro

the Agan buttering up type.

Have I ever told you you're a very good player regardless of whatever role you happen to have? Also, your sig is amusing and your dog cute.

Originally Posted by Boro

It really looks more like votes where they didn't care who ended up getting it

To be honest I didn't remember Hansel & Gretel when I voted. Or, I remembered their existence, but it wasn't on the top of my mind that they could influence the effect of my vote. I don't like the roles because they complicate things too much and I hate the thought of having to weigh all the things my vote can cause to happen before voting. That's not what my brain is best at doing.

Originally Posted by Mith

And on that subject since Nienna and Lommie were ordos that means Shasta, if he is telling the truth has a one in three chance of being Little Red Cap

No, it's also possible one of them was her. I think wilwa said her identity will not be revealed unless she has been turned before she dies.

Originally Posted by Boro

both stressed "Woah Shasta made an ordo claim! Watch the sneaky wolf trying to get us off his tail!"

No I didn't! My intention when pointing it out was to say that revealing is not a good idea for an ordo because it will help the wolves more than us, and I didn't vote for him because of the ordo comment but because of its possible consequences.

Originally Posted by Fea

neither side wins if the Lovers survive, right?

Nope I recall wilwa saying the lovers can win together with both the wolves and the village, they just need to survive.

Now I'm planning to go through the thread and try to sort my thoughts - I don't think I've ever had this hard a time figuring out roles.

[Gaurcrist]

How come some people seem to have a grudge against me for not showing up to vote for one day? Especially you Phantom. I've got my eyes on you. I will not share my thoughts.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nope I recall wilwa saying the lovers can win together with both the wolves and the village, they just need to survive.

Yes.

[Aganzir]

How come so many people seem to be under the impression the wolves must attack Reddie in order to convert her? Correct a poor non-native speaker if she's wrong but to me that "along with the baddies kill choice" looks pretty much like they send two names every night.

Little Red Cap: --- Every Night the Big Bad Wolf sends me a name along with the baddies kill choice, if he guesses Little Red Cap then he has managed to persuade her that he is indeed her Granny, she becomes a baddie. --- if she dies before she is turned I will not reveal her identity, I won’t even tell Mr. BBW, mwahaha.

By the way Gaurcrist you need to be on the invisible mode while playing. You can do it by clicking User CP -> Edit Options and then checking the Use Invisible Mode box.

[Gaurcrist]

Why? Wilwa told me to turn it on.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

How come so many people seem to be under the impression the wolves must attack Reddie in order to convert her? Correct a poor non-native speaker if she's wrong but to me that "along with the baddies kill choice" looks pretty much like they send two names every night.


By the way Gaurcrist you need to be on the invisible mode while playing. You can do it by clicking User CP -> Edit Options and checking the Use Invisible Mode box.

Well, Agan, after reading your post I re-checked the rules. Yeah, I missed that.

Still, now there's no reason not to lynch Shasta.

Also, Gaurcrist: Too funny. I'm watching the phantom too - that creature is a diabolical rogue and requires fist-shaking in his general direction. Bah!

[Mithalwen]

Thanks Aganzir .. I didn't register that...

Maybe I should let up on Shasta .. but.... I want to hear from him ...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gaurcrist

Why? Wilwa told me to turn it on.

Because that way people can't draw conclusions about your role if they for example see you PMing a lot during the night phases. That's just a general thing that contributes to the fairness of the game.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gaur

How come some people seem to have a grudge against me for not showing up to vote for one day? Especially you Phantom.

Oh, yes, I have certainly expressed a huge grudge against you.

Let's take a look at what I said-

Originally Posted by me

Gaurcrist- What the heck? If he's another no-show today then he dies. What should we do about that?

All I do is point out that if you miss another day, you are automatically killed by the Moderator, and I ask what we should do about that in case you don't show up. (In other words, should we cut our losses and lynch someone who is going to die anyway.) But since you showed up that obviously isn't the case any more.

But it's very strange that you would be so incredibly touchy about a harmless comment which does nothing but point to the rules.

And let's take a look at your other post.

Originally Posted by Gaur

In my opinion, there are two people who are acting quite strange, ever since the beginning. There are A Little Green and Boromir. I have one of those feelings in my gut about Boro, and he seems to be the most suspicious. Plus, I don't like his avatar.

Hmm.... So Boro and Green have been "strange". And you would know this because you've played countless games against them, yes? Or perhaps you mean some other kind of strange, in which case you might want to point it out.

And for someone who doesn't like people holding grudges against them for not showing up, you voice a grudge against Boro because of his avatar? Very nice. As this is a participation game, showing up is kinda sorta important. Much more important than having a pleasing avatar.

[Mithalwen]

:Maybe Gaurcrist isn't a poker fan. Can't say the devilfish is my favourite either Taking it out on the new player or some sort of wolf on wolf feint?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mith

Taking it out on the new player or some sort of wolf on wolf feint?

Wolf on wolf? Yeah. That's likely. Early on we hatched our plot for him to completely skip the first day, show up without an apology (players typically say "sorry" when they miss, Gaur), not even bother to be in invisible mode, and make unsupported statements out of the gate.

[Mithalwen]

So just taking it out on a new player then....

[the phantom]

Maybe just a bit. But much of what I say is less "taking it out" on someone as much as it is speaking truth and giving my honest opinion. You can't claim that I'm making this stuff up just for fun.

[Mithalwen]

I am not saying it is untrue and there is a limit to how much slack newbies should be cut but I think that was a bit vitriolic for a total newcomer. I am not even sure if English is his first language.

After that I would be suprised if he comes back.

[Mithalwen]

Right I am off to bed before I turn into a pumpkin (and that is merely a reference to the fact that the midnight hour approaches in my timezone). Good night and I hope the morning will be more constructive.

[the phantom]

Oh, Mith, I'm sure he'll be back. I've seen much worse antics from vet players from time to time, and they get called out on it too. I'm just letting him know what he can and can't get away with. Getting "thrown to the wolves" is the best way to learn the sort of scrutiny you face during a Werewolf game. My first post to him was extremely standard stuff. Tame compared to much that happens. The harsher post was the one where I had to go and explain myself to you after you made the "wolf on wolf" comment and the "taking it out on newbie" comment.

[Kath]

Hi sorry I seem to have run out of time completely this evening! I'm going to have to just vote. From the look at Lommy's posts from yesterDay the one person that popped out as potentially suspicious to me was:

++EOMER

I do find him suspicious so although I would have liked to go through the rest of the posts in more detail I am happy with this vote.

[Mirandir]

I feel rather inclined to agree with phantom on this one. Not necessarily the fact that he's biting Gaurcrist's head off, but that he hasn't been acting in the way he probably should, especially for a newbie.

He claims he doesn't understand why people are getting on him for not voting one day. It's clearly stated in the rules that you need to vote. While some people may make the choice not to vote on Day 1 because of lack of sufficient reasoning, they make a point of showing up and saying it, not just appearing the next day without so much as an apology.

Also, saying peole are suspicious without offering any reasoning whatsoever and then going so far as to claim no reasoning is required is just stupid and arrogant. Some of the more experienced players can get away with going on a gut feeling because they've played with people for considerably longer and know when they're deviating from the norm. Keeping suspicions to yourself for a while in order to give yourself some time to figure things out or see how a certain scenario develops is also valid, but people generally say something.

If I wasn't fairly certain that he was going to miss another vote in the near future I'd vote for him tonight. However, why bother wasting a vote on someone who will most likely just end up modfired?

Develop a grudge against me if you will, Gaurcrist. You rub me the wrong way and I'm not afraid to say it.

---

That all being said, I'm going to finish up a few things online and then finalize my vote before I head off to bed.

[Isabellkya]

Izzy is here baking fresh sweet cakes and catching up.

[Aganzir]

I'm not nearly done with the read-through yet but I'm too tired to go on now so I guess I'll just go and finish it in the morning. Sorry I've been so unhelpful thus far.

However I must say Mith is confusing me.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Maybe I should let up on Shasta .. but.... I want to hear from him ...

Why does the fact that we don't know if Reddie has been turned mean you should let up on him?
And I want to hear from him too, now more than ever.

Also, her suggestion that phantom & Gaurcrist's clash was wolf-on-wolf was weird.

Anyway I'm going now, good night.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am not saying it is untrue and there is a limit to how much slack newbies should be cut but I think that was a bit vitriolic for a total newcomer. I am not even sure if English is his first language.

After that I would be suprised if he comes back.

I hope he isn't the seer, then.
I wonder if he thought I was one of the ones ganging up on him. But all I said was:

Let's see what others have to say today. I wonder if Gaurcrist and some others who have been almost as scarce as he will rear their heads.

At this point I don't read too much into Gaurcrist's words. If it was me though, I would at least apologise for my earlier absence.
For me not much has changed. I still can't figure out Boro or phantom, and "Shasta" makes me think of Shasta Cola, which was sold in my area back in the 80's. I miss that stuff...
Anyway, Shasta hasn't shown up today, has he? I'd like to hear what he has to say before I decide about him.
Agan has done some detailed analysis on things and seems helpful, but I admit to getting a bit lost when the double / triple cross / so A thinks B will do C words start freely flowing.
Eomer has said:

Actually phantom, I don't think you want to hear much more from me. There are far too many players here muddying the waters. It might be best to just sit back, let a few folk die, and take it from there. We'll have a lot of info to work with two days hence.

Taking a step back and watching the fireworks. That might seem to work well for the baddies....
"Greenie" expressed earlier doubt about McCaber and Boro and seems to make sense.
Feanor popped in and made a few decent comments.
Mirandir is suspicious that she wasn't killed last Night.
Nerwen has pretty much stayed under my radar to this point. I think I need to reread all her earlier stuff.
Hmm. I still have a few hours to ponder.

X'd with Agan

[Mirandir]

All right, voting before I fall asleep in the computer lab with the sketchy foreign boys.

++Fea

For the reason I cited earlier. Love you dear!

[Gaurcrist]

There are many things I would like to say, but I will say this: I am sorry for not turning up on the first day, for I just started playing, and I did not completely understand what I should have done.

[Boromir88]

I know I'm being hypocritical as I always suspect people based on how they phrase things and such, but I don't think Boro's suspicion of Mith is very good.~Agan

All I'm saying is I've seen that behavior before from Mith as a wolf. Get stressed out and frustrated then come back after a bit of calming and be fine.

No I didn't! My intention when pointing it out was to say that revealing is not a good idea for an ordo because it will help the wolves more than us, and I didn't vote for him because of the ordo comment but because of its possible consequences.~Agan

I did take that back within the same post after I quoted your post 80. I said something like..."oh wait that really wasn't an over-reaction." That was my mis-step, but Mith's uhh...

Well Boro is being fairly tiresome and the fact that he is fixated on me rather than say on someone who got an ordo killed might be annoying.~Mith

While you have been playing extremely low key throughout your stay here, bringing up "wise" points to make people feel comfortable with you, and staying "fixated on Shasta."

++Mithalwen

My internet has been acting skittish through the mornings, if it holds up I should be back, but if not just want to get my vote in there.

I will not even comment regarding Gaur's reason to vote for me, other than say "I have no comment."

[the phantom]

See, I figured old Gaur would be back. Mith is this village's mother-hen, and I expect her instincts kicked in and she protected the fledgling player. But perhaps he doesn't need mothering. We'll find out.

Originally Posted by Gaurcrist

There are many things I would like to say, but I will say this: I am sorry for not turning up on the first day, for I just started playing, and I did not completely understand what I should have done.

You should have shown up.

But seeing as you can't do anything about that now, your current order of business is to respond to those who question your reasoning. I and others have wondered what you meant by Boro and Green acting "strange", so enlighten us. What have you seen that you don't like from those two? Who knows- you may indeed have spotted something valid. But you're not likely to get any help from other villagers if you won't tell us why we should believe you.

[Boromir88]

Alright, to just say this now, and hopefully prevent any type of blow up where I regret saying something, I need to get this out here now...

I seriously am annoyed by the suspicion based on the way I "speak." It is basically a cop out and I get placed into a corner because there is no way to defend myself, there is no way to prove myself.

You do not know how hard right now I am fighting back the urge to just unleash any thing I have, call you a wolf, and push for your lynching. The reason I don't is because that type of game play does not turn out well for the innocents. You suspect me for being strange, I throw a left hook back at you for making vague, cop-out accusations. And really Lari, Gaur, and whoever else, I think you are innocent who see that I am controversial, unconvential, don't like the things I say, and take that to mean I am a wolf.

I am not going to change the way I speak, I am not going to change how I act, if there is anything I've said that is offensive, I am sorry because I don't mean it. If I give you a headache, I am sorry but take some advil.

If you find me suspicious because I lynched an innocent Nienna. So be it, come out and say it. If you find me suspicious because of whatever I said to Mira, or anyone else, out with it. But I can't defend myself for the way I speak, and I am not going to change it now. Those are cop out suspicions and lynching people for those reasons will get us no where accept a fast wolf victory.

Now I have tried my best to bring out stuff as to why Lommy was killed, I have made my best case against Mith. Despite what Mith has said I have not been fixated on her. I brought up stuff about the phantom, Shasta, Agan. I defended Lommy yesterday, and I've defended McCaber today. This isn't to boast what I have done, but to tell you get past my words, and any type of aggravation I might cause you, and to just make you aware of everything I have been trying to do.

It is the ones who look nice, logical, or simply float on by to be concerned about. Separate the controversial, maybe sometimes rude talk, from wolf behavior. If you don't this is going to be a quick victory for the wolves.

Edit: crossed with tp

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

How does Lommy's death mean they weren't? Reddie is not a normal cursed who has to be killed in order to change sides, it's enough that the BBW guesses her. If Shasta isn't a wolf himself the BBW could have guessed him and made him a member of their team and we have no way of knowing about it.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

How come so many people seem to be under the impression the wolves must attack Reddie in order to convert her? Correct a poor non-native speaker if she's wrong but to me that "along with the baddies kill choice" looks pretty much like they send two names every night.

Yes again, good job for paying attention!

Originally Posted by the phantom

Wolf on wolf? Yeah. That's likely. Early on we hatched our plot for him to completely skip the first day, show up without an apology (players typically say "sorry" when they miss, Gaur), not even bother to be in invisible mode, and make unsupported statements out of the gate.

Be nice.

the phantom- Prince Philip (aka Secret Co-Mod with Wilwa)

Hehe...no.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Izzy is here baking fresh sweet cakes and catching up.

I wants one.

Votes so far:
Boro - 2 (Lari, Gaur)
Eomer - 1 (Kath)
Fea - 1 (Mira)
Mith - 1 (Boro)

[Boromir88]

Lommy was little red cap!

Check out wilwa's narration "small red door," and an emphasis on flowers being everywhere. Little Red Cap (in the tale) got off the trail because of the flowers.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Lommy was little red cap!

Check out wilwa's narration "small red door," and an emphasis on flowers being everywhere. Little Red Cap (in the tale) got off the trail because of the flowers.

I honestly wish I was that brilliant. But I'm not....

There are no hints in the narration, really, I don't have time to think that much. I pretty much make it up as I go.

Happy you're reading them so closely though.

[Inziladun]

All right. I'm having to do most of my thinking now, as I seriously doubt I'll have time to do anything more than vote tomorrow.
I do not see anyone who I am absolutely certain is a baddie.
Due to his recent posts, my misgivings about Boro are pretty much gone. He sounded heartfelt and genuine, and I'm fairly convinced he's at least not a wolf.
However, phantom bears close watching.
Kath has been calmly dropping in from time to time, offering a few perfectly legitimate observations, than quietly disappearing. She has set her vote for Eomer, who I haven't gotten much from, and offered no good reason for doing so.
Mithalwen has been fairly prominent at times, and it's easy to tell she's good at this. As others have stated, I too am concerned about the apparent obsession with Shasta.
As of now, I think my vote will be one of the latter two.

[Inziladun]

Then again, there was Eomer's comment about hanging back I mentioned earlier, and perhaps Kath was thinking of that. I've come to the conclusion that it might not mean anything by itself, but I just don't know what she was keying on with him....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I need to go to bed.
So I need to vote.

Either that or get up long enough before 9am to catch up on reading and vote.

Actually, I like that plan, since there's nobody I particularly suspect right now.

I mean, I don't trust Boro's plea for understanding any more than I ever trust anything he says, but it's not really distrust so much as cautious concern.

I'm still giving New Guy 1 (Zil) and New Guy 2 (other guy; no, just kidding, I really do know your name...) the benefit of the doubt because they're new.

My gut says to lynch people I regularly interact with early, that way I don't have to try to psychoanalyze them later when it's more important that we get things right. It always saddens me to think I've got somebody's character nailed and then find out they've been murdering my team mates in my sleep.

Anyway...

Nap time for little sleepy Feas.

[Nerwen]

Back. Reading. See you soon.

[satansaloser2005]

Just saying now that if I get killed toDay or toNight after I drove 20 miles to get on the internet I might just have to slap someone. With a herring. Just letting you all know in advance.

[/crankiness]

Now, to business....

I really don't think Boro's guilty, just frustrated. So killing him seems, at least to me, a bad plan. Certainly not the most lovely idea I've ever heard.

Eomer, Agan, and maybe Mith are still giving me bad vibes. Alas, I can't talk too long because the laptop battery's not going to last forever, but let's just say the tone of his posts seems rather wolf-ish to me. If I die for not having time to explain, so be it, but I will vote how I feel, and that is....

++Eomer


If I am wrong and by some weird thing he's the Fairy Godmummy or something I suppose you can sacrifice me to save him, but I don't think that's the case. Besides....I want to live!

Anyway, I have to go, and I'll be on for a bit yet just to read through again. Once I leave I will most certainly not be back, which is why I made the above statement.


Someday my internet will come....

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, so a quick list. Not all-inclusive, and not definitive, but have it anyway.


Not Good:
Eomer
Agan
Wilwa


Not Bad:
Shasta
Boro
Nerwen
the girls what run off to England


Not Sure:
Phantom
Mith
the boys what are new

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Mira I am fine today now that Phantom and Boro aren't being tiresome... at least I thought I was..... Well Boro is being fairly tiresome and the fact that he is fixated on me rather than say on someone who got an ordo killed might be annoying.

At the risk of sounding equally monomanic... Shasta.... either lying or 1/3 chance of being LRC. If LRC I'd bet the ranch he has been turned.

Love to hear what he has to say...

Hang on, Mith... let your friendly neighbourhood bookmaker work out the odds... Nope, it's still only a 1-in-5 chance. And there's a 2-in-5 chance Red Cap's already dead.

I checked:

Little Red is not aware of her identity until it is too late, if she dies before she is turned I will not reveal her identity, I won’t even tell Mr. BBW, mwahaha.

So, she could have been Lommy or Nienna... we've got no way of telling.

On the other hand, as Agan points out, there's no reason to think Shasta (if LRC) wasn't turned last Night– again, we wouldn't know.

Important– regarding toDay's favourites:

Eomer and Boro both seemed to think LRC was a normal Cursed role, i.e. has to be Night-killed in order to be turned. I should say this points to their innocence– or at least to their non-lupinity. They could be faking, of course... but do consider this point before voting either of them.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Eomer and Boro both seemed to think LRC was a normal Cursed role, i.e. has to be Night-killed in order to be turned.

Now that's interesting. I wasn't really considering either of them yet, but it's good for the future.

Can I apologize for today? I didn't do a lot here, but I'll be back a good 2 hours before DL. Preliminary thoughts run anywhere from Agan to Fea, and I still rather like Boro and tp.