WWLVIII: Escape From Angband (or Behavioral Modification)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Bah. Nogrod, I'm sorry. I just went back and looked at your post.

That aside, I still don't think that whether or not someone has a posting requirement is indicative of evilness. As I've already said, I don't have one; neither, apparently, does Rikae. So you're wrong in stating that everyone has one. Everyone should have one? Possibly, but that's an argument you'll have to take up with our dear Modduck.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Me

Show me someone else who has suspected anyone with any grounds so far

Okay. Toning that down a little bit I am. There have been some individual suspicions thrown around, although I think not any consistent cases or actual scenarios or ones that would actually be reasonable grounds for a case and a vote.

Sorry, I got frustrated with all this nonsense going about and all around - and as I need to go to sleep soon enough Rikae's vote (and Shasta's speculation about his vote) just made me over-state the things from pure frustration.

[Isabellkya]

Sally did say the game would mess with our minds. As well that it would "require you all to think outside the box in terms of how you normally approach Werewolf."

So I think if you are going to be a stickler for parts of what was posted by the Moddess on the Admin thread- then you should do it for all.

We all might as well throw what we consider to be normal and expectant out the window right now and be done with it. Looking at everything through fresh and new eyes - rather than those of comparing and past performances.


X'd with Mith, Shasta and Nog.

[Thinlómien]

Alright, a list

Innocent
Thinlómien - innocent as a vegetable
Feanor of the Peredhil - seems like an ordo with painful requirements
Shastanis Althreduin - the same
Durelin - ordo with nice posting requirements
Nogrod - almost only one making sense this far
Lari - looks innocent despite all banter

Ok
wilwarin538 and Isabellkya - weirdly enough, I keep mixing them up in this game, and don't have much to say for or against
Nerwen - can't read her, could be an ordo with fangurl requirement or a wolf hiding behind a fangurl pretense
Rikae and Mac - both don't bother and do bother me at the same time
Nienna - gets the newbie free pass for today
Mithalwen - no idea
Gwathagor - under the radar
Legate of Amon Lanc - is weirdly silent but otherwise ok

Suspicious
Brinniel - should have the sense not get stuck on bantering
Mirandir - too chatty (I doubt sally would have made someone just allowed to chat, ergo Mira = cobbler or wolf)
Kath - has a sly manner, just, can't phrase it any better
Nilpaurion Felagund - looks like a wolf that is trying to hide

edit: xed

[Mithalwen]

If we have to be different ..I suppose that means NOT lynching Gwathagor day one, me not voting Nogrod for the hell of it.. *sigh*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Actually, I think they did provoke discussion. At least i started suspecting them and still do.

So can you pinpoint someone from there? So you suspect all the four-five? Whom would you choose from there?

They provoked discussion in a sense that lots of people said that was waay overboard and toilsome to read - but did it give something to pick up upon on someone in special?

I don't think it did. So was it of any good for the game? No. Was it something that helped us to go after a baddie? No. Was there something they said that someone could pick from there and start making a case? No.

All the reasonable discussion eg. "playing this game" has come afterwards and could have been done without those four first pages (not including the few posts I already mentioned erarlier).

How much I may suspect some people I might be tempted to vote for someone only talking nonsense toDay. And especially in this kind of a game which is already crazy enough without us making it even more unfathomable by just talking nonsense!

Originally Posted by Shasta

I still don't think that whether or not someone has a posting requirement is indicative of evilness.

Neither do I. If everyone, good and bad alike (and all in between if htere be such persons) have requirement then of course having a requirement on you is not a mark of evil... And I know it also from my personal experience: I have posting requirement and am an ordo. Where did you get that idea from?

Originally Posted by Shasta

As I've already said, I don't have one; neither, apparently, does Rikae. So you're wrong in stating that everyone has one. Everyone should have one? Possibly, but that's an argument you'll have to take up with our dear Modduck.

Now whether you are a wereduck who tries to help his mate or a cobbler seeing a chance of helping a duck by that (untrue) statement - or whether Sally has made a mistake, or I have misinterpreted the basic idea of this game wrong... well these are all possibilities.

Re-reading the rules makes me still stick to my interpretation of them - that everyone, all, had to do something different this time eg. not play only as they themselves would play but to be required to do something else as well. Why else would there be all those countless reminders of how she would wish to meddle with all of us and how everyone would have to step out from their normal approach to the werewolf if some people just were plain ordos?

I just don't believe it.

[satansaloser2005]

Everyone has EITHER a role OR some kind of posting requirement. Most have both, but not everyone does. Some people's role dictates how they behave, while others have....well, let's just say cracked out instructions. The point of the game was that no one was just a standard role or an ordo who could float through the game.


And please stop telling people if you don't have a posting requirement/that you do and what it is. Posting requirements (such as volume level or other crap) have nothing to do with a person's role and are just to make the game more random. The fact that someone does or does not have a posting requirement has no bearing on their alignment.


That is all. Well, not quite, but I must pop out for a second, so that's all for now.

[Kath]

Ooh and there we have the first real misunderstanding of the game! It does seem to be due to the language barrier again I think - there wouldn't have been half such a strong reaction if Nogrod hadn't used the word 'lie'. Lets just watch that a little.

Now I have to vote soon because I need to get to bed. I'm going to have a wander through the thread, see if I can think of anything.

My only comment right now is that I'm a little worried about a Day 1 vote for Gwath. I know his playing style is irritating but how many times has he been lynched early recently - if we're giving newbies a bit of leeway I think we should do the same for him.

I'm thinking something similar about Nog actually. This time especially it seems suspicion against him is based around that unfortunate comment.

[satansaloser2005]

Lynch Gwath toDay and I'll modfire the lot of you. Only applies to toDay, but I'm sick of the poor kid lynched at the start of the game. He lives through the Day. (And no, I really won't modfire the lot of you, but I'd appreciate it if you don't kill him on the first Day.) Manage to lynch Phantom and I'll send you all cookies.


That is all! *cheery face* Oh wait, I lied.



One of the people in our youth group just had a baby so tonight instead of having normal youth service we're going to go see her and her spawn. I shouldn't be gone past the deadline, but in case I am I'm trusting all of you to stop posting at 10pm and be good little minions until I get back. Just to let you know so you don't wonder why the Day's not being called.


K. THAT is all. Enjoy!

[Kath]

Oh now having just seen sally's post I want to vote phantom! I said we should earlier and now I have mod approval. And the promise of cookies!

Other than phantom I would be tempted to vote Brinn. Haven't seen a huge amount from her since all the randomness - could be due to RL stuff but not sure.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Everyone has EITHER a role OR some kind of posting requirement. Most have both, but not everyone does. Some people's role dictates how they behave, while others have....well, let's just say cracked out instructions. The point of the game was that no one was just a standard role or an ordo who could float through the game.

Okay. Thanks.

Oh my. These situations suck always. Whether to speak openly or to tactically try to shut up and hope the baddies don't connect the dots?

What Sally just said cleared a few things but her announcement also gave us some clear guidelines to what some people are not and I do not believe all the Ducks here are that stupid they shouldn't read the following from her words. Also in this game I think one needs to talk as the conventional tactics might be so wrong anyway. And I'm a bit tired with all this nonsense anyway.

So let's talk this out.

If everyone has something (role and/or a requirement) so as not to make any plain ordos in this game it means that:

- most people have both a role and a requirement to do something
- those that have no role must have a requirement of sorts
- there are people with only a role but not a requirement

Rikae's reactions I can now find the most curious. She probably has a role and - as someone intelligent as she is and if being gifted - she would not have reacted that way. I thought already before Sally's revelation that her vote for me was a wolvish reaction/retaliation (especially as she is able to come back later and talk herself out of it if necessary whereas I need to go to sleep for toDay in an instant - so the unnecessarily early vote was very convenient indeed - and the way she had to add the framing of the "age-old feud" between us which I think is more than a bit overexaggerating it), but this kind of makes me more positive of it.

The ranger(s) should now think carefully as Sally's reveal might bear consequences.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right. I don't like Kath, but that's just the typical way she always unnerves me.
Fea may be normal, looks normal, more or less, this far not any bad, really.
Brinniel I am not sure of, there was something sinister in there.
wilwarin538 looks more or less sensible, as well as Shastanis Althreduin and to an extent, Durelin. Isabellkya too.
Nogrod is just Nogrod. Mith looked normal, too. Lommy as well, to the point that it makes me wonder a bit.

Mirandir is one of the crazies posting four pages about nothing, eh?
Nerwen is the craziest person possible, I won't be surprised if that was a Duck.
Rikae was weird. Mac was weird. Lari is somebody. Nienna as well. Gwathagor. Nilp. I like the last one. Where is he? Is he around? Had he posted? I didn't notice.

[Mithalwen]

Well it is time I went and I hope to be more use later in the game - this really did catch me on the hop. I will resist the temptation to vote Kath (unfinished wereduck business), Nogrod (old times sake) or Fea (mercy killing - whatever she is having to do she is hating it.

So with the exemptions given earlier and the Gwath veto...

++Lariren Shadow

Far to chatty in a slightly manic way - huge post count .... unnerving. Nothin better to go on for now.

[Kath]

Alright, I'm going to go with:

++BRINN

Because that's a more useful if less fun vote than phantom. I don't know whether she might have RL reasons for having posted little other than bater recently but I can't hang around to see if she reappears with more later.

[Nogrod]

I'm torn apart just as I would have to vote.

I suspect Rikae quite a bit but am not sure if it is enough to lynch someone who does not speak nonsense all the time.

I still suspect Dury and am in confusion how to look at her more consiliatory tone of late; whether it speaks good or evil of her.

I would be more than happy to lynch the phantom as Kath proposed but sadly that would not help us even a tiny little bit.

I am drawn to vote for one of our nonsensers as well. If we have a game of talking and suspecting we should all play it. That would include at least Lari, Mira and Brinn. From those belonging to the same group I'd refrain from voting for Mith (it looks like she is not in this game wholeheartedly), Gwath (like Sally said; too many speedy lynches to be fair to him) and Nienna (first game benefit of doubt).

EDIT: x'd from my last one

[Mithalwen]

Now I am in I will give it as much attention as I can... but my heart.... is with the Phantom and lynching him will hurt me more than him

[Brinniel]

Garr, I got a vote because I was in class all day? I'm here now, though I can't promise I'll post too much. Keep in mind that Tuesday-Thursday, I'm gone for at least eight hours of the day, not to mention I've had a really frustrating week which has put me in a sour/stressed out mood. I only got three hours of sleep last night...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

but my heart.... is with the Phantom and lynching him will hurt me more than him

What's happened to you lately? Have you consulted a doctor?


Of those "banterers only" I could vote for, I can only say the following right now.

Mirandir seems to have been the "lynch her!" - person. Calling a lynch for anything and all the time - jokingly of course - but still that seems to have been her modus operandi. I do not think she is a good-willed person but probably a cobbler more than a wereduck/-goose whatever.

Lari has made some interesting things after that banter-phase, like this speculation of a "good-cobbler" which Mac questioned for a reason. I think her explanation of that as a goodie who has more than one vote looks quite terribly fabricated (there was that kind of role earlier but that was not a cobbler) - and in a way something she possibly felt she had to come up with when she thought she was in trouble being questioned. That is no cobbler. Cobbler is something and wants to do the other thing.

The best possibility of a good cobbler I could come up with is one who wants to look foul but to make the case of the goodies behind that foul-mask (and that would require some extraordinary game-mechanics where the trust of the wolves could pay off to the good-cobbler and the village - maybe I'll include one in my next game from this idea?).

But her later idea about her, Nienna and Mira being together with a task from Day2 on looks even more weird. Like she wanted to press the indistinguishability of the three from each other. A wolf would love to make that impression: I am something these two are as well... and we're indistinguishable anyway we three? So you can't choose...

Brinn I really don't know what to say about her. She hasn't basically made any sense and she is one who should be able to do that. *Huge disappointment* I know she's the master-deceiver and manages to look innocent everytime - but she has also been unduly lynched for that a many times. And to get personal: she has been responsible of killing me in quite a many games lately far too early. *bad girl!* (takes back a bit after seeing her last post)

Need to think a minute about this all.

Where are you guys? There are gazillions of people in the invisible mode online but only a few post here so many of you must be around!

Many people have a role eg. they won't post as not to be suspected. Just check who could post and who is not doing it and make your calculations from that toMorrow. (meaning Mith is innocent as well as Brinn - possibly - and what about Legate, Lommy... bad! Unless they come up with a huge post in the near future explaining their silence right now with the fact that they are doing great tasks taking all their attention for hours).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

and what about Legate, Lommy... bad! Unless they come up with a huge post in the near future explaining their silence right now with the fact that they are doing great tasks taking all their attention for hours).

Does talking to each other on MSN count?

[Brinniel]

Okay, due to this behaviour modification, we really need to watch how we vote. That means we shouldn't vote for someone because they're too chatty, don't post enough, act annoying, etc. You never know...it could be a modification assignment. Instead, we should suspect/lynch based on who and what reasons players suspect one another. Going in that direction is more likely going to catch us a were-duck rather than just examining posting style, lack of serious participation, etc. In fact, I think it may be smart to carefully look at those who do choose to vote for someone based only on behaviour.

I'm glad Sally rejected a possible Gwath since I don't think it'd be fair for him to be lynched toDay after being wrongfully lynched on Day 1 last game. I won't vote Nogrod toDay either since I promised not to and too long have I been responsible for his death.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Garr, I got a vote because I was in class all day? I'm here now, though I can't promise I'll post too much. Keep in mind that Tuesday-Thursday, I'm gone for at least eight hours of the day, not to mention I've had a really frustrating week which has put me in a sour/stressed out mood. I only got three hours of sleep last night...

*hugs*

and just fyi i student teach all day so i apologize for the large gaps in my posting and that also means that i must accomplish sleep.

So far it seems like a lot of people are accusing a lot of other people based on very little considering there has only been one day's worth of posting. After toNight we should know much more or even after voting toDay. I'm going to read back through and see if i can come up with anything concrete and if not i'll probably be voting based on gut feelings.

X-ed with everyone since the Brinn quote

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Okay, due to this behaviour modification, we really need to watch how we vote. That means we shouldn't vote for someone because they're too chatty, don't post enough, act annoying, etc. You never know...it could be a modification assignment. Instead, we should suspect/lynch based on who and what reasons players suspect one another. Going in that direction is more likely going to catch us a were-duck rather than just examining posting style, lack of serious participation, etc. In fact, I think it may be smart to carefully look at those who do choose to vote for someone based only on behaviour.

Hear! Hear! That was really sensible.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Does talking to each other on MSN count?

I don't want to get a tough with this as Mith did the last time around but there is actually something that kind of is bad for the game there.

Not that people shouldn't socialise at all when a game is underway but when people interact privately while a game is on there is a feeling of... Well, hard to say.

I know we have lived under a same roof during weekends while a game has been on but that's a bit different. Or then I'm just an oldie not seeing the exact similarity.

Whatever. I have no time for this discussion anyway as I need to wake up quite early and I need to decide on my vote like now (2AM here).

So just to make a mild protest.

[Thinlómien]

But daddy dear, I swear the game has not and will not be mentioned.

I now know what's Nog's posting requirement - he's the complainer and has to complain about everything!

To be blunt, my problem is also that I can't get a grip of this game so I'm doing other stuff than trying to get a grip - talking with people on MSN, hanging around in Facebook etc. Pitiful, I know. I'll try to come up with something productive before I go to sleep.

[Durelin]

So, about those who have been voted so far...

Nogrod bothers me but I do not think he is of evil sorts.

Lari seems like a fine choice, really. I'd like to give her a chance to do some more posting toDay, though. So far she's been pretty much all banter, and one thing in one of her few substantial posts bothered me:

Originally Posted by Lari

Clearly we are a trio of were-librarians...I feel an idea for a WW game coming on...

Or we were all hanously bored at work so we kept going on this. Or two of us where hanously bored, goaded on by the third and one of us actually has to post banter and nothing else. You don't know. Maybe all of us have to post only banter and nothing serious.

Did you really feel the need to defend yourself from my nonsensical summary? That's pretty odd.

Brinniel so far has been on the edge of everything, and I'm not sure what to think of her. I see she's around now, though, and really has some good things to say. Except that I have no idea how we're ever to vote for someone except based on their behavior...you can base it purely on who votes for whom but is that necessarily separate of their behavior... An easy vote at the time...

So Gwath. I wish he was...um...around, but...Mac's vote really bothers me. Okay, 'random' Day 1 vote (though people always claim it's never random - watch me!), but...

Originally Posted by Mac

There are some people for who I could justify a vote for, but I don't feel extremely comfortable with either. I think I'll vote for someone who only bantered so far. It's Nienna's first game and Miri told us she will post something worthwhile later, so they're off the hook. Unless I'm forgetting someone, this leaves Brinn and Gwath.

Just a funny way of going about it. Just say it's random, or try a little harder to rationalize it. And you know, Fea and Nilp's contribution to the game has been about the same as Gwath's and Brinniel's, Fea just slightly higher in post count, so I'm not sure why they were not included in your options.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Instead, we should suspect/lynch based on who and what reasons players suspect one another.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Hear! Hear! That was really sensible.

Unless you have an obligation to protect someone and/or attack someone else because of what your "role" * is...

I don't like the way too many of you look like trying to fool others or act like total ignorants... Sally wished to make this insane, and I think there are people around who don't know whether the alliances / feuds you have been ordered to make are clear (eg. you don't know whether people you should defend or like/dislike LotR-wise are good or not in-gamewise, and vice versa).

Why are you guys hiding? You have a role? It looks like most of us have. Don't hide behind it. If you all act like a "ducking away" gifted there will be no game but just a lottery! We all have secrets so let's play with this rare chance of gaming full-steam!

You're not that important, anyone of you alone, when we all have some roles to fill!

*Role in this sense of whether you're Aragorn, Gandalf, Hama, Frodo... whatever; and who is your LotR friend or enemy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Okay, due to this behaviour modification, we really need to watch how we vote. That means we shouldn't vote for someone because they're too chatty, don't post enough, act annoying, etc. You never know...it could be a modification assignment. Instead, we should suspect/lynch based on who and what reasons players suspect one another. Going in that direction is more likely going to catch us a were-duck rather than just examining posting style, lack of serious participation, etc. In fact, I think it may be smart to carefully look at those who do choose to vote for someone based only on behaviour.

Perfectly, completely agreed. Makes me think good of ye.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

and what about Legate, Lommy... bad! Unless they come up with a huge post in the near future explaining their silence right now with the fact that they are doing great tasks taking all their attention for hours).

I am sorry, sir. Is that sufficient?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't want to get a tough with this as Mith did the last time around but there is actually something that kind of is bad for the game there.

Not that people shouldn't socialise at all when a game is underway but when people interact privately while a game is on there is a feeling of... Well, hard to say.

But it does not concern the game at all. Besides, I never talk about WW outside the game (except when I am safely dead). (/end of out-game note)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

*Role in this sense of whether you're Aragorn, Gandalf, Hama, Frodo... whatever; and who is your LotR friend or enemy.

And where did you get the idea people are Aragorn, Gandalf, Háma or Frodo?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Unless you have an obligation to protect someone and/or attack someone else because of what your "role" * is...

I find that slightly unlikely... it would be quite unfair... Unless there were two people who were told to get each other lynched, but I think that should be spotted easily enough.

edit: xed with Legate... and yeah, I'm not Háma or Frodo either

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Instead, we should suspect/lynch based on who and what reasons players suspect one another.

(Good sentence to point out, I steal the quote from Nog) But is that really removed from their 'behavior', whatever our definition?

Nogrod, your last post confuses me greatly. Are you specifically addressing...Brinn and Lommy +...?

And LotR roles? I understand this is the Downs and all, but I'm not getting you.

But I don't care if I get an explanation and promise I won't go voting you for being confusing or anything. I don't want to keep you here when it's so late.

(Edit: Crossed with Legate and Lommy. Ah, they don't get him either...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What are the votes this far anyway?

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't want to get a tough with this as Mith did the last time around but there is actually something that kind of is bad for the game there.

Not that people shouldn't socialise at all when a game is underway but when people interact privately while a game is on there is a feeling of... Well, hard to say.

Since there are several players in this game who know one another quite well, private interactions are a bit unavoidable. So long as it doesn't affect the game or its outcome in any way, I see no problem with members part of the same game IMing each other.

[Durelin]

Lommy and Legate, you are so cute right now, btw.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate

I am sorry, sir. Is that sufficient?

No it is not. I never said it was. How so touchy about a side-sentence?

Originally Posted by Legate

I never talk about WW outside the game

I do actually believe you, but that's not so simple... and really that was a pointing out of a principle, not a point made against any particular people this game.

Originally Posted by Legate

And where did you get the idea people are Aragorn, Gandalf, Háma or Frodo?

Well I am a person from the LotR in this game and I have my loyalties - notwithstanding who I think they are ingamewise.

Originally Posted by Lommy

it would be quite unfair...

You really thought this would be a fair game for the player? Maybe you have a baddie role that is clear-cut and easy with no extra-requirements, but I really have to try to balance what I say between the requirements I have (not to be modfired for not obeying) and what I think myself.

[Durelin]

The Votes:

234 Rikae >> Nogrod (1)
237 Macalaure >> Gwathagor (1)
253 Mithalwen >> Lariren (1)
254 Kath >> Brinniel (1)

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Lommy and Legate, you are so cute right now, btw.

Awww thanks.

*is freaked out by Noggie and his role* (Hmmm... maybe he's Lobelia and has to complain about everything like I suggested... )

I feel like I could vote Lari. It's the vote I'd probably feel the most comfortable with. (Although, that does not guarantee it's a good vote.)


edit: xed with Durie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

No it is not. I never said it was. How so touchy about a side-sentence?

Hey, nay It was not touchy. I could have put a smiley there. It was a question, rather jesting actually.

Well I am a person from the LotR in this game and I have my loyalties - notwithstanding who I think they are ingamewise.

Great, as Phantom (in P&A, the volume where Alien's mother appears for the first time) would say, now that just raises forther questions...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, and thank you, Dury (For the votes also )

Not very much, it seems.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You sicken me all.

A plague on all your posts.

++Village

++Sally and Mnemo

++the phantom

I'll be here tomorrow, though now I wish I weren't.

Post-traumatic possums: My mum is, of course, exempted from the sickening and the plague, and, oh yeah, the vote:

--Mithalwen (*hugs*)

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Unless you have an obligation to protect someone and/or attack someone else because of what your "role" * is...

A role is a role and not the same as behaviour modification. Suspicions and votes can give us clues to roles as people will make suspicions based on what their own role is. And while someone's behaviour may be entirely screwed up, I can't imagine the modification alone would ultimately affect their vote. Though I could be wrong...this is Sally's game after all...