Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[Aiwendil]

Haven’t bought the book (yet), but I read the appendix on the “Composition of the Text” and glanced through the narrative today in Barnes & Noble. Some thoughts/reactions (note, SPOILERS follow for those who have read neither the Silmarillion nor UT):

- As expected, the text is mostly the same as the ‘Narn’ found in UT. Moreover, it appears that CT restricted himself to ‘Narn-tradition’ texts (i.e. texts dating from and associated with Tolkien’s 1950s work on the Turin saga) in compiling the narrative. There is nothing (as far as I could tell) interpolated from independent versions of the story nor from independent essays or notes. This is quite consistent with, and good in light of, CT’s apparent goal of making CoH primarily a coherent piece of literature.

- One detail of the plot has been changed, correcting what CT believes to have been an error in his previous interpretation of the texts: the gift of Anglachel to Beleg takes place when Beleg first sets out to seek Turin, and thus before Beleg’s time with the outlaws, rather than after the battle at Amon Rudh. This is a more significant point than it may at first seem, since it implies that Anglachel was Beleg’s sword during the whole period of Dor-Cuarthol and its two captains.

- CT has been rather conservative in implementing changes to the text that were merely ‘projected’ by his father. For example, he does not extend the history of the Dragon-helm beyond the battle at Amon Rudh, nor (if my brief glance is to be trusted) does he take up the projected events relating to Beleg’s healing of Androg and Mim’s dismay thereat. (Actually, now that I think about it I’m not so sure I had a good look at this section; I may be wrong). He also retains Orodreth’s position in the genealogies as the son of Finarfin and plays it safe, as it were, by omitting Gil-Galad entirely.

- There are, however, a few short passages here and there that do not appear in UT nor in the ’77 Silmarillion, nor HoMe, yet which are apparently from the body of ‘Narn’ texts. One of these, occuring in the first chapter, tells in very general terms that Hurin and Huor from time to time accompanied the men of Brethil in raids against the Orcs. This is notable in that it passes entirely over the Dagor Bragollach, which in other texts provides the motive for their being involved in fighting against the Orcs. But this is probably just an omission (no doubt on JRRT’s part rather than CT’s) for the sake of keeping the narrative’s focus from wandering.

- Another passage not found elsewhere (as far as I can remember) is that found at the meeting of Beleg and Gwindor, telling of Gwindor’s escape from Angband. A very similar passage is to be found in the ’77 but with the omission of certain details, most notably Gwindor’s loss of a hand. I am curious as to why this has not appeared before (CT offers no explanation). In any case, it is a very nice touch, giving a concrete physical manifestation to the change and dimunition of Gwindor following his captivity.

- He mentions that the name ‘Saeros’ was replaced by ‘Orgol’ (nearly a reversion to the old ‘Orgof’). Well I never!

[davem]

And

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ent...2?OpenDocument

&

http://tolkien-studies.com/blog/inde...page=1&paged=1

[Mithalwen]

I have now started to read it properly and I am enjoying it though I haven't examined the relevant bits of HoME enough to comment on the editorial. In fact I have avoided the relevant parts of the Silmarillion and UT since I knew this volume was being issued to let me give it at least one reading without the memroy of the other versions too fresh in the mind.

The temptation to look is strong though - I knew Sador was lame but I thought his foot was maimed not lost and now wish to look and see if it is one of those wrong ideas you get in your head (such as my enduring idea that the soles of hobbits feet were hairy ) or an actual change. But I do thing it is a healthy thing, for me at least to read it alone first - I have got so used to treating the books as reference materials and it is a real pleasure to let the story take over.

Also the book itself is delightful - makes a change from my usual dog eared paperbacks - and I find the line drawings are particularly charming. I fear that Amazon's reccomendations may turn me into a destitute junkie for hardbacked books

[Lalaith]

Have you got the deluxe or ordinary version, Mith? Can anyone tell me what the difference is? (I've got the ordinary one)

Do you think we should have a thread purely for literary discussion, for those who have read/are reading it?

I'm still in the early stages of reading but I'm already excited by what Christopher has to say in the introduction, about Tolkien's views on the consequences of Hurin defying Morgoth. The child-like conversations between Turin and Sador about the relationship between men and elves are something I don't remember having read before, but I've only read the Narn in the Sil and UT versions, I don't have HoME.


Back to the reviews - the Guardian today had a round-up of what the reviews on CoH said. Reviewers seem to either totally love it or absolutely hate it.
I can actually quite sympathise with reviewers who hate it, because if you don't like or "get" this sort of thing in the first place, then the literary devices Tolkien uses - reams of place names, characters changing their names constantly, and so on - would drive you mad.
I of course *do* like that sort of thing, very much, but I can accept that there are lots of perfectly intelligent literary people who have different tastes. In the same way that my neighbour, who works in the music industry and would therefore, one assumes, know his stuff, is obsessed with Bruce Springsteen. I just don't get it. *shrugs*

[Mithalwen]

I have the deluxe which is slipcased - covered with the same scabious blue cloth as the half bindings of the book. It has the dragon helm and the JRRT monogram embossed in gold. Teh slipcover of the ordinary versionis the frontispiece.

I don't know if the ordo has the same illustrations - various colour landscapes and the pencil drawings in the text . The deluxe is a larger format and has high grade paper as well as a more substantial binding. It is a "serious" book - I mean I received a hard copy of UT in the same post and while it is nice it is not in the same league. I am reading Hurin with tissue paper around the cover to prevent finger marks even .. and it certainly won't be read with a glass of wine/cup of tea/ crumpet itn the other mitt....

[davem]

I have the standard ed., as Lal bought the de-luxe. The only difference (apart from slightly higher quality materials) is that the DL has the cover illustration from the standard as a colour plate inside. There are no 'extras' in the DL. Certainly the DL looks nice alongside the matching DL Hobbit & LotR. I hear Harper Collins are considering a matching Sil DL for the 30th anniversary this year.


More stuff

http://www.therecord.com/NASApp/cs/C...=1024322418133

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/.../1010/FEATURES

& \ report on Alan Lee's signing sesh in Oxford

http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headl...lkien_book.php

[Maédhros]

- As expected, the text is mostly the same as the ‘Narn’ found in UT. Moreover, it appears that CT restricted himself to ‘Narn-tradition’ texts (i.e. texts dating from and associated with Tolkien’s 1950s work on the Turin saga) in compiling the narrative. There is nothing (as far as I could tell) interpolated from independent versions of the story nor from independent essays or notes. This is quite consistent with, and good in light of, CT’s apparent goal of making CoH primarily a coherent piece of literature.

That is a real shame.

- There are, however, a few short passages here and there that do not appear in UT nor in the ’77 Silmarillion, nor HoMe, yet which are apparently from the body of ‘Narn’ texts. One of these, occuring in the first chapter, tells in very general terms that Hurin and Huor from time to time accompanied the men of Brethil in raids against the Orcs. This is notable in that it passes entirely over the Dagor Bragollach, which in other texts provides the motive for their being involved in fighting against the Orcs. But this is probably just an omission (no doubt on JRRT’s part rather than CT’s) for the sake of keeping the narrative’s focus from wandering.

I was wondering Aiwendil, that since it may take me months to have my own copy to read, if you had found new details about the Nirnaeth, that were not included in previous versions of the story.
The omision of the last versiongenealogy of Orodreth's genealogy is a real shame to me. Why don't make it right?

It seems to me that with the little additions that are not found in any previous texts that have been added to the CoH, we would need to put them in our version.

[davem]

More

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/leisure/b...iced_18_99.php

[littlemanpoet]

This is great:

Originally Posted by Marcel Bülles

And, of course, there is the canon-supported, widely-accepted modern literary critic’s, only for Middle-earth developped way of writing: Tolkienbashing and it’s the Times on Sunday who wins the prize for writing the first bash.

I still haven't got the book; reading the linked reviews is a fun start though. I'll be getting it, rest assured.

[davem]

And more still

http://www.business-standard.com/com...Left=0&chkFlg=

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

That is a real shame.

I don’t know. On the one hand, there are certainly sections of the story for which other sources provide a more substantial narrative (e.g. everything from the rescue of Turin to his coming to Nargothrond is told much more fully in the alliterative ‘Turin’). But Tolkien did apparently intend the ‘Narn’ to stand on its own as a complete and self-contained narrative. Also, by restricting himself to these texts, CT ensured the stylistic uniformity of the final product.

I was wondering Aiwendil, that since it may take me months to have my own copy to read, if you had found new details about the Nirnaeth, that were not included in previous versions of the story.

Again, I haven’t bought the book yet (twenty-six dollars for a story I already own is a bit steep, methinks, though I do intend to get it eventually); my comments are based on about a fifteen minute flip through the pages. I did happen to notice that Hurin’s slaying of the trolls is still there, presumably confirming that this detail comes from the ‘Narn’ version of the battle.

The omision of the last versiongenealogy of Orodreth's genealogy is a real shame to me. Why don't make it right?

I agree about this. It seems that CT thinks the latest genealogy is an ‘unworkable’ projected change, but I entirely fail to see why.

It seems to me that with the little additions that are not found in any previous texts that have been added to the CoH, we would need to put them in our version.

Agreed. But that’s a matter for another forum . . .

[Sir Kohran]

SPOILERS

I just finished reading the whole thing. I hadn't read The Silmarillion, so the ending took me by surprise...it was very tragic and bitter, about as far away from Mr Bilbo's happy quest as you can get. I'm actually feeling sad...this is probably the first time a book has moved me this much. The power of Tolkien...

Now I just need to go off and cry somewhere

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I'm actually feeling sad...this is probably the first time a book has moved me this much. The power of Tolkien...

The power of the old legends told by people who live in countries where the sun doesn't rise in the winter for a couple of months...

[davem]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/oxford/content/...19/hurin.shtml
(link just below Tolkien pic)

And a very good review of CoH by John Garth (Tolkien & the Great War) in today's Sunday Telegraph - not on line as yet, but I'll keep an eye on the site...

[davem]

Here's a transcript of the Newsnight interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1901898.htm

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I agree about this. It seems that CT thinks the latest genealogy is an ‘unworkable’ projected change, but I entirely fail to see why.

It's not a question of workability or un-, but rather Christopher's decision to present JRRT's Narn as closely as possible. At the time the Narn was written (1951-56 or 57), Orodreth was still Felagund's brother: the revised genealogy arose later. Introducing elements from other, later writings was the sort of editorial 'meddling' CRT sought to avoid this time around.

Whether 'later' = 'correct' is a debate for another day.....

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I love this from The Washington Post:

"Its central protagonist, Túrin, is one of the most complex characters in all Middle Earth, a tormented, brooding anti-hero who bears hallmarks of a sword-wielding Heathcliff."

[davem]

Someone's jumping on the bandwagon

http://www.childrenofhurinmovie.com/

[lindil]

thanks for the review Aiwendil, I looked in vain for a detailed account of it's composite construction from the amazon reviews the day after it came out.

I did get a chance to peek at it yesterday but too much was going on in the local bookstore to dive in.

From Dave M's review sounds like I may want the deluxe [esp if a matching Silm may be on the way]

As for a movie? Please lord NO!

CJRT as I have heard holds the cards here, and I am grateful.
May the Silmarillion and all it's stories remain forever untainted by the artistic lic, of hollywood. Been there, done that...

Aiwendil mentioned the conservatism of CJRT's choices, but this was a foregone conclusion as the 2nd ed. Silm made only the most minor changes. If the Gil-Galad parentage question was going to be revisted, that would have been the time. He wants ths to be an intro to the Silm it seems [I did get to rtead a bit of the preface/fwd]. I am actually suprised he changed even when Anglachel was given!

Overall though it may well be the intro to the Silm that has been needed since 77 for so many folks who didn't or had a hard time 'getting it'.

I wonder if he will do the same for Beren and Luthien as my memory recalls that there was a fairly detailed 50's version of the first sections, that was not used for the Silm, and undoubtedly other more detailed texts were compressed as well, and it would have probably an even wider appeal. IN all of the interviews has there been any word for CJRT or Adam that there will be more Silm material to come???

And apologies if that was adressed already...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by lindil

Aiwendil mentioned the conservatism of CJRT's choices, but this was a foregone conclusion as the 2nd ed. Silm made only the most minor changes. If the Gil-Galad parentage question was going to be revisted, that would have been the time. He wants ths to be an intro to the Silm it seems [I did get to rtead a bit of the preface/fwd]. I am actually suprised he changed even when Anglachel was given!

This conservatism, you should understand, has little to do with a desire for consistency with the 1977 text, but reflects rather "an extreme scrupulosity" in his handling of his father's manuscripts. In other words, he was being conservative with regard to the Narn papers, and accordingly moved the giving of Anglachel because, since 1980, he has concluded he was mistaken in his interpretation of those texts. But with regard to Orodreth, and especially the inclusion of words and phrases he left out or altered in the Unfinished Tales edition, he has stuck to the original rather than presume to 'improve' it.

Overall though it may well be the intro to the Silm that has been needed since 77 for so many folks who didn't or had a hard time 'getting it'.

That's indeed what he had in mind- to present to Lord of the Rings readers some of the First Age legendarium in a form less "rebarbative" (his word) than the Silmarillion. Nonetheless, I predict that it will really appeal only to that subset of LR readers who enjoy the Appendices

I wonder if he will do the same for Beren and Luthien as my memory recalls that there was a fairly detailed 50's version of the first sections, that was not used for the Silm, and undoubtedly other more detailed texts were compressed as well, and it would have probably an even wider appeal. IN all of the interviews has there been any word for CJRT or Adam that there will be more Silm material to come???

That's all there is. I'm afraid that it's not the case that "other more detailed texts were compressed as well." Chapter 19 of the 1977 text represents the most detailed and expansive versions of the three that Tolkien wrote in 1937. The 1951 version remains unpublished, and I suppose it might see the light of day; but it's been described as nothing more than a paraphrase of the second Lay of Leithian (HME III), and at any rate only extends through B & L's meeting.

There is some non-Middle-earth writing which I would like to see (and have suggested as much to CRT): The Fall of Arthur, Aotrou and Itroun, and the Beowulf translation(s). But it appears that with the CoH the Silmarillion cupboard is about bare- after thirty years and 15 books.

[lindil]

quote: "This conservatism, you should understand, has little to do with a desire for consistency with the 1977 text, but reflects rather "an extreme scrupulosity" in his handling of his father's manuscripts."

hmm. His editing of the Ruin of Doriath was anything but conservative.

But other than that [which was arguably nec. if he wanted a full story] I must agree.

But I was still a little disappointed he did not clean up his own version of canon at least a bit more.
-------
thanks for the heads up re: other publishing hopes and lack thereof.

What I am really hoping for is an Annotated Silm, that sidebars and/or includes all the choice bits of HoME w/ out trying to smoothout inconsistencies, but rather puts all the choice bits in next to where the occur [or where left out of the Silm] A sort of Annotated Hobbit but replacing the Commentary and pics from other editions, w/ JRRTs own Silm writings. I think this is perhaps the last thing needing to be done to give JRRT's full work to the public in a manner most befitting the writings.
Thus:
*the new Turin could replace the old [which could be sidebarred [[sp?]] w/ the 77/99 Turin.

*The poetry where it exists and is worth it, also could be along side.

*The Shibboleth could be added alongside the flight of the Noldor where relevant, etc

*The more fascinating Lost Tale amplifications which were never revisited [The Fall of Gondolin for instance] could be boxed and inserted or sidbarred, or included in a special font...

*And the tale of years/Annals could be running along the bottom as well.

*But I think most importantly, alot of real gems: Osanwe-Kenta, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, the Athrabeth etc, could be appendicized in greater Silm, and get the readership they deserve, not tucked away exclusively in 12 volume series' and even more obscure Elvish Lang journals.

Or something along those lines. As long as canon is NOT an issue then the possibilities and the editing [other than layout] could be relatively simple.

And it could get the deluxe box set treatment [3 vol's?] that the Silmarillion so richly deserved, but never got.

Heck, he could even put the Translations from the Elvish title to use.

Anyway, maybe that idea will float in the right direction...

----------
Until then at least our 'New Silmarillion' forum folks have one more text much closer to 'fulness' than a year ago, and we have some new bits as well.

Mr. Underhill: any new thoughts on trolls in the 1st age?

And a belated welcome to the Downs William!

[Aiwendil]

William Cloud Hickli wrote:

It's not a question of workability or un-, but rather Christopher's decision to present JRRT's Narn as closely as possible. At the time the Narn was written (1951-56 or 57), Orodreth was still Felagund's brother: the revised genealogy arose later. Introducing elements from other, later writings was the sort of editorial 'meddling' CRT sought to avoid this time around.

Good point. And you're right that the fact that he moved the gift of Anglachel indicates that consistency with the '77 was not his supreme principle.

Lindil wrote:

Overall though it may well be the intro to the Silm that has been needed since 77 for so many folks who didn't or had a hard time 'getting it'.

Indeed, it seems to me that the virtue of this publication is that many readers will be exposed to the marvellous Turin saga who otherwise would not have been.

As for a movie? Please lord NO!

You know, I've always thought that the 'Narn' could make a truly incredible movie; actually it strikes me as being more fit for cinematic adaptation than is LotR. However, I'm quite certain that if such a film were made today in Hollywood it would be a complete disaster. But bring, say, Ingmar Bergman back to life and put it in his hands - now that would be great cinema.

Edit: Hang on, Ingmar Bergman's still alive!? Shows what I know . . .

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I was needlessly obscure. What I was trying to say was that CRT's scrupulosity has developed over the years, so that he now regards some of what he did thirty years ago as having "overstepped the editorial function." Therefore he has given us the Narn as written (or as nearly so as possible), without introducing alterations from other sources even when they are later or more 'correct.'

I disagree that this 300-page book should replace Chapter 19 of the 1977 text. The Silmarillion was always supposed to be an epitome, a compressed and summarised account: as CRT points out in the Appendix, his father's intention was to write 'Silmarillion versions' of the Great Tales as abridgments of the 'long versions' (whenever he got around to writing those); he started the ball rolling when he wrote the later entries of the Grey Annals as compressions of the later part of the Narn (the first bit written).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But bring, say, Ingmar Bergman back to life and put it in his hands - now that would be great cinema.

Yes!! In black and white. With Max von Sydow as Turin. And of course everybody dies.

Puts me in mind now also of Peter Brooks' King Lear, with Paul Scofield. Also B&W, in a stark snowscape- and, again, Lear ends with everybody's corpses strewn around.

[lindil]

Willaim, I was not suggesting a replacement in THE Silmarillion, but suggesting what could be added to an "Annotated" Silm. The whole SIlm would be included...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have the deluxe which is slipcased - covered with the same scabious blue cloth as the half bindings of the book. It has the dragon helm and the JRRT monogram embossed in gold. Teh slipcover of the ordinary versionis the frontispiece.

I don't know if the ordo has the same illustrations - various colour landscapes and the pencil drawings in the text . The deluxe is a larger format and has high grade paper as well as a more substantial binding. It is a "serious" book - I mean I received a hard copy of UT in the same post and while it is nice it is not in the same league. I am reading Hurin with tissue paper around the cover to prevent finger marks even .. and it certainly won't be read with a glass of wine/cup of tea/ crumpet itn the other mitt....

I've kept the plastic wrapping around the slipcase on mine for now while it's not 'put away' on the bookshelves, lest something nasty get spilled on it!

I'm very pleased with the quality of the book itself as an object - the paper is very sturdy indeed and stands up well to reading, turning pages etc. It's also not too heavy to handle easily, something that always puts me off if a book is too cumbersome to say read in a reclined position! I ended up putting my hardback of Jonathan Strange away and ony look at the paperback now because it was too heavy for me to hold and read.

Anyway, it's also got a nice look - a nice retro grey and air force blue binding and looks marvellous next to the matching deluxe Hobbit and LotR. Don't know what colour they will use if they do one of the Sil though - they've already used green, blue and a dull red for these editions.

[Thinlómien]

I've read most of the book and I must say I love it. I'm so fascinated by some character portrayals (Andróg is not the idiot we used to see, but an intriguing character both good and bad, Mîm's more sympathic, Aerin has an edge and Brandir and Gwindor are even more tragic...) and by some passages I've never read before. That book is a little treasure.

[Lalaith]

I've gone back to UT and the Sil to see what is new and what is not, and in fact there's not as much original stuff as I'd first thought, it's been a while since I read the UT version.
One sentence, which was in a UT footnote, is sadly missing from CoH.
"Always he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith".

Shame, because it is such a universal truth.

[davem]

'nother one

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/ID24Aa01.html

Very good too

[Bêthberry]

I think at this point I will stop reading the reviews while I wait to acquire the book and read it. I will even forego reading davem's thread "Turin the Hopeless" so I can read the book as much as possible (having already read UT and The Silm) "without prejudice".

[Lalaith]

That review really is excellent, isn't it? A lot of stuff relevant to your Turin thread, Davem.



See you later, I hope, Bethberry....

[Lalwendë]

I don't know if we had this one yet? It has some things about Ragnarok in it that I'm thinking about... I found it on a news feed through work so it's a right big quote:

Copyright 2007 Times Newspapers Limited All Rights Reserved Sunday Times (London) April 8, 2007, Sunday

SECTION: FEATURES; Culture; Pg. 6 LENGTH: 878 words HEADLINE: The stuff of legend BYLINE: Robbie Hudson

Tolkien's tales are tangled in ancient Nordic myths, says Robbie Hudson

The drama of The Lord of the Rings is hobbit-sized compared with the grandeur of the older tales Tolkien worked on all his life, and which his son, Christopher, has devoted more than 30 years to cataloguing and collating. On the one hand, Tolkien was always the bright-eyed child who thought the branch-cutting army of Shakespeare's Dunsinane was a con trick, and "wanted to devise a setting by which the trees might really march to war". On the other hand, he was the Oxford professor of Anglo-Saxon frustrated that England didn't have a proper mythical past and determined to make up the difference himself. The Children of Hurin is but one story from this epic "legendarium", as Tolkien called it.

Other folklorists

The Finns still hold a holiday to celebrate Elias Lonnrot's Kalevala epic, collected in the 1830s, while Jacob Grimm tried to recover German roots through a dictionary, a grammar, a mythology and, of course, fairy tales. William Morris wrote an English version of the Volsunga saga, a 13th-century Icelandic prose version of a story thought to be based on happenings in central Europe in the fifth century. Featuring Sigurd the hero and Fafnir the dragon, it was condensed by Andrew Lang in his Red Fairy Tale Book, which inspired Tolkien as a child. In Wagner's Ring Cycle, Sigurd and Fafnir became Siegfried and Fafner. Although Tolkien disclaimed similarities with Wagner ("Both rings are round, and there the resemblance ceases"), there are strong links between Sigurd's story and The Children of Hurin.

The Inklings

The Inklings were a group of scholarly friends, CS Lewis among them, who gave Tolkien his first excited audience. Lewis, who gave The Hobbit rave reviews, was, according to his biographer, AN Wilson, the "first Tolkien addict".

The Silmarillion

Published in 1977, this extraordinary book ("mad in the best sense," wrote The New York Times) is the simplest version of Tolkien's overall vision and contains the first published account of Hurin and his children. Written in a solemn, insistent, King James cadence, it moves from famously dull creation myth to the relentless and tragic story of how Morgoth, Tolkien's Lucifer figure, brings evil into the world; how elves and men battle him vainly; and how, eventually, the gods join them, conquer Morgoth and shut him outside the Door of Night for ever. Sauron, the Dark Lord of The Lord of the Rings, was Morgoth's lieutenant. The human warrior Hurin will not yield to Morgoth, so his children are cursed. Hurin's son, Turin, is a constant thorn in Morgoth's side, but the curse follows Turin as he kills friends, unknowingly marries his sister and finally commits suicide.

Christopher Tolkien and the legendarium

Tolkien worked on these stories all his life, leaving behind a corpus of notes and different versions. His son, Christopher, also an Oxford don, has dealt with these like a traditional scholar, evaluating competing versions of different legends. The Silmarillion was followed, questioned and clarified by Unfinished Tales (1980) and the 12-volume History of Middle-earth (1983-96). These are full of scraps, notes and hints of what Tolkien actually intended to say about Hurin's family. Indeed, Christopher's son, Adam, recently called The Children of Hurin "the completed puzzle, in a sense".

What's missing from The Silmarillion?

Don't read this if you're afraid of spoilers: some accounts say Tolkien intended to end with a final battle inspired by the Norse Ragnarok. Morgoth will escape back into the world in the last strand of time, where he will be slain by a returning Turin. It would be a more upbeat ending, certainly.

Who is Turin based on?

Tolkien said that Turin's story was "an attempt to reorganise the tale of Kullervo the hapless into a form of my own". Kullervo appears in the Finnish Kalevala. Both characters were born after their fathers were lost in battle (though Hurin, Turin's father, was imprisoned rather than killed). Both commit accidental incest; and, in both cases, the sister throws herself into a river. Both Kullervo and Turin die by falling on their sentient black swords, both of which speak, and agree to drink their masters' blood. There are other sources, too: the battles of Turin and Glaurung the dragon echo Beowulf, but they are closer to the Norse saga of Sigurd and Fafnir. Sigurd digs a trench and stabs Fafnir from beneath; Turin hides in a gorge and does the same. Both are abandoned by their fearful companions, Regin and Dorlas respectively.

Is it a tragedy?

Turin has a terrible time, but to be a classically tragic figure, one has to be responsible for one's own misfortune. While Feanor, The Silmarillion's central figure, brings tragedy on the elves by swearing a terrible and unbreakable oath, Turin can be seen as the unfortunate victim of Morgoth's curse. On the other hand, like Feanor, he consistently exhibits the central tragic flaw of hubris. Tolkien's view may be guessed by his analysis of the word ofermod in the Old English poem The Battle of Maldon. Byrhtnoth of Essex exhibited ofermod, or "excessive spirit", which courted and led to disaster in the fight against the Vikings. In Danish, as Tolkien the linguist well knew, overmod means "hubris".

[Mithalwen]

I know it it pointless... but I am going to write and complain about the Craig Brown review inteh Mail on Sunday. I can cope well with people not liking Tolkien but I object to someone claiming to be "Critic of the Year" sneering at a book he clearly hasn't read more than a couple of pages of and can't be arsed to provide correct information about...

Teh Sunday Telegraph one was lovely though

[davem]

annuver one

http://www.business-standard.com/opi...o=282227&tab=r

[Lalaith]

the Craig Brown review inteh Mail on Sunday

Link?

Oh and Mith, I do sympathise with the urge to write a letter to the MoS, or the Daily Mail.
I want to write letters every time I go near the wretched rag. Often in my own blood. Or better still, Richard Littlejohn's. So I tend to just avoid it altogether.

[davem]

From the Guardian:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/digested...rc=rss&feed=10

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Link?

Oh and Mith, I do sympathise with the urge to write a letter to the MoS, or the Daily Mail.
I want to write letters every time I go near the wretched rag. Often in my own blood. Or better still, Richard Littlejohn's. So I tend to just avoid it altogether.

Err I *blushes* I have the hard copy only ... my dad buys it..... personally I usually want to strangle Suzanne Moore....

[littlemanpoet]

I feel like a thief. I stopped by the bookstore after work today and grasped the last one on the shelf. Local bookstore price: $28. Marked 20% off. What a steal! The pictures are gorgeous, of course. Including the ones that head each chapter. I'm a little disappointed in the chapter titles; then again, I can't imagine a "Flotsam and Jetsam" in this dark tome. I wish I wasn't so busy the next few days!

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I feel like a thief. I stopped by the bookstore after work today and grasped the last one on the shelf. Local bookstore price: $28. Marked 20% off. What a steal! The pictures are gorgeous, of course. Including the ones that head each chapter. I'm a little disappointed in the chapter titles; then again, I can't imagine a "Flotsam and Jetsam" in this dark tome. I wish I wasn't so busy the next few days!

One thing that really struck me about the chapter titles was that there were several titles reading: 'The Death Of (insert name here)'. Whilst it does give away the story, I think it gives the overall story a sense of desperation - the regular deaths of various characters, each one marked in a title, emphasizing the ultimately depressing ending.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Link?

Oh and Mith, I do sympathise with the urge to write a letter to the MoS, or the Daily Mail.
I want to write letters every time I go near the wretched rag. Often in my own blood. Or better still, Richard Littlejohn's. So I tend to just avoid it altogether.

It's not worth bothering penning anything to the Daily Heil (as I have found out it is also known as - due to a history of supporting Mosley and Hitler right up to 1939! ). Three of us intrepid Brits all wrote something in response to some reactionary polemic by Littlejohn about St George's Day and they didn't bother posting up our comments - the thought police had us sadly

I should still like to read that appalling review though.