Tidbits of Curiosity

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?

Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him.

Fans - well, it's hard not to love a tragic hero. We are fascinated by them.

COH characters - Turin isn't just rude and impatient. He is also honourable, passionate, fair, strong, dependable. He is a good person, and he tries to do good. He stands up for what he believes in. He does amazing things, he has endured many challenges that few other people could endure. He inspires others with his strength and his vision. So, whether the characters like him or not, it's hard for them not to respect him.

[Urwen]

Do you think that some of the other characters will support him during the Final Battle?

He is the one who will bring down Morgoth, after all. But Morgoth is this huge, humongous being, with a hammer that weighs at least a ton. Someone who can kill a person with one stomp of his humongous feet.

Bottom line is, he'll need help. Some armor, for instance, and some protective enchantments.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think that some of the other characters will support him during the Final Battle?

Why wouldn't they? Except for whatever metaphysical limitations may occur, I don't think Turin would stand alone.

As for the limitations, I'm really not sure how and in what form Turin will return to this world to defeat Morgoth. Did his fea never leave the world, never accepted the Gift, waiting for the ultimate conclusion and closure of his story? Did it come back from beyond the Circles of the World? Where did his body come from? Are others able to come back the same way or is it just him? I don't know/remember very much about the Final Battle, so it's hard to answer.

ETA: But I don't think the reason for Turin's victory will be his prowess in combat, or his weapons and armour. I think all these things will only be an external manifestation of the battle of wills. Turin, finally able to direct all of the bitterness accumulated over his life straight at the cause of his misery, will not hold anything back, and I think Morgoth would be a little overwhelmed by the amount of emotional force directed at him. Turin is a very passionate character who tends to internalize his emotions like a sponge, and in COH the overflow always spills out negatively. I think in the Battle they get to be squeezed out of the sponge and directed at Morgoth, and after that fight Turin would find peace.

[Urwen]

Some theorize that he and his family would return from beyond the Circles of the World in order to find Morgoth. My beliefs that they would take part in the Second Song afterwards, and would thus be returned to life, to be the Guardians of Arda Healed, and Protectors of all that lives there.

They are the perfect candidates for such a role, and given the amount of suffering they have endured because of Morgoth, it would be satisfying to see them have another shot at life they deserve.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

Ah, is this in the Strong Female Characters thing? Bear in mind that falls under the Not-So-Crackpot Theories section: ie, unlike the Deep Places list (which tries to be evidence-based and explicitly state when something is a stretch), it's allowed to be a bit on the biased and weird side. (That one comes right above the one that claims, straightfaced, that Nienor exists because Tolkien wanted people to paint nudes. O.o)

Erendis is messed up. So is Aldarion. He doesn't care about her much at all, and she is insanely jealous of him. Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about. Take a look at how badly she messed up her daughter - and, by extension and example, all three of the later Ruling Queens - to show this.

(Of course, this still makes her a strong character...)

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about.

So....you think that even if the circumstances were different, both of them would still have done what they did?

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim.

hS

Me neither.

[Urwen]

P.S: Did you see my latest parodies?

[Urwen]

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think Nienor would want to be saved, and as such I don't think she was. Tar-Miriel however... *puts on fanfic glasses*

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS

I like your analysis and your idea. Turin and Tar-Miriel, Slayers of Morgoth, Saviors of the World.

That one must be written out.

[Urwen]

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

And it is writ

[Urwen]

Lo, I got inspired by your blog to make my own

[Urwen]

Another song that fits with Golodhrim and Maeglin

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

Except that they're all victims.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Except that they're all victims.

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS

If that is true, then the House of Hurin is on top of that least, for none of them had any way to avoid their fate; because, as you said, Morgoth holds power over all of Arda, and there is no escape from it. Only one member of that House of Hurin did escape his power: the youngest one.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If that is true, then the House of Hurin is on top of that least, for none of them had any way to avoid their fate; because, as you said, Morgoth holds power over all of Arda, and there is no escape from it. Only one member of that House of Hurin did escape his power: the youngest one.

All of them escaped it, and in the same way: by dying.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

All of them escaped it, and in the same way: by dying.

But not before their lives were thoroughly ruined by an evil God.

[Urwen]

I just read a story, and it got me thinking: how much of the history we read is actually the truth, and how much is the case of 'history is written by the winners'? Were Maeglin and other demonized people (Beruthiel, Ulfang and co. etc.) truly evil, or were they presented as such by those who wrote their history?

(I left Pharazon out because I hate him)

[Pervinca Took]

Beruthiel's husband sounded like a nasty piece of work.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I just read a story, and it got me thinking: how much of the history we read is actually the truth, and how much is the case of 'history is written by the winners'? Were Maeglin and other demonized people (Beruthiel, Ulfang and co. etc.) truly evil, or were they presented as such by those who wrote their history?

(I left Pharazon out because I hate him)

I think it depends on what story of how the story got to us you are following.

If you go by the "Tolkien translated the Red Book" hypothesis, then yes, history is written by the winners (or rather, it's written by the hobbits, who have heard the versions of the winners).

But if you take it as the story in its true version (though still with individual characters and POVs having their own perceptions and biases, where applicable), which was in some retelling of it used as the basis for the Red Book translations, then it's the true story.

I prefer to think of it as the real deal. The issue with the first case scenario is if you start questioning the validity of the history, you gotta question all of it. To give an example with your favourites, you might say that Maeglin was painted as less sympathetic than he really was, but then you also have to accept that Tar-Miriel might have been less goody-good than she was portrayed, and maybe Hurin didn't actually stand up to Morgoth so steadfastly (cause who was there to witness it?), or maybe Nienor knew full well she was marrying her brother and did it anyways, but the people of Brethil would rather not admit to the fact that their favourite was a perv and covered up for her. If you start, where do you stop? Yes, it's possible, but I would rather not go that way. I would rather leave the beauty of the story intact the way it is than start doubting its bits and pieces.

Saying that, it doesn't mean the story itself doesn't have its own biases, as I said before. When we see into a character's POV, we know them better and we relate to them better, so sympathy is partially created that way regardless of what that character is or does. By sharing the thoughts and motives of one character but not the other in an exchange, the story automatically biases us towards the one we know better. You get this sometimes with Maeglin, who is seen in the context of other stories and only chimes in with an arrogant comment. So while the story is true, it might still not be perfectly well-rounded.


How's that for the resolution of your debate? Thoughts?

[Urwen]

I won't reply to that, because it seems like you want this thread to end.

[Urwen]

In defense of my favorites, there is a phrase known as 'choosing the lesser of two evils', which, as I believe applies to Tar-Miriel. I read the fanfiction where she and Pharazon did what they did in order to prevent the possibility of civil war, and I agree with that headcanon.

Beruthiel was abused by her husband, which is also someone else's headcanon that I accept. In fact, it was that headcanon which got me thinking about this stuff in the first place.

And Maeglin was tortured by the enemy and broke down, plain and simple. Same old, same old, maybe, but there was nothing insidious at work there. No unhealthy obsessions, no throwing children into furnaces. Alternatively, he might have been possessed by Melkor or Sauron and forced to do these things against his own will (another headcanon I agree with)

[Huinesoron]

Ooh, are we doing transmission theory? I love transmission theory!

Let's assume that the entire Middle-earth corpus is derived from the Red Book: that the First Age material comes entirely from Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish, and that the Second Age stuff is probably from Gondor (added either by Merry and Pippin, or by the Gondorians to the Thain's Book). The Translations are said to be from Rivendell's records, which presumably were previously records in Lindon, but how did they get into there?

-Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and pre-Elvish Quenta: Probably written in Lindon or Balar. Actual Valinoran writings are unlikely; those could have been brought over by Houses Fingolfin or Finarfin, but none of the refugees from various Beleriandic collapses had the opportunity to take their books with them to the Havens. The most religious city in Beleriand was Gondolin (which actually had a Place of the Gods), so probably recounted to scribes by surviving Valinorean Gondolindrim. Ultimately, they have to be from a Valinorian Elda, who was taught them by the Valar.

-Pre-Return Middle-earth: Most likely dictated by Cirdan, who was there for all of it. The very early Awakening of the Elves story is specifically said to be a children's story.

-The Eldar in Valinor, including the Fall of the Noldor: The Kinslaying being pretty unpleasant, I doubt this was written down early, but the accounts have the ring of authenticity - they were clearly based on first-hand accounts by House Feanor. My guess is that Galadriel was behind most of it (hence the odd little anecdote about Feanor and her hair), while either Maglor (to Elrond) or Celebrimbor (to Galadriel) added a Feanorean perspective. It would have been written in the Second Age, partly as an explanation for why the Valar were so disgruntled at the remaining Noldor. It's also said to be partly based on Rumil's writing in the Annals of Aman, which would probably have been a gift to Cirdan.

-General Beleriandic accounts: clearly compiled in the Havens/Balar, as the only place where the stories of Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Doriath would be generally known. Pengolod of Gondolin probably had a heavy hand in them: he wrote the Annals of Beleriand and edited the Annals of Aman, so we can imagine him finding the latter Annals on Balar and being inspired to write his own.

-Beren and Luthien: derives from the Lay of Leithian, by an unknown poet (I've hypothesised that it was Tinfang Gelion). He must have been directly told the story by Beren and Luthien themselves, after their Return (since Luthien's appeal to Mandos is part of the story), which places him firmly in Ossiriand. The poem would have travelled to Doriath (of course), but might not have been written down: the purpose of epic poems was to keep the stories alive in memory. I'm imagining Dior singing it to Elwing, and Elwing singing it to Elrond...

-The Children of Hurin: from the poet Dirhaval of the House of Hador, who wrote the Narn. But where did he get his information? Some of it was from the Doriathrim, and some no doubt from surviving Nargothrondrim, but so much of Turin's story was never known to them. The details of his time with the outlaws, the death of Beleg, his time in Brethil and his death: the best source for these is Brethil itself. Did Hurin learn the full tale when he passed through? I can see him telling his story to Melian before leaving to go jump off a cliff.

-The Fall of Gondolin: Idril. The view the story takes of Turgon could only come from his daughter; the surviving Lords of the City wouldn't be so critical. Tuor probably made some contributions (like the long, rambling bit before he gets to the city), but I think the meat of the story is Idril's: would Tuor really have given his wife all the credit? If not told to Earendil, it was probably at least told for his benefit - so yes, Maeglin really did try to throw him off a cliff and/or stab him, because the kid actually remembered that part. The general creepiness of Unc'a Lomion, however, is exaggerated by hindsight.

-The War of Wrath: written, or rather not written, by the Elves (possibly even Elrond himself). They didn't participate, which is why there's almost nothing recorded. No doubt there was a Numenorean account with loads of details, but it was lost in the Downfall.

-Numenor: we're told outright that Akallabeth was written by Elendil, which means it was written to justify his own rule. The usurpation of the Line of Kings, the emphasis on Ruling Queens (which puts Silmarien and the Andunie line in a very good light), and indeed, the assertion that the whole island is irrevocably lost: they're all brought up to make it clear that King Elendil of Gondor-and-Arnor is the only way forward. As for The Mariner's Wife... well, it's too complex a story to have been remembered, and I doubt Elendil's refugees brought their libraries with them. That means it was already in Middle-earth - which means it was either from the Belfalas Faithful... or from the Black Numenoreans of Umbar. ^_^ I'll leave it to you to decide whether the moral of the story is 'be more like elves' or 'elves suck'.

Ultimately, yeah: there's a lot of opportunity for biased narration. Not around the Fall of Gondolin, though: you'd have to cast Earendil as a liar for that to work, and I think the Valar would have something to say. But Hurin and Elendil are prime candidates for bending the truth.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

-The Fall of Gondolin: Idril. The view the story takes of Turgon could only come from his daughter; the surviving Lords of the City wouldn't be so critical. Tuor probably made some contributions (like the long, rambling bit before he gets to the city), but I think the meat of the story is Idril's: would Tuor really have given his wife all the credit? If not told to Earendil, it was probably at least told for his benefit - so yes, Maeglin really did try to throw him off a cliff and/or stab him, because the kid actually remembered that part. The general creepiness of Unc'a Lomion, however, is exaggerated by hindsight.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ultimately, yeah: there's a lot of opportunity for biased narration. Not around the Fall of Gondolin, though: you'd have to cast Earendil as a liar for that to work, and I think the Valar would have something to say. But Hurin and Elendil are prime candidates for bending the truth.

Or I can take a third option and say that Meglin was possessed, and hence the actions others saw him do weren't done by him, but Melkor/Sauron controlling his body. He, of course, wrestled the control from them near the end in order to save Earendil, and goad Tuor into slaying him as a form of atonement.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Or I can take a third option and say that Meglin was possessed, and hence the actions others saw him do weren't done by him, but Melkor/Sauron controlling his body. He, of course, wrestled the control from them near the end in order to save Earendil, and goad Tuor into slaying him as a form of atonement.

Is that even a thing in Arda? I can think of multiple instances of people being kiiind of driven to things by evil power (Boromir and Frodo, for example), but it's clear that they're still responsible for their actions. And I can think of multiple 'evil impersonates people' instances - Eilinel and Amlach, say - but that's not possession either.

I can't think of any examples of an evil Power straight-up possessing someone; I might just be being tired, though?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, what if they did, just in this one case? After all, Morgoth was genuinely afraid that Earendil would contribute to his downfall (which he did). And right there was someone whose own desires just so happened to align with Morgoth's, making it even easier to possess him.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Is that even a thing in Arda? I can think of multiple instances of people being kiiind of driven to things by evil power (Boromir and Frodo, for example), but it's clear that they're still responsible for their actions. And I can think of multiple 'evil impersonates people' instances - Eilinel and Amlach, say - but that's not possession either.

I can't think of any examples of an evil Power straight-up possessing someone; I might just be being tired, though?

hS

I don't believe Frodo was responsible for his actions at the very end, when the Ring was at its point of maximum power. 'Impossible, I should say, for anyone to resist, especially after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted' - JRRT.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I don't believe Frodo was responsible for his actions at the very end, when the Ring was at its point of maximum power. 'Impossible, I should say, for anyone to resist, especially after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted' - JRRT.

Fair; but resist what? I've always read that as Frodo succumbing to temptation, not compulsion. I suppose you could see that as a form of possession - but I don't think arguing 'it wasn't Maeglin's fault, Morgoth just gave him an overwhelming temptation (to murder his cousin's son and kidnap her)' is going to win any points in Urwen's eyes...

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I won't reply to that, because it seems like you want this thread to end.

People don't usually end threads by asking for thoughts, but you read what you want to read.

What do you want, Urwen? You're upset when people don't post for a while, you're upset when people post. You quote your own questions to bump them up to get more responses, but out of the blue you decide to ignore some responses. Can we just have a voluntary discussion? Is that too much to ask?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Or I can take a third option and say that Meglin was possessed, and hence the actions others saw him do weren't done by him, but Melkor/Sauron controlling his body. He, of course, wrestled the control from them near the end in order to save Earendil, and goad Tuor into slaying him as a form of atonement.

But would that not imply Morgoth knew about what Earendil meant? Aside from the question of whether possession is possible, it has to have a purpose. If Morgoth had such control over Maeglin, why would he choose to deploy him this way? He could have sent him to kill Turgon, or to do more damage to the city defenses, or basically anything more useful than killing a 6-year-old.

The other thing is, if he really felt so horrible that he needed death as an atonement, why the need to goad Tuor? The cliff is right there. And goad Tuor how - by struggling to kill his wife and son? If we go into complete alternative histories of events (ie not just the motivations but the actions are different), what would be the goading action? Words?

I don't think this particular version makes it past Occam's razor, but maybe with some modifications it could work.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

People don't usually end threads by asking for thoughts, but you read what you want to read.

What do you want, Urwen? You're upset when people don't post for a while, you're upset when people post. You quote your own questions to bump them up to get more responses, but out of the blue you decide to ignore some responses. Can we just have a voluntary discussion? Is that too much to ask?

I want to cure my boredom, is all.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But would that not imply Morgoth knew about what Earendil meant? Aside from the question of whether possession is possible, it has to have a purpose. If Morgoth had such control over Maeglin, why would he choose to deploy him this way? He could have sent him to kill Turgon, or to do more damage to the city defenses, or basically anything more useful than killing a 6-year-old.

The other thing is, if he really felt so horrible that he needed death as an atonement, why the need to goad Tuor? The cliff is right there. And goad Tuor how - by struggling to kill his wife and son? If we go into complete alternative histories of events (ie not just the motivations but the actions are different), what would be the goading action? Words?

I don't think this particular version makes it past Occam's razor, but maybe with some modifications it could work.

Read my last post on the subject.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Fair; but resist what? I've always read that as Frodo succumbing to temptation, not compulsion. I suppose you could see that as a form of possession - but I don't think arguing 'it wasn't Maeglin's fault, Morgoth just gave him an overwhelming temptation (to murder his cousin's son and kidnap her)' is going to win any points in Urwen's eyes...

hS

Same thing, by then. Compelling him to yield to temptation. We're talking very, very extreme pressure.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Translations are said to be from Rivendell's records, which presumably were previously records in Lindon, but how did they get into there?

I've always gone with the head-canon that in the last days of Arthedain, the library of Fornost or copies thereof were sent to Rivendell for safekeeping. After all, Tolkien in his later period keeps telling us that the Silmarillion incorporated (garbled?) Mannish traditions- which wouldn't have been the case with material written in Lindon or by Elrond (or Glorfindel*)

Why would Bilbo have used these Arnorian materials ("from the Elvish" because written in Sindarin)? Probably because Elvish historiography was in a style relatively alien to mortal minds, written by and for conditional immortals with perfect recall. History written by Men would have been more comprehensible to a Hobbit.

___________________
*Another potential source for the Fall of Gondolin

[Urwen]

What are your opinions on Feanor?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Urwen

What are your opinions on Feanor?

A miniature version of Morgoth.

Not that Feanor became or even aspired to be a world-conquering Dark Lord, but rather that his fall was of the same flavor. Both were the greatest of their kind, possessed of the greatest gifts and unrivaled in their primacy- from which grew pride, and arrogance, and a belief that they were peers of an order greater than they (in Feanor's case, the Valar, in Morgoth's case, Eru Himself). As a side note, compare Varda's rejection of Melkor with Galadriel's rejection of Feanor.

[Urwen]

I believe that the one Melkor really loved was Nienna, not Varda. Just like the one Feanor really loved was Nerdanel, not Galadriel.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I believe that the one Melkor really loved was Nienna, not Varda. Just like the one Feanor really loved was Nerdanel, not Galadriel.

I don't think Melkor loved anybody, except possibly himself. He tended to go after bright things: there's a reference somewhere to him pursuing Varda, and the early mythos has him assaulting Arien; then of course there's the Silmarils themselves. But Nienna? She's really not his type.

Did she love him? She certainly goes to bat for him at least once, but that's in her role as Mercy. Given how unrepentant Melkor is, it's hard to see how the Weeper could fall for him.

Feanor, like Melkor, loved the Light - but like Melkor, he didn't just want to enjoy it, he wanted to possess it. The Silmarils were an impressive achievement, but built on the backs of Yavanna's, Varda's, and Aule's work (the Trees, Light, and Earth). Not acknowledging God's contributions when you're talking about a distant, unprovable figure is one thing; jealously guarding your treasure from gods who are right there is a whole nother thing.

It's almost tempting to see Feanor as just socially inept - his interest in Galadriel's hair comes across as a bumbling scientist, not a creep - but then you remember the whole 'if you won't help us we'll steal your stuff and murder you for stopping us' thing and feel less inclined to sympathy.

hS