Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

I'll wait for some more guesses/hints, then.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting on this page:


Born in the East,
I have seen many lands.
Silver-clad,
I announce great beginnings.

Announcer of trouble,
Herald of death.
I did as was foretold
But to bring only pain.

Originally Posted by Urwen

I'll wait for some more guesses/hints, then.

The subject of the riddle is mentioned throughout the text. You're on the right text, but in a wrong spot.

Here's your next hint: try to think of some great beginnings, and remember that the riddle subject is not a one-time mention but persists through a good chunk of the book.

[Urwen]

The Ring of.....Barahir?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The Ring of.....Barahir?

No... it's not present throughout LOTR, and it spans multiple texts... This is a Third Age answer, which is mentioned in various places in LOTR.

If it makes your guesswork easier, it's not a ring.

[Urwen]

Something mentioned in multiple places.....

I'd have to re-read all three books to find it, then......

[Huinesoron]

... it's not the Moon, is it? The first half of the riddle seems to point at Ithil in general, while the latter half could reflect the fallen status of Minas Ithil, with its death's-head-moon sigil.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Something mentioned in multiple places.....


I'd have to re-read all three books to find it, then......

Yes, it is mentioned in all three books, but it's not something you should have to go digging for. It's a fairly prominent thing. And the death is something everyone would know. It's not obscure at all.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

... it's not the Moon, is it? The first half of the riddle seems to point at Ithil in general, while the latter half could reflect the fallen status of Minas Ithil, with its death's-head-moon sigil.

hS

Interesting thought, but no. The riddle is all about a single subject.

[Urwen]

Mithril?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Mithril?

Now you're thinkin'.

The answer, however, is a specific thing, not a general material. I like your thinking though, you're getting nearer the right track.

[Urwen]

Mithril shirt?

Born in the East, - presumably, it was made by Dwarves East of the Great Sea
I have seen many lands.
Silver-clad, - silver is its color
I announce great beginnings.

Announcer of trouble, - in the hands of the enemy
Herald of death. - Gorbag's
I did as was foretold - protecting its wearer
But to bring only pain. - To the allied forces who were led to believe that its owner was dead.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Mithril shirt?

I wondered if you would ask that. No, it's not. But again it's somewhat similar to the item in question in the sense of how it's used in the story structure - an item that pops up now and again, that plays a part in crucial plot events. However, this item has a very specific story, and if you read just a couple passages you will be able to explain a lot of lines quite literally. There is also a pretty specific explanation for the "foretold" line.

[Urwen]

You said it's not mentioned in LoTR books, but it still existed in the Third Age. That means it must have been mentioned in Silm/UT/The Hobbit

Arkenstone?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You said it's not mentioned in LoTR books, but it still existed in the Third Age. That means it must have been mentioned in Silm/UT/The Hobbit

Arkenstone?

I told you the opposite! After telling you it's in the TA, I said it's in LOTR. Pay attention!

[Urwen]

Okay, but the first mention of it could be in any of three books, and in any of the chapters within....

Meaning I'll have to read every single chapter carefully to find it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, but the first mention of it could be in any of three books, and in any of the chapters within....

Meaning I'll have to read every single chapter carefully to find it.

As I told you before, it's mentioned in all 3 books, and it's major enough that you don't have to dig for it, it's something you would remember. Also, the death and the great beginning are very obvious specific events.

If you want the hints, read them carefully and use them wisely.


Even if you don't have a concrete idea of the object, you can guess at what some of the lines might mean, or what the relevant events are.

You were on the right track with the mithril coat in the sense that it has a similar literary (note: not functional!) role as the object in the story, and actually fits the riddle rather well. But the object is not related to the mithril coat in any way, so think of similar but unrelated stuff.

[Urwen]

Yeah, but as I told you, the first mention could be in any of the chapters, and I don't see how the hints could narrow it down more.

Unless it's a horn of some kind....?

[Urwen]

I found this

[The] Herald of Death

to find [One] Ring, to bring them [all]
[And] in the Darkness bind it

[One] Ring to rule them [all], [One] Ring'

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yeah, but as I told you, the first mention could be in any of the chapters, and I don't see how the hints could narrow it down more.

Unless it's a horn of some kind....?

Go on... What kind?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I found this

[The] Herald of Death

to find [One] Ring, to bring them [all]
[And] in the Darkness bind it

[One] Ring to rule them [all], [One] Ring'

The formatting got messed up in this post, but whatever it was supposed to be, it's not the Ring. Go back to your other idea.

[Urwen]

I think I figured it out.

Born in the East, - Made in Gondor
I have seen many lands. - During the journey
Silver-clad, - it was tipped with silver
I announce great beginnings. - It was first blown at the beginning of the journey

Announcer of trouble, - It was blown for the second time at Parth Galen
Herald of death. - and third time just before his death
I did as was foretold - if it be blown at need anywhere within the bounds of Gondor, as the realm was of old, its voice will not pass unheeded."
But to bring only pain. - Its remains were found by Denethor and Faramir and naturally seeing them was painful

[Galadriel55]

Hurray!

The answer is correct, Boromir's horn. Your explanation is also correct, though I had something slightly different in mind for a couple of lines. Here are the quotes to compare to:

Putting it to his lips he blew a blast, and the echoes leapt from rock to rock, and all that heard that voice in Rivendell sprang to their feet.

Slow should you be to wind that horn again, Boromir, said Elrond. 'until you stand once more on the borders of your land, and dire need is on you.'

`Maybe,' said Boromir. 'But always I have let my horn cry at setting forth, and though thereafter we may walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night.'

"I announce great beginnings".

`You remember well, and as one who has in truth seen him,' said Faramir. `Then maybe you can see it in your mind's eye: a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and written with ancient characters.

"Born in the East", "silver-clad".

it is said that if it be blown at need anywhere within the bounds of Gondor, as the realm was of old, its voice will not pass unheeded.

Indeed the quote that you picked out for "I did as was foretold".

‘Peace!’ said Gandalf. ‘The news of that grief should have been told first to the father.’

‘It has been guessed already,’ said Ingold; ‘for there have been strange portents here of late.

---

"But you speak of his death. You have had news of that ere we came?’

‘I have received this,’ said Denethor, and laying down his rod he lifted from his lap the thing that he had been gazing at. In each hand he held up one half of a great horn cloven through the middle: a wild-ox horn bound with silver.

‘That is the horn that Boromir always wore!’ cried Pippin.

"Herald of death".


And indeed, as you described, the horn that Boromir carried with him across Middle-earth was blown when the orcs attacked him, and was not unheeded, but instead of bringing him timely help only brought pain and worry to his people in Gondor.


Your turn.

[Urwen]

Okay. While I think of new one, could you please give other examples of things that 'speak'?

[Urwen]

This one has been on my mind for a while.

That was the day
We refused to stay
We went across the sea
To the lands where we'd be free

Our love dead
Our friendship torn
Yet we will go ahead
In the lands we were born

The rift between our people
Has to come to an end
So we could stand united against evil
Help me out, lend me a hand

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay. While I think of new one, could you please give other examples of things that 'speak'?

1. Gurthang is not the only literaly speaking inanimate object. There's also the troll purse in The Hobbit.

2. A metaphorically speaking object could be anything that represents a message (e.g. Red Arrow, Ring of Barahir), or makes a noise (take your pick of horns and trumpets, as well as drums, and Pippin's fool of a Took stone in Moria).

3. Speaking silently is also done through writing.

a) Objects with writing on them, most importantly books/texts but any engravings work (e.g. engraving on Balin's tomb, Book of Mazarbul)
b) Places can also fall under this category given the Moria inscription, "Speak friend and enter"
c) On the topic of places, Legolas can hear the stones of Hollin and Ents and Elves can hear the trees, without any writing necessary

4. Various non-humans who may or may not qualify as characters (the thinking fox in FOTR, the rooster who crows announcing the dawn at Minas Tirith, the various speaking birds - Eagles, Ravens, Thrush). While the Eagles are arguably characters in their own right I am not sure that definition extends to all of these animals simply because they are living creatures.

5. Dreams and visions. While some involve a specific person, others have only an image or a bodiless voice (e.g. Boromir&Faramir's initial vision, Mirror of Galadriel)


I'm sure that if I kept digging I would come up with more examples and possibly even more categories, but this is just off the top of my head. If you don't fixate on a literal meaning you can get a lot of possibilities for non-humanoid communication.


------

As for your riddle, the first half makes me think about the Noldor leaving with Feanor, while the last half reminds me of Elves and Dwarves.

How about one of the departed Noldor talking to Finarfin or Ingwe, who stayed?



Edit: you can also add bells to #2, e.g. the one trying to give the alarm that the Corsairs are coming. The list can grow and grow.
Edit 2: heck, the One Ring has an inscription! Yes, the list can definitely grow. Lots and lots of possibilities.

[Urwen]

Nope. You're on the right track, though. One of the lines has a literal meaning, as well as metaphorical one.

You're correct, the first two stanzas are about Feanor and Fingolfin, but the third one - which contains the speaker - is not.

[Nerwen]

Is it about Fingon rescuing Maedhros?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Is it about Fingon rescuing Maedhros?

Depends on whether or not you can fit that with the clues.

[Nerwen]

Well, the first verse, as G55 already guessed, refers to the Flight of the Noldor. For the rest- well, Fingon and Maedhros had been close before the unfortunate ship-burning affair, and it was Fingon's rescue of his cousin from Thangorodrim that helped heal the rift between their Houses- but he had to remove his hand in the process.

I think that satisfies all points?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, the first verse, as G55 already guessed, refers to the Flight of the Noldor. For the rest- well, Fingon and Maedhros had been close before the unfortunate ship-burning affair, and it was Fingon's rescue of his cousin from Thangorodrim that helped heal the rift between their Houses- but he had to remove his hand in the process.

I think that satisfies all points?

Yes, it does.

[Nerwen]

Okay, then here's the next one.

He warned you that I might betray
And quick were you to give away-
Or did you hear a voice within,
The future whisper of my kin?

[Urwen]

Maeglin?

[Nerwen]

No, not Maeglin.

It's an "every line means something" sort of riddle.

[Urwen]

So there is a traitor involved.


Known traitors: Maeglin, Bereg, Grima, Mim.

[Huinesoron]

I feel like this is another non-person riddle (which, come to think of it, almost all of the original Hobbit Riddle Game was, too - personifying the inanimate is pretty much a tradition), but unfortunately my mind keeps jumping to Star Wars: "Your thoughts betray you."

The repeated reference to voices is pushing me towards someone being betrayed by their own loud voice, but I... don't think Tolkien ever wrote that, so probably not.

hS

[Urwen]

Wait, could it be that Nerwen is being cheeky and the answer is, in fact, Anglachel?


He warned you that I might betray - It won't love a hand that it serves, nor will it stay with you long
And quick were you to give away- Yet I will wield it while I may
Or did you hear a voice within, - A speaking sword
The future whisper of my kin? - Anglachel and Anguirel

[Nerwen]

Urwen, you're on very much the right track- in fact perfectly correct in your interpretation of one of the lines- but the "speaker" is not Anglachel (or Anguirel). Anglachel is involved, however.

[Urwen]

Gurthang then?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Gurthang then?

If it were "Gurthang" I'd have accepted "Anglachel" as the answer.

Again, though, Anglachel/Gurthang is referenced, but is not the "speaker"- which is a little more obscure.

The whole thing is basically talking about a brief incident taking place at a specific point in time- so think about the meaning of future whisper. Or you could try working out who "he" and "you" might be.

[Urwen]

So Anglachel is referenced?

How about Nan Elmoth then? It betrayed Aredhel, and it's where Anglachel was made.