Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

Urwen, we read the responses from oldest to newest. It really doesn't matter who posted first. You don't have to have the last post on the thread to be seen.

I agree with you that he required help getting an army over the mountains, but I wonder more about where he thought Turgon could have been.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

i do agree about the Havens. Morgoth should have known where the Silmaril ended up, and it wouldn't have taken him much force to regain it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

I think Beleg would have gone with Turin all the way, to make sure Turin lived and that he stayed of the right moral path. But if Turin would stubbornly and irreversibly insist on following some morally questionable activity, it's possible Beleg would then leave him.

Basically I think Beleg would keep doing what he was doing before.

[Urwen]

Yes. I wish I had a friend like Beleg. That friendship was so good while it lasted.



By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

I read a synopsis, I am somewhat familiar with it. I would indeed like the story - just maybe not in that format.


Going back to the discussion of Turin and the Curse and the what-ifs, I came upon this interesting quote:

Originally Posted by COH

Nellas of Doriath never saw him again, and his shadow passed from her.

This makes it sound like Turin's "shadow" was an ever-present entity, and one that he would not have avoided had he stayed in Doriath. In a way it implies that whatever he does and whoever he associates with will be overcast by it. If he didn't ruin Finduilas, he would have ruined Nellas. If he didn't ruin Nargothrond, it would have been Doriath.

And I still stand by my earlier argument that whatever he does he will worse than fail by the nature of the Curse, but his problem is that he always rises high and so the stakes are always high and the disaster is big. He can't keep his head down, not meddle in the big affairs, keep to himself in a quiet way. No, he has to lead and lead big, as big as he can, so the crash is big too. Had he lead some quiet reclusive life on a farmstead or in the woods or something, his doom might have been proportionally small. And he tried for a while - with the outlaws, and later before his integration into Brethil - but he just can't be less than he is. He is a great man, a great fighter, a great leader, and he can't not be the best he can be.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

I would say: lots. Beleriand wasn't a particularly heavily-populated place. Turgon could have gone south - there's literally nothing south of Andram and east of the Nenning. He could have gone east - until the Sons of Feanor had to retreat, everything south of Estolad was pretty much empty. Heck, he could have stayed in Nevrast - apparently nobody ever bothered to go there until Tuor showed up! I really can't see any reason for Morgoth to assume that this lump of mountains, as opposed to any other (there's one above Ivrin, one at the joining of the Mountains of Mithrim and the Ered Wethrin, all the stuff around Rerir), simply had to be important.

My guess is that, until the Nirnaeth, Morgoth actually didn't think about Turgon at all. There might have been some murmuring about how the High King's son/brother (delete as temporally appropriate) vanished, but if some cowardly elf and his people chose to run off, what was that to the King of the World? It was only when Turgon suddenly appeared with a vast army that Morgoth had no idea was out there that he had to pay attention.

Morgoth knew that Turgon had appeared and retreated through the Pass of Sirion, which actually rules out a lot of places I've suggested. He probably picked up the name of Gondolin, and so knew that he was looking for the Hidden Rock (whatever that meant). And he knew that it could field at least ten thousand warriors. At that point... maybe he could have made the wild leap to 'hidden valley in the mountains'. But I still think 'somewhere off in the south' is more logical (like, say, the mouths of Sirion... )

hS

[Galadriel55]

The reason I ruled out a lot of places is 1) has to be where Morgoth's spies wouldn't see him - what keeps them from checking out all the other random lumps of rock? Nothing much, really; and 2) Turgon has to be close enough to be relevant. I mean sure, he could have even gone over the Ered Luin, but then he's less in the picture and less worrisome. He can't get into the play in time to change events; he has to be physically present on site to make a difference that would affect Morgoth.

(Again what no one realized is that Gondolin's importance was in making Earendil and not in their strength at all, but then no one has the same reader's knowledge as us, so they all assume that the way of defeating Morgoth must be through battle with him and through survival when battle is not possible).

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I read a synopsis, I am somewhat familiar with it. I would indeed like the story - just maybe not in that format.


Going back to the discussion of Turin and the Curse and the what-ifs, I came upon this interesting quote:



This makes it sound like Turin's "shadow" was an ever-present entity, and one that he would not have avoided had he stayed in Doriath. In a way it implies that whatever he does and whoever he associates with will be overcast by it. If he didn't ruin Finduilas, he would have ruined Nellas. If he didn't ruin Nargothrond, it would have been Doriath.

And I still stand by my earlier argument that whatever he does he will worse than fail by the nature of the Curse, but his problem is that he always rises high and so the stakes are always high and the disaster is big. He can't keep his head down, not meddle in the big affairs, keep to himself in a quiet way. No, he has to lead and lead big, as big as he can, so the crash is big too. Had he lead some quiet reclusive life on a farmstead or in the woods or something, his doom might have been proportionally small. And he tried for a while - with the outlaws, and later before his integration into Brethil - but he just can't be less than he is. He is a great man, a great fighter, a great leader, and he can't not be the best he can be.

I believe that, had he stayed in Doriath, and took Nellas as his wife, the curse would have been avoided.


Alternatively, since Beleriand is Morgoth's domain, if he and his family fled Beleriand, they would have been safe from the curse. And Morgoth would have been left with Hurin alone.


I wrote a what-if story about what would have happened if Beleg and Nellas tried to waylay the Curse.

[Urwen]

What would you say if there existed an Elf with Orcish heritage?

[Urwen]

This one gets it

This one too

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I believe that, had he stayed in Doriath, and took Nellas as his wife, the curse would have been avoided.

Does the quote not seem to you like the reason Nellas was spared the Curse was only because Turin left her, did not associate with her any longer?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Alternatively, since Beleriand is Morgoth's domain, if he and his family fled Beleriand, they would have been safe from the curse. And Morgoth would have been left with Hurin alone.

I thought Morgoth claimed his domain to be the whole of Arda. Arguably though his presence was mainly in Beleriand. I don't know if there's a way to show one way or another, but he did try to put the whole world under his power, and thinking thinking he has ousted the influence of the Valar in the world beyond Aman he might have claimed all of it for his own. Also, curious about when his interactions with Men started. I recall the coming of Men only vaguely, and I'm not sure if Morgoth's messengers could already have been at work before the Men came close to Beleriand. There are also scattered references to the Fathers of Men fleeing from some darkness, and to Morgoth poisoning the Gift so that Men would fear death; that must have happened somewhere early on.

But regardless, don't think that would have worked anyways given that Turin's life passion was to fight Morgoth, something that's hard to do when you're a million miles away.

Originally Posted by Urwen

I wrote a what-if story about what would have happened if Beleg and Nellas tried to waylay the Curse.

Does it involve both of them end up dying horribly?

(I'm kidding. Fanfic is where we can have our favourite characters stay alive and choose the righter option, even as we know it can't be this way.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

This one too

Yeah, this one gets it - except for the part that even weird teenagers aren't justified in committing felony.

I heard a parent say about their autistic child that the illness might be an explanation for the child's behaviour, but it is not an excuse. I think that's a sentence that all people should live by and should be judged by, regardless of what may serve as explanation for what goes on in their lives. We need to know the explanation - the "why" is the essence of every person, and the reason we feel any emotion about them. However, there is a line for everyone, and once that line is crossed, it's crossed. It's possible to relate to Maeglin, pity him, empathize with him, wish better luck or chances for him, seek the sources of his personality, etc. - and yet still find him guilty and deserving of the consequences that he got. An explanation is not always an excuse.

[Urwen]

If you think I don't know that, then look at my signature. If I found M[a]eglin completely blameless, I wouldn't have this signature.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As was the case with so very many of my clients. And where I was obliged to make that argument, even as I knew what the CA's standard riposte was going to be: "His crappy upbringing didn't pick up a gun and kill someone; he did."

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

As was the case with so very many of my clients. And where I was obliged to make that argument, even as I knew what the CA's standard riposte was going to be: "His crappy upbringing didn't pick up a gun and kill someone; he did."

Except that he didn't 'pick up' anything. Rather, he was the one picked up and tossed over the edge. Oh, and let's not forget that his arm was broken.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Except that he didn't 'pick up' anything. Rather, he was the one picked up and tossed over the edge. Oh, and let's not forget that his arm was broken.

Well... a dagger, to stab a small child when he didn't have time left to throw said small child over a cliff in front of his mother. But let's not split hairs (though I imagine Idril had some split hairs after being dragged around by them...).

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well... a dagger, to stab a small child when he didn't have time left to throw said small child over a cliff in front of his mother. But let's not split hairs (though I imagine Idril had some split hairs after being dragged around by them...).

hS

Breaking news: A 20-year-old (by human standards) attempts a murder, then gets tossed into the fire

(I might be a bit biased here, considering another fictional character I cherished deeply was also killed at the age of twenty, by one of the 'good guys')

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Breaking news: A 20-year-old (by human standards) attempts a murder, then gets tossed into the fire

Breaking news: a 20 year old sprays his local school with gasoline and sets it on fire. Following that fact he attempts to murder a 6-year-old and rape one of the teachers that he had a crush on since he was a kid. In attempting to protect the innocents in the building, one of the security guards attempts to apprehend the murderer-to-be but cannot do so without harming him, as the young man continues to fight and threatens the safety of other people. In the struggle the man is injured and ends up dying in the fire that he himself started.

Fixed that for you.

[Urwen]

Well, like I said.....

Originally Posted by Urwen

(I might be a bit biased here, considering another fictional character I cherished deeply was also killed at the age of twenty, by one of the 'good guys')

[Galadriel55]

Which other 20 year old are you referring to?

[Urwen]

He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.

Ah. I was thinking it's within the legendarium. Thanks for clarifying!

[Urwen]

I find Turin and Beleg's friendship inspirational.

[Urwen]

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Well, I think that Numenoreans would have avoided certain names as just TOO big (Finrod, Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Fingolfin: Turgon was an exception, as more than just a direct ancestor of the Kings but the Elf who explicitly agreed to his daughter marrying a Man, starting the whole thing. He was practically family). Villains were right out: Maeglin, Salgant, Saeros, Eol (How many Mordreds or Iagos have you met?) Aredhel means "noble Elf," so not good for a human woman. Actually, T gives us so few names of Numenorean women that we can't say names like Idril and Elenwe weren't used; we know that Finduilas was.

[Urwen]

Yes, this quote got me thinking about it

...and the name of Meglin has gone out of shame from among Eldar and Noldoli.

[Huinesoron]

Taking a few things in reverse...

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I think that Numenoreans would have avoided certain names as just TOO big (Finrod, Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Fingolfin: Turgon was an exception, as more than just a direct ancestor of the Kings but the Elf who explicitly agreed to his daughter marrying a Man, starting the whole thing. He was practically family). Villains were right out: Maeglin, Salgant, Saeros, Eol (How many Mordreds or Iagos have you met?) Aredhel means "noble Elf," so not good for a human woman. Actually, T gives us so few names of Numenorean women that we can't say names like Idril and Elenwe weren't used; we know that Finduilas was.

Tolkien Gateway claims that "Ingold" (ie, Finrod's Mother-name) was pretty popular among Numenoreans; I'm not sure what that claim is based on, though.

Without checking, I feel like it was mostly the post-king Gondorians who reused names (ie, the Stewards and Dol Amroth); there's an Earendil and a Turambar in the list of kings of Gondor, but the rest look pretty unfamiliar. The lines of Numenor and Arnor are equally non-First-Age. So I feel like there was an element of harking back to the Glory Days (even if they weren't Gondorian Glory Days) involved in the whole thing.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

There's also Legolas, scout of Gondolin. And Gildor Inglorion, whose name seems to indicate that he was the son of Inglor - but 'Inglor' was a name either of Finrod or Finarfin, and no family tree has ever given either of them a son named Gildor. So apparently there's two Inglors, too (though Gildor also claims to be of 'the golden house of Finrod', so... who knows!).

Of course, the external answer is that Tolkien frequently cannibalised the earlier Tales when writing LotR and its associated texts. That's why he had such trouble with Glorfindel - originally he was just a convenient name, but when he set to cleaning up the Gondolin tale for theoretical publication, he had to find a way to reconcile the two.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

Well... Finwe. Who named his sons Finwe, Finwe, and Finwe, then stuck some new bits on the front when he figured out their personalities. And then Finwe Jr I, now called Curufinwe, named one of his sons Curufinwe.

And then, after Finwe and Finwe Jr I were both dead, Finwe Jr II and Finwe Jr III both stuck their dad's name on the beginning of their own names, which were already their dad's name with something stuck on the beginning, because... somehow doing that made them more kingly?

Basically, if Mordred had just renamed himself Arthurevilarthur, he would've had the throne no problem.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note that the Kings of Gondor took names in Quenya, while the First Age Elves are ordinarily known by their Sindarin handles. So there may be more duplication than appears.

[Urwen]

I wonder how would Eol have felt if he knew that a mortal wielded his creation. If he is anything like his son, I reckon he'd be disgusted.

[Urwen]

A story I wrote about the Last Battle

Guess who it is about.....if you dare.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I wonder how would Eol have felt if he knew that a mortal wielded his creation. If he is anything like his son, I reckon he'd be disgusted.

I dunno... given that Eol hated basically all elves, he had a surprisingly good relationship with the dwarves. Maybe it was just because they were smiths, but he could also be seen as hating anyone who's had contact with Aman - and therefore liking by default those who haven't.

I could see him getting on quite well with Turin, who (to Eol's mind) quite rightly shunned his kinsman Thingol. I can also see him and Haleth hitting it off - after all, she hated House Feanor enough to drag her people through a Spider-infested valley rather than be connected to them, and then she snubbed Thingol something fierce. She had to go pretty much right past Nan Elmoth to reach Brethil, too... you know, I think there's a story in that.

(I wonder if I can tie it to my theory about Narsil being Haleth's sword...)

Originally Posted by Urwen

A story I wrote about the Last Battle

Guess who it is about.....if you dare.

See, now, I assumed it would be all about Maeglin reforging Gurthang and being revealed to be the hero all along...

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I value Turin and co. even more than M[a]eglin.

[Urwen]

P.S: I read your theory (the one where Maglor killed Maedhros) and I have mixed feelings about it.

[Urwen]

Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

P.S: I read your theory (the one where Maglor killed Maedhros) and I have mixed feelings about it.

Ohhh yes, that one. I really like that one. ^_^ Unlike a lot of my theories, I managed to stuff that idea with enough symbolism that it feels like something Tolkien could have written.

(Note that I'm not saying he did. Unlike the Not-So-Crackpot Theories, which go on the idea that Tolkien didn't tell us everything, the Filthy Liars section plays with the idea of Tolkien as an unreliable narrator. Much as I enjoy the theory itself, Tolkien was very clear on what happened to the Silmarils.)

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?

I'd sort of assume Mandos' judgement would take into account whether his guests had vengeance in their hearts, and not let them out until they were healed. So anyone who needed to be reembodied wouldn't hold a grudge. But... not all the elves of Gondolin died. I think at least a couple of the Lords of the City made it out, even (on checking, Tuor and Galdor are the only lords of houses to get past the Second Kinslaying, but even so).

But... assuming that Maeglin is released immediately after the end of the Third Age (this is amazingly generous; personally I doubt he's coming out at all), that's still over six thousand years for the survivors of Gondolin to hold a grudge. Can you imagine still caring about something after what's basically the entire length of human civilisation - and caring about it enough to commit murder, and get yourself brought before the Valar Themselves?

I don't imagine they'd particularly like Maeglin, at least at first. If the House of Finwe accepts him as one of their own, they could probably rehabilitate him - it's hard to imagine the survivors muttering against overmuch him once Turgon has publically forgiven him. But I don't think lynching is particularly likely.

THAT SAID... what about before reembodiment? I've taken the position before that the Halls of Mandos are a fairly solitary environment, but Tolkien gives us an example of quite an involved interaction between deceased elves: Finwe and Miriel, who pretty much put together a legal case in the Halls. So apparently they can meet up, and even disagree; so yeah, dead!Maeglin would most definitely be shunned, even assuming no form of pseudo-physical interaction was possible.

hS

[Urwen]

Did you see my new parodies? They pretty much play up on that idea.

[Urwen]

Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?

Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him.

Also......


"Thus with words have I slain one that I loved."

[Urwen]

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....