WW: LXXXVIII - Trouble in the Misty Mountains: Game Thread

[Galadriel55]

And I actually missed my 3000th post somewhere in this madness....

[Nerwen]

G55, if you're not just a wolf messing with our heads, you've got nothing to gloat about– you did this to yourself. And no, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

G55, if you're not just a wolf messing with our heads, you've got nothing to gloat about– you did this to yourself. And no, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I know I did this to myself. At first I kinda thought I was supposed to do it to myself, though through Night-kills. But then things got complicated, and this ended up happening a bit earlier than planned...

This would have been so much more fun if I was a wolf! Though it's fun enough as it is.

Edit: and yeah, if you can't find what I was talking about, wait for the narration, maybe it will point you to the right post... And you'll still get lembas... I'm in a good mood.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Sorry about this. I really shouldn't be this much trouble. I apologize. Thank you for not posting last twelve. In any case I'll have a narration up tomorrow, but for you...

Galadriel the Hunter was lynched. She takes Bom the Ordo with her. Enjoy Night 2.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

This was not a good cycle for the village... Sally the Seer was eaten during the night.

It is now Day.

[A Little Green]

Still nobody here? Ah well. I'll be going through Sally's posts, back with (hopefully) some ideas.

[A Little Green]

SALLY
(This is not a summary of all Sally's posts, but rather a focused analysis the purpose of which is to find out who she dreamed of.)

Boro, my prince, hold me.

My sweet prince, I've simply missed you. Don't you trust me?

Amid her loads of banter, the flirt with Boro is a recurring theme. I'm tempted to suggest that Boro is our first dreamed innocent. Mostly because I'm doubtful of whether a Seer would be so careless as to single someone out just randomly, knowing that her posts will be analysed with care once she's dead.

Won't vote:
Kath
Boro
Dun
Pitch
Greenie
Fresh Meat #1 and #2

In itself, this tells us little; more can (possibly) be read in comparison to a similar list from Day 2.

Something about Elf-Warrior's analysis looks off to me. It just seems forced, or like he's trying to say something without saying it. Definitely a mark in my suspicious column. Enough for a lynch vote? I'll have to consider it.

She ends up voting Elf-Warrior. Even if he wasn't known to be innocent, it would be pretty clear that Sally hadn't dreamed him yet. As he was pretty much her top suspect, though, it's very possible she dreamed him the next Night. That would also account for her expressed annoyance of him being Night-killed. Also, possibly, what led the wolves to her trail?

In the early phases of Day 2, she forcibly demands explanations for the EW kill and presents the idea of killing the ones in danger of modfire.

Based on both yesterDay's malarkey and reactions to my modfire plan toDay....

I will not vote for:
Kath
Kit
Greenie
Dun
Legate

There are a few notable differences to the previous Day's list. Firstly, Kit and Legate have made it there; Boro, however, has vanished from the list, making me doubt my original theory that he was Sally's first dream. The only ones that persist on the list are Kath and myself.

Concerning Gal's suspicion of Nerwen:

Nerwen: I was wary of the jump as well, but, well, I'll be frank. I rather suspect both of you.

She then votes Gal. Again, her suspicions do not seem to be based on Night dreams. If I had to hazard a guess as to who she dreamed of the Night she was killed, I'd say it was Nerwen. This will look potentially bad for her if the wolves thought like I do; then again, if they caught her Seerishness from other stuff, they would have gone for her whether Nerwen is a wolf or not.

[Nerwen]

Well, this is going wonderfully. I wonder if we can manage to avoid lynching the Ranger toDay, or will the strain prove too much?

All right, then: Sally. I don't have time right now to put together a proper analysis, with quotes and everything, but I have been reading through her posts. I think she dreamed Boro (innocent)– she seemed very positive about him in general, and at #108 she actually said to him, "I trust your judgement". I know they tend to flirt a bit, but a Seer would probably avoid saying that about an unknown.

Unfortunately, I'd say there's a very good chance her other dream was The Elf-warrior– that would explain why she was so annoyed when he was killed. The other possibility would be Kath on Night One, explaining why Sally was so ready to dismiss Kath's vote on her.

I really can't see what gave her away, unless it was one of the things I just mentioned, which aren't exactly obvious. Maybe the wolves are using my kill list now.

I'm afraid Sally didn't dream a wolf, or she wouldn't have been urging the lynch of the potential modfirees yesterDay. (Well, unless she dreamed one of them, but I don't think she said anything that would point to that.)

EDIT:X'd with Greenie.

[A Little Green]

Oh. I see I forgot to draw some definite conclusions. Right, so I'd say Sally dreamed
Night 1 - Inzil (forgot him in my last post, sorry!), Kath or myself since we are the ones wh persist on her "will not vote" -list; Boro would also be a possibility, but his disappearance from the "will not vote" -list somewhat downplays this theory.
and Night 2 - Elf-Warrior would be the logical conclusion since he was her top suspect, and she expressed frustration when he was Night-killed; Legate and Kit appeared on her "will not vote" -list, making them possibilities too, but I'm inclined to believe it was EW.

This wasn't very definite, though, was it?


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

All right, then: Sally. I don't have time right now to put together a proper analysis, with quotes and everything, but I have been reading through her posts. I think she dreamed Boro (innocent)– she seemed very positive about him in general, and at #108 she actually said to him, "I trust your judgement". I know they tend to flirt a bit, but a Seer would probably avoid saying that about an unknown.

Unfortunately, I'd say there's a very good chance her other dream was The Elf-warrior– that would explain why she was so annoyed when he was killed. The other possibility would be Kath on Night One, explaining why Sally was so ready to dismiss Kath's vote on her.

I see Nerwen is thinking much along the same lines as I am; also, I think the point about Kath is a good one.

It's the classic "only myself and Nerwen around" -time of day!

[Nerwen]

Greenie, I think you are putting too much stock in this "will not vote" list. I doubt it's any kind of Seer-code, since there seems to be no way of narrowing it down to less than three people.

EDIT:X'd with Greenie.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Greenie, I think you are putting too much stock in this "will not vote" list. I doubt it's any kind of Seer-code, since there seems to be no way of narrowing it down to less than three people.

I agree it's unlikely to be any kind of code per se. However, I'd expect that if she had dreamed an innocent, that innocent wouldn't be one she considered to vote, and thus would be expected to appear on that list. Make sense?

[Nerwen]

Of course, you could say the same about her general statements about people– since they also seem to leave three possibilities– but that's not quite the same as leaving hints in a list.

EDIT:X'd with Greenie.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I agree it's unlikely to be any kind of code per se. However, I'd expect that if she had dreamed an innocent, that innocent wouldn't be one she considered to vote, and thus would be expected to appear on that list. Make sense?

Okay, I see what you mean now. However, that second list is prefaced by, "Based on both yesterDay's malarkey and reactions to my modfire plan toDay...." that is, I should say, "...not on my dreams..."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So Sally was

Day 1 - suspecting and voting EW, and posting a list of people she does not want to vote.

Day 2 - offering modfire-threatened people to be lynched. That would point at least to one thing: she most likely did NOT dream a Wolf that Night, or the previous, since then she'd have at least proposed it.

Given this, I propose her first dream was among those:

Kath
Boro
Dun
Pitch
Greenie
Fresh Meat #1 and #2

I don't know about her "sweetprincing" with Boro, but it does not say anything. As it has been pointed out, Boro is not on her "will not vote for" list on next Day.

Also, there is this on next Day:

Re: Pitch: I told thee so!

What "I told thee so"? I only know her mentioning Pitch on the list. Therefore, I would dare to propose that her initial dream was actually Pitch.

Day 2 list of those she won't vote for:

Kath
Kit
Greenie
Dun
Legate

Okay, so: the only recurring names are Kath, Dun and Greenie. However, if I am right and she dreamt of Pitch first, then unless she dreamt TEW on Night 2, she could have also dreamt of a "new" person: me or Kit. The question is, whom she would be likely to dream of. I mean: reasons? Why to choose either of us? Of all I would see most probable dream to be TEW, to be honest, based on logic: I don't know if me or Kit were as "interesting". Then again, who knows what logic sally used.

I must leave for now, so I will leave you to ponder the rest of the implications and questions I have raised (see above). Will be back later, but not sure how much later.

EDIT: x-ed since Greenie's sallylysis

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Legate

What "I told thee so"? I only know her mentioning Pitch on the list. Therefore, I would dare to propose that her initial dream was actually Pitch.

Possible, I think. Then again, would she not have tried to defend him or vote for a more possible lynch candidate to save him?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

All right, then: Sally. I don't have time right now to put together a proper analysis, with quotes and everything, but I have been reading through her posts. I think she dreamed Boro (innocent)– she seemed very positive about him in general, and at #108 she actually said to him, "I trust your judgement". I know they tend to flirt a bit, but a Seer would probably avoid saying that about an unknown.

Disagreed, and see above why. Unless sally was super-hyper-covering her trail that she was dreaming of him by not putting him on her list next Day, which I don't believe she would, then Boro was most definitely NOT her dream.

Unfortunately, I'd say there's a very good chance her other dream was The Elf-warrior– that would explain why she was so annoyed when he was killed. The other possibility would be Kath on Night One, explaining why Sally was so ready to dismiss Kath's vote on her.

This makes sense, and good point about Kath too.

I really can't see what gave her away, unless it was one of the things I just mentioned, which aren't exactly obvious. Maybe the wolves are using my kill list now.

Don't say it twice or I will start pondering lynching you. I mean, I can see you being a Wolf and happily posting this statement. So watch it, because I am watching you. No more trust from me. I don't like it how you push that Boro was innocent, while there are rather good arguments contra. Any chance the WWs are you and Boro (and somebody)?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Oh. I see I forgot to draw some definite conclusions. Right, so I'd say Sally dreamed
Night 1 - Inzil (forgot him in my last post, sorry!), Kath or myself since we are the ones wh persist on her "will not vote" -list; Boro would also be a possibility, but his disappearance from the "will not vote" -list somewhat downplays this theory.
and Night 2 - Elf-Warrior would be the logical conclusion since he was her top suspect, and she expressed frustration when he was Night-killed; Legate and Kit appeared on her "will not vote" -list, making them possibilities too, but I'm inclined to believe it was EW.

I see we arrived to the same conclusions. However, I suggest people also ponder my Night 1 - Pitch theory. I know this "re:" stuff is not anything big, but it might be.

And now I really have to go. I have player characters in D&D to kill today (well... not really, but...).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Possible, I think. Then again, would she not have tried to defend him or vote for a more possible lynch candidate to save him?

She tried to vote for somebody else, right? Does that count as attempt? But you are maybe right. One would have to look at the votes to see when she voted and all that. Sadly, I really have to run now. Somebody please could check it?

[Nerwen]

I'm pretty sure she didn't dream of Pitch, Legate, as she made no attempt at all to save him. "I told you so' surely refers to her own reaction to the "Pitchwaggon" (#61):

Originally Posted by Sally the Seer

Dudes, this is messed up.

I'll be home in about fifteen minutes. Try not to go crazier, okay?

That doesn't sound to me at all like a Seer dismayed at watching her known innocent dragged to the gallows– more like an onlooker going, "What the–?"

On that note, and looking again at the voting on Day One– I realise Sally was around at the time Boro and I starting talking about voting Kath, and only pointed out "this is hardly the first time Kath has done this", which is really a pretty lukewarm defence.

I suppose you could argue that Pitch's fate was already sealed, but still, there was an hour to go and some people yet to vote.

EDIT:X'd since Legate at #215.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate

Don't say it twice or I will start pondering lynching you. I mean, I can see you being a Wolf and happily posting this statement.

Oh, so can I – but I'm not, as it happens.

Originally Posted by Legate

So watch it, because I am watching you. No more trust from me. I don't like it how you push that Boro was innocent, while there are rather good arguments contra.

Quite a distortion, there, Legate. I didn't "push it", I put it forward as a logical inference. Why are you "pushing" that she dreamed Pitch– which really doesn't make sense?

[Nerwen]

Legate, the point is not who is right– unfortunately, I'm not sure we *can* come to a definite conclusion– it's that, well, we've lost the Seer, the best we can do is try to glean what we can from her comments while alive. As is usual. Why try to frighten people off a particular line of reasoning? I mean, it's one thing to say, "I don't agree with you because of such-and-such", quite another to– well, honestly, you're pretty close to threatening me there. A bit excessive, surely?

[Nerwen]

Actually, Legate has been making a habit of aggressively steering the discussion away from certain topics. He did it on Day One, with his "warning vote" on TEW, and on Day Two by stepping in to end the theorising over why TEW had been killed. Not that I can't see the logic of that– after a certain point, such talk can become a waste of time and a distraction, or even a nice smokescreen for the evil side. Still, this is becoming a pattern. I don't know what it means, though– I could hardly call it a sign of lupinity, since the Legwolf I remember is a *lot* smoother and sneakier.

[Inziladun]

It seems clear that Sally had not dreamed any wolves, as both her votes were on proven innocents, and she offered up no strong suspicions on anyone else.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay, I see what you mean now. However, that second list is prefaced by, "Based on both yesterDay's malarkey and reactions to my modfire plan toDay...." that is, I should say, "...not on my dreams..."

I agree that we shouldn't out too much stock in Sally's "will not vote" lists. Just as her votes were obviously not based on dreams, we have no way of knowing who, if any of those in the lists were there because they dreamed, or just because of thread activity.

Regarding the question of whether Pitch was one of her dreams, I rather doubt it.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

She tried to vote for somebody else, right? Does that count as attempt? But you are maybe right. One would have to look at the votes to see when she voted and all that. Sadly, I really have to run now. Somebody please could check it?

After Sally made the "This is messed up" post, Bom gave Pitch a fourth vote. When Sally returned, she made no effort at all to defend Pitch. She simply brushed aside Kath's vote for her, gave a "won't vote" list, and proceeded to vote for TEW. I really think that if she'd dreamed of Pitch, she would have made some effort to sway those who were around and still hadn't voted: herself, Boro, Nerwen, and TEW.

[Kitanna]

Conclusions on Sally
1) She suspected and voted E-W based on his analysis post. I second whoever said she probably dreamt of him on Night 2. She did seem adamant about finding out why E-W over others on Nerwen's kill-list.
2) She kept returning to that idea. I'm not sure why.
3) Her modfire idea was ill conceived and even she backed down right away. This above all else tells me she probably only dreamt ordos and no wolves. If she had put Laeko or Azura forward as a lynch candidate I could believe she dreamt one a wolf.
4) In post 151 she tells Nerwen she suspects her more than G55 (at least I believe that's who she's referring to. But she still votes G55. I think Sally wanted to dream Nerwen at this point. If Sally meant that to be a hint, it was subtle and unless the wolves expected her to be the Seer and were looking for those clues, I can't say how much that means in the long run.

Originally Posted by Greenie

She then votes Gal. Again, her suspicions do not seem to be based on Night dreams. If I had to hazard a guess as to who she dreamed of the Night she was killed, I'd say it was Nerwen. This will look potentially bad for her if the wolves thought like I do; then again, if they caught her Seerishness from other stuff, they would have gone for her whether Nerwen is a wolf or not.

Obviously I'm not alone here.
5) I think Sally may have dreamt of Kath. Just based on her reaction to Kath's vote for her on Day 1. I've seen Sally get worked up over votes like that, but she was calm and didn't accuse Kath of her own Lupine activity.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I really can't see what gave her away, unless it was one of the things I just mentioned, which aren't exactly obvious. Maybe the wolves are using my kill list now.

I think the wolves lucked out. Sally says a lot without really giving anything away until her vote post.

Originally Posted by Greenie

I see Nerwen is thinking much along the same lines as I am; also, I think the point about Kath is a good one.

And I've thought along the same lines myself. I should read all the current posts instead of skimming.

I'm interested in how Nerwen and Legate are going back and forth right now. Nerwen, you seem awfully jumpy about it.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Don't say it twice or I will start pondering lynching you. I mean, I can see you being a Wolf and happily posting this statement. So watch it, because I am watching you. No more trust from me. I don't like it how you push that Boro was innocent, while there are rather good arguments contra. Any chance the WWs are you and Boro (and somebody)?

I would hardly call that "pushing."

sally would be one to have some code, but whether it's too confusing for us to follow, it probably won't be worth the effort to try to figure it out. If it matters to anyone I'll try giving a crack at it. But I would prefer not to be lynched, seeing as we need wolves.

Otherwise, I'm going to be spending my time on who's a wolf to lynch and not unravelling sally's hidden code.

Usually we find the most fantastic ways to mess these games up, but I'm not too happy with the 2 known gifteds so far. These misfortunes aren't on our hands, you could have you know, been a bit more helpful?

[Inziladun]

I wanted to look at one who hasn't really been in the spotlight.

Day 1

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I honestly forgot the Day had started. I thought about it five minutes ago. I'm rushing to catch up and take care of RL stuff at the same time. I'll return in...half an hourish with comments.

First post. Nothing noteworthy.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Cake, lots of cake.

Could be crazy enough to work though, depends on the wolves.


Was it you?


Rage against GoT RAGE!

These first few responses are directed at various people, including me. Again, nothing stands out.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I find the back and forth between Pitch, Boro, and Bom interesting, for reasons I have yet to decide on.
Boro:
Pitch:
These three posts are what jumped out at me.
In regards to what Boro said about Bom using jokes as a shield I think that can be said for most everyone on Day 1. I thought it was interesting Boro brought up only Bom.
I like the point Pitch made, but not because it was directed at Bom, but I think that's a good thing to keep in mind in general. Any one of these banter/ silly accusations could be easily forgotten and then built on later for good or evil. It's a stretch, but some banter shouldn't be completely discarded.

What I've seen as most interesting is Bom's defense of his jokes over the course of a few of his posts. (15 & 20 mostly). That seemed fishy to me. I shouldn't be too quick to judge though, he's not the only one to keep bringing up the joke posts. Inzil, Boro, and Pitch made more than one mention of it as well.

It seems like too easy a target to jump on. I guess at least it's circulating conversation...

She zeros in on the exchanges among Bom, Boro, and Pitch. She thought Pitch had a good point, and she didn't like the way Bom was defending his jokes. But then she decided that Bom was "too easy a target to jump on".

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Gods, I must leave the game over GoT, I swear I will. *puts fingers in ears...er eyes*

I know I came late and time is short, but you explain why he's so vicious?

Next was a throwaway remark to Pitch, followed by a question to Bom over why he said Pitch was "vicious".

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I read this post after making my above observations. I feel much the same way.

She then agrees with G55 that the debate over Bom and his jokes was "pointless".

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I would like an explanation from Bom as well, but this seems like Pitchie got his hackles raised.

Next, she responds to Pitch, saying she wanted more from Bom as well, but apparently thought Pitch was overreacting.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

(I'm sorry my post is all over the place, train of thought writing tonight I'm afraid.)
In response to this, Pitch seems reasonable enough in what he said to G55. I agreed with G55 that something more interesting could be going on, but Pitch isn't being unreasonable in saying playing the middle ground is as wolfish as anything else. I don't agree with him in this case, but I don't this is an example of him being vicious.

There she disagrees with Bom about Pitch's "viciousness".

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I feel out of the Inzil, Boro, Bom, and Pitch thing, Boro speaks the most sense. I don't know how I feel about Inzil. And Bom and Pitch are at each others' throats.
Pitch makes a good point about G55 and how she is just sort of straddling the middle ground, but I don't really like how he got his hackles up when Bom called him vicious. I don't agree with Bom when he says Pitch is vicious, but his reaction was kind of alarming.
Bom is no better with getting his panties all up in a twist. He jokes, he's not the only one, bringing that up initially might have been a waste of time, but watching his reaction and others has made for interesting debate. Nerwen calls him an easy target. I don't know how true that is, but he certainly isn't doing himself any favors by getting so worked up. The more worked up he gets the more noticeable and suspicious he becomes. Wolves and innocents do this and that's why I think he's so dangerous. On the other hand Pitch is helping him stay in the spotlight and that's equally as dangerous.

Ok, so here she doesn't seem to able to make up her mind who looks the worst out of the Bom/Pitch pair. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

On another topic Kath's vote reasoning has me worried.

I read this like Kath wants to bandwagon Sally to scare her into revealing something that may or may not be there. That seems downright dastardly to me.

Now comes a suspicion about Kath's vote, which was somewhat dodgy. The only thing I find odd about Kit's response is that she calls it "downright dastardly", which seems a pretty strong condemnation.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I need to sleep. I'm sorry I missed the Day. I wish I had more time to comment and reread.

Honestly I wish I could vote for Bom and Pitch. I feel like they're both trying to push the other into the spotlight. It's not a good deal. The other two most connected with this (Boro and Inzil) have both stepped back, but these two are dangerous in my mind.

Bom made a joke and the reactions have become the thing of debate. He's been overreacting since the start. He's building a case of a vicious Pitch who is just attacking everyone.

Pitch, I have agreed with on some of his points. I don't think he latched onto G55 as soon as she entered, but made a reasonable comment in regards to her dove on the olive branch. However this quote is the most worrying thing I've seen so far: Pitch spoke reason at times, but this seems way too suspicious. He's pulling an innocent Bom in at the same time as pushing a wolfie Bom back, if that makes sense.

This was a tough choice, but rereading Pitch's reaction to Bom's vicious comment made my mind up.

++ Pitch

Here's her vote for Pitch, which crossed with mine.
She did a fairly detailed analysis of the Bom/Pitch matter, and seemed to come out of it undecided. She says it was Pitch's reaction to Bom's "vicious" naming that swayed her in the end. That's all well and good.

I have to wonder, though, what happened to the concern over Kath being "downright dastardly"? Was that not worth a vote"

Day 2

Originally Posted by Kitanna

The first three votes for Pitch came in pretty quick succession. I believe she had no idea Zil and I voted for him, just like I had no idea Zil had voted for him when I put mine down. However, Pitch was generating a lot of conversation and suspicion around him. I don't like this reasoning of "just out of spite" because Pitch wasn't just a random player who hadn't had much activity.

Dislikes G55's reasoning for voting Pitch. I can't argue with that.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

She seems to have gotten confused between Pitch and Bom here. Given how much Bom's jokes were discussed that's just unbelievable to me. And then there's the aforementioned reason she gave which as far as I can tell is directed at Pitch and not a Bom reason by mistake.

Moving on, I feel like Boro speaks a lot of sense in his next posts. He makes some observations regarding Kath's vote, the way Pitch and Bom both backed down after G55's "this is pointless" post, and the Pitch bandwagon (coincidence or nefarious activity?). He's certainly the most sensible person in my opinion, which means he can't be trusted.

Bom votes for Pitch and that hardly comes as a surprise. I was wrong about Pitch and now I wonder how wrong I've been about Bom. I easily could have voted for him as well, now I'm going to have to examine him closer than I had the chance to before.

Thinks G55 got Bom and Pitch confused. Thinks Boro is sensible, and wonders about Bom some more.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

*slap*

Sally voted for TeW because
I would like more details on this suspicion.

Boro votes for Kath, no surprise there. Nerwen does too. Nerwen gives the reason that she doesn't a universal bandwagon and Kath's vote was suspect. But in the same breath she states Kath may just not know what to do, thus defending her. When Nerwen made her reasoning post Boro was already commenting that he might vote for Kath even if it was a throwaway. Then Nerwen agrees? I don't know about that. Stop one bandwagon and attempt to start another?

I don't get Boro's "winter is coming" remark and the accompanying *slap*. I guess it's an inside joke.
Kit wants details from Sally about why she voted TEW.
She then casts some suspicion on Nerwen's vote for Kath, saying she didn't like the way Nerwen had defended Kath, then voted for her anyway.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

TODAY
I'm glad Nerwen did an analysis of E-W because I wouldn't have had time to.


I feel the people listed here (Pitch excluded) deserve some looking over. Nerwen may have a point here.

Agrees with Nerwen that Legate and I should be looked at because TEW suspected us.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Mmmm

So based on yesterday's votes I think Kath, G55, and Nerwen are looking the worst now.

I stated my reasons regarding Kath in my lengthy post yesterday. Her "let's get a cornered sally to fight" reasoning was just too suspicious for me.

G55 spent a long time talking about how pointless the debate over jokes were, then she turns around a votes for one of the main players. She confuses Bom and Pitch and then makes a "I'm sorry, it was a mistake" post this morning. I don't like that either. Her actual reason for voting for Pitch (out of spite) was no better. Him and Bom had both garnered a lot of attention. I would have been surprised if neither one of them was voted for and then she makes that comment? Not very nice at all, precious.

And Nerwen. Her vote for Kath wasn't a surprise because she had said earlier it might be a possibility. But I don't like the placement of her reasoning. She says she wants to stop a universal bandwagon and because Kath's vote is suspect after Boro says he's probably voting for Kath. As I said earlier, one bandwagon for another? I don't think Kath was ever really in danger of being lynched yesterday, but Nerwen's reasoning are too convenient for my liking.

Concludes that Kath, G55, and Nerwen look the worst at that moment.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

We run a lot of risk doing this. We may save ourselves too many innocent loses, but we also buy the wolves time as well. I'd rather not waste my vote on people who are in danger of modfire. I want to use my vote on someone I actually suspect. And if everyone says "well they're dead anyway" and votes like that we have no trail to follow on Day 3 where voting is concerned. It's easier to hide behind comments, but hiding behind votes is oh so much harder.

This was a response to Sally's "lynch the modfires" proposition.
I agreed with this.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I'm not crazy about this reasoning. Bandwagons like the one against Pitch can reveal a lot. He was suspicious to a number of people and everyone had a different reason. It's not like the bandwagon of possible modfires Sally suggested that leaves no traces. But more importantly I don't like that you brought up this plan after Boro. Seemed too opportunistic.

Reiterates that Nerwen's reasoning for voted Kath was suspicious.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I have clearly aligned with myself. Team Kit!

Apparently joking response to Greenie.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I have already disagreed with your plan, but if it wasn't a complete waste I would vote for them on the grounds of being inconsiderate. If you're not going to comment or vote at all wait until you can join a game where you can. /anger

Says to Sally that she still doesn't want to lynch the potential modfires, but dislikes the non-participation. Nothing really to say about that.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Someone you trusted like a fellow wolf, perhaps?

An unfocused accusation against Sally. Joking?

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I missed the post by Bom. I wish I had seen that before voting yesterday. I don't know if I'd have changed my vote, but it would have given me more to consider. Bom's pretty much disappeared today and that's a shame because I wasn't done suspecting him. But I won't sit here and regurgitate what I've already said about him.

A response to Boro about Bom.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I tend to go after Sally because she makes more posts than anyone, but only about 10% or her posts have substance. So I sympathize with Kath there. But even so there are better ways to scare up a Sally than a vote. But I guess when you're pressed for time you have to work with what you got. Still...

This was to Kath, who had said why she voted for Sally. Kit seems to accept the explanation, at least partly.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Every slip of the tongue is scrutinized in WW, for better or worse. The more important suspicion for me is the fact you said you were voting for Pitch out of spite, but he'd garnered a lot of suspicion already. You cross posted so you thought you were the first to vote for him, but he had a lot of buzz and so I don't buy you "out of spite" reasoning.

That was to G55. Kit wasn't going for her defense of her Pitch vote.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I'm against protecting your lot. You're lucky you didn't really say anything yesterday.

A response to Laeko.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I got no time today. If I live until Day 3 I will be around for actual comment. I only had some time to skim and I narrowed my choices to Nerwen, G55, and Bom. For now I'm putting Kath on a watch list because I still don't like her vote reasoning. But I like the others less.

++ Bom

He hasn't said anything today...that I noticed at least. But I reread his posts and his comment about Pitch being vicious got Pitch all worked up and I used that as a reason to vote Pitch yesterday. Upon rereading his posts I find that a pretty wolfish move. It made Pitch look bad when he reacted (at least in my eyes) and kept him prevalent in people's minds. He backed off Pitch, but still voted for him. Not good at all.

And a vote for Bom. Now, I said myself that Bom not being around shouldn't necessarily stop one from voting for him, if one had a sound suspicion. She'd said earlier that Day that Kath, G55, and Nerwen were her top 3 suspects, yet went with Bom, despite lamenting that he hadn't been around.

Day 3

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Conclusions on Sally
1) She suspected and voted E-W based on his analysis post. I second whoever said she probably dreamt of him on Night 2. She did seem adamant about finding out why E-W over others on Nerwen's kill-list.
2) She kept returning to that idea. I'm not sure why.
3) Her modfire idea was ill conceived and even she backed down right away. This above all else tells me she probably only dreamt ordos and no wolves. If she had put Laeko or Azura forward as a lynch candidate I could believe she dreamt one a wolf.
4) In post 151 she tells Nerwen she suspects her more than G55 (at least I believe that's who she's referring to. But she still votes G55. I think Sally wanted to dream Nerwen at this point. If Sally meant that to be a hint, it was subtle and unless the wolves expected her to be the Seer and were looking for those clues, I can't say how much that means in the long run.
Obviously I'm not alone here.
5) I think Sally may have dreamt of Kath. Just based on her reaction to Kath's vote for her on Day 1. I've seen Sally get worked up over votes like that, but she was calm and didn't accuse Kath of her own Lupine activity.

Her main conclusion is that Kath was likely Sally's Night 1 dream.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I think the wolves lucked out. Sally says a lot without really giving anything away until her vote post.

And I've thought along the same lines myself. I should read all the current posts instead of skimming.

I'm interested in how Nerwen and Legate are going back and forth right now. Nerwen, you seem awfully jumpy about it.

Interested in the exchange between Legate and Nerwen, concluding that Nerwen seems "jumpy".

Well, what to say? I agree with many of the things Kit has said, and the wishy-washiness about Bom and Pitch seems understandable.

Her votes are suspect, though. She levelled such a strong accusation against Kath on Day 1, then didn't follow it up with a vote. She'd spent a lot a time on the Bom/Pitch thing, but she didn't use such firm language with either of them as she did with Kath.

And on Day 2, she votes for one who hadn't been around, Bom, when she admittedly had 3 other suspects who had been active.

Conclusion? Colour Bright Amber, verging on Red.

[Boromir88]

This is probably going to get me lynched, but whatever. The gifteds have either gone to be a martyr or left a confusing trail of dreams to follow. But, I think this can help and if it makes me more suspicious so be it.

I agree with Nerwen that the "do not vote lists" of sally's are a waste of time. Maybe a dreamed innocent or two are in there, but it's impossible to narrow the possible dreams down based soley on the "do not vote" lists.

sally might be crazy and confusing, but she's not silly enough to leave no hints and have us be totally lost. I know Greenie and Nerwen brought me up as a possible sally dream, but I really don't think so. Normally I make sense as an early dream, and sally and I do have a history. But that lover reference, Princess Bride business is pretty normal. I took it as she was trying to see if she could trust me, and her "I trust your judgement" on day 2, still comes off as she thought me innocent, but hadn't used a dream on me.

The suggestion that she dreamed of Pitch or TEW, I think is pretty weak, for reasons already stated on Pitch. After TEW was killed she said

Re: Elf-Warrior: What the heck, wolves? I really wanted to lynch him!

Even if she was suspicious of TEW on Day 1, why would she say, after he's been killed by the wolves "I really wanted to lynch him" if she dreamed of TEW night 2?

So, she had 2 dreams, and both are likely then still alive. I'm inclined to agree that she hadn't dreamed a wolf yet, just based on her votes. First for TEW (killed by wolves) and 2nd for G55 (hunter). Granted, if she did dream a wolf, she wouldn't go parading the information around in plain sight, but all of her hints are weighed towards people looking innocent.

If this gets both of you in trouble, because you know as presumed village innocent you'll suddenly become wolf meat, then I apologize to you two. But then again, there's still the Ranger who might be able to head off the wolves with this information.

I think her dreams were Kath and Kit. Sally was completely unphased by Kath's vote, and then Kath's continued suspicions the following day. We should know sally well enough to know, when she's innocent she's usually proclaiming it often and always brings up how if she's lynched the village has a history of losing. Kath's vote and suspicions she just seemed unbothered by completely (although I think this has already been said).

Now, to me this looks like an obvious hint right in front of us. Not the normal lover-behavior she displays towards me, but a rather clear and straight forward hint. Not obvious enough if we didn't know she was the seer that probably would have been spotted, but in hindisght, looks clear enough to me:

Originally Posted by sally

It's nice to know at least one person who's on my side.

"know someone is on my side," it's not ambigious language like "trust" or a non-vote list of 5-6 people. (But it would explain why Kit was added onto the non-vote list later).

That's all on sally I'm doing for the day. Make of it what you will. I think her dreams were an innocent Kit and Kath.

Edit: crossed with Inzil.

[A Little Green]

Random observation: both Boro and Kath seem razor-sharp this game. I mean, even more so than usual. It's kind of scary.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Random observation: both Boro and Kath seem razor-sharp this game. I mean, even more so than usual. It's kind of scary.

I'll buy the "more so than usual" feeling, because not to sound ego-tistical, but I think I'm right about sally's dreams. But this is exactly why I debated on whether I wanted to go through her posts to even find the dreams. Come on Greenie, you know I can find the seer hints with the best of them. If I don't do it, I'm a wolf because I normally do do it. If I do it, then I'm too sharp and I must have known already sally was the seer.

It's easy to pick up the trail in hindsight if you read it carefully. And the seer has no intentions at all to be confusing or misleading, it's just a process of following her votes and what sally posted. She wouldn't have dreamed of people she voted for (and it's pretty clear from her first post on Day 2 she didn't dream of TEW). She wouldn't put known dreamed wolves in her non-vote list, but would include dreamed innocents. I can assume well enough she didn't dream of me, because her trust was based upon my posts and judgement. She made no attempt to save Pitch.

Limit the options left and open your eyes to comments she made towards specific people and it's clear as day. Not to get all uptight, but this sort of stuff irks me. I'm not razor-sharp, I'm not brilliant, I'm following what's right in front of you.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

"know someone is on my side," it's not ambigious language like "trust" or a non-vote list of 5-6 people. (But it would explain why Kit was added onto the non-vote list later).

That's all on sally I'm doing for the day. Make of it what you will. I think her dreams were an innocent Kit and Kath.

I suppose that's a possibility for Sally's dreams, but I think it's a reach where Kit is concerned. That "on my side" comment just looks to me like an throwaway remark.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'll buy the "more so than usual" feeling, because not to sound ego-tistical, but I think I'm right about sally's dreams. But this is exactly why I debated on whether I wanted to go through her posts to even find the dreams. Come on Greenie, you know I can find the seer hints with the best of them. If I don't do it, I'm a wolf because I normally do do it. If I do it, then I'm too sharp and I must have known already sally was the seer.

It's easy to pick up the trail in hindsight if you read it carefully. And the seer has no intentions at all to be confusing or misleading, it's just a process of following her votes and what sally posted. She wouldn't have dreamed of people she voted for (and it's pretty clear from her first post on Day 2 she didn't dream of TEW). She wouldn't put known dreamed wolves in her non-vote list, but would include dreamed innocents. I can assume well enough she didn't dream of me, because her trust was based upon my posts and judgement. She made no attempt to save Pitch.

Limit the options left and open your eyes to comments she made towards specific people and it's clear as day. Not to get all uptight, but this sort of stuff irks me. I'm not razor-sharp, I'm not brilliant, I'm following what's right in front of you.

Mmmn, well, I think Sally could have done with being a lot less ambiguous. I certainly hope you are right that she didn't dream TEW. (My thinking was that she made that comment about wanting to lynch him because at that point she didn't need to hint at his role, since he was dead.)

Regarding Kath: the argument in favour of her being the Night One dream is obvious. However, Sally didn't really react that much when there was talk of voting Kath on Day One, which is bugging me a bit. It may be simply that it never seemed that Kath was in real danger.

Although, I'd say Sally *herself* could have swung the lynch Kath's way, had she wanted to– which should be a final nail in the coffin of Legate's Pitch-theory.

Regarding which: look, I don't know what to make of Legate. On the one hand, he's been promoting a theory of events which would be most convenient for the evil side– i.e. that both Sally's dreams are already dead– and which even a quick look over the end of Day One should have discounted. On the other, he's certainly not acting anything like he normally does as a wolf. Thoughts?

[Kath]

Interjection of unhelpful real life: Just popping in for a moment. I'm in the midst of moving house and may not have reliable internet after the next 45 minutes. If I definitely can't get on I'll call my sister and ask her to let you all know. Hopefully all will be fine though!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I can't fully concentrate right now, so this post will be just short in regards to what I have seen...

Re: Nerwen: Sorry for sounding perhaps a bit aggressive, it was more like a threat in the way that I am not trusting my own shadow anymore. As for proposing "ridiculous" Pitch-dreamt of - theory, I did not connect the sally's comment with his lynching. Yet I still believe he was a possible dream, and certainly at least as logical as your Boro theory, or in fact, more: I repeat, Boro was not at Sally's trust-list on the second day. If she dreamt of him, that'd be a really poor Seer-job, illogical thing to do anyway (no reason to switch your opinions on innocents even if you e.g. wanted to hide yourself).

Otherwise, I am becoming more and more suspicious of Boro: he is really acting incredibly "Agreeable" in his later posts. As innocent, he is usually far more inquisitive, and really now he just is sort of honey-tongued. I could consider him for my vote.

Will be back later.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate

Re: Nerwen: Sorry for sounding perhaps a bit aggressive, it was more like a threat in the way that I am not trusting my own shadow anymore.

But you understand that I put forward that theory *before* Greenie pointed out the anomaly of Boro's being left off the list the second Day?

Originally Posted by Legate

Yet I still believe he was a possible dream, and certainly at least as logical as your Boro theory, or in fact, more: I repeat, Boro was not at Sally's trust-list on the second day.

Hang-on– you still believe it now? Have you read the counter-arguments, Legate?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Boro

I'll buy the "more so than usual" feeling, because not to sound ego-tistical, but I think I'm right about sally's dreams. But this is exactly why I debated on whether I wanted to go through her posts to even find the dreams. Come on Greenie, you know I can find the seer hints with the best of them. If I don't do it, I'm a wolf because I normally do do it. If I do it, then I'm too sharp and I must have known already sally was the seer.

Hmmn. I think I called you scary, not suspicious, but the fact that you immediately thought I did is either very interesting, or else just means I need to learn to express myself more clearly.


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Otherwise, I am becoming more and more suspicious of Boro: he is really acting incredibly "Agreeable" in his later posts. As innocent, he is usually far more inquisitive, and really now he just is sort of honey-tongued. I could consider him for my vote.

Really? You keep saying I'm being Mr. Agreeable, but seriously, are you even reading my posts? What about them is so "agreeable?" The fact that I'm not being a big enough pain, jumping around like a madman demanding everyone listen to me? Sorry to disappoint you, but I see no point in going off half-cocked, all but begging to be lynched.

I'm going to fight my need of getting the last word to prove something. If you want to reply, go for it, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not getting into a flame war with you. If you find me suspicious, so be it, but you better bring the suspicions instead of this baseless Mr. Agreeable business. Maybe I should question your innocence more, but right now it won't do any good, to let the frustration get in the way of a fair Legate-analysis. But if you are innocent, I'm no longer listening nor trusting your opinion.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Hmmn. I think I called you scary, not suspicious, but the fact that you immediately thought I did is either very interesting, or else just means I need to learn to express myself more clearly.

Be clearer then or don't back away and act like you meant nothing by it. Scary is like saying weird, strange, and odd. All words that are meant to convey someone acting suspicious, but scary sounds more of a serious suspicion. At least that's how I interpret it.

It gets me frustrated when I think it's mostly innocent intention driving it. Because we get so clouded by it all it leads to is both of us putting on blinders, getting angry and innocents lynching innocents. I guess it's the pains of the reputation, to want to be trusted, but everyone knows you're capable of straight out manipulation.

Rest assured, I am done getting bothered by all this, upcoming is the analysis I on Inzil I started yesterday, but got distracted by a hunter going off the deep end.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Boro

Be clearer then or don't back away and act like you meant nothing by it. Scary is like saying weird, strange, and odd. All words that are meant to convey someone acting suspicious, but scary sounds more of a serious suspicion. At least that's how I interpret it.

It gets me frustrated when I think it's mostly innocent intention driving it. Because we get so clouded by it all it leads to is both of us putting on blinders, getting angry and innocents lynching innocents. I guess it's the pains of the reputation, to want to be trusted, but everyone knows you're capable of straight out manipulation.

All right. We interpret the word 'scary' differently. I refuse to start an argument over something like this. If that means I'm 'backing off', then fine, maybe I am.

[Kitanna]

I feel like Legate is going around pushing buttons today.

What "I told thee so"? I only know her mentioning Pitch on the list. Therefore, I would dare to propose that her initial dream was actually Pitch.

He is continually coming back to this point that Sally dreamt of Pitch. I'm trying to avoid just repeating what has already been said, but I want to know why he's clinging to this? Sally had it in her power to swing the votes toward Kath and attempt to save Pitch, but she didn't. Essentially she did a throw away vote on TEW.

Don't say it twice or I will start pondering lynching you. I mean, I can see you being a Wolf and happily posting this statement. So watch it, because I am watching you. No more trust from me. I don't like it how you push that Boro was innocent, while there are rather good arguments contra. Any chance the WWs are you and Boro (and somebody)?

This is where I first noticed he was pushing buttons. He accuses Nerwen of pushing Boro as the dream because they're packmates.

I see we arrived to the same conclusions. However, I suggest people also ponder my Night 1 - Pitch theory. I know this "re:" stuff is not anything big, but it might be.

But he keeps pushing Pitch. Which is just as suspicious as pushing the living Boro. Here's how I view this:
1) Legate's theory/threat/suspicion isn't without merit. Wolf Nerwen wants the village to trust wolf Boro.
2) Wolf Nerwen is trying to align herself with an innocent. This tactic rarely works in the longrun, but it may buy her time.
3) Wolf Legate doesn't want the village to trust anyone. One known or commonly trusted innocent means one less possible innocent lynch candidate.

In his next post he continues to defend his Pitch theory based on the fact Sally didn't vote for him. But he also says:

But you are maybe right. One would have to look at the votes to see when she voted and all that.

He backtracks when Greenie says something about Sally's votes.

I am not trusting my own shadow anymore.

This "throwaway" comment makes me think Legate is trying to convince us he's a lost and confused innocent.

As for proposing "ridiculous" Pitch-dreamt of - theory, I did not connect the sally's comment with his lynching. Yet I still believe he was a possible dream, and certainly at least as logical as your Boro theory, or in fact, more: I repeat, Boro was not at Sally's trust-list on the second day.

He keeps pushing Pitch. I think he's trying to make Sally's "won't vote" list more important than it was. I mean she only had two dreams before dying. Most of that list was speculation on her part, as much as anyone else's.

Otherwise, I am becoming more and more suspicious of Boro: he is really acting incredibly "Agreeable" in his later posts. As innocent, he is usually far more inquisitive, and really now he just is sort of honey-tongued. I could consider him for my vote.

I don't think so. Boro's playing intelligently, but I wouldn't call it agreeable. I think Boro is less suspicious of being agreeable and more suspicious for arguing over the meaning of words. (Ex: Legate's use of agreeable and Greenie's use of scary).

[A Little Green]

I hate to go to sleep just when things are getting interesting, but unfortunately it's past midnight again. I hope to be able to do some serious rereading toMorrow if I'm still alive; for now, I think I'll go for

++ Nerwen

again. Nothing she has said has made me change my impression of her. Additionally, Sally suspected her late on Day 2. No, I'm not saying she was dreamed of; I think it's pretty obvious that she was not. But the thing is, Sally wasn't, at least in my mind, an obviously Seer-looking Seer. So if the wolves had a few options, it seems plausible that they'd go for the possible Seer that was most likely to dream one of them the next Night. Not sure if I'm making sense, but whether I am or not it's still bed time for me.