WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And on sally...sorry my vote made you sad, but it's the quickest and easiest way I can take to try to figure you out.

That is put you under some pressure to get you talking instead of going through from day to day being an enigma.

Alas, it won't work this time, love. Today aside, I'm simply too busy.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

12 players, Mith. Glirdy dropped out, if I'm not mistaken (see wilwa on Admin thread).

Yes sorry I meant to mention that as a caveat but unless he is a member of the VF it only makes things tighter....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I like that Mith spotted Inzil's word choice, as I noticed it too. Sorry lad.

Don't be sorry! I'm not immune to suspicion, no matter how nit-picky.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Call me biased, because it's about me, but I just don't like the look of that suspicion, without it really trying to look like a suspicion. I know Inzil's argument about wolf-on-wolf votes is a normal assumption to make, and I believe Inzil said at the beginning of the day he want to find something in the Bom votes.

SO what I said would have been all right, if it hadn't been you I was talking about?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Granted I didn't indicate I cross-posted, but I rarely ever take the time to edit in a "x-post" unless it's a massively long one. All one has to do is look at the time stamps and see my vote crossed with Inzil's and wilwa's therefor mine coming last in that group of 3 is inconsequential. Inzil pointing out my vote of all of them, being the "last one" and thus "least shiny" looks like a cheap boot-strapping suspicion attempt. (ergo, makes me suspicious of him).

Maybe I'm biased, but this seems like an overdone defense for such a relatively small observation about your vote.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Oh dear, how terribly confusing.

I think it would be rather unfun if the KD did stuff purposely to die. I don't think that the plan is fool-proof, though of course, any werewolf strategy usually isn't (that is, if werewolf is enough like Mafia for me to be able to say that). And also, Phantom suggested that the Sweetheart be a turncoat and do her best to get the fellow killed. That's just wrong... from a story point of view. As to whether it's logical game-wise, I'll think about it as I lay in bed tonight thinking about evil dwarves. Not that me thinking it logical changes anything... But it would still be wrong...

Agreed. Glad we've mostly settled all this.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Sorry for "playing the newbie" folks. I really have had more to say, I'm just keep writing it and not posting it until it is obsolete. That being said, I have 8 minutes till deadline, and guests in the living room... meaning, I don't have time to write another posts in argument.

++ Inziladun

Edit: thanks muchly Boro.

Tip: Even if what you've said has already been mentioned, you should still post it. Otherwise, you look like you don't have an opinion of your own, which can be even more troublesome for you.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Hm. I'm feeling terribly out of this game, I've been too quiet. Let's see if I can fix that.

Zil, my vote for you was a case of... indecision (with a smidgen of time pressure too). I wanted to vote for both TP and Bom, but I dislike killing people on the first day (sorry, always have, I'll show more backbone toDay), so I voted for someone who had no votes, and who had not particularly struck me as a definite innocent. So I haven't decided on you yet, but that's why I voted for you. Actually, considering your retraction vote from Phantom (who'm I currently think is "innocent", though most other players seem to have termed him as evil, Forge member or not...) to Bom, I think I might trust you...

So you voted Dun based on lack of trust, rather than suspicion? Interesting.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Folwren said she would change the narration to not be from his point of view, so I'm thinking that it will be tolerably obvious to careful readers as to whether he dies. Though I kind of like the idea of the Forgers not knowing.

I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.

Originally Posted by Finduilas, to Boro

Personally, Eruhen has made it to my "trust enough to not vote for today" list. Other than that, and where you have placed Inzil, I seem to agree mostly with your placing of people. Which makes me put you on the "trust enough to not vote for today" list.

Why? Why do you trust Eruhen now? At the point at which Eruhen voted for Bom, yes, it tied him up with Phantom, but Phantom (or someone else) easily could have been lynched. And if we go with Phantom's idea of a more nefarious and mistrusting Forge, Eruhen could have been trying to lynch Bom and still be guilty.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Maybe I'm biased, but this seems like an overdone defense for such a relatively small observation about your vote.

And there's the 2nd easy boot-strapped suspicion. Come on Inzil you know I'm cooler under pressure. "AHH SOMEONE'S SUSPECTING I MUST DEFEND I MUST DEFEND!"

Since it's coming from me obviously it's going to be a defense, but I'm making the point that your "observation" (if that's how you want to down play it) was flawed because you just saw I was the last of the 3 votes in a cross-voting and determined that mine was the least shiny of all the Bom votes.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Also, whoops. Sorry, Finduilas.

Not a problem at all. I'll admit I didn't even catch the slip-up until Folwren mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Satansaloser2005

So you voted Dun based on lack of trust, rather than suspicion? Interesting.

Yes, I voted for Zil (Dun, Inziladun, whatever) on lack of trust as opposed to suspicion. At the time, I had no major suspicions, and therefore didn't want to help in killing anyone.

Originally Posted by Satansaloser2005

I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.

My point with the careful readers was that, even though Folwren wont necessarily state that the KD has died, anyone, if they pay attention will be able to tell. However, I saw from Rikea's post that others read it as Foley planning on changing her narration as of now, instead of after he died. Which, if so, takes out the possibility of what I said of careful readers. I wasn't making a judgement on anyone's intelligence...

Originally Posted by Satansaloser2005

Why? Why do you trust Eruhen now? At the point at which Eruhen voted for Bom, yes, it tied him up with Phantom, but Phantom (or someone else) easily could have been lynched. And if we go with Phantom's idea of a more nefarious and mistrusting Forge, Eruhen could have been trying to lynch Bom and still be guilty.

My trust for Eruhen began at this post:

Originally Posted by Eruhen

Plus, there's the definite downside of getting the KD before he has a chance to hint to anyone who he thinks the Forgers might be going after.

Alsø alsø wik, the longer the KD has to give hints to the NWD, the better idea the NWD has of who's in the Forge and who isn't. The Forgers obviously aren't going to attack their own, so whatever names the KD gives to the NWD are known innocents. So, between the two of them, the KD and NWD work as a pseudo-Seer. Benefit to keeping both of them around as long as possible.

It seemed to me that a Forge member would not have pointed out the usefulness of the KD/NWD connection.

[Galadriel55]

Got 5 minutes, wanna say this

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Then followed by the back-and-forth with Bom in posts #93, 95 and 96. Concluding with Inzil casting 1st vote for tp (later retracted) but G55 and Bom quickly tacked on their votes.

...

Granted I didn't indicate I cross-posted, but I rarely ever take the time to edit in a "x-post" unless it's a massively long one. All one has to do is look at the time stamps and see my vote crossed with Inzil's and wilwa's therefor mine coming last in that group of 3 is inconsequential. Inzil pointing out my vote of all of them, being the "last one" and thus "least shiny" looks like a cheap boot-strapping suspicion attempt. (ergo, makes me suspicious of him).

OK, I believe what you're saying about the cross-voting. But you - and everyone else - forgot to notice that I also crossed with Zil's vote. And I did indicate that.

Originally Posted by the phantom

And I also like that Bom and Gal55 both used Werewolf terminology. Makes me feel better about choosing her.

If this isn't the worst reason out there for suspecting me.

Edit: xed with Findy.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

It seemed to me that a Forge member would not have pointed out the usefulness of the KD/NWD connection.

Yes, I definitely made note of that when it happened. I'd say it's a good reason not to have Eruhen at the top of the list currently.

Originally Posted by Me

And I also like that Bom and Gal55 both used Werewolf terminology. Makes me feel better about choosing her.

Originally Posted by Gal55

If this isn't the worst reason out there for suspecting me.

Sorry, but you know how I have this obession with killing your RPG characters? Well, this is the next best thing.

[satansaloser2005]

Willing to vote:
Galadriel: Still reading her as Galwolfriel (and too lazy to make it a Forge term)
Mith: That post commenting on the Night still looks like a Mithillain
Pitch: More of a hunch, so he's probably my third choice
Rikae: What is up with that formatting?! (Not actually going to vote you, love. )

Will be cranky if they're killed:
Boro: Right now he looks innocent
Phantom: If he's evil, he needs to die immediately, but I want to keep him around for now


That's where I am right now. Well, that and about to leave Barnes and Noble.

[Pitchwife]

Back from walking the dogs. The Dwarven colour scale toDay, as of now:

White-Hot
(I bet you'd like to know)

Mithril
Eruhen
McCaber
Mith
tp

Iron
Boro
Zil
(too much at each other's throats for mithril)
Finduilas
sally

some darker ore
Ms Cubbies-Overlay

galvorn
G55
Nerwen

And there's really not much point in postponing it -
++G55

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

[the phantom]

Pitch- your list. Can I ask, is everyone precisely where you feel they ought to be, or has one or more individuals been shifted slightly for the purpose of good strategic play?

Rikae- if you're speaking of what I have seen, then you are saying that it was meant to be misleading?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Since it's coming from me obviously it's going to be a defense, but I'm making the point that your "observation" (if that's how you want to down play it) was flawed because you just saw I was the last of the 3 votes in a cross-voting and determined that mine was the least shiny of all the Bom votes.

As you yourself noted, you didn't indicate an x/post, and I'll admit I didn't notice the time stamp. Take that as thou wilt.

x/d with tp

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, as far as suspicions, but it looked to my like Finduilas was saying that only the ordinary villagers would pick up on it, which of course wouldn't be the case. Saying that the Forge wouldn't get it so she could express relief at their mishap just looked a bit staged.

And yes, I think Phantom has the right idea with the wolf-on-wolf theory. There's really no reason to protect one's packmates, because any of them could be out to kill you.



Leaving in ten, but I'll be back to vote. I'm still leaning toward Mith, Galadriel, and possibly Pitch. Try to dissuade me if you think it's in the village's best interest.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rikae

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

Dwolves?

Originally Posted by Rikae

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

It's not only her vote yesterDay and the last minute flurry, it's also her reactions yesterDay, her revenge-vote for me... it all adds up.
And she explicitely called it a case.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

Love you too.

EDIT: x-ed from #121 down

[Inziladun]

Let's go ahead with this for now, as I may or may not be able to get back before DL.

++G55

There's the vote yesterDay for tp, close on the heels of mine. Then there was the odd Pitch / Rikae thing toDay. And she's been voted by Pitch and Eruhen, two that I'm inclined to trust at the moment.

x/d with Pitch

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As you yourself noted, you didn't indicate an x/post, and I'll admit I didn't notice the time stamp. Take that as thou wilt.

x/d with tp

Fairy nuff, I won't harp on it at least, but I still be watching ye and that axe yer wieldin'.

[the phantom]

(Btw, deadline is just over an hour away?)

[Galadriel55]

Throwaway Day One votes are sometimes ok. But I don't like throwaway Day 2 votes.

--Pitch

++G55

But I tell you, he's evil. He is. I said, HE. IS. There. And so it TP.

I might not be able to post until after DL, so good luck, my friends, even though you all want to lynch me.

Edit: xed with TP

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Anyway, I have decided to swear fealty to Pitch, Boro, McCaber, and Mith. If by my life or death I can... No, scratch the death part, but if I can possibly save you and stay alive at the same time, I will.

I like that Mith spotted Inzil's word choice, as I noticed it too. Sorry lad.

Oh TP I didn't think you cared anymore

Hmmm ok now to get serious again,,,,

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Pitch- your list. Can I ask, is everyone precisely where you feel they ought to be, or has one or more individuals been shifted slightly for the purpose of good strategic play?

More or less where I think they belong - but you'll have noticed that the person who should go in White-Hot must be somewhere else.

EDIT: x-ed from Nilpadriel55

[the phantom]

Okay Gal55, you're just begging for it now.

The thing is, by claiming surety of Pitch and I being evil you've let me know that you can't possibly be the KD or Sweetheart in contact with the KD (since I'm not evil), and I can't imagine a simple Ordo would express such blind surety at this stage merely in an effort to save herself. An Ordo would have at least some concept of the idea that while she may be innocent she could well be painting more valuable team members (KD or Sweetheart) as evil.

It seems to me that you could be a Forge member banking on us not finding out after your death whether you're the KD and you're hoping people will suspect that's what you were and thus lynch Pitch and I after you're gone.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Rikae

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

A few things about this post moves Rikae further up the "I could vote for today" list.

The first statement is just a flawed argument. Are you saying you suspect sally because she said exactly something you would say if you were a wolf?

2nd paragraph is an interesting defense for someone who seems will possibly be a lynch (G55). I say interesting because not many are willing to defend Galadriel right now, and then Rikae's conclusion that tp may be right about wolf-on-wolf voting looks like an attempt to divert attention elsewhere. Clever switch of strategy...? I mean if we're sitting here talking about the Forgers may be more likely to vote for themselve do to the presense of the KD, it's too easy for the Forge members to feed us exactly what we want/expect to see.

I suspect the Forge has to be careful not to get another one of theirs lynched today, or that would put the number at 2 + the King's Dwarf. It becomes very difficult for the Forge, knowing if they lose 1 more and it's not the KD, because in the 1 Forge + 1 KD situation, the Forge member would not be able to kill the KD at night. Is this making any sense, because I kind of just confused myself?

And that last cryptic suspicion...I mean yes, I believe we all see what you're referencing, but in that case, just come out with it. Say it's Pitch and state what you find suspicious about it.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

And that last cryptic suspicion...I mean yes, I believe we all see what you're referencing, but in that case, just come out with it. Say it's Pitch and state what you find suspicious about it.

No, no, you shouldn't have done this. Leave it in the dark. Otherwise you're practically begging for modfire.

And speaking of which, Pitch- you didn't need to answer me quite that directly. Like I said, there's thin ice in this village. Tread carefully. If you don't, you run the risk of losing anyone that's on your side, for we are quite near to the point where I'll actually become suspicious if certain individuals aren't modfired (if things continue on the path).

Take it easy.

[Boromir88]

I would be terribly disappointed if somehow everyone lost their minds and decided it would be a good idea to lynch, Pitch, Mith, or phantom today. Other than those ones (I'd be moderately disappointed if it was sally, but that's just a personal opinion that has no reflection on the current day), seems like there's been at least reasonable and good decisions today.

++Rikae

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

No, no, you shouldn't have done this. Leave it in the dark. Otherwise you're practically begging for modfire.

Yeah, well, you know I'm not one who likes to be shushed, restrained, or if I say something wrong, *poof* I'm gone. I have no tight rope to walk, so whatever.

[Finduilas]

++ G55

I'll try to get on once more before DL, and I might change my vote, but her voting for self decided me on her.

[Rikae]

Yes, tp, I think it's misleading and I consider it unlikely that it's only partially so.

Pitch, when I say I don't think she thought so, that is exactly what I mean... not that she didn't say so. I don't trust you for obvious reasons, therefore I'm rather inclined to trust her.

[Pitchwife]

*stares blankly at phantom, blinks, is puzzled*
What the blazes are you talking about?
Apparently I wasn't clear enough, so you got me completely wrong; but OK, let's leave it at that for now. If need be, I can clarify toMorrow.

[Rikae]

G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

[Rikae]

And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?

[the phantom]

Well, this has turned into a runaway.

Eruhen++Gal55
McCaber++Gal55 (2)
Nerwen++McCaber
Gal55++Pitch
Pitch++Gal55 (3)
Inzil++Gal55 (4)
**Gal55--Pitch (0)**
Gal55++Gal55 (5)
Boro++Rikae
Findu++Gal55 (6)

Hoo boy- I seem to detect multiple individuals putting off a vibe of surrender, and I wonder if it's a very good sign, but the other half of me wonders if it isn't too good to be true.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

*stares blankly at phantom, blinks, is puzzled*
What the blazes are you talking about?
Apparently I wasn't clear enough, so you got me completely wrong; but OK, let's leave it at that for now. If need be, I can clarify toMorrow.

Is that the best you can do?

++Pitch

[Mithalwen]

OK I thought I was up to speed on this game but I now officially don't have a clue.. coffee, then knickers on head and say wibble...

[the phantom]

Eruhen++Gal55
McCaber++Gal55 (2)
Nerwen++McCaber
Gal55++Pitch
Pitch++Gal55 (3)
Inzil++Gal55 (4)
**Gal55--Pitch (0)**
Gal55++Gal55 (5)
Boro++Rikae
Findu++Gal55 (6)
Rikae++Pitch

Mith, Sally, and Phantom have not voted yet.

[satansaloser2005]

....Seriously?

[the phantom]

As far as my vote, Gal55 didn't look shiny to me after my earlier readthrough of yesterday, and she's done a couple things today to boost that opinion (see her recent suicide).

How could I not vote for her?

So really unless there is a last minute flurry of vote-changes (and why would there be?), she is gone.

[Rikae]

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

[satansaloser2005]

++Galadriel

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

Rikae, who do you think deserves modfiring? Am I really not getting things? actually, I suppose you shouldn't tell me.