The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn. Her despair is not caused by Aragorn - he just shuts a door out of it and her happiness is not dependent on Faramir. She has changed within her self which allows her to be happy and with him. She makes her own choice - she chooses life over death and with it accepts a man who loves her for herself. She is far from anti-feminist - it is a rather old fashioned feminist view that you can't have self fulfilment and a happy relationship - and frankly the Faramir- Eowyn relationship is about the only one in all middle earth that seems to have the potential to be truly happy and balanced. Why is choosing to be a healer a cop-out? Do you think women doctors in our age have betrayed the sisterhood? Do you think that Eowyn really wanted to be a career soldier?

I have nothing against a woman finding happiness or purpose in marriage, nor do I definitely have anything against women finding their place in a profession that falls within the limits of the rather limited traditional female role. However, I'm not happy with Éowyn's end, it seems a bit forced. (I admit I would probably like Éowyn's story better if it was in a book written by a more feminist author...) I don't mean to imply that Éowyn even wanted to be a career soldier, but she did have the spirit of a warrior instead of a passive caretaker which she had been all her life. I don't want to pursue this topic too much within the limits of this thread, but I'll say I would have liked to see her end up as some sort of independent ruler (of course, nothing against her co-ruling with her beloved husband ) who would take the sword to protect her people if necessary. But the healer-ending is just too lame, and too much of the sort that "a smart girl stops disobeying and takes the place she was appointed (by men) in the first place".

Mith, why don't you vote Merry now, btw?

[Mithalwen]

But she is not taking a male appointed role. She is taking the role she chooses for herself - and the greatest healers in Middle Earth are men!!! Elrond & his sons, Aragorn..the houses of healing is run by a man.

However maybe, at the risk of sounding very patronising, it takes age and experience to "get" Eowyn. I thought much the same at your age though I loved Eowyn, I felt she had got a lesser fate. Only later and after much more careful reading did I realise she hit the jackpot. It is quite clear to me that she will be Galadriels to Faramir's Celeborn (albeit a rather more interesting Celeborn ). Eowyn will never be passive and I doubt that is what Faramir would want. Far less lame than dying for love like Luthien and her mini-me.

Incidentally when she was given the opportunity to lead her people she didn't take it. She has spirit certainly but I think in times of peace she would not seek battle for its own sake. I see no blood lust in her. Her mission is to defend her king not simply fight else she would have stayed with Elfhelm's Eored.

Anyway ++Merry. He is a splendid hobbit. He is observant, curious but thinks first unlike Master Took. he is a scholar (a philologist what is more) but not a bore. He is a bon viveur without being decadent and though a smoker has the decency to do so outside. He is a great friend and shows true courage. Sam's bravery stems from his devotion, Frodo has his duty, Pippin to an extent is along for the ride but Merry has more understanding of what he is letting himself in for and still goes. Then he is a Brandybuck and has that "Celtic" quirkiness I can relate to. And he hates places that are too noisy ...I am quite one to prefer a quiet walk and a breath of air over a crowded bar at times.

I keep thinking of him as a "Spook" now.... maybe Harry. He has always been one of my favourite characters whereas the canary is fighting it out with Bombadil for most hated.

++Meriadoc Brandybuck

[skip spence]

Summing up the votes it appears Luthien, our favourite fluttering infatuation, has danced herself to a 7-6 win. It's also been made clear she can't rely on any support from Mithalwen in later rounds.

Match 12 of Round 1:

Now for a real Aman derby where feelings are bound get heated. He was fascinated by her beautiful golden locks, but was refused even a single strand of it. One thing led to another and soon enough he led a rebellion against the Gods, leading the Noldor back to Middle Earth. She came too, perhaps just to **** him off.

Fëanor vs. Galadriel

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks.

More seriously though, you may look at it from another perspective: few women can resist Merry's adorableness. For example, I even dreamt that I would like to marry him.

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.

[Gollum the Great]

++Feanor

I love craftsmen. This guy fought Balrogs.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not I. I think

++Lúthien

We're clearly a minority.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina. Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man. However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.

Yes, go ahead. :-D

The following pair is really difficult (I, too, am starting to hate you, skip). I like both Fëanor and Galadriel and wouldn't like either of them to fall out now.

Garr.

I am not one of those who think Fëanor was stupid because of his pride and its consequences. They are just an interesting trait. And an inner fire like that!
However I find Galadriel a bit boring in Lotr - it's Nerwen () whom I really really adore. Galadriel is wise and sweet and all, but somehow... I don't know.

++Fëanor

But it's really a flip of a coin.

edit: xed with Gollum

[Lalwendë]

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

[Thinlómien]

What a no-brainer.

++Galadriel

I don't like Fëanor. I know I've said I like proud characters, but he's proud to the point of being unpleasant. I can only think of two good things in him: some of his sons are rather nice and what happend to his body after his death is pretty cool. (Okay, totally wrong choice of word this time. )

Galadriel, on the other hand, is among my favourite characters ever. I like her better than any other woman in Tolkien's works, except maybe Haleth, but she's such a minor character that they cannot really be compared.

Galadriel is proud (the key word, you see ) but not foolish nor full of herself. She's very wise and has some rather uncanny skills. Or what would you say of her mind-reading and her mirror? Also, she's ambitious and full of desire to see new lands, both of which I approve of. She has also a nicely subtle sense of humour.

Furthermore, I very much like the duality in her nature. The Noldorin pride and a certain coldness mixed with a spirit that is, in the end, very gentle. Her story intrigues me and its sadness touches me: she is, in a way, the embodiment or the symbol of the Elves' leaving Middle-Earth and the fading of their achievements.

edit: xed with Agan and Lal... interesting

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.

Exactly. Well phrased, m'dear.

Originally Posted by Mith

But she is not taking a male appointed role. She is taking the role she chooses for herself

But the role she takes clearly mirrors the role she was given earlier when she had to take care of Théoden. So, in a way, it is a male appointed role.

Originally Posted by Mith

Incidentally when she was given the opportunity to lead her people she didn't take it. She has spirit certainly but I think in times of peace she would not seek battle for its own sake. I see no blood lust in her. Her mission is to defend her king not simply fight else she would have stayed with Elfhelm's Eored.

Yes, and I could imagine her later having a similar mission to defend her people, or something. She does have a sort of warrior spirit in her, after all.

Originally Posted by Agan

Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But the role she takes clearly mirrors the role she was given earlier when she had to take care of Théoden. So, in a way, it is a male appointed role.

Exactly. Well phrased, m'dear.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe.

And we don't have separate pronouns for he and she. We're all just hän. Or alternatively, men are referred to as se, 'it'.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

Don't say that!

Galadriel is lovely, wise and powerful. . .The other could easily be the master of Sauron.

++Galadriel

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Galadriel

Feanor makes cool stuff and speaks real purtty, but
as far politics and military strategy go he's dumb as a doorknob.

Btw, I wonder if they have cable tv in the Halls of Mandos. If so
it'd be interesting to see Feanor's reaction when (a dwarf!) gets
three strands of Galadriel's hair.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I'd have to go with

++Galadriel

as well. Talented though he might be, Feanor had an ego that was more than a match for his gifts -- kinda like some of my more obnoxious relatives.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her

... which should lead into a direct dismissal, right? Honestly?

---

Whom I would like to have as my friend? Galadriel.

With whom I would like to sit down and have a deep conversation of things being and not-being? Galadriel.

Whom would I trust in any matter personal, local or global? Galadriel.


Whom will I vote?

++ Fëanor

He's just the perpetator unsurpassed, the maker of great stories, the one without whom we would not have all the tensions and richenss of the history of the M-E! If all the elves were like Galadriel there would be less drama and less truth in the whole story.

Fëanor is exciting even if he's a bully and a one-track-mind idiot in the end.

[Morthoron]

A tough one, surely (I know, you're not Shirley). Anyway, these are two of the most important characters in the books (for different reasons, obviously, Shirley).

I will have to go with ++Feanor, as almost the entire Silmarillion hinges on his creations and his actions. He is despicable, vengeful, obstinate, but so were many other artistic geniuses in the 'real world'. For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').

So Feanor, the brooding master, called down the heavens to witness his folly, for he loved too much the work of his hands; and the course of Middle-earth was forever changed.

[Groin Redbeard]

Oh gosh, now it looks like going to have to vote for an elf.

++Galadriel

All the good reasons have been already said about her. There is nothing attractive about the fool of a king who leads his own people to misery. He is like a silver tongued dictator who sacrifices everyone for the sake of his own foolish ego.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').

Michaelangelo didn't despise his creator and lead his entire race into misery.

[mormegil]

++Galadriel

The fact that she gave Gimli 3 hairs is all you need to know.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Michaelangelo didn't despise his creator...

Ah, but according to many fundamental Christians spewing their version of the Bible, his creator would despise Michelangelo for his homosexuality and send him to Hell. At least Tolkien granted a measure of forgiveness to Feanor at the end of all things.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

and lead his entire race into misery.

And how many leaders profess an earnest love of their version of the creator, yet lead their race and the world into misery in spite of their avowed belief?

In any case, I don't recall Feanor actually despising his creator. Can you point to the text where that is stated?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

When I opened the thread and saw somewhere "++Galadriel" (without yet reading the thread properly), I was clear on what is the choice for me Of course, because of the sense of duty, I scrolled up and checked who the other candidate is - but I can hardly imagine a worthy competition here.

++Galadriel

And now I may as well go and read the arguments which people had for one or another here on this thread

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina. Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man. However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

So you would have preferred her to be bitter and twisted like Erendis? Or ended up alone and unhappy? Rather a phyrric feminist victory. Remember Tolkien was originally going to kill her off which perhaps you would have preferred - though no doubt you would claim she was being punished for not staying in her box . Which is usually the fate of women who rebel in he old novels I have read - Finnish ones maybe different. Women who don't know their place come to a bad end they don't marry the man who complements them perfectly.

There is absolutely no evidence that she had to marry at all. She could have said no and gone back to Rohan. Remember she goes back to Rohan to help Eomer sort the place out - hardly a conventional role. If you want to rail against conventional women have a pop at Arwen who is passive and has to be removed from Lorien when things got nasty and who will clearly be a much more conventional wife than Eowyn. You may not like the male domination in ME - I can't say I do, but it seems mean to take it out on Eowyn.


Oh I love Galadriel but bad boys are so fascinating.

++Feanor

[Nerwen]

++Galadriel

Well, duh... who did you think I'd vote for?

...But actually I do think Fëanor is pretty cool... in an appalling sort of way.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

++Galadriel

Well, duh... who did you think I'd vote for?

...But actually I do think Fëanor is pretty cool... in an appalling sort of way.

Ah well we balance each other out.

I suppose that I just felt that in the end there wouldn't have been much of a plot without Feanor and his crazy family

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe.

But not before Australia, so clearly, I win.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So you would have preferred her to be bitter and twisted like Erendis? Or ended up alone and unhappy?

To be honest, yes. I'm not a fan of happy endings. I wouldn't have minded it if she had died, either, but I don't think I'd claim she was punished for not staying in her box. Actually her death would have been the best option, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Mith

Women who don't know their place come to a bad end they don't marry the man who complements them perfectly.

Okay, that's what happens to some, but I bet there are at least as many books of a woman getting a happy ending despite once stepping astray. Learning to accept one's place is maybe called 'growing up', but I think it should rather be called 'getting tired of standing up against what one considers wrong'. In that sense, I don't think Éowyn learnt to accept her place, but she made the choice which was considered normal for a woman. She could have been such an extraordinary woman (once she got over her depression) but her end was simply boring.
And yes, the novels I was thinking about were mostly Finnish.

Originally Posted by Mith

There is absolutely no evidence that she had to marry at all.

I didn't mean she had to marry Faramir because she wanted to become a 'proper woman'. What I thought was rather that Tolkien wanted her to marry so she could become that and get a happy ending (in Tolkien's opinion - and I don't deny it is a happy ending, it's just not what I would like) as well, which is the thing that annoys me.

[skip spence]

A fairly comfortable win for Galadriel in the end despite falling behind early on. Fëanor, who will be fuming, is sent on the long and lonely journey back to Formenos.

Match 13 of Round 1:

Also known as Strider and Elessar, Aragorn is one of the favourites to win this tournament. He will be in for stiff competition against the legendary Elu Thingol, tallest of all the children of Illuvatar, High King of Beleriand and leader of the Sindarin Elves of Middle Earth in the first Age of Arda.

Aragorn vs. Thingol Greycloak

[Morthoron]

Thingol didnt have many redeeming qualities, did he? Other than a brief trip to the spa at Club Valinor and bagging Melian the Maia, he was pretty much a thickheaded and pompous git.

++Aragorn, because he was not a thickheaded git. Too bad there isn't much info on him using his Thorongil AKA.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I'd say
+ + Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's Heir, the Elfstone,
Strider, Telcontar...

Say what you will, he knew how to kiss up to his main squeeze's
father and especially her grandmom.

[skip spence]

++Greycloak

I find a hunky 80-year old virgin somewhat disturbing. Always did like Thingol too, a good and noble king if there ever was one.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This is a difficult one for me, I have somewhat ambivalent feelings towards them both. I do have great sympathy for both and at times find them cool, but they can also annoy me a great deal. . . maybe I should just let others decide this one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, Thingol was certainly a great (in the sense of importance of his person) character, but here I guess plays some role my somewhat closer inclination to LotR characters than to Silm characters (as the former seem somewhat "closer" to me, probably), and also the fact that Aragorn was a very interesting character - as I have revealed only recently. For example, I was never fully aware of his role as the leader of the company after Gandalf's death - the strongest moments actually were when he was uncertain about the future and (almost) certain about his failure - after Boromir's death. I don't like Aragorn the Returned (or Returning) King that much, but this moment makes him a lot more than just an almost-stereotypical victorious hero, or even more than just an almost-stereotypical humble victorious hero (I have in mind the episode when he enters the City unknown to heal, however I like that one, it is still a bit... well, stereotypical for me). But these doubting moments and all the time from Moria (or, actually, from Rivendell already) to Isengard are very good ones and make him feel more realistic to me. And, then, he is also the Strider.

++Aragorn

[Thinlómien]

++Aragorn

I just like him very much, especially his sense of humour.

Thingol is a bit annoying, though I grant him that he's no super-hero and thus relatively interesting.

[Aganzir]

I almost feel like voting Aragorn just because of how Thingol treated dwarves, but then again he's somewhat annoying as well, so I don't know. Neither of them is very close to me.

So

++Thingol

For the very simple reason that I have painted him.

Lommy do you have a tendency to bolden also character names?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Lommy do you have a tendency to bolden also character names?

Aieee! No. I've done a "typo" like that several times on this thread but this is the first time I didn't notice it before posting...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Aragorn

For the numerous times he's given my friends and I a laugh, imagining new and more ridiculous ways in which he might pompously declare "Lo!" or "Behold!" Thingol just wasn't as easy to poke fun at.

[skip spence]

See, this is why I couldn't vote for him. I cringe every time he draws Andruil while crying "Elendil", especially when there seemingly is no need for it, like on the fields of Rohan when Eomer first runs across them. Now Thingol on the other hand has got dignity and class and if he were to say "Lo!" or "Behold!" he would get away with it.

I also wonder just how tall Thingol was. "The tallest of all the children of Illuvatar" he's described as. What, even today we have freakishly tall people who reach 2 1/2 metres. Was Greycloak even taller than that? And Melian, how tall was she? Now my mental image of him resembles that of an NBA star on the red carpet with his in comparison tiny wife. And Luthien their child - I always imagined her as petite.

[Lalwendë]

Thingol has one of the coolest names in Tolkien's creation of course, and he's much, much more like an Elf of Faerie than most other Elves are. He lives in this wooded/underground realm with his otherworldly wife and their beautiful daughter. He sets people up with impossible tests just like a ruler of Faerie might. He's not one of those jumped-up Noldor either who return and basically take over Beleriand.

Aragorn is a fascinating figure who we really see grow into his Kingship over the course of LotR. He might be a bit of a prig at times but he's not perfect and Gandalf knocks his corners off soon enough. He was also this interesting, mysterious Ranger for many years so he's not just some 'igh and mighty prince, but woodsy and earthy.

So that's a really tough choice...

I shall, though, pick

++Aragorn

Because Thingol wouldn't stand a chance in later rounds so he'd be a wasted vote!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by skip spence

See, this is why I couldn't vote for him. I cringe every time he draws Andruil while crying "Elendil", especially when there seemingly is no need for it, like on the fields of Rohan when Eomer first runs across them. Now Thingol on the other hand has got dignity and class and if he were to say "Lo!" or "Behold!" he would get away with it.

There's a long standing joke among my friends that Aragorn is said to have "daughters" (plural) but only one son, and this because when Eldarion was, oh, maybe three or so, every time Aragorn started something with "Lo!" the kid immediately piped up with "And Behold!" Not wanting to appear abusive for smacking his son and heir when this became too annoying to bear, he simply made up his mind to have no more sons, since girls were so much better behaved.

For me, though, voting for Thingol would feel like nepotism, since I'd feel like I was voting for my husband, who is also tall and silver-haired.

[skip spence]

^Wow, you and your friends have active imaginations, Ibrin.

Behold! Aragorn has prevailed with 6 votes to 2 and advances to the second round.

Match 14 of Round 1:

Now something for the ladies: Legolas, the fair-haired surfer dude from Mirkwood, has finally entered the competition. The question is whether he will remain in it because his opponent is none other than Samwise Gamgee.

Legolas vs. Sam

[Morthoron]

++Sam.

I voted for his old man, so I'll stick with the Gamgee clan. Sam is a great character and his asides are priceless.

In addition, this is definitely a vote against Legolas, or rather, what Legolas has become primarily due to the movies. This is an anti-Orlando vote, a vote against bleach blonde, contact-wearing, wooden-acting, shield surfing pretty boys everywhere.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Oh man. . . I have to vote Legolas, because I really find Sam annoying.
Also I cannote help feeling sympathy for Legolas, after spending this long on this site with all you Legolas haters.

++Legolas