Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

Dior getting a choice is wishful thinking on my part, but not without a little bit to be hopeful for. Dior was immersed in the Elvish lifestyle was married to an Elf and ruled over an Elvish kingdom. He also choice to marry an Elf before he knew the consequences of his actions. It seems very harsh to me that the Valar would not give him a choice, but nothing in the text suggest they did.

Perhaps that's a better analogy, but your friend in question will always have some of the traits associated typically with Japanese ethnicity. Whatever, his or her nationality she will remain of mixed heritage.

[Ivriniel]

Forgot Celebrimbor. He was pretty lore-wise. Very Aule-ish he was....which brings me to some terms to breakdown 'power' and how Tolkien saw it.

When he described Feanor, he refers to Lore, stature, body-heath/athleticism, mind. (He missed personality. Feanor had a very unfortunate personality). When he describes Galadriel (materials about her are fresh in my mind, after recent review, so sorry if I'm being Galadriel-o-centric)--Tolkien refers to her as gifted, athletically and mentally, and as Feanor's equivalent in best-est-tra-la-la-lally-iests. But her assets were in other domains of mind, and so, *qualitatively* (not *quantitatively*) distinct.

Here then, is where it's very hard to say and respond to power questions.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

I've always thought this way about Dior, also.

[edit]Coz he was born after a resurrection. This all happened before the Choice of the Peredhil, and Luthien's exception was a Mandos decree-one-off, for her heroism and to acknowledge, I've always thought, great love of Beren and Luthien. I do love that story.

I forgot to add, in post prior "strength" "weapon-mastery" "emotional fortitude" omg, etc, I have a TOTAL headache[/edit]

[Mithalwen]

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

On the last point I disagree with you with. Earendil and Elwing had a swift maturity too, it seems to be a trait of the Half-Elven. They age like Men, but once reaching maturity slow down to the rate of Elves up to their deaths. Half-Elves are also seem to be free from disease and other troubles of Men.

Tolkien still makes clear distinctions between the two such as his comments about Arwen or using similes to compare Elrond with Elves. So even when the Peredhil choose the race they wish to belong there is still that distinction between the two.

As for Dior he was without debate the first of the Peredhil. He himself announces this and Tolkien confirms it. I personally and this is just personal choice, don't buy the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. I don't think there were ever any other marriages between Elves and men than: Luthien and Beren, and Tuor with Idril. Consequently it's easier for me to accept that Dior and his sons were given a choice in the Halls of Mandos and the two branches of Peredhil were united in the children of Earendil and Elwing.

Just to illustrate the point look at the description about how fair Legolas is.

'cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. '

There is no need for a simile or a comparison. Now compare that with Elrond or his sons.

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord


'they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell’.

By rank, by heritage and by might, Elrond and his sons should be Elf Lords, but are not.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Dior he was without debate the first of the Peredhil. He himself announces this and Tolkien confirms it.

Not quite. He also had quite a good splash of Maia blood. Luthien could shape change. It's not at all clear what powers he would have had.

We'll never know what would have happened to him, and how long he would have lived, were he ruler of Menegroth, indefinitely. Though, given Elwing's fate, I'm sure Tolkien could have weaved in another 'Mandos-exception' twist about Dior. Though, Mandos tended to do that only for particularly heroic, heroically-heroin-isation of the hero-est-est. Best. Est. Heroishly heroic.

My instincts warn that he would have died, a mortal life, without the heroism intervention. When you compare Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen, and that Eldar-ishness was lost easily, quickly and readily, rather than the converse. That is, even when one's blood ran in one's vein's three part elf and one part man--that was no guarantee. One way ticket stuff. Once you choose, even if you marry an Eldar (i.e. you meet someone after you choose). Too bad, off to Mandos you go.

I personally and this is just personal choice, don't buy the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. I don't think there were ever any other marriages between Elves and men than: Luthien and Beren, and Tuor with Idril. Consequently it's easier for me to accept that Dior and his sons were given a choice in the Halls of Mandos and the two branches of Peredhil were united in the children of Earendil and Elwing.

I know all the dirt on her Silvan (as Mithrellas, i.e. lesser stature and....?) She was still Elvish (there are ways the Peredhil choice is caste where its association with the Line of Earendil is not imputed)-->so this Peredhil (was still a Half-Elf) died mortally. But, my only addendum is that we don't know what would have happened if Mithrellas snatched the kids, tossed them on a Straight-Road boat and trundled them off to Valinor (sorry, Eressea). It was my sense that this half-brood leaned towards mortality, having a domineering Numenorean dad who scared his gf off, but kept the kids....

[Mithalwen]

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Sharing fully in the fate of an Elf does not make you one and nor does sharing fully in the fate of Men. The example I used prior is the case of Luthien. Luthien forever remained an Elf, even though she was mortal.

Dior himself used the term and learnt both languages, because it is what he was.

'Dior their son it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's and his mother's the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredhil (halfelve); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

On the last point I disagree with you with. Earendil and Elwing had a swift maturity too, it seems to be a trait of the Half-Elven. They age like Men, but once reaching maturity slow down to the rate of Elves up to their deaths. Half-Elves are also seem to be free from disease and other troubles of Men.

They were 29 years old when Elrond and Elros were born. That in no way indicates some kind of swift maturity, particularly when considering that in ancient eras girls bore children while in their early-to-mid teens. There is no indication that the Half-elven's maturity rate sped up and then slowed down, or that they died at all, unless you are referring to those who chose mortality like Elros and Arwen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord


'they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell’.

By rank, by heritage and by might, Elrond and his sons should be Elf Lords, but are not.

Elrond chose not to have a title that would indicate kingship or lordship, seemingly for political reasons. Although he could claim kingship of the Sindar through direct lineage to Elu Thingol, there was a large contingent of Noldor residing in Rivendell, and their kingship lay vacant since the death of Gil-Galad. Why exacerbate old wounds? Why refer to himself as a lord? He was Master of Rivendell and acknowledged leader of both Sindar and Noldor in that place.

Politically astute, really, in the same way Galadriel did not refer to herself as a queen either. Was she an Elvish Queen? By both lineage and power she could certainly make the claim (after all, her father Finarfin was still king of the Noldor in Valinor), and don't believe she hadn't considered it:

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

This would place Dior as about fifty years of age, or thereabouts, with minimum-time assumptions. I'm not sure if Elwing was younger or older than Elured and Elurin. And I'm rusty on measures of quanties (years) between Elu's slaying, Dior's ascension and the sack of Mengroth. And assuming that Elwing was about 20-25 when she and Earendil left Beleriand on Vingilot. I have no real idea....really. Is your real idea, a 'really', or a 'really' or--did I mention 'really'? I'm not sure, really. As in--really--I'm not sure about much at all.....really....truly....

Meaning--a retrofitted un-mortal-ified Dior--(for the Dior in the alternative universe that actually lived), is getting long-shot ish.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Imrahil. Beardless. Over 20 generations later. In-text citations, LotR referring to this, (Legolas). Elf-y blood. Somewhere, don't you think. And obviously more than Elendil's line, recalling that by the time Elendil or one of his brood got the hots for an Imrahil distant ancestor, whoz-its, he wasn't very Elfy anymore. Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)? This is one of the reasons I favour the Imrazor/Mithrellas citation.

[Ivriniel]

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

"....like less than half of you half-[elves half] as much as you deserve..."

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

They were 29 years old when Elrond and Elros were born. That in no way indicates some kind of swift maturity, particularly when considering that in ancient eras girls bore children while in their early-to-mid teens. There is no indication that the Half-elven's maturity rate sped up and then slowed down, or that they died at all, unless you are referring to those who chose mortality like Elros and Arwen.

I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

Elrond chose not to have a title that would indicate kingship or lordship, seemingly for political reasons. Although he could claim kingship of the Sindar through direct lineage to Elu Thingol, there was a large contingent of Noldor residing in Rivendell, and their kingship lay vacant since the death of Gil-Galad. Why exacerbate old wounds? Why refer to himself as a lord? He was Master of Rivendell and acknowledged leader of both Sindar and Noldor in that place.

Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

Politically astute, really, in the same way Galadriel did not refer to herself as a queen either. Was she an Elvish Queen? By both lineage and power she could certainly make the claim (after all, her father Finarfin was still king of the Noldor in Valinor), and don't believe she hadn't considered it:

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

[Mithalwen]

When was Beren not a man?

[Galin]

In an early version [or versions, can't remember how many times Tolkien changed his mind here] of the Beren and Luthien tale, Beren was an Elf.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.

[Mithalwen]

Oh I see, actually, Morth, Tolkien says in LaCE that Elves don't reach physical maturity until 50 and some not til twice that. He may have changed his ideas in different versions but if he didn't a 22 year old elf would be equivalent probably to a human child of eight or nine. Also I doubt Idril would have left Earendil had he not been properly grown up.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

Yes she could have given herself the title of Queen of Lorien, but that was, because she and Celeborn did not consider Lorien their kingdom by right. Rather they considered themselves as guardians of the land after Amroth drowned.
If Galadriel had founded a land by herself she may have indeed called herself Queen.

Off topic, but Galadriel's decision to never crown herself speaks very well for her humility and reminds me of the Stewards of Gondor. Unlike the Stewards, I doubt there would be any resistance in such a great and might Lady as Galadriel claiming Queenship.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.

As for Aranel it appears it could just as easily mean 'King of Elves', which fits in very well with him being Thingol's heir the Eluchil and being the King of all the Sindar.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

What in god's name are you talking about? Earendil and Elwing were born in 503, and they married in 525 when they were each 22, but did not have children until they were 29. Often in ancient and medieval cultures, a boy and girl were married, but do not consummate the marriage until some years later. Where did you come up with 11? Are you being insanely literal again?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Where is that quote? Is it in Lord of the Rings? If not, I question the validity.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What in god's name are you talking about? Earendil and Elwing were born in 503, and they married in 525 when they were each 22, but did not have children until they were 29. Often in ancient and medieval cultures, a boy and girl were married, but do not consummate the marriage until some years later. Where did you come up with 11? Are you being insanely literal again?

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.



It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Where is that quote? Is it in Lord of the Rings? If not, I question the validity.

Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

[Mithalwen]

Morth, again Laws and customs of the Eldar make it clear that that kind of childhood arrangement is not possible for the elves, though they may choose each other as children but for elves although they do make vows the act of sexual union constitutes marriage. Again I say that elves were not physically mature until at least fifty and tended to marry soon after. So by this yardstick it is clear that Dior and Elwing and Earendil were on a mortal timetable marrying in young adulthood ( very young mortal women maybe capable of childbearing in early adolescence but it isn't a great idea for health reasons, also the average age of menarche has got progressively earlier) . I concede HoME wasn't. Published in Tolkien's lifetime but then neither was the Silmarillion and it seems more valid to use a coherent Tolkien essay on the subject than to extrapolate from medeaeval history. Lace indicates that men reach mortals reach maturity two to two and a half times quicker than elves.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.

It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

Oh, I can follow along just fine, sir and/or madam, and if you care to be rude, believe me, we can play that game as well.

So, what you are holding desperately onto in such an inanely literal fashion is LACE, an unfinished document written in both A and B succession at different times and which was supposedly translated by the mortal Aelfwine? Is that it? Christopher Tolkien was quite succinct regarding the essay:

"It is clear in any case that is presented as the work, not of one of the Eldar, but of a man..."

If you accept the conceit, how then can you accept that the text is completely reliable -- unfinished and heavily modified as it was?

The Earendil story is among Tolkien's oldest tales, and one nearest to completion and dearest to Tolkien himself. Do you think he rectified his time line in lieu of LACE? Documentation does not show this to be the case. Therefore, your entire rant is based on incomplete data that more than likely would have been rewritten after Tolkien abandoned the Aelfwine character altogether. But it never came to that, ergo, your assumptions are just that, merely assumptions and not the Gospel according to Saint John Ronald Reuel.

[Galin]

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you. Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

[Galin]

Here's my fuller argument...

Morgoth's Ring provides 50 years, for some 100 years (as just noted), and while this has proved to be popular on the web, it's not the only idea Tolkien had in my opinion, nor even the latest idea he had. Other examples include:

'They' are the Númenóreans:

'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'):

Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70

This text is quite a bit later than Laws And Customs Among the Eldar (Morgoth's Ring), which generally dates to the late 1950s early 1960s.

Anyway these two texts appear [to me] to say that the Eldar grew at about the same rate as Men.

But even this is not the complete story, as there is another indication, from other texts published in Morgoth's Ring (still later 1950s however), that the Eldar, at least early in the history of Middle-earth and in Aman, matured much slower than 50 to 100 years -- and actually the notion seems to be that it took roughly 3,000 years for an Elf-child to become an adult! and possibly (based on a further text written at this time called Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) in Middle-earth (not in Aman) this rate dwindled*, meaning that it took less time to grow to be an adult in Middle-earth as time passed, suggesting Elven children reached maturity faster and faster until at least Finrod's conversation with Andreth.

This idea is wound up with possible drastic changes in the internal chronology, as well as the notion of 144 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year (not roughly 10 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year, as formerly).


It might be 'remotely' possible that all these ideas could be parts of the same idea, the notion being: a rate of growth that dwindled in Middle-earth as time passed, if the rate rather drastically altered in Middle-earth over time that is: thus 3,000 or so years very early on (and in Aman), but after time the Elves matured faster and faster, and at some point this rate reduced to 50 or 100 years, perhaps at the time of Finrod's conversation with Andreth* -- and even later, the Eldar ultimately grew at much the same rate as Men.

I think that's much less likely than Tolkien simply changing his mind however, as 3,000-ish to about the same rate as Men is quite the change internally! It was probably easier to keep track of chronology if Elves simply matured at the same rate as Men, but that's a total guess as to why Tolkien seems to have later headed that way.

_______________

*'This I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'That your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda is tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only Aman before he came there. For know it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change* [*the word change was an emendation to the typescript B (only); the manuscript has growth -- footnote by CJRT] of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.'

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (and see Author's note 7 on the Commentary)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Cellurdur, you merely want to pick and choose the mortar for your literal brick wall, when Tolkien chronologies are not necessairly set in stone. Taking Sador's statement at face value, yes, mortal children DO age faster than Elves; however, as I said before, that could mean having children in one's teens and then being considered middle-aged by the time one hits 30, and then suffering old age and dying before 50, as is certainly a known fact in recorded history for large populations of people over thousands of years.

Again, Earendil and Elwing did not have children until 29, which would be certainly much older - perhaps ten to fifteen years older - than mortals of any time in real history up to the 19th or 20th century. Don't you find it all all odd that Earendil and Elwing did not have children until 7 years after their wedding? Do you think about that at all? Or do you not think about things that you don't want to think about?

You want to base everything on LACE which was heavily emended and incomplete, and most certainly would have to be rewritten again considering Tolkien completely abandoned the whole Aelfwine story line. Yet you also wish to completely ignore Galin's quote from Tolkien regarding Numenoreans, or the author's notes from the Vinyar Tengwar which are nearly 20 years more recent and trumps LACE.

What you need to do is to drop the magisterial tone and the condescension and realize your assumptions are not set in stone, and what you BELIEVE to be true is not necessarily canon, and that Tolkien cannot even be counted on to be wholly orthodox in his own canonicity.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

Cellurdur, Galin's materials quote and cite competing materials about the subject of aging. Yours resume a focus on Morgoth's Ring. You can't esteem or weight those as the primordial uber-duber est-est, best-est, ungoliantified beauty means that Morgoth's unlighted web was what he married Manwe, which made Varda look blue, not green (because Valar don't get jealous, but bothered) and so the Silmaril ate him, therefore, Elven children age like Shelob.

You're going to have to quote competing citations. That, as I read this, at this point, is your recourse for re-validating your argument, by quoting the competing ages of the various citations, and then see what various editors, (e.g. chris, daddy's son) have to say about what this means, and about what it means when the Silmaril eating Morgoth, when Galadriel and Feanor were unfriends forever.

At this point, I'm leaning with Galin's and Morthoron's interpretations as the most influential/authoritative on the point of the rate of aging elves. Galin is extremely thorough in how he accesses and comments on matters. There's a great deal of work in the effort to quote the actual prose from competing texts. There are actual quotations, which is a lot of extra work. Sometimes, shifting in a personal opinion means having to surrender to a point, with generosity, at those times it's time to enjoy a refresher course on a matter. It's not personal.

So, whilst you're saying unlight eats Valinor's return from Mandos's undecree of Fea-galadriel's friend-unfriending, to the extent I buy your argument, Morgoth's Ring has something to say about this. But, as Galin points out, popularity of an opinion sometimes does not guarantee authenticity of an opinion.

[Nerwen]

I don't think the age at which Earendil and Elwing married and had children tells us anything.

On the one hand, it doesn't have to mean they were maturing *slower* than garden-variety mortals- marriage customs, life expectancy and so forth should not be confused with the actual biological clock. Perhaps they'd just waited so as not to scandalise their Elvish relatives...

-On the other hand, it makes them "eleven" only if you assume that the version in "Laws and Customs" was what Tolkien had in mind when he was writing Earendil and Elwing's history (or, for that matter, Dior's). The question, then is- do we have any good reason to believe this is the case? (I'm not at all sure Sador's words do count as "corroboration", since he gives no specifics.)

EDIT: in case of misunderstanding, "eleven" refers to age and is not a typo for "elven"!

[Ivriniel]

I take your point....that's the other way to get at this. I like that style of analysis, which is about making an inference, from the way the story was told, in text, as a narrative.

I haven't had a chance to wade through the narratives we have (e.g. The Silmarillion, and how the actual story was told, and what that might mean. For hints about the rate Elf children age).

I can't recall, off the top of my head, in UT, or other materials, LotR, The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales what essays say in text about elf kids. This is unlike Aragorn, where, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, text specifically says several important things about Numenorean maturation.

Aragorn "...was new to manhood, early", i.e. about 20/21, at most, as was the way Numenorean kids could/did, though they live 'thrice the span' of other Men (though this, in Letters, even has been cited at 'twice' not 'thrice'). But *in text* it is stated, "thrice" many times. We also know Aragorn met Arwen when he was around 50ish in Lorien, where she got all swoon-y about him and starry eyed, and all like "oh, he's lordly-est of lordified, look at him and how hot he is".

Relevance of this? ....of the Line of Elros... and the supposition that early maturation does not imply shorter longevity. I'd never heard of anything different to that for Elfy folk.

Certainly, the half-elven do not appear to mature more slowly. Are there any in text stories about Elf kids, and how early they matured? I can't think of any. I'm going to return to The Silmarillion and have a look....

[Ivriniel]

There's another mode of analysis available about the rate of maturation of Elves. Beleriand's history in FA is relatively short, some 500 years, it would seem.

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?) Maeglin is born in 320. Gondolin falls 510. He was 190. Definitely fully mature.

Earendil and Elwing born 503, depart for Valinor 525. This one, in my reading is pretty influential (Elwing was 3 parts Elf, 1 part Man). They didn't get to Valinor until 542 - I didn't realise that journey took them so long Anyhooz, she was 22 by the time she was on a boat with her beloved.

Dior Born 470, weds Nimloth 497 (27).

I am annoyed that significant elfy births aren't so prominent, and with the notable absence of indications of their maturation, so, we have a lot more half-elfy ideas. I'm not sure this should be taken as a problem. Wombs. Gestations. Etc seem pretty similar as do developmental trajectories.

The elfy materials are somewhat less definitive, but do have some implications about maturation, in a "not greater than" statement. Aredhel, 104 years.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

------------------------------------

On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs. The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion. Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

As far as I'm aware this section of the Narn was written in the later 1950s, thus it would not be surprising if it seems to agree with Laws And Customs.

:shrug:

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

Distinction: generally speaking I give precedent to texts or stories published by Tolkien himself. And with respect to posthumously published writings, I generally give latest date [if known] heavy weight.

But each scenario has its own considerations.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

In my opinion there is nothing else in the fuller context to change the meaning of the citation I posted above. I didn't re-read the whole text again today, but as far as I recall the growth of Elves is here more of a sidenote with respect to the rest of the text.

It's a brief, late statement, but notable.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

Yet the consideration that Laws And Customs is more extensive than something else in no way means a different idea cannot replace it, so not only do we still have both citations to unsimplify matters [not one text taken as a 'given' for example], but various opinions about how to weight posthumously published material.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

Are you using 144 Sun Years to equal 1 Valian Year? And even if you are, can we be certain Tolkien was not going to adjust any dates in the already existing annals, to help make certain new ideas work better?

And anyway the idea from Vinyar Tengwar is certainly later than the notion of 3,000 years -- which itself was written in the same general 'phase' as L&C.

I think things remain more complicated than before

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?)

Yes I dispute this; Aredhel was born in Valinor, long before Gondolin was founded and was a fully grown woman by the time of Feanor's rebellion.

Aside from that yes, it seems Elves did not mature that much slower than men in the chronologies (though 50 years still seems feasible). But then, the essay stuff Tolkien wrote often did not mesh with the actual stories.
I think he tried to give the Elves a slower maturation rate to explain why there were only four generations by the time of Feanor's rebellion and not six or seven or more.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Moreover, Idril also was born in Tirion; Turgon's wife died in the Helcaraxe and Turgon barely saved his daughter.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Moreover, Idril also was born in Tirion; Turgon's wife died in the Helcaraxe and Turgon barely saved his daughter.

Exactly, and a lifespan of 190 years is more than enough for Maeglin to mature at a pace of 50 or even 100 years. He was a fully grown adult for some 90-140 years. Tragically short by Elven standards, but still longer than most humans even get to live. If he had not been fixated on Idril to an unhealthy degree Maeglin could have been a father or even grandfather by the time of his death. The Siege of Angband alone would have been enough for at least 3-4 generations to mature and reproduce.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

------------------------------------

On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

Cheers wch. The 'beard' comment goes to the other debate. Imrahil's lot didn't have 'em, I understand it, coz they were elf-y. About the competing idea that Elendil's bloodline influenced princes of Dol Amroth....

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Yes I dispute this; Aredhel was born in Valinor, long before Gondolin was founded and was a fully grown woman by the time of Feanor's rebellion....

Cheers Orhpalesion,

That makes my comment about Aredhel and her 100 years, and making an inference about rates of elfy maturation, like Entwive wombs grow corn, because Aredhel unValinored her Eolisation, when Maeglin vomited the Silmaril...up...again...backwards

It has been a very long time since I re-read the Silmarillion--probably 15 years, and I got all tra la la lally, Goldberry Ungolients Lembas, and so, womb-ed elf children, about Aredhel

I just re-read "Of Maeglin", here's something interesting....

...but his father gave him no name until he was twelve years old. Then he called him Maeglin, which is sharp glance.

The Silmarillion, p. 160, paperback, Allen & Unwen, 1979 Edition (it's good 'n old, nice yellowed pages

Not this tells us definitively a great deal, but there was no reason to presuppose that we're to think of anything other than your 'average 12 year old' as we read this prose. Surely JRRT would have said something about differentials in maturation rates for this, were we supposed to think that Maeglin was 'younger' developmentally, than a human. Just a thought.

On an aside, I'm sorry, but how on Valinor can Maeglin be a 'Dark Elf'. The text says "he was kinsman of Thingol of Doriath!" And bangs on, several times, about Eol being proudly Telerin, cross, bothered and spitting chips about all the Noldor-ish Elfy things ruining his Telerin party. Though, he has dark hair! Ha? Telerin, and all that! Poor Maeglin, though. I mean, what chance have you got - ma is poisoned to death by a javelin, by dad, who was trying to kill Maeglin. Then, the Noldor-ish idea about 'justice' was to - um WHAT - TOSS EOL off the CLIFFS! OMG! Then, Maeglin gets his first cousin all increasingly weirded out coz he has the hots for Idril, who just gets weirder in her behaviour towards Maeglin, which weirds Maeglin out further and makes him all dark and--evil? Ha?

Sorry, Tolkien's got a few problems here. Maeglin is a product of perverse Elfy conventions, who think it's okay to toss relatives off cliffs, but who think Maeglin's a great weirdo for thinking what he did about his first cousin. I mean, Eru-have mercy! Maeglin wasn't socialised with his first couz and so, to his perspective, she's just a beautiful Elf. He wouldn't have the same kinds of feelings as would be expected for close co-rearing and growing together as children. Really! Those Elfy conventions were harsh and would have warped Maeglin, leaving him vulnerable for warping by Morgoth.

[Mithalwen]

They didn't chuck him of the cliff for nothing though did they? If the Silmarillion teaches us anything it is that elvenkings are a bit touchy about their daughters and their privacy...

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

They didn't chuck him of the cliff for nothing though did they? If the Silmarillion teaches us anything it is that elvenkings are a bit touchy about their daughters and their privacy...

[lighthearted]hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact). And never mind that just about every bloodline in Arda of the elfy lord-ified, elfy people kept interbreeding!

I mean, come on Elu, really? You ar *that* uptight? Oh my god! I've got a headache just thinking about you. Poor Melian, you blockhead! Beren and Luthien need to go to the 12th dimension with a trans-warp drive (not yet invented--you know that batwing cloak she flew as in disguise of a 'vampire' or something--pretty creepy in a way), then sings the Dark Lord to sleep, coz he's just, really, down deep misunderstood and likes a lullaby.[/lighthearted)

*pulls self together*

I do love the mythology, and I love Tolkien's style, and I will still tear up at the old tales. But, as I've aged, I grow more forgiving of some of the characters, like Frodo at Orodruin, and Maeglin, who...

*turns to Turgon* *furrows brow, and points finger* Man!--sorry--Elf!--what on earth did you think would come of ur elfy justice! You should have been much kinder to ur son in law. And as for your grandson--ah dah--u taught him 'do as I say not as I do, young man!'. Never works Turgon. So don't go getting all 'it's all Melkor's fault' about all this. You should have cautioned ur precious granddaughter to be a little more kind to her cous, and maybe, if you all just chatted about it, rather than tossing elfy people off cliffs, you'd still have ur lovely city.

[Mithalwen]

Losing you here...don't give a stuff about Beren and Luthien ( or the drip and the canary as I call them in in my more charitable moments), but Idril is one of my favourites and her judgement is usually sound. But I am confused because Turgon's son in law was Tuor and grandson was Eärendil and was fond of both, Aredhel was his sister not his daughter in the published Sil at least. And I thought Celeborn was descended from Elmo.... bringing that crucial divine Muppet strain into Telerin bloodlines...

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Losing you here...don't give a stuff about Beren and Luthien ( or the drip and the canary as I call them in in my more charitable moments), but Idril is one of my favourites and her judgement is usually sound. But I am confused because Turgon's son in law was Tuor and grandson was Eärendil and was fond of both, Aredhel was his sister not his daughter in the published Sil at least. And I thought Celeborn was descended from Elmo.... bringing that crucial divine Muppet strain into Telerin bloodlines...

hahaha

I did love reading about Aredhel in Valinor. She was a really gung-ho, strong woman, and pretty gutsy. I shouldn't get too serious about Idril, except to say, I suppose if your cous who you're not into is giving you lecherous, creepy looks, you'd be a bit weirded out. Idril is pretty awesome, you have to say....Tuor was a very lucky guy. I love Idril's heraldic device--(but I'd have imagined, that she should have outed it all--the covert themes--so that they could have ironed out Maeglin [who had daddy issues] and help him grow truer. I'd have liked to see Idril chatting to Maeglin and matter-of-factly, without being a psycho, helped out with it all, if possible, and for Maeglin to have been mentored by warm, supportive others and set straight)

Still, *points at them all in Gondolin* you should all have just talked more openly and done something else. Fools the lot of you!