Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by Mansun

I did not say Gandalf would definately defeat the WK, even though he could if he was not restrained of his full power. I meant rather that the WK could not defeat Gandalf. The Wizard's role in the confrontation was to hold off the WK. Gandalf would have only revealed his true power if he had really been forced to and had no choice, as with his battle against a foe of his equal, the Balrog of Morgoth. Even against the Balrog, the Wizard tried to avoid a direct battle by breaking the bridge at the feet of his enemy. He tried instead to hold off the Balrog.

Essex, I agree that your ideas are in line with what Tolkien had in mind, but the above post is still as good as fact.

[Gurthang]

Maybe this has been brought up before; I haven't had time to read it all, so tell me if I'm repeating someone.

Gandalf could have defeated the WK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the prophecy not say that the Witch-King will not be killed by a living men. If that is so, then Gandalf could not have destroyed him, but he could have beaten him and driven him back. If Gandalf did that, I would count that as defeating the WK, if not for good.

But there is no way to tell that he would have defeated him. He is a Maia, but in physical form. Isildur beat Sauron while Sauron was physical. But was the Witch-King stronger than Isildur? He would have to be to defeat Gandalf, an incarnate Maia. Yet the WK was defeated by Eowyn and Merry. It's so confusing.

Basically, I'm saying he could have, not would have.

Essex, I really like what you said earlier about smaller, weaker people beating the bigger, stronger people. And I can easily see the examples thoughout Tolkien's works.

1. Bard beat Smaug.
2. Gandalf beat the Balrog. (Gandalf might not be weaker, but the Balrog is definitely bigger!)
3. Gondor/Rohan beat Mordor's army.
4. Sam beats Shelob.
5. Frodo (indirectly) beats Sauron.
6. Eowyn/Merry beat the Witch-King.

It's a very nice theme to have, and I'm glad you pointed it out.

[Essex]

I showed you proof based on what Tolkien wrote, yet you choose to ignore it.

read it, was interested by it, but it was explaining gandalf's fight with the balrog, and not the witch king. circumstantial evidence.

I actually like this point, and the point Mansun states about the balrog encounter. Gandalf decided not to fight the balrog there and then. it could be a case that he didn't want the other members of the fellowship dragged into the fight, (at least aragorn and boromir who stood by him), as they could well of got killed.

but your next point (and I did miss this first time around, and is what I've been saying for the past god knows how long since this thread started) is, and I quite you:

allowed himself to be defeated by the Balrog, which, in turn, indicates that he had the latent power to defeat the Balrog decisively.

YES HE PROBABLY DID HAVE THE LATENT POWER TO DEFEAT THE BALROG AND THE WITCH KING BUT HE WAS FORBIDDEN TO USE THIS POWER!!!!!!!

Therefore he was not certain to beat the Witch King, and could also have been defeated, as mentioned in the Istari section of Unfinished Tales I've quoted above.

[Essex]

Sorry, double posting again

I understand the saccharine, comforting ideal you impose upon Tolkien's work.

So what do you take from tolkien's work? I take a bittersweet feeling, not a saccharine, alls well feeling. Many of the characters Lost a lot. I've already let my thoughts on this be known in other threads. But to say a view that the weak defeat the strong is saccharine?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

[*]Gandalf beat the Balrog. (Gandalf might not be weaker, but the Balrog is definitely bigger!)

Wasn't the book Balrog (as opposed to everything PJ) just over "man-sized?" Would this make him at most a little taller than Gandalf?

Of course it's well known that 'wings' always gives the appearance of greater stature...

[narfforc]

My friends, I think in the end you will all have to agree to disagree, this argument is going round in circles, all sides will not give ground, and though there are good points on either side, they are not being accepted.

[The Only Real Estel]

Wasn't the book Balrog (as opposed to everything PJ) just over "man-sized?" Would this make him at most a little taller than Gandalf?

From The Fellowship of the Ring:

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it...

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darknesss grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm"

The Istari could be slain, but most likely only if they were first broken, i.e. Saruman. Then they would just become as vulnerable as the WK was when his spell was broken. But it still remains very questionable as to whether the WK had it in him to break Gandalf the White. Even the Balrog didn't manage that. So its no wonder why this thread has attracted a lot of debate, as most of us are of the opinion that the WK would have been held off to retreat from Minas Tirith in the Siege of Gondor.

And as for why the WK would definately not beat Gandalf? The reason being, Gandalf would surely reveal enough of his true power to be able to withstand the WK and not be killed by an inferior, albeit mighty, opponent. I think Eru would have allowed him to have done so much as that.

Otherwise, Eru may as well have sent Gandalf as an old wisened man with no power what-so-ever, if he were unable to fully defend himself against Sauron's servants! Remember, Gandalf the Grey defeated the Balrog, and held off all the Nine ring wraiths at night. So an enhanced Gandalf the White is a frightening prospect to all, save Sauron.

[Gurthang]

That's IT, Mansun! I think you've solved it!

Gandalf, while still the grey, was able to hold off all nine Ringwraiths on Weathertop. This would include the Witch-King. Meaning that not only could Gandalf defeat him, but he did defeat him. And surely Gandalf the White could take on a single Wraith much more easily.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

That's IT, Mansun! I think you've solved it!

Gandalf, while still the grey, was able to hold off all nine Ringwraiths on Weathertop. This would include the Witch-King. Meaning that not only could Gandalf defeat him, but he did defeat him. And surely Gandalf the White could take on a single Wraith much more easily.

True, but then again Aragorn also managed to hold off five of the Ringwraiths AT Weathertop, including the WK. These foes were not so powerful as fear made them, if you had the might to confront them.

Also, Aragorn would have almost certainly been slain by the Balrog had he come to square up to this foe on the Bridge in Moria. Yet he held off five of the Nazgul all at once.

Interesting.

[Essex]

Two quotes from Tolkien in his letters book that seem to sum up this entire argument

On the Witch King:

They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

On Gandalf's elevated powers:

The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands.

So on one hand we have elveated, Demonic, powers for the Witch King, and on the other we have an elevated power for Gandalf, who can use his powers as an 'Angel' - but not in a violent way.

So in reading this, I think Mansun has hit the best answer (and the Middle Ground), by stating it could well be a stand off. Gandalf could not use his powers (usually witheld by order) to kill the Witch King, but could use these to protect the people of Minas Tirith. Therefore we would have a stalemate.

But as Tolkien himself points out, by Gandalf's organisation of the forces of Mankind, they have come to settle the score with Sauron's forces. Gandalf does not need to use his 'Angelic' powers to withstand the Demonic might of the Witch King. Mankind, in this case the Ride of the Rohirrim, saves the day. As Tolkien states at the begining of the Battle of Pellenor fields, once the Rohirrim turned up, Victory was slipping from the Witch King's grasp. Gandalf the General has won instead of Gandalf the Warrior. We have the same result in the Film as we have in the Book. Mankind, through the workings of Gandalf, has saved its own skin.

Anyway, for the last few pages this book has gone from a Movie thread to a book thread.

To take it back to a movie thread, listen to PJ's commentary on why the film makers, in their minds, 'upped ' the WK's power. they needed a real bad arsed baddie for the move goers to get their teeth into. A flaming eye wasn't good enough for them.

Originally Posted by Essex

To take it back to a movie thread, listen to PJ's commentary on why the film makers, in their minds, 'upped ' the WK's power. they needed a real bad arsed baddie for the move goers to get their teeth into. A flaming eye wasn't good enough for them.

I have to ask why didn't then PJ use Sauron in his physical form? I don't think anybody would have been too disppointed to see the Darklord come before the gates of Minas Tirith to command a final assault on Gondor, and assure victory, as the WK alone it appears could not manage this.

Though at the emergence of Rohan, Sauron too would have to retreat back to Mordor, giving an even greater sensation that the Rohirrim saved the day, rather than relying on Gandalf all the time.

[Essex]

I don't think anybody would have been too disppointed to see the Darklord come before the gates of Minas Tirith to command a final assault on Gondor, and assure victory

If this had happened I don't think PJ would be around today, and I wouldn't have seen his trailer to King Kong at the cinema last night!!!!!

[The Only Real Estel]

I don't think anybody would have been too disppointed to see the Darklord come before the gates of Minas Tirith to command a final assault on Gondor, and assure victory

At least no 'non-book readers' would be disappointed

PJ was tossing around the idea of bringing Sauron out in physical form for RotK, & I was throughly (ticked) about it.

If you don't believe me you can always look here, but beware, most of it is in the 'old format'.

Originally Posted by Essex

If this had happened I don't think PJ would be around today, and I wouldn't have seen his trailer to King Kong at the cinema last night!!!!!

So you would not like to see Sauron in physical form, and being forced back by the Rohirrim?! Each to his own, but it would have made one hell of a scene, rather than having Sauron as the watch tower of mordor!

[The Only Real Estel]

Mansun: It would make a good scene, but come on - do you think Sauron would be held back by anyone? He would basically be like he was in the Prolouge (not quite, because he didn't have his Ring), not quite as powerful but no one would have the courage to really take him on. PJ had him beating the crap out of Aragorn if that tells you anything...

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

Mansun: It would make a good scene, but come on - do you think Sauron would be held back by anyone? He would basically be like he was in the Prolouge (not quite, because he didn't have his Ring), not quite as powerful but no one would have the courage to really take him on. PJ had him beating the crap out of Aragorn if that tells you anything...

I'd rather have Sauron beating the crap out of Aragorn than the WK doing the same to Gandalf the White! Anyway, Sauron would not have to be as devastating without the Ring as you make out.

The fact is, we just do not see enough of Sauron in the film. And I don't seem to remember to many people being keen to confront the WK either.

[The Only Real Estel]

Posted by Mansun:

Anyway, Sauron would not have to be as devastating without the Ring as you make out.

As I said, Sauron wouldn't be quite as powerful (he wouldn't be flinging twenty people a hundred yards with one swing) strength-wise, but there's no telling what his apperance would've done mentally to the army.

They were outnumbered enough as it is, & then Sauron actually comes out!!?? Half the army would probably fall on their faces, and there would be no way you'd ever get the rest of the army to coordinate an attack, it'd be half the army on the ground and have the army staring in a state of shock. I don't see how they could best him if Sauron is still powerful enough to knock the best warrior there around (Aragorn).

And I don't seem to remember to many people being keen to confront the WK either

So you think they'd be more keen to confront the guy who orders the Witch-King around?

Fact is, we just don't see enough of Sauron in the films

Which is why PJ decided to hype up the Witch-King's role. So he wouldn't have to make something up on the fly & have Sauron appear.

It could have been Sauron who confronted Gandalf, and broke his staff. At least we know Sauron would be capable of doing that, unlike the WK. PJ could have done this scene, if he was prepared to do other changes to the LOTR i.e. elves coming to Helm's Deep to aid the Rohirrim!

[Gurthang]

I'm not sure that would have worked. If you take Sauron out of Mordor, then he probably takes all of his army with him. Meaning that the ending would be Frodo and Sam strolling across an empty plain towards Mt. Doom while Sauron's entire force crushes everyone else at Minas Tirith. Frodo and Sam destroy the Ring, defeating Sauron, but die in Mt. Doom, which doesn't matter because everyone else has died already anyway. Kind of a killer ending.

[The Only Real Estel]

It could have been Sauron who confronted Gandalf, and broke his staff. At least we know Sauron would be capable of doing that, unlike the WK. PJ could have done this scene, if he was prepared to do other changes to the LOTR i.e. elves coming to Helm's Deep to aid the Rohirrim!

Damn it, I promised myself that I wouldn't jump back into this thread, but you've pulled me back in. Oh well.

As far as I know there is no clear cut decision yet as to wether the WK could've busted up the old man's staff or not. But I'm not going to get into that part of the argument.

Why should we have a change like someone confronting Gandalf, & then compound that by adding another change like having Sauron appear in physical form?

And I think Gurthang made a good point, if you are going to trot Sauron out there then it had better be in Mordor, not all the way to Gondor. Sauron would've been to much of a coward to actually go all the way to Gondor anyway, except maybe to gloat if he had won the war.

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

Posted by Mansun:


As I said, Sauron wouldn't be quite as powerful (he wouldn't be flinging twenty people a hundred yards with one swing) strength-wise, but there's no telling what his apperance would've done mentally to the army.

They were outnumbered enough as it is, & then Sauron actually comes out!!?? Half the army would probably fall on their faces, and there would be no way you'd ever get the rest of the army to coordinate an attack, it'd be half the army on the ground and have the army staring in a state of shock. I don't see how they could best him if Sauron is still powerful enough to knock the best warrior there around (Aragorn).



So you think they'd be more keen to confront the guy who orders the Witch-King around?



Which is why PJ decided to hype up the Witch-King's role. So he wouldn't have to make something up on the fly & have Sauron appear.

I still think you are overplaying Sauron's strength. Most of his former power is locked in the One Ring. Yes, he would still be too much for anybody, but I wouldn't expect him to charge the ranks of Gondor. More likely, for most of the battle during the Siege of Gondor he would drive his servants and command the Nazgul before him. And when Rohan comes, he would be forced to retreat and rethink his battle plan. As mighty as he was, he couldn't withstand a hundred Rohirrim on horseback charging in his direction without the Ring.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

I'm not sure that would have worked. If you take Sauron out of Mordor, then he probably takes all of his army with him. Meaning that the ending would be Frodo and Sam strolling across an empty plain towards Mt. Doom while Sauron's entire force crushes everyone else at Minas Tirith. Frodo and Sam destroy the Ring, defeating Sauron, but die in Mt. Doom, which doesn't matter because everyone else has died already anyway. Kind of a killer ending.

I guess it's all down to imagination and opinion as to what could have worked and what could have not. But remember, there are some scene changes in the LOTR that PJ did that I would not have expected to see in my wildest dreams. On that front, having Sauron playing a greater part in the battles would not look so out of place that everybody would lose sleep over it!

[The Only Real Estel]

I agree with the majority of that, Mansun. Sauron probably wouldn't attack & he certainly wouldn't just wade in and start trying to go far into their ranks. But I'm not 100% sure that the Rohirrim would have the guts to rush him.

As to his strength, I quote an earlier part of the movies:

Sauron has regained much of his former strength. He can not yet take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of it's potency.

But it looks as if we'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't want to fill up the next three pages with us talking about this.

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

I agree with the majority of that, Mansun. Sauron probably wouldn't attack & he certainly wouldn't just wade in and start trying to go far into their ranks. But I'm not 100% sure that the Rohirrim would have the guts to rush him.

As to his strength, I quote an earlier part of the movies:



But it looks as if we'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't want to fill up the next three pages with us talking about this.

Whether Rohan and their horses had the courage to rush Sauron is debatable. But what other choice would they have had? How fearful are the Rohirrim of Sauron? If they all charged in his general direction, I think Sauron would escape for a while pretty quick.

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

I agree with the majority of that, Mansun. Sauron probably wouldn't attack & he certainly wouldn't just wade in and start trying to go far into their ranks. But I'm not 100% sure that the Rohirrim would have the guts to rush him.

As to his strength, I quote an earlier part of the movies:



But it looks as if we'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't want to fill up the next three pages with us talking about this.

I agree for once, but the whole topic is moving and down to one's imagination and view of PJ's work of ME. The topic has been so thoroughly discussed that it has become exhausted.

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

As far as I know there is no clear cut decision yet as to wether the WK could've
And I think Gurthang made a good point, if you are going to trot Sauron out there then it had better be in Mordor, not all the way to Gondor. Sauron would've been to much of a coward to actually go all the way to Gondor anyway, except maybe to gloat if he had won the war.

I suppose Sauron could have become impatient and have gone to Minas Tirith in a bid to retreive his Ring that as he might well think is possibly in Gondor, before some unknown mighty one decides to wield it and use it against him. That was his greatest fear, I believe.

And now I will rest the case!

Not sure which thread to put this question to, but here goes.

If Gandalf the White broke the staff of Saurman of many colours as he called himself, does that make Gandalf more powerful as White than when Saurman was White? One would think Eru realised the crisis behind the treason of Isengard required the return of Gandalf as one more powerful even than Saruman in order to break him and to rectify the Istari Order, and re-address the balance against the enemy. If this were so, surely there would be no contest between Gandalf the White, being more powerful than when Saruman was White, and the WK?

That is to say, Eru allowed Gandalf the White to reveal even more of his true power against the enemy than when Saruman was White.

[alatar]

Note that by the time Gandalf reckons with Saruman, the wizard of many colours is already broken. Gandalf even waits patiently while Saruman has one last go at it, in regards to the Rohirrim, Gimli, Theoden and even Gandalf himself. After Saruman shows that his power is lessened (due to the dissipation of that power in order to control his armies, the making of his ring, etc), then, and only then does Gandalf break his staff and boot him out of the Order.

This is technically okay for Gandalf to do as he is not using his powers against an unvanquished foe, the playing field is already leveled and mankind has done its part, meaning that Gandalf is not making the road to the Fourth Age any easier - no deus ex machina.

And note that I speaking about the books, not the PJ interpretation.

I wonder how old the WK was, his face in the FSOTR was that of a very old and venerable King. And yet he called Gandalf an Old Fool! Perhaps the WK is still relatively young inside even if he appears old. He would have to be old, even by Gandalf's reckoning.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I wonder how old the WK was, his face in the FSOTR was that of a very old and venerable King. And yet he called Gandalf an Old Fool! Perhaps the WK is still relatively young inside even if he appears old. He would have to be old, even by Gandalf's reckoning.

Gandalf is older than Middle-earth.

I wonder who the WK has related to prior to meeting Sauron, and what happened to them?

I have to point out that the Nazgul and Gandalf don't actually meet at all in the films until the WK confronts him in a suprise attack. We cannot therefore assume that PJ even took into account the fact that Gandalf was even capable of holding off all the Nine Black Riders as in the FOTR.

[narfforc]

As The One Ring wasnt forged until c1600 SA, and The Ringwraiths did not appear until 2251 SA, I think that Gandalf/Olorin the Maia, who was present at The Creation, might just be a bit older by the odd thousands of years.



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