Here There Be Dragons - Discussion/Planning

[Nerindel]

The reason I asked the initial question was that I was pondering the dialect of the Maenwaith in the city, I assumed that they would have some common dialect, like a trading dialect as Pio mentioned above, one which they all would have used during the yearly gathering of the clans?

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly that the rebel clans only Isolated themselves after one such gathering where Wyrma may have put through her request that the Maenwaith settle into towns and cities giving up their nomadic ways.

As to your concerns regarding Surinen and Narayad would they have known he was Maenwaith from the off set and not Haradwaith who's dialect I would imagine would be entirely different altogether?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, a trading dialect sounds good. I was just assuming that they would use Westron for that since it is widely used by all.

I would think that the clans would have isolated for a long time, at least since Sauron became active in Mordor again, but that the distrust of one another was a newer development. Before Wyrma, possibly there might have been disputes over water rights and grazing grounds but not the worries they have now.

Surinen and Narayad did not know Rôg was maenwaith until they saw him as the vulture, (since you can’t necessarily tell a maenwaith by sight), and Surinen had spoken to him in Westron.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Well, this is what happens when one has a 'guilty' conscience and is musing on other things! I had been struggling with the post between Ráma and the Eagle for several days. I am very late filling it in.

When I 'saw' Pio's initial query, my brain transposed the terms "Aiwendil and Narika' to 'Ráma and the Eagle'. I know this is hard to believe but that's what happened! I stared long and hard at the computer screen, and I swear that's what I saw....

Let me clarify my thoughts here....

Because the maenwaith whom Ráma encounters was in Eagle form, the young woman would, I think, natural ly revert to her clan dialect. The opposite holds for Aiwendil....he would use the common tongue, whether that's Westron or some trading dialect, since he is dealing with "strangers". I'm not sure he would even know the clan dialect, although he may pick it up quickly. Whether we use Westron or a tradiing dialect is fine with me.


Pio, does this help answer your question?

I was wondering if Westron was spoken as far south as Harad, but this is what appears in Ardalambion and in the appendix of Lotr. The italics are mine.

The language actually spoken by the characters in LotR, and indeed the language the Red Book was originally written in, was called Adûni, which name Tolkien rendered into English as Westron. Tolkien explains: "The language represented in this history by English was the Westron or 'Common Speech' of the West-lands of Middle-earth in the Third Age. In the course of that age it had become the native language of nearly all the speaking-peoples (save the Elves) who dwelt within the bounds of the old kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor; that is along all the coasts from Umbar northward to the Bay of Forochel, and inland as far as the Misty Mountains and the Ephel Dúath. It had also spread north up the Anduin, occupying the lands west of the River and east of the mountains as far as the Gladden Fields. At the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the age these were still its bounds as a native tongue." (Appendix F)

It seems to suggest that it was mainly the language of the coastal peoples in the south; perhaps those inland spoke another common tongue...or the trading dialect, of which you spoke. Or do others read this differently?

Ah, and I am still working on that other post.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I agree it would be debatable if the more southerly or easterly folk would know Westron. I guess that depends on how far those Numenoreans traveled. But it would make it a great deal easier to communicate to the Gondorian contingent if at least some did.

(I can't believe I wrote "all" in that last comment. I did not mean to imply all of Middle Earth!)

[piosenniel]

I would think that since many of the trading based clans moved about quite a bit (and I'm sure probably went as far north as the main bazaar in Umbar) that common trading dialect and Westron might have intermingled. And that the members of a particular clan who did the most trading or represented the others of the clan in their trading might know enough Westron to get by.

My dad was raised in the Phillipines. There were numerous, discrete dialects spoken on the various islands. Pidgin, a trading dialect cobbled from the various main languages including those of the traders who were English and Spanish speakers, was used as the lingua franca. Forms of Pidgin were also used along the trading routes among the islands chains in Micronesia, Melanesia, and Polynesia, so that everybody could get their business done.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio,

That sounds reasonable and it goes along with what Hilde suggests as well.

I have filled in half of Save #177! I needed to put in this background information, since the two women will probably have a different opinion about dealing with outsiders... And outsiders do seem to be coming.

I will fill in the rest tonight or tomorrow.

Child

[Nerindel]

I have filled my save for Kor.

Pio I know I said I would send Kor straight out after Tinar. However, in the light of Mithadans excellent post and my earlier concerns that Kor's sudden disappearance would arouse suspicion's from the Umbrian lord, and not to mention the other three that already follow! I have chosen another route. He will follow but just not right away.

I also need to know if there is any thing I need to know about the Npc Falasmir (He's still an npc right!). ie is he aware of the existance of Sc's? is he old enough to have took part in the imprisonment of those few who Sauron thought to force into his service during the war and another thing how oblivious he is to Wyrma and her intentions?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I am also wondering if Falasmir and Umbar will play much of a role in the future. Is Wyrma planning on staying there or will she go to the new city soon? It would help me to know this in order to get a sense of who to sent as Thorn's replacement or his messenger to Falasmir's stables.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I have finally filled in my save #177: the meeting between Sorona and Ráma.

To the other visitors still waiting at the door of the cave, I will try to post this week!

On the planning issues, I will get back later (unless someone beats me to it!)

Child

[Mithadan]

We have not written a history of Falasmir. He may have been around at the time ot the War if it fits your purposes. Whether he will have a role later in the game is yet to be seen and is, in part, up to Esty. I picture him as a bit past his prime and maybe a bit roly-poly.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Thanks Mithadan.

Also the Save for Surinen #190 has been filled in.

[piosenniel]

There has been an attempt on Elessar's life.

Sneaky Skinchangers . . . gasp!

[Nerindel]

I know this is late but thanks Mithadan your posts for Falasmir also helped a lot!

My save for Korpulfr #191 has been filled in.

[piosenniel]

The southern maenwaith has paid a visit to Baran in his cell.

Have to go to work now

~*~ Pio

Later edit: The post for Pio's visit to the prisoner is now up.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Be it known to all that walk (fly, creep or crawl) the Southern lands (and Gondor) that there be a traitor present in the Eagle Clan, by the name of Fador. And the discovery of the identity of this miscreant is reserved for one Airefalas of the high seas. All I humbly ask is that he be allowed this, and that Latah’s reputation remain unscathed. Otherwise have fun with it!

Sincerely,
Hilde B.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ealasaide, Mithadan,

With her last post, Ráma gave notice that she intends to dump Mithadan and Airefalas in the middle of the desert with a caravan passing by.

However, should said parties wish to continue on to the Eagle encampment, I think Ráma can be persuaded. I have no idea what you folk had in mind. However, it would be very helpful for my character if you would verbalize your request and perhaps do something to show the poor maenwaith that you have some desert savy. It doesn't have to be spectacular, just something that would put the two Gondorians in a better light, e.g., finding water, warding off a snake, whatever....

I have it on the best authority that Ráma may actually become your defender in the Eagle encampment. And if you think she is insular and short sighted, you should meet Narika and the Elders. Hilde and I have agreed that they will be even worse!

If there are problems with any of this, just drop me a line.

~Child

[Estelyn Telcontar]

And I was wondering if Kor and Co. were going to run into them "by chance" and be helpful by bringing them to the Maenwaith City - Wyrma would very much like to see them there!

[Ealasaide]

Child - in terms of demonstrable "desert savvy" as you put it... Airefalas is a professional sailor, therefore he has an entirely different set of knowledge and skills than the average desert dweller. At the same time, he is neither stupid nor easily frightened. I get the impression that Ráma thinks he is both, but if it would make her feel better to have him to kill a snake for her, then he will be happy to oblige.

Some of his skills that would translate well to the desert: navigation, weapons & fighting, climbing, knot-tying, anything to do with knowledge of or predicting of the wind. He's a good strategist and usually pretty insightful. He just doesn't much like camels. Oh, and he would also be good at being frugal with water as on long ocean voyages, one generally does have a very limited daily ration of fresh water. As far as finding a good spot for digging a well? Ya got the wrong guy.

He's a very quick study and can learn desert skills given the opportunity, but expecting him to be like a Bedouin right out of the bag, so to speak, when he comes from the ocean is a little optimistic.

Esty - I don't know what the others have planned, but that sounds good to me. Hilde & I have a subplot in mind that we have created based on the notion that Mithadan & Airefalas would end up (somehow) in the Eagle encampment. If they don't end up there then I suppose Hilde & I can adjust, but that's the assumption I was operating on.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ealasaide,

How about "savvy" without the adjective "desert"?

Some variation on the snake sounds fine -- just something to show Airefalas has quick wits and is not easily frightened as well as to establish more respect on Ráma's part. Since Ráma has had less contact with Airefalas than Mithadan, and their initial introduction did not go smoothly, that type of response by Airefalas would be especially noted.

Having Airefalas predict the high winds would be interesting, but unfortunately we've just finished with a dust storm so that wouldn't fit in well.

I am trying to start softening Ráma's attitude, since the Men will need a defender after we reach the camp.

~Child

P.S. As far as I know, we're heading for the Eagle camp, unless Mithadan has something else in mind.

[piosenniel]

Ealasaide

Airefalas has a hitchhiker in his pack! A small brown lizard - Mus'ad.

Desert Air Traffic Alert!

There is a pigeon in hot pursuit - following the sparrow, Tinar, keeping any eye on the Gondorians.

[Ealasaide]

Child - savvy on its own sounds great! I will address the snake scenario in my next post. In the meantime...

Mithadan - I am planning to hold my snake post until after you have posted with Mithadan regarding the Gondorians' meeting with Ráma and the issue of the caravan, etc. Please let me know if you would rather I did not. Otherwise, I will just look for your post.

Pio - small brown lizard has been noted! Only snakes shall be slain, no lizards...

[Mithadan]

I probably will not have time to post until tomorrow at the earliest.

small brown lizard has been noted! Only snakes shall be slain, no lizards

I have not made that promise on behalf of Mithadan...

[Ealasaide]

I probably will not have time to post until tomorrow at the earliest.

Okay! No hurry.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The sparrow has disappeared and Tinar has taken another step in maturing. I'd prefer that the others don't discover his presence at the oasis yet. Since Wyrma will be going to the Maenwaith city soon, I'd like to keep her son on the Gondorians' trail. Child, Mith, Ealasaide, I'm assuming that you will be arriving there on your journey.

[Mithadan]

I filled in my save from late in the last page. Baran has told Piosenniel what he knows. Perhaps she can now prevail upon wise King Elessar to release him before he decides to turn into a bear and tear the cell door off its hinges?

Esty, I suspect that the City is on our itinerary but I'm not sure that it is next. Feel free to e-mail or PM me.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sorry, I guess I did not express myself quite clearly - I meant that they would hopefully be arriving at the oasis where Tinar is...

[piosenniel]

Mus'ad, Nizar, and Wasim have become extraneous to the storyline - they have been exited from the game.

[Ealasaide]

Ummmm... a little confused.... Did I miss something?

I thought Airefalas and Mithadan were still at the mouth of the cavern, meeting Rama. Now it looks like we've been riding for hours and are miles away. What's the deal?

Or, more precisely, where the heck are we??

[piosenniel]

Child’s post 200:

Turning towards the men, she dispensed with any word of greeting, and urged them to make haste, "We must leave immediately before the whole city is up. There was someone making inquiries at the Cat's Paw, and I have a feeling that Falasmir would not take kindly to seeing his two Gondorians fleeing from the city. I will take you west of Umbar, where we will find a friendly caravan that can guide you east and north towards the Harad Road. That will lead toward lands familiar to you. My own duty lies with my family. I must travel south and inland to the spot where my clan awaits."

I then moved the group forward with post 201 – the group of three leave with Tinar following them, and Nizar following Tinar.

The group is heading toward (and may be near) the watering hole that Esty spoke of in post 203.


If this is not alright – then please advise and I will remove and rewrite my posts.

[Ealasaide]

I read that section of Child's post as the start of a conversation, rather than the start of movement, which is why I am confused. I was under the impression that there would be at least some discussion between Rama & the Gondorians before we moved out.

I'll leave that part up to Child & Mith, though, as it doesn't make that much difference to my character. At this stage, he is just going where his captain tells him to go. I suppose snakes that need slaying can be lurking anywhere...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ealasaide,

Please check your pms and let me know if this will work.

~Child

[Ealasaide]

Child~
That will work! Thanks!

[Child of the 7th Age]

We are at the oasis and here is the lovely fellow who is visiting us:

Sand viper

Cerastes vipera

Description: Usually uniformly very pallid, with three rows of darker brown spots

Characteristics: A very small desert dweller that can bury itself in the sand during the day's heat. It is nocturnal, coming out at night to feed on lizards and small desert rodents. It has a short temper and will strike several times. Its venom is hemotoxic.

Habitat: Restricted to desert areas.

Length: Average 45 centimeters, maximum 60 centimeters.

Distribution: Northern Sahara, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Nigeria, Chad, Somalia, and central Africa.

P.S. Hemotoxic isn't in any of my dictionaries, but I assume it has something to do with me bleeding to death. Somebody better hurry!

*********************************************

Addenum : I received a kind note from Imladris who'd read the discussion thread and came up with the following explanation off the internet regarding "hemotoxic"....

Hemotoxic venom attacks the circulatory system and muscle tissue causing excessive scarring, gangrene, permanent disuse of motor skills, and sometimes leads to amputation of the affected area.

[Ealasaide]

Thanks for the detailed info, Child & Imladris! That will be very useful.

[piosenniel]

Baran has now been sprung.

First sighting of Tattered Star to follow this evening. ( make that Monday in the a.m.)

[piosenniel]

The Lonely Star should reach Harlond within two and a half days.

Faragaer's vessel is following in her wake.

[Mithadan]

I have added a post to clarify what transpired between Ráma and Mith and Airefalas when they reached the caves. That post can be found at #201 of the RPG thread. Sorry for the delay.

I believe that everyone is now finally up to date and operating at the same time in the game thread.

[Ealasaide]

"Ding-dong the snake is dead
Which old snake? The wicked snake!
Ding-dong the wicked snake is dead..."

heehee... But seriously, folks, I have filled my save #208.

Also, I just wanted to let you know that I will be away from home from Wed, May 19 to Sun, May 23. I probably won't be able to post as quickly as usual, but since I am visiting my old high school buddy (Class of '81) and fellow BD'er Hilde Bracegirdle, I'm sure I will be checking in with the threads pretty regularly. I should be back on my regular schedule by Monday.

[Nerindel]

Sorona clacks her beak in disguist such a waste of a good meal!

but a very nice post Ealasaide!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Mithadan & Ealasaide,

Both the posts look great.

Then, again, I can't imagine why anyone would be referring to my character in such a way!

except that everything in the desert seemed to have either fangs, spines, or thorns...including their guide Ráma.

Unless someone has other preferences, I'll prepare a post where Ráma will somewhat reluctantly accede to Mithadan's request. Then I'll "time condense" to take us all the way to the outskirts of the Eagle camp. If there are any problems with this and you have things you'd like to do en route, please let me know by tomorrow morning since I hope to put the post up then.

I am going to try and figure out the likely length of such a trip by looking at Fonstead and calculating the distance. If anyone already has figures on this, let me know.

Pio - I believe you once mentioned that the Umbar storyline was chronologically "behind" that of Gondor. How large is that gap now? And how quickly would you prefer we "make up" that difference?

Today, I will post a short conversation where Ayar speaks to Narika regarding her wedding and asks her to approach Thorn and go ahead with their plans while she is still here with them. Hilde -- I will try to make the request vague enough that you could actually do a later post between Narika and Thorn, or we could simply mention later that Thorn gave his assent to this. Let us know which way you'd prefer to handle that.

And, again, if there are any problems with any of these plans, just let me know.