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#201 |
Wight of the Old Forest
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They got Tom Shippey working on this? There's still hope...
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#202 |
Laconic Loreman
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Indeed. It appears hes representing the Tolkien Estate to make sure Amazon follows the copyright agreement, which is more strict than I realized.
They're limited to strictly Second Age material and if it's an event that Tolkien wrote about they can't alter the canon. They'll still have to invent a lot of characters and names to fill in gaps in the timeline. But I'm now expecting something closer to the LOTR movies adaptation and not The Hobbit. The LOTR movies had a bunch of problems of course, but I've always felt on the surface, it was Lord of the Rings. There was little to no depth, scratch the surface and it wasn't Lord of the Rings anymore, it was PJ's "interpretation." The Hobbit movies were straight up fanfic that I didn't recognize any of them belonged in "Middle-earth." So it appears they won't be able to do something like smush together several hundred years of history, like in The Hobbit where they have the Azog surviving the Battle of Azanulbizar and being at the Battle of Five Armies. Which thankfully means, I don't think there could be any Legolas appearances, or you know something like Haldir showing up in Numenor with a company of Elves (since Legolas and Haldir are Third Age material). ![]()
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#203 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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#204 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Since they are elves, it could be argued that they might have been alive in the Second Age...
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#205 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Not any more, apparently: REPORT: Amazon's Lord of the Rings Parts Ways With Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#206 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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It can be assumed that he objected to the inclusion of all the bordellos.
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#207 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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#208 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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#209 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Well drat. (The news about Shippey leaving the project.)
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Yes, they could make the argument, they're Elves and therefor 'could' be alive in the 2nd Age. But my understanding is since Legolas and Haldir don't appear in the canon of the 2nd Age material at all, so they can't be added in. Elrond and Galadriel do are specifically mentioned to be involved in the 2nd age events, but not Legolas. Although, they can invent new characters. I don't think there would be any stopping to just cast Orlando Bloom as "Les-galad" the son of Gil-galad. ![]()
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#210 |
Gruesome Spectre
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My understanding is that they can do pretty much anything that doesn't contradict the established canon. There's quite a bit of leeway there for GoT envy to play.
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#211 | |
Wight
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I don't know about this next bit, but I would assume that "can do anything" is defined in such a way that "if we catch you doing anything like what happened with the Hobbit movies, even if it doesn't contradict canon, we're pulling the plug" is something that can be done.
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#212 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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This is looking worse and worse and worse. Now we hear of JJ Abrams' (indirect) involvement, doubtless advising the completely inexperienced showrunners...
And then there's the casting call for extras "comfortable with nudity," together with the hiring of an "intimacy coordinator." This will be to Jackson's movies what Caligula was to I, Claudius. https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...ke-on-tolkien/ ![]() [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM4x__ZzeOg[/media]
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#213 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#214 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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#215 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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No money in it.
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#216 |
Gruesome Spectre
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What's sad is really not so much that Amazon could feel the need to sexualize something Tolkien-based, but that they're likely right that a large portion of potential viewers may both expect and desire that.
I've so often felt I was born in the wrong time.... ![]()
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#217 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Isn't that at least a little bit of a requirement for being a Tolkien fan?
You know...one might have hoped that the ignominious and universally reviled way in which Game of Thrones ended might have put the kibosh on further larks of this nature. Yes, I realize too much money had already been sunk into the venture.
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#218 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Maybe it's only going to be used in some way evocative of the decadence of Númenor in the days of its fall?
![]() No, I guess the producers (perhaps accurately) believe that, these days, because of GoT, in the minds of the general public, fantasy fiction = nudity. Regardless of any other content. This is going to make Peter Jackson's often broad approach look restrained I suspect.
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#219 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Quote:
rotflmao!
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#220 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Of course, they probably feel they can also run wild with the other Men in Middle-earth who had more of Sauron's influence.
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#221 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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If this series ever gets to the last days of Númenor and the end of the Second Age, it certainly won't be in Season 1, which is what they're filming now.
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#222 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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The Merry Wives of Gil-Galad..?
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#223 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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TORn has provided what they describe as the official synopsis, though it doesn't really meet that definition to my mind:
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-"they confront the long-feared re-emergence of evil to Middle-earth." I take this to mean that the show definitely starts before the forging of the Rings, with everyone's pal Annatar. -"Kingdoms rose to glory and fell to ruin." Which kingdoms are we going to see rise and fall? Not Lindon and Numenor - they were already risen very early in the Second Age. I would laugh if it's referring to Sauron's kingdom - hey, it's accurate! - but my guess is they're planning to show the founding of Ost-in-Edhil. -"Unlikely heroes were tested". Um... who? The only possibility I can come up with is Isildur (based on his early characterisation as a doubter), but he can't be Season One, surely? Another option could be Elrond... I guess... if you re-characterised him a lot. -"hope hung by the finest of threads". Not... in the mid-Second Age it didn't. Hope for the Eldar, maybe, but even if Sauron had taken Lindon and claimed the Three, Numenor and Mirkwood wouldn't have seen any change. -"an ensemble cast of characters, both familiar and new". Does this mean 'original and canon characters' (we knew that), or does it mean 'Third Age characters and purely Second Age ones'? If the latter, it implies that Galadriel and Elrond will be playing substantial roles, since they're the only characters familiar to movie fans who are really around in the 2A. -"From the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains..." Khazad-Dum confirmed! -"...to the majestic forests of the elf-capital of Lindon..." Now that's a weird artistic choice. If you're trying to highlight that this isn't the Third Age, why would you set Lindon in a forest, like Lorien? Oh... unless you just think 'elves = trees'. -"...to the breathtaking island kingdom of Númenor..." We knew that. ![]() -"...to the furthest reaches of the map." That's got to be Umbar, right? The only other option is those mountains in the east (Tolkien's mountains which shouldn't exist), which would imply... evil dwarves, maybe? Overall, this is basically what you'd write if you were told nothing but "It's the Second Age". Still no actual information. hS |
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#224 |
Laconic Loreman
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I'm not sure what we're all worried about, it's not like the AUJ didn't have nudity. At least if you count the Extended Edition of it. You can catch a long distance shot of some CGI dwarf butts for about 5 seconds as they publicly bathe in Rivendell, in front of the disapproving Lindir. Can you believe that prude?
Anyway, it's a low standard to pass, any nudity that's not CGI naked dwarves bathing will be a positive for the series.
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#225 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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#226 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Liberal European at loose here but... I wouldn't worry about nudity per se. Maybe we're in Númenor and we see Uinen (or Ossë) and they are depicted in the classical tradition of naked merfolk. Yes, I'm sure we'd all like something more imaginative, but it could be something as simple as that. Or maybe they're going to show some ghastly rite in Sauron's temple with a human sacrifice who happenes to be... naked. There are plenty of reasons to show unclothed bodies and not all of them are gratuitous.
That being said, it is of course entirely possible and maybe even probable we will have "unnecessary" sex scenes. Personally I don't mind those if there is a reason from the storytelling point of view. If we're going to delve deeper into the lives and relationships of Second Age characters, sex would likely be an important part of some people's relationships with each other. Just saying. (Not to mention that there's a big difference between "implied sex scene with brief nudity" and a long and explicit scene that would likely feel very un-Tolkieny...) But I agree that I would loathe to see the Game of Thrones style sex scenes just for the sake of sex scenes, like that godwaful scene with Petyr Baelish monologuing about his past while two prostitutes have sex in the background. Possibly worst writing/ direction ever. Not to mention that I certainly do not want to see any depictions of sexual violence, especially not ones framed in a titillating way. That's just repulsive, and should not be put in a Tolkien adaptation. That being said, I'm very curious about the show, and while I don't really want it, I'm looking forward to coming the 'Downs to dissect it every week with my fellow wights when it starts airing. ![]()
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#227 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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![]() I really don't have much interest in the show, myself. I have serious doubts that watching it would do anything to enrich my appreciation of the books, and to me, that's what it's all about. They certainly are going all-out with spending money on it, but bitter experience tells me that's by no means a marker of a good product.
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#228 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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In my opinion it got substantially worse from there. Of course, I could be justly accused of not knowing what I'm talking about since I gave up on that show in Season Two...but I've heard. ![]()
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#229 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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And actually, I think I mainly won't mind giving this show a try at least. What would bug me most is if people will insist that it's "based on Tolkien", when it can't even be said to be Tolkien-inspired without a stretch. The favourite argument, it's all in the "appendices". The unfinished part of Unfinished Tales, you know.
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#230 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
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We all come into the world naked and leave it naked, so what's the fuss? As long as it's well written anything goes. (Not that I'm getting my hopes up too high on that account.) Maybe we'll even get treated to some Annatar/Celebrimbor slash? ![]() Or maybe the series is just going to delve into the married lives of Aldarion & Erendis, or Pharazon & Miriel, which may well involve some casual nudity, nothing worth getting our knickers in a twist.
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#231 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Of course, as has been mentioned by several others, I was expecting a temporary surge in activity from The Hobbit films and that just never happened. In my opinion, it never happened because The Hobbit films just weren't that entertaining. The Lord of the Rings films you got a marmite reaction to that a lot of people either really loved or really hated them. And I will defend the LOTR movies from the naysayers to this day. ![]() The amount of money going into the series doesn't indicate to me if it will be good or not, but I do feel like the creators are taking their time with it, which is a bigger indicator. The Hobbit had a director change part way through and then the studio wouldn't give an extension on the release date, which made definitely Desolation of Smaug and The Battle of Five Armies rushed. You can just tell even in the editing process, they rushed it and didn't take the same time and care as they did with the LOTR trilogy.
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#232 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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The first is that there seems to have been an expectation that, it being HBO, they had to have nudity and casual sex in the show to establish the audience. The second is that I fear that same expectation will be in place for the Amazon show (even though that is not HBO) because the trope now seems to have been codified, and reinforced by The Witcher that fantasy TV shows must come with nudity and casual sex as a de rigueur part of the offering. Quote:
Although, I also feel quite vindicated because I called Dany's ultimate storyline trajectory years ago. ![]() EDIT: Also there was the factor of the show ultimately running out of source material, and there seems wide consensus that the show got worse after that point. Quote:
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 04-17-2021 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Added additional point. |
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#233 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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That was just COVID.
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#234 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
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This video made me even more pessimistic about Amazon's series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSU9waCPMX4
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#235 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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What is dismaying, however, is that by comparison PJ, who savaged Tolkien's works with reckless abandon, is now being held up as the epitome of honoring Tolkien. What a sick world we live in.
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#236 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If the show does "fail" by some measurable standard, which I actually think it will, it will be because of over-investment, poor marketing, a lack of interest among the viewing public and the over-saturation of streaming service options.
Personally even if it weren't for the fact that I don't want to watch some dubious reinterpretation of Professor Tolkien's writings, I certainly have no intention of subscribing to a streaming service owned by Amazon, one of the most evil and exploitative corporations in the world today.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 05-26-2021 at 03:53 PM. |
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#237 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I think beyond any of those, it will fail due to clueless showrunners and hack writers. It will be, to borrow from Douglas Adams, something almost, but not entirely, unlike Tolkien.
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#238 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Personally, I was going to watch the series (subscribe to a streaming service? Not if I can avoid it) - ignoring the Tolkien connection and just seeing what they come up with. Once it's out, I'm happy to give it a try on behalf of the lot of us Downers and then bring back report. Though, if anyone is expecting Tolkien, I rather fear they might be disappointed.
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#239 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I can't imagine how it will possibly work in an artistic sense, admittedly, but I'm sure (as it always does with these things) it will initially be touted as the best thing ever made and then the pendulum will swing the other way and it will become the worst ever. Or maybe it will trip straight out of the gate. I suppose only time will tell.
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#240 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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What I get from these books I can find nowhere in contemporary culture, and with the current rush to dump everything older than ten years for the ideal of "progress", I am not at all hopeful the show would have anything for me to appreciate.
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