Lonely Star: Fanfiction/RPG discussion - Page 6 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 02:18 PM

Mith, I think you should reread that section in Morgoth's Ring on Elvish marriage. I don't think an elf would be ahead of ceremony. And if Mith and Pio did the quiet, eloping-sort of marriage that Tolkien describes as an option-- meaning, that the conjugal act constitutes the marriage ceremony-- they would have announced it (I think at the latest, the next day) and Daisy would have lost her roommate anyway. Mith and Pio would already be married and there'd be no need for further ceremony.

Rose Cotton · 09-26-2002, 02:27 PM

I share your pain Pio. You should dump that man just for that horrible joke. You know I think Angara was right about him. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Bêthberry · 09-26-2002, 02:39 PM

Well, heck, the community that plays together stays together. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I just didn't think elves could get pregnant that easily or that quickly at that age. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 02:50 PM

They usually got pregnant in the spring; I have no idea what season it is. But the elvish rules and customs about marriage are quite clear. The conjugal act, if performed without prior ceremony, BECOMES the ceremony. So-- they're officially married. And they should have-- would have-- announced it as a courtesy to their shipmates.

Daisy needs a new roommate.

Rose Cotton · 09-26-2002, 02:58 PM

Daisy can go stay with the hobbrim. Or, if you guys like the idea, I don't have a roommate either.

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 03:07 PM

Seriously, people. I realize that I'm incredibly naiive. But I thought that Pio was in Mith's room watching over him because of his headache & whateer "black breath" type effect he got from the conflict with Sauron, and that likewise Mith watched over Pio because she had been out in the rain and he just wanted to sit by her.

So, laugh at me for a naive idiot; many do.

But if they'd gotten close enough for her to conceive, they should have annouced it back then.

Bêthberry · 09-26-2002, 03:13 PM

Helen, my dear Helen,

You haven't been reading enough Victorian novels. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I recall a passage about an elbow in I think it is Mill on the Floss that ....

Bethberry

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 03:15 PM

I doubt Tolkien read many of them.

He'd be rolling in his grave.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Rose Cotton · 09-26-2002, 03:21 PM

Well I don't think I'd hurt for Pio and Mith to have thier oun version on a relationship.

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 03:26 PM

Tolkien clearly wrote down, from the point of view of the Eldar, what the rules about marriage are. See HoME, Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs among the Eldar. We've gone to huge effort to make this story as historically accurate as possible, as canonically correct as possible. Why neglect the laws of marriage?

Child of the 7th Age · 09-26-2002, 03:38 PM

Yes, Tolkien definitely said that about Elvish unions. In lieu of a ceremony, two Elves are definitely married after the physical act takes place.

Only, I'm human, and it doesn't seem right unless they get up there in front of us and make pledges to each other and exchange rings. Plus, only one-quarter of this union is Elvish. Half is big person, and one-quarter hobbit. And, as far as I'm concerned, that hobbit quarter's not hooked until they go through the proper steps.

sharon

Rose Cotton · 09-26-2002, 03:44 PM

LOL Child. So what's the problem? If you bothered to read, Mith's already getting Pio's ring ready.

Child of the 7th Age · 09-26-2002, 03:45 PM

Mithadan --

I fear everyone may be hurling stones at you. But Cami would like to thank you. I finally have my heart's desire: to be a prophet and seer like my distant cousin Frodo Baggins.

I refer to my quotation from our discussion this morning:

Quote:

Hey, you two better get hitched soon. This is supposed to be a "family" oriented website.

Ahem, it appears that Cami properly predicted the fate of our RPG!! And I finally "pushed" you to do the proper thing --go dig out that ring!

Camelia Goodchild

***Mithadan*** · 09-26-2002, 04:10 PM

For the record, Mithadan is a mere mortal man, ignorant of the ways of the Elves regarding marriage and, likely, many other matters as well. Mithadan's puppetmaster has read Customs of the Eldar, but, also being a mortal man, forgot the details (though I recall the part about exchanging rings or gifts).

I assume that Piosenniel, as she commented earlier, realizes that Mithadan is a bit of a simpleton on these matters and did not push the point. Also, I'm not sure that she would be constrained to follow Elvish custom outside of her own kin.

Helen, would the exchange of gifts satisfy you, now that Mithadan has come to his wits? If you insist, I will change things around somehow. I wouldn't want anyone to be angry that we have deviated from the proper course at this point.

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 04:30 PM

Is it possible to backfit the exchange of gifts closer to when the romance blossomed and Pio declared her commitment to Mithadan? She made up her mind strongly enough and would not be deterred, I personally see no reason not to exchange gifts at that point.

The advantage of that would be that Pat's post about the twins can stand as written. The post about Mithadan's introduction to the twins was a stunningly beautiful post, and I would be very happy to see it stand exactly as written. (Okay, I could/ should also say that as a reader, having now been introduced to the twins I am loathe to put them on hold for any reason. They are lovely. )

in the meantime, Olive branch accepted, and respectfully kissed and returned, Mith. Thank you.

***Mithadan*** · 09-26-2002, 05:48 PM

I'll reread that section of Customs this evening and see what I can do to satisfy Elvish customs at some appropriate point earlier in the story. No olive branch need be offered back. Glad to do it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 09:24 PM

Another point to consider:

Mithadan is a man of Numenorean descent, proud of it, and one who tries to maintain his honor in it.

He's also one who constantly reminds his crew about responsibility, chain-of-command, and The Captain Being Responsible for the actions of His Crew.

If in spite of all that, he could, under duress, shrug all that off, and say to himself, "Well, regardless of the societal norms this will flout; regardless of what kind of impact this will have on my crew's respect for me; regardless of what effect this has on morale; regardless of what effect it will have on my crew to realise that I have flouted the conservative societal rules that hobbits, men, and elves grow up with in Middle Earth-- well, nevermind all that. Maybe on a ship this small nobody will notice. And if they do maybe it won't matter."

He's not that much of a wymp. He would have stood his ground, and insisted on maintaining his crew's respect for him.

Piosenniel might not have worried about the rules. Mithadan would have. He's always tried to maintain a tight ship, and he's not about to lose his (conservative) crew's respect. He would fight to keep it.

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 09:39 PM

Who said anything whatsoever about renouncing? "Wait til we exchange vows" is hardly renouncing. Is she comitted to him, or not?

Child of the 7th Age · 09-26-2002, 09:59 PM

Cami creeps in where others wisely fear to tread..... Here goes.

Step back and take a deep breath. Perhaps you may not be as far apart as you think.....

The things that Pio has put on her thread suggests to me that Pio and Mith have indeed made a unique commitment to each other, a relationship that we today would indeed call a union or marriage:

Quote:

The character who is now returned to the story is by far a more mature thinking person with the capacity for real commitments and for genuine love...

Her dawning affection/love for Mithadan will awaken her to the physical, emotional, spiritual layers of authentic commitment

This was not a young elf maiden with the luxury of parents to see her through this dawning love and guide her with their wisdom during a luxuriant year of betrothal. Hers are not the easy circumstances of Rivendell or Lothlorien when she is faced with these decisions, but the everpresent battlefield of Light and Darkness. Having died once by mischance, life is more precious to her. And now, having made that decison to join her courses to Mithadan's and, in so doing, choosing mortality for herself, life becomes even more precious as she realizes how fleeting it will be with him.

In her eyes they have achieved the marriage state.

It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete.(Morgoth's Ring, p. 212)

This part is me: According to Morgoth's Ring, there is only one thing required to achieve that Elven union. I have indicated in italics the words that I feel are critical

Quote:

In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another, without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. (Morgoth's Ring, p. 212)

Why can we not then approach it from this angle?

1. Pio as the creator and writer for her character has the right to develop that character as she sees fit, whether or not I or anyone else totally agrees with the way she has done so (and of course the vice versa holds true for any character that I or someone else develops.)

I think the above holds as long as the guidelines of the Downs are adhered to and, laying aside Mith's "joke" (GROWL!), I think that nothing has been said or written which goes outside those guidelines. What we are talking about here is a matter of personal discretion, personal beliefs, and courtesies----not rules. And, inevitably, when we write as a group, differences on this level will occur.

Suggested Course : Could we not then have all of Pio's writing hold fast--no change or deletions -- but merely add the following 18 words in the recent scene where Mithadan resolves his conflicts and inconsisencies? These words are as follows: "Then Mithadan and Pio exchanged blessings and undertook the naming of the name, in accordance with hallowed (or ancient??) custom."

Pio -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you essentially said this was in accord with Pio's new sense of commitment as well as the realistic fact that she was an "orphan" (Where's Bird when I need her?) and out in the middle of the ocean with no Elvish community at hand.

Helen-- According to Tolkien, this would constitute a legitimate Elvish union. I may be wrong, but I remember thinking when I read the Silm that this was how Beren and Luthien did it (by inference).

Any possibility of this working?

Cami

p.s. The line forms to the left for hurling tomatoes.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Birdland · 09-26-2002, 10:18 PM

Babies! Oooooh, babies! Hi, babies! Auntie Birdie's gonna spoil you, yes she is. She'll get you little dwarf toys, and cute lil' matching outfits...and ponies!

But Auntie Birdie doesn't babysit, or change lil' Half-Elven didies. Gotta draw the line somewhere. We'll leave that to Angara.

Quote:

Piosenniel might not have worried about the rules. Mithadan would have. He's always tried to maintain a tight ship, and he's not about to lose his (conservative) crew's respect. He would fight to keep it.

Hey, Auntie Birdie could care less. She's just glad she's not Elven, or else she'd be considered a bigamist.

mark12_30 · 09-26-2002, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Helen-- According to Tolkien, this would constitute a legitimate Elvish union.

Of course it would.

I still think they (or at least, Mith) would have informed the crew, rather than leave everyone guessing and wondering, aboard such a small ship.

Child of the 7th Age · 09-26-2002, 11:31 PM

Helen --

Posibly, but maybe not. I'm not sure if these two particular characters would have done this immediately.

Certainly, if Cami had made such vows, she would have yelled it from the highest rooftop!

But both of these characters are, in my opinion, very different. They are very reserved, and value their privacy. And on such a small ship, privacy must be hard to come by. That is one of the things that struck me even in contrasting Pio's situation with my own in the camps. She had no woods to get away to and take quiet walks. Everywhere she looked, people were watching her every move.

Mithadan's character is quite reserved and sometimes enjoys being "mysterious" (or so I see him.) There have been many times in the story when I wasn't really sure what he was thinking, and I believe that was intentional.

Pio's character has been even more like this. Pio herself admits that, for the beginning of the story, the Elf tended to be "manipulative" and was only slowly learning to grow beyond that. Again and again in the plot she's had many "secrets". Going off to see Levanto and not telling folk where she's going is only the latest example.

Looking back on Cami's relationship with Pio in the story, I don't think Pio or Mithadan would ever make a "public" anouncement. Pio would have asked me to come to her cabin and talk privately. Then I would spread the word to the rest of the hobbits (unless she told me it was a secret).

sharon

Birdland · 09-26-2002, 11:35 PM

Birdie's got a shotgun, if that will help. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Oh, wait a minute. Firearms = NON-CANON. Guess we could make it a "bow and arrow wedding."

Birdland · 09-26-2002, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Looking back on Cami's relationship with Pio in the story, I don't think Pio or Mithadan would ever make a "public" anouncement. Pio would have asked me to come to her cabin and talk privately. Then I would spread the word to the rest of the hobbits (unless she told me it was a secret).

Ahem...So what? Birdie's just suppose to say, "Gee, Pio. Putting on a little weight these days, aren't you?" [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Child of the 7th Age · 09-27-2002, 12:03 AM

Of course, I would tell Birdie too. But I think Pio would have called you in at the same time as me, or in a separate meeting so I wouldn't have to tell you! Cami

Birdland · 09-27-2002, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Pio wants a big wedding ceremony and a reception with something other than fish as the main course!

Birdie stands in front of sea cows, arms outstretched: "Fish is good for you!"

Geez, does the whole "Lonely Star" have insomnia tonight?

Rose Cotton · 09-27-2002, 04:50 AM

Wow. I leave you all for one night and I come back to find this?

The question is, are we all going to get to see the babies. I have a feeling that the Lonely Star crew is not gonna stay together for another 9 months.

***Mithadan*** · 09-27-2002, 07:15 AM

Helen, Pat and I will caucus privately about this matter. We will bring others into the discussion if needed. Until then, this thread is closed temporarily pending character and plot adjustments.

***Mithadan*** · 09-27-2002, 01:05 PM

Open for business again!

Bêthberry · 09-27-2002, 01:10 PM

And do I get to host the showers--wedding or baby or both? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

*Remembers shower hosted in past for Dana Scully but quivers nervously hoping the joke doesn't back fire*

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

piosenniel · 09-27-2002, 02:01 PM

NOTICE OF POST EDIT FOR EVERYONE

Please see Page 2 of the story - my post of 9/20 2:23 pm. It has been edited to include the blessings and witness scene requisite to the relationship of Mith and Pio.

They are now married! Party to follow later! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Bêthberry · 09-27-2002, 02:18 PM

Far be it from me to cast either one of you two. But if you want the shoe, Cinderella and her fella...

'Twas rather a wild and reckless final hurrah thrown to the Fates by the last NoRomo left on earth after colonization. What goes around come around. Or whatever.

Rose Cotton · 09-27-2002, 04:44 PM

Quote:

It has been edited to include the blessings and witness scene requisite to the relationship of Mith and Pio

YAY! *claps* that's good enough for me.

*runs off to set up the party*

Birdland · 09-28-2002, 12:58 AM

OOPA! I just love a big, fat Elven wedding!

(Birdie does chicken dance!)

mark12_30 · 09-28-2002, 03:23 AM

Mates, I will be gone til THursday. I may be able to post once or twice, but otherwise, write my characters as neccessary. --Helen

Rose Cotton · 09-28-2002, 05:13 AM

Birdie- Have you seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? I didn't, but I heard enough about it from my mom. For those who havn't seen it, it's what happens when two cultures collide. Like what's happening now. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

piosenniel · 09-30-2002, 11:11 AM

How are we proposing to get Daisy from the ship to the prison? I haven't figured that out as yet. She can't swim as far as Pio and certainly can't stay under water as long. Any ideas?

Or should we just gloss over the particulars and do a general 'Levanto got her there.' sort of post. Let me know and I'll write if, if you like, after we hear back from Levanto.

BTW - I changed my previous post - Levanto did not go immediately to the prison-caves - he is waiting for Pio and Cami to give him instructions for the hobbits - set them up for receiving Daisy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Birdland · 09-30-2002, 11:48 AM

I'll take her! Birdie's getting bored with all these Hobbrim children. "No, I will not blow anything else up! Stop asking!"

Child of the 7th Age · 09-30-2002, 12:41 PM

Bird -- You mean you're giving Bird a dolphin back ride? That sounds like fun. Can Cami come too? I could hang on to the tail.

Ok, ok, I know the answer!

Cami Goodchild

piosenniel · 09-30-2002, 01:16 PM

Child

Do you want to set up the meeting with Ancalimon and Mithadan? Pio can then inform Levanto of what we're doing and he can inform the prison-hobbits.

We can then send Bird and Daisy on her way.

How long do we want the informant-Daisy scene to run? Once it is done, will we then move fairly quickly to 'the elven ships have arrived' scene?

09-26-2002, 02:18 PM	#201
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Mith, I think you should reread that section in Morgoth's Ring on Elvish marriage. I don't think an elf would be ahead of ceremony. And if Mith and Pio did the quiet, eloping-sort of marriage that Tolkien describes as an option-- meaning, that the conjugal act constitutes the marriage ceremony-- they would have announced it (I think at the latest, the next day) and Daisy would have lost her roommate anyway. Mith and Pio would already be married and there'd be no need for further ceremony. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 02:27 PM	#202
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	I share your pain Pio. You should dump that man just for that horrible joke. You know I think Angara was right about him. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-26-2002, 02:39 PM	#203
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	Well, heck, the community that plays together stays together. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I just didn't think elves could get pregnant that easily or that quickly at that age. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-26-2002, 02:50 PM	#204
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	They usually got pregnant in the spring; I have no idea what season it is. But the elvish rules and customs about marriage are quite clear. The conjugal act, if performed without prior ceremony, BECOMES the ceremony. So-- they're officially married. And they should have-- would have-- announced it as a courtesy to their shipmates. Daisy needs a new roommate. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 02:58 PM	#205
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Daisy can go stay with the hobbrim. Or, if you guys like the idea, I don't have a roommate either. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-26-2002, 03:07 PM	#206
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Seriously, people. I realize that I'm incredibly naiive. But I thought that Pio was in Mith's room watching over him because of his headache & whateer "black breath" type effect he got from the conflict with Sauron, and that likewise Mith watched over Pio because she had been out in the rain and he just wanted to sit by her. So, laugh at me for a naive idiot; many do. But if they'd gotten close enough for her to conceive, they should have annouced it back then. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 03:13 PM	#207
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	Helen, my dear Helen, You haven't been reading enough Victorian novels. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I recall a passage about an elbow in I think it is Mill on the Floss that .... Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-26-2002, 03:15 PM	#208
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I doubt Tolkien read many of them. He'd be rolling in his grave. [ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 03:21 PM	#209
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Well I don't think I'd hurt for Pio and Mith to have thier oun version on a relationship. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-26-2002, 03:26 PM	#210
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Tolkien clearly wrote down, from the point of view of the Eldar, what the rules about marriage are. See HoME, Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs among the Eldar. We've gone to huge effort to make this story as historically accurate as possible, as canonically correct as possible. Why neglect the laws of marriage? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 03:38 PM	#211
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Yes, Tolkien definitely said that about Elvish unions. In lieu of a ceremony, two Elves are definitely married after the physical act takes place. Only, I'm human, and it doesn't seem right unless they get up there in front of us and make pledges to each other and exchange rings. Plus, only one-quarter of this union is Elvish. Half is big person, and one-quarter hobbit. And, as far as I'm concerned, that hobbit quarter's not hooked until they go through the proper steps. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

09-26-2002, 03:44 PM	#212
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	LOL Child. So what's the problem? If you bothered to read, Mith's already getting Pio's ring ready. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-26-2002, 04:10 PM	#214
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,373	For the record, Mithadan is a mere mortal man, ignorant of the ways of the Elves regarding marriage and, likely, many other matters as well. Mithadan's puppetmaster has read Customs of the Eldar, but, also being a mortal man, forgot the details (though I recall the part about exchanging rings or gifts). I assume that Piosenniel, as she commented earlier, realizes that Mithadan is a bit of a simpleton on these matters and did not push the point. Also, I'm not sure that she would be constrained to follow Elvish custom outside of her own kin. Helen, would the exchange of gifts satisfy you, now that Mithadan has come to his wits? If you insist, I will change things around somehow. I wouldn't want anyone to be angry that we have deviated from the proper course at this point. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

09-26-2002, 04:30 PM	#215
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Is it possible to backfit the exchange of gifts closer to when the romance blossomed and Pio declared her commitment to Mithadan? She made up her mind strongly enough and would not be deterred, I personally see no reason not to exchange gifts at that point. The advantage of that would be that Pat's post about the twins can stand as written. The post about Mithadan's introduction to the twins was a stunningly beautiful post, and I would be very happy to see it stand exactly as written. (Okay, I could/ should also say that as a reader, having now been introduced to the twins I am loathe to put them on hold for any reason. They are lovely. ) in the meantime, Olive branch accepted, and respectfully kissed and returned, Mith. Thank you. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 05:48 PM	#216
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,373	I'll reread that section of Customs this evening and see what I can do to satisfy Elvish customs at some appropriate point earlier in the story. No olive branch need be offered back. Glad to do it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ] __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

09-26-2002, 09:24 PM	#217
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Another point to consider: Mithadan is a man of Numenorean descent, proud of it, and one who tries to maintain his honor in it. He's also one who constantly reminds his crew about responsibility, chain-of-command, and The Captain Being Responsible for the actions of His Crew. If in spite of all that, he could, under duress, shrug all that off, and say to himself, "Well, regardless of the societal norms this will flout; regardless of what kind of impact this will have on my crew's respect for me; regardless of what effect this has on morale; regardless of what effect it will have on my crew to realise that I have flouted the conservative societal rules that hobbits, men, and elves grow up with in Middle Earth-- well, nevermind all that. Maybe on a ship this small nobody will notice. And if they do maybe it won't matter." He's not that much of a wymp. He would have stood his ground, and insisted on maintaining his crew's respect for him. Piosenniel might not have worried about the rules. Mithadan would have. He's always tried to maintain a tight ship, and he's not about to lose his (conservative) crew's respect. He would fight to keep it. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 09:39 PM	#218
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Who said anything whatsoever about renouncing? "Wait til we exchange vows" is hardly renouncing. Is she comitted to him, or not? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-26-2002, 11:31 PM	#222
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Helen -- Posibly, but maybe not. I'm not sure if these two particular characters would have done this immediately. Certainly, if Cami had made such vows, she would have yelled it from the highest rooftop! But both of these characters are, in my opinion, very different. They are very reserved, and value their privacy. And on such a small ship, privacy must be hard to come by. That is one of the things that struck me even in contrasting Pio's situation with my own in the camps. She had no woods to get away to and take quiet walks. Everywhere she looked, people were watching her every move. Mithadan's character is quite reserved and sometimes enjoys being "mysterious" (or so I see him.) There have been many times in the story when I wasn't really sure what he was thinking, and I believe that was intentional. Pio's character has been even more like this. Pio herself admits that, for the beginning of the story, the Elf tended to be "manipulative" and was only slowly learning to grow beyond that. Again and again in the plot she's had many "secrets". Going off to see Levanto and not telling folk where she's going is only the latest example. Looking back on Cami's relationship with Pio in the story, I don't think Pio or Mithadan would ever make a "public" anouncement. Pio would have asked me to come to her cabin and talk privately. Then I would spread the word to the rest of the hobbits (unless she told me it was a secret). sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

09-26-2002, 11:35 PM	#223
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Birdie's got a shotgun, if that will help. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Oh, wait a minute. Firearms = NON-CANON. Guess we could make it a "bow and arrow wedding."

09-27-2002, 12:03 AM	#225
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Of course, I would tell Birdie too. But I think Pio would have called you in at the same time as me, or in a separate meeting so I wouldn't have to tell you! Cami __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

09-27-2002, 04:50 AM	#227
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Wow. I leave you all for one night and I come back to find this? The question is, are we all going to get to see the babies. I have a feeling that the Lonely Star crew is not gonna stay together for another 9 months. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-27-2002, 07:15 AM	#228
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,373	Helen, Pat and I will caucus privately about this matter. We will bring others into the discussion if needed. Until then, this thread is closed temporarily pending character and plot adjustments. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

09-27-2002, 01:05 PM	#229
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,373	Open for business again! __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

09-27-2002, 01:10 PM	#230
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	And do I get to host the showers--wedding or baby or both? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Remembers shower hosted in past for Dana Scully but quivers nervously hoping the joke doesn't back fire [ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ] __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-27-2002, 02:01 PM	#231
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	NOTICE OF POST EDIT FOR EVERYONE Please see Page 2 of the story - my post of 9/20 2:23 pm. It has been edited to include the blessings and witness scene requisite to the relationship of Mith and Pio. They are now married! Party to follow later! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

09-27-2002, 02:18 PM	#232
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	Far be it from me to cast either one of you two. But if you want the shoe, Cinderella and her fella... 'Twas rather a wild and reckless final hurrah thrown to the Fates by the last NoRomo left on earth after colonization. What goes around come around. Or whatever. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-28-2002, 12:58 AM	#234
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	OOPA! I just love a big, fat Elven wedding! (Birdie does chicken dance!)

09-28-2002, 03:23 AM	#235
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Mates, I will be gone til THursday. I may be able to post once or twice, but otherwise, write my characters as neccessary. --Helen __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-28-2002, 05:13 AM	#236
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Birdie- Have you seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? I didn't, but I heard enough about it from my mom. For those who havn't seen it, it's what happens when two cultures collide. Like what's happening now. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-30-2002, 11:11 AM	#237
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	How are we proposing to get Daisy from the ship to the prison? I haven't figured that out as yet. She can't swim as far as Pio and certainly can't stay under water as long. Any ideas? Or should we just gloss over the particulars and do a general 'Levanto got her there.' sort of post. Let me know and I'll write if, if you like, after we hear back from Levanto. BTW - I changed my previous post - Levanto did not go immediately to the prison-caves - he is waiting for Pio and Cami to give him instructions for the hobbits - set them up for receiving Daisy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

09-30-2002, 11:48 AM	#238
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I'll take her! Birdie's getting bored with all these Hobbrim children. "No, I will not blow anything else up! Stop asking!"

09-30-2002, 12:41 PM	#239
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Bird -- You mean you're giving Bird a dolphin back ride? That sounds like fun. Can Cami come too? I could hang on to the tail. Ok, ok, I know the answer! Cami Goodchild __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

09-30-2002, 01:16 PM	#240
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Child Do you want to set up the meeting with Ancalimon and Mithadan? Pio can then inform Levanto of what we're doing and he can inform the prison-hobbits. We can then send Bird and Daisy on her way. How long do we want the informant-Daisy scene to run? Once it is done, will we then move fairly quickly to 'the elven ships have arrived' scene? __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.