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04-25-2019, 09:02 AM | #201 |
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Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-25-2019, 09:07 AM | #202 | ||
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I agree with you that he required help getting an army over the mountains, but I wonder more about where he thought Turgon could have been. Quote:
Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth. The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him? i do agree about the Havens. Morgoth should have known where the Silmaril ended up, and it wouldn't have taken him much force to regain it.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-25-2019, 09:10 AM | #203 | |
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Basically I think Beleg would keep doing what he was doing before.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-25-2019, 09:16 AM | #204 |
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Yes. I wish I had a friend like Beleg. That friendship was so good while it lasted.
By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-25-2019 at 09:20 AM. |
04-25-2019, 09:34 AM | #205 | ||
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Going back to the discussion of Turin and the Curse and the what-ifs, I came upon this interesting quote: Quote:
And I still stand by my earlier argument that whatever he does he will worse than fail by the nature of the Curse, but his problem is that he always rises high and so the stakes are always high and the disaster is big. He can't keep his head down, not meddle in the big affairs, keep to himself in a quiet way. No, he has to lead and lead big, as big as he can, so the crash is big too. Had he lead some quiet reclusive life on a farmstead or in the woods or something, his doom might have been proportionally small. And he tried for a while - with the outlaws, and later before his integration into Brethil - but he just can't be less than he is. He is a great man, a great fighter, a great leader, and he can't not be the best he can be.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-25-2019, 09:47 AM | #206 | |
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My guess is that, until the Nirnaeth, Morgoth actually didn't think about Turgon at all. There might have been some murmuring about how the High King's son/brother (delete as temporally appropriate) vanished, but if some cowardly elf and his people chose to run off, what was that to the King of the World? It was only when Turgon suddenly appeared with a vast army that Morgoth had no idea was out there that he had to pay attention. Morgoth knew that Turgon had appeared and retreated through the Pass of Sirion, which actually rules out a lot of places I've suggested. He probably picked up the name of Gondolin, and so knew that he was looking for the Hidden Rock (whatever that meant). And he knew that it could field at least ten thousand warriors. At that point... maybe he could have made the wild leap to 'hidden valley in the mountains'. But I still think 'somewhere off in the south' is more logical (like, say, the mouths of Sirion... ) hS |
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04-25-2019, 09:55 AM | #207 |
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The reason I ruled out a lot of places is 1) has to be where Morgoth's spies wouldn't see him - what keeps them from checking out all the other random lumps of rock? Nothing much, really; and 2) Turgon has to be close enough to be relevant. I mean sure, he could have even gone over the Ered Luin, but then he's less in the picture and less worrisome. He can't get into the play in time to change events; he has to be physically present on site to make a difference that would affect Morgoth.
(Again what no one realized is that Gondolin's importance was in making Earendil and not in their strength at all, but then no one has the same reader's knowledge as us, so they all assume that the way of defeating Morgoth must be through battle with him and through survival when battle is not possible).
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
04-25-2019, 10:01 AM | #208 | |
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I believe that, had he stayed in Doriath, and took Nellas as his wife, the curse would have been avoided. Alternatively, since Beleriand is Morgoth's domain, if he and his family fled Beleriand, they would have been safe from the curse. And Morgoth would have been left with Hurin alone. I wrote a what-if story about what would have happened if Beleg and Nellas tried to waylay the Curse.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-25-2019 at 10:34 AM. |
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04-25-2019, 10:04 AM | #209 |
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What would you say if there existed an Elf with Orcish heritage?
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-25-2019 at 10:33 AM. |
04-25-2019, 04:46 PM | #210 |
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-25-2019 at 04:50 PM. |
04-25-2019, 08:32 PM | #211 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
But regardless, don't think that would have worked anyways given that Turin's life passion was to fight Morgoth, something that's hard to do when you're a million miles away. Quote:
(I'm kidding. Fanfic is where we can have our favourite characters stay alive and choose the righter option, even as we know it can't be this way.)
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04-25-2019, 08:42 PM | #212 | |
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I heard a parent say about their autistic child that the illness might be an explanation for the child's behaviour, but it is not an excuse. I think that's a sentence that all people should live by and should be judged by, regardless of what may serve as explanation for what goes on in their lives. We need to know the explanation - the "why" is the essence of every person, and the reason we feel any emotion about them. However, there is a line for everyone, and once that line is crossed, it's crossed. It's possible to relate to Maeglin, pity him, empathize with him, wish better luck or chances for him, seek the sources of his personality, etc. - and yet still find him guilty and deserving of the consequences that he got. An explanation is not always an excuse.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-26-2019, 12:52 AM | #213 |
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If you think I don't know that, then look at my signature. If I found M[a]eglin completely blameless, I wouldn't have this signature.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-26-2019, 06:34 AM | #214 |
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As was the case with so very many of my clients. And where I was obliged to make that argument, even as I knew what the CA's standard riposte was going to be: "His crappy upbringing didn't pick up a gun and kill someone; he did."
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
04-26-2019, 06:56 AM | #215 |
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Except that he didn't 'pick up' anything. Rather, he was the one picked up and tossed over the edge. Oh, and let's not forget that his arm was broken.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-26-2019, 07:01 AM | #216 | |
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hS |
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04-26-2019, 07:05 AM | #217 | |
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Breaking news: A 20-year-old (by human standards) attempts a murder, then gets tossed into the fire (I might be a bit biased here, considering another fictional character I cherished deeply was also killed at the age of twenty, by one of the 'good guys')
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-26-2019, 07:13 AM | #218 | |
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Fixed that for you.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-26-2019, 07:15 AM | #219 |
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Well, like I said.....
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-26-2019, 07:17 AM | #220 |
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Which other 20 year old are you referring to?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
04-26-2019, 07:27 AM | #221 |
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He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-26-2019, 07:28 AM | #222 |
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Ah. I was thinking it's within the legendarium. Thanks for clarifying!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
04-26-2019, 07:33 AM | #223 |
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I find Turin and Beleg's friendship inspirational.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-27-2019, 08:13 AM | #224 |
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I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-27-2019, 08:56 AM | #225 | |
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-27-2019, 09:44 AM | #226 | |
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On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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04-27-2019, 09:52 AM | #227 | |
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 04-27-2019 at 08:51 PM. |
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04-27-2019, 10:07 AM | #228 | |
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Yes, this quote got me thinking about it
Quote:
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-29-2019, 09:21 AM | #229 | |||
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Taking a few things in reverse...
Quote:
Without checking, I feel like it was mostly the post-king Gondorians who reused names (ie, the Stewards and Dol Amroth); there's an Earendil and a Turambar in the list of kings of Gondor, but the rest look pretty unfamiliar. The lines of Numenor and Arnor are equally non-First-Age. So I feel like there was an element of harking back to the Glory Days (even if they weren't Gondorian Glory Days) involved in the whole thing. Quote:
Of course, the external answer is that Tolkien frequently cannibalised the earlier Tales when writing LotR and its associated texts. That's why he had such trouble with Glorfindel - originally he was just a convenient name, but when he set to cleaning up the Gondolin tale for theoretical publication, he had to find a way to reconcile the two. Quote:
And then, after Finwe and Finwe Jr I were both dead, Finwe Jr II and Finwe Jr III both stuck their dad's name on the beginning of their own names, which were already their dad's name with something stuck on the beginning, because... somehow doing that made them more kingly? Basically, if Mordred had just renamed himself Arthurevilarthur, he would've had the throne no problem. hS |
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04-29-2019, 04:59 PM | #230 |
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Note that the Kings of Gondor took names in Quenya, while the First Age Elves are ordinarily known by their Sindarin handles. So there may be more duplication than appears.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
05-02-2019, 11:06 AM | #231 |
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I wonder how would Eol have felt if he knew that a mortal wielded his creation. If he is anything like his son, I reckon he'd be disgusted.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
05-03-2019, 03:26 AM | #232 |
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
05-03-2019, 04:43 AM | #233 | ||
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I could see him getting on quite well with Turin, who (to Eol's mind) quite rightly shunned his kinsman Thingol. I can also see him and Haleth hitting it off - after all, she hated House Feanor enough to drag her people through a Spider-infested valley rather than be connected to them, and then she snubbed Thingol something fierce. She had to go pretty much right past Nan Elmoth to reach Brethil, too... you know, I think there's a story in that. (I wonder if I can tie it to my theory about Narsil being Haleth's sword...) Quote:
hS |
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05-03-2019, 05:16 AM | #234 |
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Well, I value Turin and co. even more than M[a]eglin.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
05-03-2019, 04:14 PM | #235 |
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P.S: I read your theory (the one where Maglor killed Maedhros) and I have mixed feelings about it.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
05-05-2019, 02:46 AM | #236 |
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Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
05-05-2019, 05:50 AM | #237 | ||
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(Note that I'm not saying he did. Unlike the Not-So-Crackpot Theories, which go on the idea that Tolkien didn't tell us everything, the Filthy Liars section plays with the idea of Tolkien as an unreliable narrator. Much as I enjoy the theory itself, Tolkien was very clear on what happened to the Silmarils.) Quote:
But... assuming that Maeglin is released immediately after the end of the Third Age (this is amazingly generous; personally I doubt he's coming out at all), that's still over six thousand years for the survivors of Gondolin to hold a grudge. Can you imagine still caring about something after what's basically the entire length of human civilisation - and caring about it enough to commit murder, and get yourself brought before the Valar Themselves? I don't imagine they'd particularly like Maeglin, at least at first. If the House of Finwe accepts him as one of their own, they could probably rehabilitate him - it's hard to imagine the survivors muttering against overmuch him once Turgon has publically forgiven him. But I don't think lynching is particularly likely. THAT SAID... what about before reembodiment? I've taken the position before that the Halls of Mandos are a fairly solitary environment, but Tolkien gives us an example of quite an involved interaction between deceased elves: Finwe and Miriel, who pretty much put together a legal case in the Halls. So apparently they can meet up, and even disagree; so yeah, dead!Maeglin would most definitely be shunned, even assuming no form of pseudo-physical interaction was possible. hS |
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05-05-2019, 05:57 AM | #238 |
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Did you see my new parodies? They pretty much play up on that idea.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
05-05-2019, 06:02 AM | #239 |
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Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?
Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him. Also...... "Thus with words have I slain one that I loved."
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 05-05-2019 at 06:07 AM. |
05-05-2019, 11:03 AM | #240 |
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I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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