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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
10-05-2018, 12:10 PM
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#201 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Ah, yes, you're right - I misread your post above and thought you meant we hadn't finalized it yet.
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10-07-2018, 10:25 PM
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#202 | |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Quote:
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11-20-2018, 03:21 PM
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#203 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Aiwendil, is there any update as to the status of your review of our drafts?
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12-17-2018, 02:35 PM
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#204 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Sorry for the absence in recent weeks. I should have some time to get back into things in the next few weeks, and I think I'll start by reviewing the work on "The Coming of the Elves" unless you think there's another chapter that would be better to start with.
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12-17-2018, 05:15 PM
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#205 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Feel free to start there, but be warned: It is long and dense
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01-08-2019, 06:55 PM
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#206 |
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Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Whoops, I accidentally posted a chapter discussion in the wrong topic. Fin copied it to the proper topic.
Last edited by gandalf85; 01-14-2019 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Accidentally posted this in the wrong topic |
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01-09-2019, 09:40 AM
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#207 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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gandalf please repost this in the correct thread and edit your post above so as to avoid confusion in the future.
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02-09-2019, 11:17 AM
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#208 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Since gandalf has now reviewed all the drafts of the second and third age, and we have revised them accordingly, perhaps Fin should update the status of those chapters to finished?
Regardless of that, we are now faced with a decision. We have two options going forward: 1) gandalf could review our drafts of the first age chapters. This would be a very daunting task, and if Aiwendil eventually returned for good, it would be all for naught, since he would start the reviews again from scratch. 2) I could start posting my drafts for Volume 3: the Lore of the Wise. This would further clutter up the forum, and will involve a lot of work, since a lot of these drafts are very technical and tedious to work with. But it would represent a continuation of the project. I will support any course, but I think a good deal of the decision must lie with gandalf, since he will be the one most affected by the choice, being the one with least familiarity with the First Age drafts. Fin and gandalf equally have no experience with the Volume III drafts, so it would be equally difficult for both of you. I will follow either course, but I am inclined to prefer the Volume III route, simply because the potential to redo all the first age drafts twice is daunting. |
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02-11-2019, 06:20 PM
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#209 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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As ArcusCalion requested rightly an update of the status, here it goes.
The following status classes still are used: Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. First Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion, but not yet posted in the Forum. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, and posted in the Forum. But up to now no discussion had started. Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision. Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed OR finished by a small sub-group discussion but not yet agreed upon by all members. Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result. Quote:
Findegil |
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02-11-2019, 06:22 PM
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#210 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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About the choices: I agree that doing all the first age stuff twice would be double work. So my first impuls would as well be to start with volume 3, but on the other hand gandalf85 could start with the Ainulindalë and may be when he reaches in his review chapter 4 Of the Coming of the Elves we might pick up Aiwendil were he last hooked of.
Anyhow with ArcusCalions post in the Valaquenta thread, and his remarks about chapter 4 Of the Coming of the Elves I see that we might have a need to review the First Age stuff. But in the end, I am not against any course. As you prefer: start 1) or 2) or both in parallel, anyway I will contribute to the discussion as good as I can. Respectfully Findegil |
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02-11-2019, 07:12 PM
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#211 |
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Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I didn't see these new posts until I had already reviewed Ainulindale and Valaquenta. I can see how it would be effectively double the work for you guys to review it again whenever Aiwendil re-appears. Upon thinking on it some more, I think I will ask Arcus for the Volume III drafts. I can return to Volume I after, and hopefully by that time Aiwendil has returned.
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02-11-2019, 09:03 PM
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#212 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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In that case you could both review the current chapter posted in the forum from Volume 3: the Ambarcanta. Only gondowe replied to the thread, and did not offer too many comments. You could both review that one as a nice easy start to Volume 3, as other works are much more difficult.
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02-19-2019, 03:58 PM
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#213 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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The following status classes still are used:
Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. First Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion, but not yet posted in the Forum. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, and posted in the Forum. But up to now no discussion had started. Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision. Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed OR finished by a small sub-group discussion but not yet agreed upon by all members. Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result. Quote:
Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 02-20-2019 at 04:20 PM. |
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02-19-2019, 04:54 PM
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#214 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Of Thingol and Melian is finished since Aiwendil OKed it.
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02-20-2019, 04:21 PM
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#215 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Oops! I lost track of that. But it is corrected now.
Respectfully Findegil |
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02-26-2019, 07:04 PM
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#216 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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The following status classes still are used:
Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. First Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion, but not yet posted in the Forum. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, and posted in the Forum. But up to now no discussion had started. Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision. Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed OR finished by a small sub-group discussion but not yet agreed upon by all members. Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result. Quote:
Findegil |
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09-19-2020, 04:05 PM
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#217 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Once again, I've got to apologize for neglecting this project. I do hope I can find some time soon to take it up again.
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09-21-2020, 07:18 AM
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#218 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Hello back! You make me at long last hope for a revival in this silence of one of longest waves of low activity I have seen in this project. At least I am still here and ready to take up the discussion where ever you like to start and when ever you find the time to do it.
Respectfully Findegil P.S.: If you name the place for that restart, it would help me to prepair myself, and proably give a short summary in wake of that process. |
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09-23-2020, 01:06 PM
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#219 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Very glad to see you're still around! Again, I'm sorry that I haven't found the time to revive this for a while.
I think when I was last here we were discussing "Of the Coming of the Elves", so that would be a logical place to return to. As I recall, though, we were rather at an impasse that I didn't see much of a way around, concerning some of the material from Myths Transformed. I don't think my opinion on this has changed, but I'll read back through the discussions and see if anything new strikes me. |
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10-15-2020, 02:19 PM
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#220 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Just wanted to say that I'm still here and I'm in the process of reading through and commenting on "Of the Coming of the Elves". Apologies for being so slow.
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10-15-2020, 02:42 PM
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#221 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Good to hear! I have as well read our discussion hear.
Respectfully Findegil |
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10-18-2020, 05:46 AM
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#222 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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amazing to see how much you all have done. deep bow!
I am in process of re-marrying and moving out of the US, perhaps for good, if that resettles I would love to pitch in in some minor way at least. what a thing to see. :-) the project/forum is coming up on a 20 year anniversary! tempus fugit ~ lindil
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
Last edited by lindil; 10-18-2020 at 05:47 AM. Reason: just being typo prone me |
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10-19-2020, 07:15 PM
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#223 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Lindil! Great to see you, and congratulations. Yes, the project continues to creep along - Findegil really deserves the credit for that, as he's always ready to pick it up again whenever I manage to find the time to get back into it.
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10-26-2020, 11:08 AM
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#224 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Greetings all! I also have to apologize for being so absent. Life caught up with me in ways it had not before. I'd like to think Findegil and I did some great work before the long hiatus, and I am glad to see Aiwendil has returned! I will try to find some time to reimmerse myself in this project at some point.
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10-08-2021, 02:32 PM
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#225 | |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Volume 3 Outline Update
Good day everyone,
With the release of the new Nature of Middle-earth, I have been launched into more editing and compiling related to the material in that book, most of which fits into the purview of Volume III. I figured I would post my new and improved outline for that Volume, as well as bring up a point of discussion. Firstly, the discussion: I tried looking for a thread on this, but I couldn't find one. What was the consensus as to the limits of the linguistic material to be included? A great deal of the 'lore' that Tolkien wrote arose out of contemplation of various elvish words or roots, during the explanation of which he outlined complex philosophical concepts like the soul, spirits, light, dark, and the nature of the Valar. I know we have already decided to include some of the linguistic material which has more lore value, but what line are we drawing, and what should we include or not? I only ask because in my renewed editing, I have been revisiting the Tengwesta Quenderinwa, which was a document Tolkien wrote laying out the basis of the sound evolutions from Primitive Elvish into Quenya/Sindarin/Telerin etc. It's second draft dates to around the same period as Lord of the Rings, and contains the Lambion Ontalë, which we have agreed to use as our replacement for the Lhammas text from HoME V, due to its identical subject matter. However, the Lambion Ontalë is only the first of several sections of the Tengwesta Quenderinwa, which go into great detail about how words are formed, how sounds evolved, and how Elvish was pronounced. I personally think it's really interesting, and I would like to include it, as Tolkien considered it valid through the 1960s (as evidenced by several late notes and additions to it) but I am unsure of the scope of the project and where this text lies in relation to that. Secondly, the outline: I will include the above-mentioned sections, as I have worked on them already, and we can decide if we wish to include them or not. Quote:
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10-09-2021, 10:59 AM
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#226 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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About the discussion: For me there is no reason not to include linguistcal stuff. It is rather missing confidence in my own abbilities in linguistical matters that I am concerned about. As always we have to be careful not to creat any lingustical facts not based on original Tolkien material.
Respectfully Findegil |
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10-09-2021, 12:10 PM
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#227 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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For the Tengwesta Quenderinwa at least, the content was considered valid by Tolkien into the late 1960s, as evidenced by its agreement with linguistic material from that date. There are a few other works by Tolkien which are bundled with the TQ material which are also considered authoritative, but we can discuss those at a later date. It would be good to have an elvish linguistic expert such as someone from Eldamo to help review those works.
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08-28-2023, 07:58 AM
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#228 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I just wanted to comment on this thread to boost it to the top of the list for the newcomers. This is the full outline of the entire project as it currently stands. The chapters labeled "Finished" are generally the result of multiple rounds of editing and multiple (4 or more) members coming to an agreement that the chapter is in a finished state. Of course, such chapters can always be critiqued and changed further if some new material or unforeseen issue is raised, but generally these chapters are not the most fertile for discussion and work.
If you want some direction as to where to start with the project I would take a look at some finished chapters to get a feel for the methods of the project, but then to start participating in discussion I would try a Semi-finished or Work in Progress chapter. I will say that the entirety of the Second and Third Ages will likely be revised once we finish our review of the first age material, so if you have a special interest in those time periods feel free to read those threads. The Private Forum is not always up-to-date with the texts, so please consider the Private Forum the 'first draft' of the full text before all the changes have been made which arise over the course of discussion. |
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09-05-2023, 07:38 AM
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#229 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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I have a suggestion, since I can't seem to find it in the outlines for TNS:
Should we include a 'Tale of Years' in the outline - I'm itching to create one!  I mean - short of the mess in the NoME, that is.
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09-06-2023, 02:12 AM
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#230 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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You mean a Tale of the Years for the First Age of the Sun I suppose, since the Second and Third Age are covered in the cannon published by JRR Tolkien himself.
Since we only have texts from Tolkien for The Tale of the Years for the last section of the First Age, I don't see how we could under our rules create such a text. Beside that we would have to fix not only a sequence of events, which is hard enough in parts, but we would have to put fixed dates on any event mentioned in such text. That is asking for a lot of dispute and the result would be questionaled at best. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-06-2023, 03:30 AM
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#231 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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I'm talking more about a 'Chronology of Arda', so to speak - covering everything from the beginning of the world all the way to the events of 'The New Shadow' (and maybe even beyond that - all the way to the Seventh Age, which is attested in the NoME). For example, we have an approximate year for the end of the Fourth Age (c. FoA 2700) - as per PoME. Besides, I'm not advocating for any in-depth depiction of the events - just cursory ones, so that readers can have a go-to reference for any date relating to events/characters/etc.
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09-08-2023, 12:29 AM
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#232 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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As much as I see that time-line project as interesting, I don't see that under the goal and rules this project has given to itself it can be a part of it. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see such project and its result. It is tempting as well to work on it. So I encourage you to discuss it further in the Books forum. But I don't see that it has any place in TftE. If such a timeline would be necessity for or work or for the potential reader, I would agree that we could place it in the appendices. But I don’t see it that way.
Respectfully Findegil |
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09-08-2023, 01:05 AM
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#233 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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I think a Tale of Years of the First Age (and including from the creation of Arda) is indispensable. Because Tolkien gave so much importance to the cronologies and the geography. But of course without invent anything.
The only Tale of years we have is that of WotJ/Annals. And I think it could be adapted with material from NoME in the way I said two years ago. Erasing every mention to the 9.8 or 144 SY for each VY. The inverosimilitude of some events woul be evitent. But if it's taken as Mannish tradition it would be 'explainable'. Well, it is an opinion. Greetings |
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09-08-2023, 03:28 PM
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#234 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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I don't see anything wrong with keeping the 'Annals of Aman' + 'The Grey Annals' + 'Tale of Years (WotJ)' in our (flat-world) conception.
Of course, we could (and should) add bits and pieces from other works when we have evidence for their chronological place, if it fits our 'flat-world' framework. I wasn't suggesting any fanfiction with my 'Chronology of Arda'  .Though I would go further than Gondowe, and extend the 'Chronology' into the Second, Third, Fourth, and even further Ages (as long as we have textual evidence that fits TNS criteria, that is).
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09-10-2023, 02:30 AM
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#235 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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As you can see in the structure of my proposed Thain's Book I show the cronology of the Second and Third Ages but each one in their respective sections and all were enlarged with dates and events taken from PoME and genealogical tables or contrasted notes writen by Tolkien.
As I think is in this forum, I don't and didn't want to invent anything that changes the internal history writen by Tolkien. I only 'invent' some few subtitles for chapters (not words so told so by Tolkien) because they do not change anything in history. I.e. In WotJ there is a note that Tolkien change the Dor-lómin lordship fot Hador by Fingolfin in 416FA so this is an adition in the ToY (for tht reason I don't agree to invent an hipothetical and speculative date for a 'new' lordship date if Hador/Magor change is taken apart that the lodships of Dor-lómin and Ladros are give in a temporal similarity and it is not developed narratively by the Professor, and as this example there are others). In NoME there are a proposed date by Tolkien for the birth of Finduilas or Idril so it could be taken and so and so. As for the 4th, and after ages we don't have anything apart the First years from the LotR and the well know statement by Tolkien and confirmed in NoME that we are now in the 7th age. So for my rules should be left as it is because I would do speculative stuff. In my proposal Thain's Book I do make especial importance about the transmision method of the texts as Tolkien wrote in the Note about the Shire Recordings. So the 'Compilation of Findegil of Gondor of the Thain's Book' is a Middle Earth book that (not writen in my text) was was discovered by Tolkien in some time and place. Greetings |
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09-11-2023, 01:35 AM
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#236 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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I have my doubts: AAm, GA do not really stick together with ToY. Beside that we used all three to build our main text.
But go ahead, start to edit what you think is fitting and as soon as you make a posting of parts here we will discuss it in detail and see if it can work or not. Respectfully Findegil |
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11-11-2023, 11:16 AM
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#237 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Have any of you gotten their hands on the new Letters?
Regardless, here's an excerpt from the Nerd of the Rings' review of the book, in which he elaborates on the substantial extension of the 'Letter 131', with some material that might be pertinent to this project: https://youtu.be/O2tACra4AJw?t=533 To be fair, this letter is from the early '50s, I think - therefore, much of the material that Tolkien later wrote (some of which, like the Athrabeth, he explicitly wanted to include as an appendix to the Silmarillion) don't appear in this outline, naturally.
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11-14-2023, 12:17 PM
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#238 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Yay! My copy of the letters finally arrived.
How should we incorporate this part (if at all): Quote:
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11-16-2023, 09:03 AM
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#239 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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It is an interristing peace, but I don't think we can use it in any way.
Respectfully Findegil |
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11-16-2023, 09:13 AM
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#240 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Linear Mode
