Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Belladonna?

[Pervinca Took]

That's the one!

[Urwen]

All right, I'm not gonna pretend my riddles are hard anymore, so have at it.


Me, who never saw the light of Aman
Though I have seen countless days
I have done great things,
And so did you

She, the silent watcher
The teacher and the protector
She stayed away from limelight
Except for that one time

Me and her, we both loved you
In our own ways
And even though I felt some doubt
It never led me astray

Me and you once fought side by side
My weapons and your sword
We fought against the tides
But that time is no more

Fate let you and me
Fight side by side once again
Until you were taken away
In the end, I was slain

You met the same fate
As I had by your hands
You were found too late
When it was already done

She lived on still
As was the One's will
But you and I no longer stand
Or walk together upon this land

[Huinesoron]

... er...

So a lot of this sounds like Nienor to Turin, but there's also a lot that... doesn't. I think the resonances are intentional, though whether on your part or Tolkien's I couldn't say.

I'm trying to conjure up someone who killed someone they loved, while leaving a woman alive, and it's not coming to me. The tradegy still evokes Turin, but the only woman who survives that story is Morwen, and she definitely didn't stand aside.

hS

[Urwen]

You are right, Turin is one of the people involved, but Nienor isn't. There are three different people referenced in the riddle.


Also, methinks that you forgot someone else, just as Turin had in canon.

[Huinesoron]

Oh! Um, hang on, is it... Beleg? To Turin, with 'her' being S... um... Nellas? Something like that.

If so, the sneaky part (other than not being the expected 'characters who love Turin' set) is that the second-to-last verse feels like it implies (but doesn't actually) that Turin's death came close on the heels of Beleg's. Which is clever worduse!

hS

[Urwen]

You're correct. Please proceed.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Oh! Um, hang on, is it... Beleg? To Turin, with 'her' being S... um... Nellas? Something like that.

If so, the sneaky part (other than not being the expected 'characters who love Turin' set) is that the second-to-last verse feels like it implies (but doesn't actually) that Turin's death came close on the heels of Beleg's. Which is clever worduse!

hS

Well, I am allowed to be sneaky, am I not?


Also, in CoH, Beleg is stated to have loved Turin by the author himself, which is where the main idea came from, and then I included Nellas to make it a bit more harder.

[Huinesoron]

Sneaky is good! I liked it - definitely made me have to think.

Star bright, far sight
Over who three princes fight
Borne in rescue, borne in flight,
Resting now in waters white.

hS

[Urwen]

The Silmarils. One is in the skies, one is in the chasm, and one was chucked into the sea by Maglor.

[Huinesoron]

I like it, but no. There is a single answer to this one.

hS

[Urwen]

The Silmaril Beren liberated then?

[Pervinca Took]

Is it the Star of the Dunedain?

[Huinesoron]

Not any of the Silmarils, nor the Star of the Dunedain, which... is a thing I literally learnt about just now, that's pretty cool!

hS

[Urwen]

Elwing?

[Huinesoron]

Not her either.

Of the guesses so far, 'Star of the Dunedain' is closest in time and general area.

Closest. Not close.

hS

[Urwen]

Numenor?

[Huinesoron]

The answer coexisted with Numenor, but also survived past it.

hS

[Urwen]

Palantir?

[Huinesoron]

It IS a Palantir!

... but which one, and why?

hS

[Urwen]

The one in Osgiliath fits best. Osgiliath translates as the Dome of the Stars and its Palantir fell into Anduin during the civil war.

[Huinesoron]

Not the Osgiliath-stone; there's another that fits the third and (especially) second lines better.

hS

[Urwen]

Then it must be the one on Amon Sul.

The palantír of Amon Sûl, most powerful of the three in Arnor, was kept for centuries in the Watchtower of Amon Sûl. When Arnor was divided into three kingdoms, all of them claimed Amon Sûl, largely because of the palantír. Just before Angmar captured and destroyed the Watchtower in T.A. 1409, the Stone was removed and taken to Fornost. It remained there until Fornost too was overrun, when Arvedui took it to Forochel. It was lost in T.A. 1975 when the ship on which he was travelling foundered in the ice.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then it must be the one on Amon Sul.

Correct!

Star bright - The Palantiri were represented on the banners of Elendil's ships by seven stars
Far sight - translation of 'Palantir'
Over who three princes fight - Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur squabbled over the Amon Sul stone
Borne in rescue - the Amon Sul stone was rescued from the Witch-King's attack and taken to Fornost
Borne in flight - Arvedui took it with him when he fled the fall of Arthedain
Resting now in waters white - it sank with the king (and the Annuminas stone) into the icy-white waters off Forochel.

Over to you, Urwen, and well earned!

hS

[Urwen]

I kinda had a riddle in mind, but you inspired me to make a better one, so here goes.


By hands of the fair folk was I made
In the ages past
For a long time I was lost
Until the kinsman of the hero found me at last


I was passed to the savior
And I served him well
I gave him a warning
His enemies' approach I could foretell

[Galadriel55]

Sting?


The riddles go by so fast I can barely catch any unsolved.

[Huinesoron]

Agree with Sting as most likely, though writing Bilbo off as 'kinsman of the hero' amuses me. ^_^ Maybe [s]Biter[/s] Orcrist instead? It may have been found by one of the other dwarves before being given to Thorin.

... I've just been reminded that the movies have Legolas taking Orcrist and using it for almost the entirety of B5A, because apparently letting Thorin use his own sword was just too much for Jackson. -_-

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sting?


The riddles go by so fast I can barely catch any unsolved.

That's correct.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Agree with Sting as most likely, though writing Bilbo off as 'kinsman of the hero' amuses me. ^_^ Maybe [s]Biter[/s] Orcrist instead? It may have been found by one of the other dwarves before being given to Thorin.

... I've just been reminded that the movies have Legolas taking Orcrist and using it for almost the entirety of B5A, because apparently letting Thorin use his own sword was just too much for Jackson. -_-

hS

I was focusing on LoTR-verse for the most part, and Bilbo wasn't one there.


Sorry.


P.S: Since when can Orcrist foretell when the enemies approach?

[Pervinca Took]

Glamdring and Orcrist both glitter blue when orcs are near. They're of elvish make and from the same hoard as Sting.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Glamdring and Orcrist both glitter blue when orcs are near. They're of elvish make and from the same hoard as Sting.

It "gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached" (The Hobbit).

Which, come to think of it, makes a certain sense for a blade of Gondolin. It's the ultimate early-warning system: if Morgoth ever finds the city and sends his armies, the king's own sword(s) will let him know about it.

(Of course, for that to work they would have to detect Orcs as far away as the Echoriath, which must be multiple miles. Given that neither Glamdring nor Sting picked up on the Orcs infesting Moria until the Fellowship could already hear them, I guess the enchantment must have faded over the ages?)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Glamdring and Orcrist both glitter blue when orcs are near. They're of elvish make and from the same hoard as Sting.

Didn't know that.



Did you know that there is a fan theory that all three of those were made by Maeglin?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Did you know that there is a fan theory that all three of those were made by Maeglin?

Ooh! Tell me more!

I'm guessing it's partly because his father was a swordsmith and the only named maker of enchanted (well, cursed) blades?

It would also make a twisted, evil sense for Maeglin to make swords to specifically detect Orcs - it would focus everyone's attention on that one possible enemy, letting him be wicked without undue suspicion. But perhaps this is an overly-uncharitable view of Maeglin.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ooh! Tell me more!

I'm guessing it's partly because his father was a swordsmith and the only named maker of enchanted (well, cursed) blades?

It would also make a twisted, evil sense for Maeglin to make swords to specifically detect Orcs - it would focus everyone's attention on that one possible enemy, letting him be wicked without undue suspicion. But perhaps this is an overly-uncharitable view of Maeglin.

hS

Sure. This theory also states that he made them to help Orcs rather than hinder them, with the blue light that the swords emitted serving as a homing beacon.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Sure. This theory also states that he made them to help Orcs rather than hinder them, with the blue light that the swords emitted serving as a homing beacon.

Oh. Oh, wow. That's even more evil than I expected.

It seems Maeglin was noted for forging swords 'of steel stronger than had been seen before' (Tolkien Gateway), so it certainly makes sense. And the fact that Glamdring and Orcrist were a mated pair, like Anglachel and Anguirel made by Eol, fits neatly. Oh, and Anglachel glowed... There's certainly more evidence than my 'Nellas is Legolas' mother' theory, for instance.

hS

[Urwen]

Anyway, let's wait for the new riddle.

[Galadriel55]

Coming right up in an hour or so

[Galadriel55]

In the tradition of fast riddles:


If you think me plain,
You'll get what you give.

An eye for an eye,
A limb for a limb.
I'll double your riches and match you for distance,
To stars in the heavens I'll add in their brilliance,
But bad won't be good, and thick won't be thin.

But I can do more,
I'll whisk you away
On a single condition,
If you aren't afraid.
You give me trust and you'll get back much more.
Just take care - you won't be the same as before.

[Huinesoron]

This feels like a reflection; the mention of stars makes me think of Mirrormere and Durin's Crown, but the third stanza doesn't seem to match that, so I'm not sure.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This feels like a reflection; the mention of stars makes me think of Mirrormere and Durin's Crown, but the third stanza doesn't seem to match that, so I'm not sure.

hS

Go on.

(To clarify - it's not Mirrowmere)

[Huinesoron]

Okay... 'whisk you away' sounds like a river, but I'm having trouble reconciling 'reflection' with 'fast-flowing'. Tolkien liked to put reflections on perfectly still water (Mirrormere, Aeluin), not on flowing rivers.

And that second-to-last line really has me baffled. It could just be an expansion on the theme that taking a journey widens your world, but it feels more mystical than that. The only explicitly magical rivers I can think of are the Withywindle (which won't 'whisk you away') and the Forest River of Mirkwood (which I don't think reflected anything, due to the... y'know, murk).

Anduin, on general principles?

hS

[Urwen]

Makes me think of Mirror of Galadriel.