Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Dwarves?

[Huinesoron]

Not dwarves.

You're looking for a specific sequence of events that ties the whole thing together.

hS

[Urwen]

Three houses of Men, then?


Red-faced makes me think of Caranthir, to whom Uldor and his sons swored fealty, but ended up betraying him and allying with Melkor instead.

[Huinesoron]

You are most definitely on the right track.

Edit: All right, to be more fair: Caranthir, Uldor and his sons are the answer to the first half of the riddle. But can you tell me why, specifically, I used the words I did?

(Also the second half, obviously...!)

hS

[Urwen]

All right


Ugly they named us, the Red-Faced and his kin
Insulting our lands, our hair and our beards
Naming us Betrayer behind welcoming grins
Is it any wonder we turned out as they feared?


Ulfang and his sons swore allegiance to Caranthir, whom the first line refers to. Now, I don't have a book nearby, and the online sources are scarce on this matter, but I assume that Feanorians mistrusted Ulfang and his sons from the beginning, and tried to hide it. This made them bitter, which enabled Morgoth to sway them by promising them the lands that were kept from them as a result of aforementioned mistrust, if they helped him. So they did.



Faithful they named us, the Red and Gold together
The shield, the flame-brand, the wide open vale
Welcoming our people as kinfolk forever
Is it any wonder we were loyal without fail?


Now this second stanza describes the other mannish house mentioned: the house of Bor. Maedhros (red) and Maglor (Gold) named him Bor (which probably means faithful) because of his loyalty, and his sons' names also had that root.

[Huinesoron]

Pretty much correct! The riddle refers to the two tribes of Easterlings, under Ulfang and Bor, and their eventual fates.

But... there's no evidence Caranthir mistrusted Ulfang and company. Do you fancy trying to figure out what I'm going on about with that - and explaining those second lines along the way? (And, for that matter, 'ugly'...)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I want to explain those too, really, but I can't. You see, the thing is, there is very little information regarding Ulfang and Bor and their houses in the book, and there is also very little information online as well.


Do you know about any website that gives more info about them? If I had more info, I think I'll be able to fill the gaps.

[Huinesoron]

I don't really know much about them either, just their names (and their fates). But... that's kind of all I needed to know.

You got most of the way there with Bor and the three Feanorians. Just extrapolate a little further...

hS

[Urwen]

Or I could just take the turn?

[Huinesoron]

Go for it!

It was all one extended Sindarin joke. 'Ulfang' probably wasn't written to be Sindarin, but translates perfectly as 'hideous (=ugly) beard'. Similarly, Uldor, Ulfast, and Ulwarth come out as Ugly Land, Ugly Hair, and Ugly Betrayer. The idea behind the riddle is that this is how the Noldor would have interpreted the names.

Bor, as you said, is 'faithful', and Borlach, Borlad, and Borthand can be read as Faithful-Flame, -Lowland, and -Shield. The fact that the Faithful house remained loyal while the Ugly house rebelled... well, it was too much fun to miss.

Okay, enough out of me: go Urwen!

hS

[Urwen]

Hope this one is to your liking as well



I saw your life dangle on the strings
Yet I was unable to do a single thing
I watched as you became a sacrifice
Of a bloody war


There was someone else
I chose to give my love to
But she turned away from me
Because she fell in love with another


Despite knowing she couldn't love me as I was
I supported her all the same
I tried to warn her that the man she loved had darkness within
As shown by his chosen name


But she didn't listen
And ultimately, she was taken away
I, who still loved her
Was left behind to decay


I wanted to protect both you and her
But in the end, I couldn't do either
I just hope that when the three of us meet again
You'd both forgive me and release me from my pain

[Pervinca Took]

Is this the guy who loved Finduilas? Gwindor, if I recall correctly, who also gave his (comradely) love to Turin?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Is this the guy who loved Finduilas? Gwindor, if I recall correctly, who also gave his (comradely) love to Turin?

You got two elements of the riddle, including the answer, but as the extra challenge. can you tell who is the 'you' in the riddle.

[Pervinca Took]

I thought 'you' was Finduilas.

Ah ... no. She's the 'she' of verse 2.

Am not sure without looking it up ... is the 'you' Beleg?

[Urwen]

No. I sorta drew inspiration from this when I wrote the the riddle.


EDIT: Maybe this would help: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gwindor


Check his biographical information there, and you'll know who 'you' is.

[Huinesoron]

Is 'you' Gwindor's brother - Gelmir, I think? He was executed by Morgoth's army in front of the Nargothrond host, and Gwin's reckless charge in response led to the disaster of the Nirnaeth and his own capture.

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah. It's Pervinca's turn, I believe.

[Pervinca Took]

It was a lovely poem, Urwen. And that YouTube cartoon you linked to looks beautiful. I will watch it when I have a little more time.

I've never written a riddle before, unless you count my 'pubs and inns' password. If I can't think of one quickly enough, I'd be happy for Huinesoron to have the next go. But I will try.

[Urwen]

How long until you will give the turn to him?

[Pervinca Took]

Well, I have something I originally wrote as a filk. I could try it as a riddle.

[Pervinca Took]

OK - just don't hit me if you don't like filks, OK? This is not me trying to pass off Pink Floyd's work as my own - just a humble tribute to two masterpieces instead of one:

SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMOND

Remember when you were young,
You shone like the sun:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Then came that look in your eyes
Weary, hunted and wise:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
You were speared on a hilltop
In terror and combat,
Rode on a sea of pain.
Come on, you target for conspirers’ laughter!
Come on, you legend, you hero, you martyr, and shine!

You took up the gauntlet:
Fared forth in the dark
Shine on you crazy diamond!
Threatened by shadows at night
And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Well you wore out your heart’s strength
With deadly precision,
And broke on a mountain’s peak;
Come on, you quester, you seer of visions,
Come on, you vessel of light never darkling
And shine!

Where are you roaming tonight?
How near or how far?
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Pile on many more years
And I’ll be joining you there:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
And we’ll bask in the glory of yesterday’s triumph
And weep on Cormallen’s field!
Come on, you dreamer
You winner and loser!
Come on you deep one, you thinker, you muser
And shine!


SO -

Who might sing this?
To whom?
And what would the verses/lines refer to?

[Huinesoron]

Well... Cormallen points me at the War of the Ring, and the only person I know of who was 'speared' is Frodo Baggins.

Which works pretty well with the rest of the poem:

Remember when you were young,
You shone like the sun:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Then came that look in your eyes
Weary, hunted and wise:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

A general summary of Frodo's path. The repeated 'diamond' refrain can refer to the white gem he received from ?Arwen right at the end of the story.

You were speared on a hilltop
In terror and combat,
Rode on a sea of pain.

A combination of two references: Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop (and rode - by himself - over Bruinen despite his pain), but was later speared in Moria.

Come on, you target for conspirers’ laughter!

The Conspiracy Unmasked, of course.

Come on, you legend, you hero, you martyr, and shine!

This is more accurate outside the Shire than within; in that country, Bilbo was more of a legend than his nephew. But in Gondor, yes.

You took up the gauntlet:
Fared forth in the dark
Shine on you crazy diamond!

Frodo swore to bear the Ring, and I believe left Rivendell at sunset.

Threatened by shadows at night

The Nazgul.

And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

'There is nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire', as he said.

Well you wore out your heart’s strength
With deadly precision,
And broke on a mountain’s peak;

Welcome to Mordor. 'Deadly precision' really does sum up Frodo's grinding-down during the final stages of the journey, and in the end he did break.

Come on, you quester, you seer of visions,
Come on, you vessel of light never darkling
And shine!

Frodo has multiple visionary moments - in Bombadil's house, at Bruinen, in Lorien, on Amon Hen, and in Mordor (possibly others too). The 'vessel of light' refers both to him, and to the Phial of Galadriel.

Where are you roaming tonight?
How near or how far?
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Pile on many more years
And I’ll be joining you there:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
And we’ll bask in the glory of yesterday’s triumph
And weep on Cormallen’s field!
Come on, you dreamer
You winner and loser!
Come on you deep one, you thinker, you muser
And shine!

This verse answers the third question: who is the Singer? Well, Frodo is walking the roads of the Lonely Isle tonight, and after many years and the death of his beloved Mistress Rose, it is Samwise Gamgee who will join him there.

'You winner and loser' is a perfect summary of Frodo's journey, while 'dreamer, deep one, thinker, muser' is equally perfect as a description of his character.

How'd I do?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Fantastically! There are some ideas and insights there that I hadn't thought of, a few missed and a few answered differently but well.

I will give itemised feedback when I have a little more time .. could you just hold on to your next riddle until then? I'll try to do it today.

Just for now, though, Finduilas was speared too. And Celebrimbor (after death, at least).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Fantastically! There are some ideas and insights there that I hadn't thought of, a few missed and a few answered differently but well.

I will give itemised feedback when I have a little more time .. could you just hold on to your next riddle until then? I'll try to do it today.

Just for now, though, Finduilas was speared too. And Celebrimbor (after death, at least).

Perfectly happy to wait (I haven't written it yet anyway... ). I think there was a bit of spear action around the Riders of Rohan, too (plus of course Gil-Galad was famously a spear-wielder); I kind of compressed my thought process, since I was really looking at Third Age + spear + mountain to get Frodo.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

H

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well... Cormallen points me at the War of the Ring, and the only person I know of who was 'speared' is Frodo Baggins.

Which works pretty well with the rest of the poem:

A general summary of Frodo's path. The repeated 'diamond' refrain can refer to the white gem he received from ?Arwen right at the end of the story.

I don't think I thought of Arwen's gem at all, actually. The constant repetition of 'Shine on' in the original song automatically made me think of Frodo, because of the light that is said to shine within him, and which is noticed and commented on by Gandalf and Sam. I kept 'crazy diamond' because it's in the original song (which I find incredibly moving, both in reference to the late Syd Barrett *and* in the way I find it applicable to Frodo). Plus the 'crazy' bit feels like an affectionate way of Sam acknowledging that 'It's beyond any Gamgee to know what he'll do next.' As Tolkien said, there was an aspect of Sam that 'prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved.'

A combination of two references: Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop (and rode - by himself - over Bruinen despite his pain), but was later speared in Moria.

Ah yes - he did indeed ride alone over Bruinen!

I was using the phrase 'sea of pain' metaphorically, though, for the 17 days he bore the splinter (although I don't think he would have felt it for the last 2 or 3, when he was unconscious). I wanted him to 'ride' on something (metaphorically) because the original lyrics go 'Rode on a steel breeze,' (a reference to a steel guitar/steel strings, I think).

Although - silly me - he was riding on something anyway! First Bill, and then Asfaloth.

I also used 'spear' metaphorically, just to mean impaled/pierced/stabbed with something, which is what a spear does. Mainly for euphony - it sounds nicer than 'stabbed.' So 'speared on a hilltop' refers exclusively to the wounding at Weathertop.

[quote]The Conspiracy Unmasked, of course.[/I]

Correct interpretation of 'victim of conspirers' laughter' - again, it's a tweaking of the original lyrics, which I think referred to Syd's vulnerability to laughter from the audience - I'm sure I once read something to that effect.

This is more accurate outside the Shire than within; in that country, Bilbo was more of a legend than his nephew. But in Gondor, yes.

Just the fact that he IS a legend - and Sam at least (and Gondor) knew it.

'Martyr' is in the original lyrics too - but reflects the fact that his heroism was of a sacrificial nature. I kind of imagine Sam using the term with a slightly wry affection.

Frodo swore to bear the Ring, and I believe left Rivendell at sunset.

Correct for the 'gauntlet' bit - 'fared forth in the dark' was I think I general comment on the darkness of his road, ('the darkest road' - Aragorn at Cormallen) and how little known the way ahead or how on earth the quest would be achieved was. I might have been thinking about them leaving at sunset too - can't remember.

Threatened by shadows at night

The Nazgul.

Quote:
And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

'There is nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire', as he said.

Maybe … I think it was a reference to the terrible last days of Ringbearing, when even 'sleep [was] uneasy, full of dreams of fire, and waking brought him no comfort' either.

Welcome to Mordor. 'Deadly precision' really does sum up Frodo's grinding-down during the final stages of the journey, and in the end he did break.

Yes, and the fact that, as Tolkien said, every drop of his power of mind and body was 'just enough to take him to [Mount Doom] and no further.'

That's the deadly precision: it was exactly enough for the quest to succeed, but not enough for him to be able to succeed by an act of will, recover and live in peace in his own country again.

Frodo has multiple visionary moments - in Bombadil's house, at Bruinen, in Lorien, on Amon Hen, and in Mordor (possibly others too). The 'vessel of light' refers both to him, and to the Phial of Galadriel.

All accurate. Again, Frodo becoming 'like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.' I was most likely thinking of the Phial he bore as well, as you say.

And as Paul Kocher pointed out, no-one dreams as much (or as prophetically?) as he does.

… who is the Singer? Well, Frodo is walking the roads of the Lonely Isle tonight, and after many years and the death of his beloved Mistress Rose, it is Samwise Gamgee who will join him there.

Quite.

'You winner and loser' is a perfect summary of Frodo's journey, while 'dreamer, deep one, thinker, muser' is equally perfect as a description of his character.

Yes - he lost everything, in a sense: health, home, peace of mind, friends (because he had to leave them) … I know he gained (won) other things afterwards, but it doesn't alter the fact that he sacrificed the future he most wanted. And he won/helped save things for others to enjoy.

Yes, he 'technically' or in one sense lost the battle against the Ring, because it was not possible for one not divine to win it. But he won the quest through his endurance, pity and humility - and with help from Sam and Gollum (and distraction from Aragorn and Co).

I really love this song.

Not as much as I love Frodo. But I love it.

Over to you, Huinesoron!

[Huinesoron]

Pervinca, I could tell there was more detail than I was catching, but I couldn't guess just how much more. That's really impressive!

Moving along to something much less ornate:

That which lives has come to life;
That which drinks is set to eat;
That which brings sleep is put to sleep.

hS

[Urwen]

The last line makes me think of Gulduin, though it's probably not the answer.


Also, do all three lines refer to the same thing?

[Huinesoron]

Yep, the whole riddle refers to a single thing, and specifically to a series of events related to it. Not Gulduin, though.

('Thing' should not be taken to imply for or against it being a character.)

hS

PS: I assume 'Gulduin' here is the Enchanted River in Mirkwood? That seems to be what the MERP used it for.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

PS: I assume 'Gulduin' here is the Enchanted River in Mirkwood? That seems to be what the MERP used it for.

Yeah.


My next guess is Bilbo


That which lives has come to life - he was thought dead by people in the Shire during the quest for Erebor, but 'came back to life' because no one in the Shire knew he was alive the whole time
That which drinks is set to eat - not sure about this one
That which brings sleep is put to sleep - probably something to do with Gulduin, as it's the only thing I can think of which brings sleep

[Huinesoron]

It isn't Bilbo, and the sleep has nothing to do with the Enchanted River in Mirkwood.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It isn't Bilbo, and the sleep has nothing to do with the Enchanted River in Mirkwood.

hS

But what else brings sleep?

[Huinesoron]

The answer to the riddle. ^_^

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is it something to do with the dwarves sleeping until Eru allowed them to waken?

[Huinesoron]

It is not. Much later than that.

hS

[Urwen]

The Eye of Sauron? The eye that never sleeps was finally put to sleep by being destroyed?

[Pervinca Took]

Glaurung?

[Huinesoron]

Neither Sauron nor Glaurung, though you're right to be looking at malevolent entities.

Both instances of sleep are literal, not death.

hS

[Urwen]

Think I got it, it's none other than Ole Man Willowy


That which lives has come to life - He is a sentient tree
That which drinks is set to eat - trees 'drink' water from the ground and he almost 'ate' the hobbits
That which brings sleep is put to sleep - He makes hobbits fall asleep in order to 'eat' them, then is put to sleep himself later

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Think I got it, it's none other than Ole Man Willowy


That which lives has come to life - He is a sentient tree
That which drinks is set to eat - trees 'drink' water from the ground and he almost 'ate' the hobbits
That which brings sleep is put to sleep - He makes hobbits fall asleep in order to 'eat' them, then is put to sleep himself later

Correct! And with all the details too. Over to you, Urwen.

hS

[Urwen]

Actually, I think I'll cash that one for later, as I've come up with a better one


Firstborn daughter,
Secondborn child
I brought forth laughter
As I ran wild

My life was cut short
By the ill-gotten fumes
But I was the lucky one
As the future would prove

My siblings outlived me
As you could plainly see
My mortal life might be gone
But in exchange, my soul escaped from the Dark One