Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Yeah, here is another quickie inspired by Huinesoron's riddle


We caught our prey
During the night so grey
But with the dawn of the day
Forever we'll stay

Now can you find the way
And who we are say?

[Pervinca Took]

The three trolls?

[Urwen]

Whether the riddle-maker or riddle guesser
The riddles are still well-made
And mine is well-made, little fella
As well-made as yours


And so they said, and so they said
Bert and Tom, and Will
But now the sun shines over their statues
And no one can hear.....






Well done, and over to you

[Pervinca Took]

I can't think of one right now ... would anyone else like to try? I have a few deadlines making annoying noises at me.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I can't think of one right now ... would anyone else like to try? I have a few deadlines making annoying noises at me.

I am giving people 48 hours to step up, if no one does, I will again.

[Huinesoron]

Well, to avoid you having to do two in a row, here's one in a rather different style:

I saw this thing once:
A pillar dark with eyes of flame,
A pillar bright with sword of light,
And between them a fall of silver,
Of hope lost and hope reclaimed.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I haven't forgotten about this riddle, I just don't have any good ideas. I love the way it sounds though, it's great imagery!

To push things forward though, how about Sauron's fight with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't forgotten about this riddle, I just don't have any good ideas. I love the way it sounds though, it's great imagery!

To push things forward though, how about Sauron's fight with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

None of those people are invol-- no, wait.

None of those people are presen-- hang on.

None of those people are physically present for the incident (and it is a specific incident) in question.

That'll do it. ^_^

hS

[Galadriel55]

Possibly Frodo looking afar from Amon Hen? Not sure what the pillar bright is, but tower dark sounds like "an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep".

[Huinesoron]

You're actually... really close with that, despite being in completely the wrong place. ^_^ You've definitely hit the themes correctly, and the right persons are... let's say referenced, for (un)clarity.

hS

[Urwen]

It's been several months, so......


Hint please?

[Huinesoron]

I'd forgotten about this! Okay, hints, hints... well, both Frodo and Sauron are referenced in the incident, though not physically present. And the 'pillars' are both people.

hS

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....I think I know what it is, but just to be sure......


Does 'physically present' mean 'present in your own body'?


Or to put it in another way, if a person went to 'Otherworld', as I call it, would they still be 'physically present'?

[Huinesoron]

I can see where you're going with that, but no, in this case I just meant that they're not there at all, just referred to.

There are a lot of resonances between the standoff at the Fords of Bruinen and the scene I'm thinking of, though; now that you've brought the link to mind, I think it might well be deliberate on Tolkien's part.

hS

[Urwen]

Gandalf vs Balrog of Moria fight after their fall, with 'Silver' being 'Silvertine' aka 'Zirakzigil'?

[Huinesoron]

Not that one either, though I'm shocked that you found something that fits the riddle as well as the real answer.

However, Gandalf is indeed the pillar bright (and Glamdring his sword). You're a third of the way there!

hS

[Galadriel55]

I was initially convinced that Pillar Dark was Sauron, but I now realize that his "eye" would probably be singular in that case. You just don't think of Third Age Sauron with a pair of eyes.


So, how about Gandalf stopping the Nazgul from entering the gate of Minas Tirith? The most probable watcher is then Pippin... but it doesn't fit quite well with one of your previous hints.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I was initially convinced that Pillar Dark was Sauron, but I now realize that his "eye" would probably be singular in that case. You just don't think of Third Age Sauron with a pair of eyes.

So, how about Gandalf stopping the Nazgul from entering the gate of Minas Tirith? The most probable watcher is then Pippin... but it doesn't fit quite well with one of your previous hints.

Later than that.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, only two instances fit in that case: Gandalf vs MoS or Gandalf vs Denethor.


And I'll say the former is closer, so I guess the former.

[Huinesoron]

I saw this thing once:
A pillar dark with eyes of flame,
A pillar bright with sword of light,
And between them a fall of silver,
Of hope lost and hope reclaimed.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, only two instances fit in that case: Gandalf vs MoS or Gandalf vs Denethor.

And I'll say the former is closer, so I guess the former.

Correct, Urwen! The relevant passages are:

Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens

At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’

...

The Messenger put these aside, and there to the wonder and dismay of all the Captains he held up first the short sword that Sam had carried, and next a grey cloak with an elven-brooch, and last the coat of mithril-mail that Frodo had worn wrapped in his tattered garments.

...

‘These we will take!’ said Gandalf suddenly. He cast aside his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place. Before his upraised hand the foul Messenger recoiled, and Gandalf coming seized and took from him the tokens: coat, cloak, and sword. ‘These we will take in memory of our friend,’ he cried. ‘But as for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you. We did not come here to waste words in treating with Sauron, faithless and accursed; still less with one of his slaves. Begone!’

'A pillar dark with eyes of flame' is the Mouth astride his fire-eyed horse. 'A pillar bright with sword of light' is Gandalf with his white light that 'shone forth like a sword'. The 'fall of silver' that lies between them is Frodo's mail of mithril, true-silver, that ripples like a waterfall. And while at first it seems that even Gandalf has lost hope and been defeated when the tokens are revealed, he reclaims both them and the initiative in the end.

(With, of course, a sly reference to the various 'hope' lines throughout the story, but mostly to Gandalf's succinct version that I think is original to the films: "There is still hope.")

hS

[Urwen]

Here is one that I hope is equally creative


The sea is a part of me
And I am a part of the sea
Fear once ruled me
But I managed to overcome it, you see


Darkness claimed me
For its own
My hope was lost
But they'll reap what they've sown


Because through it all
My heart remained true
My will remained steadfast
And my patience was at its end


Great fire burned at that time
One that was easily distinguished
My spirit might have left it all behind
But the flame in my heart wasn't extinguished

[Urwen]

No takers?

[Galadriel55]

That's a good one, HS! I thought it had a great ring to it as a poem, and it makes perfect sense when you know the answer.

Originally Posted by Urwen

No takers?

Well give us a chance to even check the site! Patience, please!

My first instinct here is Earendil. Not a perfect fit but gotta get it out of the way.

[Huinesoron]

My first thought is Osse, the Maia of the sea who at one point turned to the Dark before coming back. Except that doesn't really work with the second half... it could be a duet between Osse (first 2 verses) and Uinen (last 2), with the fire being the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.

After that I thought of Earendil, but I'm worried we're being distracted by the presence of the Sea at the beginning. Focussing on the later parts, how about Gondolin?

The sea is a part of me
And I am a part of the sea

"Remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."

Fear once ruled me
But I managed to overcome it, you see

The Gondolindrim sat the Sudden Flame out to avoid being found by Morgoth, but overcame that and rode to the Unnumbered Tears.

Darkness claimed me
For its own
My hope was lost
But they'll reap what they've sown

The Fall of Gondolin, of course, and the fact that Earendil came from Gondolin to ultimately bring about Morgoth's downfall.

Because through it all
My heart remained true
My will remained steadfast
And my patience was at its end

'Steadfast' could point at Voronwe the Faithful, who was a resident of Gondolin. Not sure about 'patience', unless we're back to the Unnumbered Tears again.

Great fire burned at that time
One that was easily distinguished

I mean... yes, it did.

My spirit might have left it all behind
But the flame in my heart wasn't extinguished

While the people of Gondolin (its 'spirit') have fled, they still carry the memory of it in their hearts.

hS

[Urwen]

Not Earendil, or Gondolin. It's a person, and the patience bit is something spoken in the book in regards to them.


P.S: You're right in that you shouldn't be focusing on the sea too much. It's more of an etymology thing.

[Huinesoron]

It'd be quite a dark answer, but Ar-Pharazon? He definitely gets impatient, and from his own perspective, he remains 'true' and 'faithful', 'overcoming fear' to assail the Undying Lands and make them 'reap what they sowed' in not granting Men access. He's also not exactly dead, hence the 'flame in my heart' part.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope, much earlier than that.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so: Great Fires of the First Age:

-The Kinslaying at Alqualonde (probably)
-The Sun
-The Battle of the Sudden Flame
-The Fall of Gondolin
-Possibly the War of Wrath (if it's referring to Ancalagon's death)

People whose names are associated with the sea:

-Earwen, wife of Finarfin
-Earendil
-...

I have to guess Earwen, but I don't think she works. That 'fear once ruled me' line doesn't fit anything I know about her. Also, she probably bends the focus too far back towards the actual Sea.

hS

[Urwen]

Nope. See, you're making a mistake of focusing on 'great fires'.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Nope. See, you're making a mistake of focusing on 'great fires'.

Sooooo, I can't focus on the sea or the fires; that leaves... hearts? Darkness?

...

Feanor? He has the advantage of actually being dead, plus, y'know, 'Spirit of Fire'. And he was most certainly impatient.

hS

(Look, it was him or Joseph Conrad...)

[Urwen]

No, I said you shouldn't be focusing on 'great fires'. What I meant by that is that there are other fires too. 'Great fires' have significance for the world as a whole, while this particular fire has significance only to the person in question (and one of their kinsmen)


And not Feanor. I don't see how is his etymology related to the sea, or the ocean, in any way.



I am trying to help, but it's difficult to do without giving away the answer completely.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I am trying to help, but it's difficult to do without giving away the answer completely.

Hey, no, this is good. Like Bilbo with Gollum's final riddle, I'm able to find lots of answers that mostly fit, but haven't yet come upon one which fits perfectly.

How about Nienor Niniel? 'Maid of Tears' has a salt-water connection to the sea, and her encounter with Glaurung would explain both 'fear once ruled' and 'darkness claimed'. She remained faithful to Turin under both names (though in different ways), and she was definitely impatient (the Silm doesn't have a precise quote, but the Narn might). This would make Glaurung the great fire, who at that time wasn't really bothering anyone other than the Children of Hurin when they went to hassle him.

hS

[Urwen]

Not Nienor, but you're getting closer.


(And before someone says it, no, not Turin or Lalaith either)

[Urwen]

Bump?

[Huinesoron]

Aha! Is it Aerin of Dor Lomin?

The sea is a part of me
And I am a part of the sea

I didn't know this, but the 'aer' in her name is a Sindarin word for 'ocean' (as in 'Belgaer').

Fear once ruled me
But I managed to overcome it, you see

Having been taken as a slave-wife, Aerin rebelled against Brodda to help Morwen.

Darkness claimed me
For its own
My hope was lost
But they'll reap what they've sown

Like I said, slave-wife. Brodda the Easterling was a follower of Ulfang the Black, which adds an extra layer to 'darkness'.

Because through it all
My heart remained true
My will remained steadfast
And my patience was at its end

I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), but the first three lines definitely apply, and the fourth seems not implausible.

Great fire burned at that time
One that was easily distinguished
My spirit might have left it all behind
But the flame in my heart wasn't extinguished

Aerin eventually died by burning herself alive after Turin killed Brodda, because... apparently the House of Hador just can't have nice things. As a bonus, her name is an anagram for Arien, the Maia of the Sun, who can be the 'flame in my heart'.

I have an actual good feeling about this one.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Hey, I think that might be it.

Aerin did burn herself alive and the house with her, because she wasn't going to be treqted kindly at all after Turin's visit and this was her final act of rebellion. And what you said about the House of Hador.

Aas for patience, I believe one of Turin's companions tells him during their escape from Dor Lomin not to mistake Aerin's patience for frailty, or some such.

Good catch!

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Aha! Is it Aerin of Dor Lomin?



I didn't know this, but the 'aer' in her name is a Sindarin word for 'ocean' (as in 'Belgaer').



Having been taken as a slave-wife, Aerin rebelled against Brodda to help Morwen.



Like I said, slave-wife. Brodda the Easterling was a follower of Ulfang the Black, which adds an extra layer to 'darkness'.



I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), but the first three lines definitely apply, and the fourth seems not implausible.



Aerin eventually died by burning herself alive after Turin killed Brodda, because... apparently the House of Hador just can't have nice things. As a bonus, her name is an anagram for Arien, the Maia of the Sun, who can be the 'flame in my heart'.

I have an actual good feeling about this one.

hS

That's exactly what I had in mind. You're up.

[Huinesoron]

Ugly they named us, the Red-Faced and his kin
Insulting our lands, our hair and our beards
Naming us Betrayer behind welcoming grins
Is it any wonder we turned out as they feared?

Faithful they named us, the Red and Gold together
The shield, the flame-brand, the wide open vale
Welcoming our people as kinfolk forever
Is it any wonder we were loyal without fail?

Good luck...!

hS

[Urwen]

Sounds like two different groups of people, and the second group are Rohirrim.

[Huinesoron]

Kind of two different groups of people (depending on how broadly you want 'different' to apply), but not the Rohirrim. The two halves of the riddle are connected.

hS