WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I understand what you're saying, McCaber- in normal conditions I NEVER kill my packmates. It's practically my number one rule as a baddie. But in this game one of your mates is against you and so long as he is alive you're very vulnerable. The traitor can take down the entire Forge, particularly if he finds his sweetheart and the both of them are trying to lynch the same people during the day (the other people in the village would definitely catch on if KD & Sweetheart do a joint attack, and it wouldn't count as revealing either because there'd be no way for a common player to know which is which- the two of them would basically be unstoppable).

Don't know about that bit– Folwren was explicit that "almost-reveals" would count as reveals– it was discussed on the Admin thread.

Originally Posted by phantom

May as well try to make it alone, especially if you're someone like me that believes you will pull it off. Like I said- no Seer to be scared of, so no reason for a forceful and active player to be nervous if he thinks he can influence the vote enough to stay alive each day.

While this is basically a "good votes are bad votes" argument, it does make sense in this particular situation.

However, phantom, I'm pretty sure you're the only person Bomwolf accused, so....?

[Mithalwen]

Ah but Nerwen is not the trick to try and play the same regardless of role? Not that I have ever succeeded really with a special role... tends to bring on melt down. Very frustrating to be so suspected for doing exactly what you normally do..though on that occasion I did happen to be a woluf. Others must be able to perceive a difference whatever I think...like what they say about trying to act drunk - people try to fall over forgetting that a drunk is trying very hard to stay upright...anyway digression...

On the subject of Mc Caber is this sort of thing normal? Because it seems odd to me to just jump on other people's work ... I can't obviously object to a G55 vote since I have stated her suspicious but voting after spending what time he had looking at Bom and then seeming to claim the credit for finding G55 suspicious looks fishy to me. Or more accurately wolvish... and I am sorry Phantom I am not going to avoid the term - in this set up we are all dwarves so it is a bit simpler than saying Members of the Valley Forge . I can't help thinking a wolf might jump on TP's plan. As has been pointed wolf on wolf attacks have a different dynamic this game. And to get an early vote in for a fellow wolf might look good too. So hmmm Now I may be being thick but I had assumed the 4 members of the Forge included the KD? IF it doesn't with Glirdan out we certainly can't rest on our laurels. If it does it does leave more scope for there being more than one devil may care wolf.

Rikae... don't know... I find her hard to read...but I seem to remember a certain amount of feistyness so ...not TOO worried.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

"He", not "she". Just letting you know.

Oops. Thanks for the correction.

Originally Posted by the phantom

It is entirely possible that this particular group of baddies is more likely than any Werewolf pack to purposefully try and lynch one another during the day!!

Now duh, of course we knew the KD was working against them, but what about the others? All they know is that THEY are not the traitor, where as every one of their fellows is potentially a double agent.

I'd already considered this possibility. As McCaber said, though, killing one another by Day is a pretty high-risk tactic, unless they see some very convincing evidence that of them could be the KD. I didn't see anything like that from Bom yesterDay.

Originally Posted by the phantom

So, without a Seer or Hunter to fear, it seems to me that the logical play would be to kill the other Forge members. And in fact accusing all three of your fellow members might be a smart play as it would make them extremely unlikely to turn against you, as they might fear that you are the KD and killing you would expose them.

But wouldn't that mean the KD was going along with your proposed (and abandoned by consensus) strategy?

Originally Posted by the phantom

All right- what do the rest of you think? If I was a Forge member I'd probably kill all the others and win it by myself.

And this goes back to the age-old discussion "I wouldn't do that if I was evil!!"

But if you want an answer, fine. Personally, I don't like the idea of being a lone wolf. Winning that way would seem more chancy.

[Mithalwen]

Interesting use of tense there Inzil, don't not wouldn't...?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Interesting use of tense there Inzil, don't not wouldn't...?

And I thought I was a pedant.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

This seems likely to me– nothing she said seems like an obvious Ranger-hint. (Ahem! I'm afraid can't help recalling here a Mithwolf some games back explaining just why the pack killed Shasta...)

I noticed that too. She's a speculative creature, it's true, but this seems like baddie speculation, eerily similar to the game(s) you mention.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And I thought I was a pedant.

Oh you have no idea - I can take most people's pedantry and raise with confidence.

Speculation is the name of the game. And this time it is speculation as it happens.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Pitch is acting abnormal toDay

You should have been there in Finland to hear Shastawolf cry out: "What happened to Mr Agreeable?!"

But, you know, your attempt there remarkably fits one of the possible reactions I'd expect from a Forger who has just lost a packmate - try to make the best from the loss by spinning it against those who brought xem down. Rikae might qualify as well with her suggestion that Bom could have been the KD - luckily, that seems to be off the table now (and thanks to Nerwen for making a point of what I'd said before her). Nice try though.

OK, now Foley's new ruling about not revealing the KD at death changes the dynamics a bit. Still, if the Forgers kill one of their own at Night, we won't need a map to identify his role - especially because the Sweetheart, once she's found him, would die along with him: 1 dead Forger + 1 other death = 1 KD. On the other hand, if the Sweetheart is killed, the KD gets his revenge kill and is also as good as revealed.
So, Sweetie-pie, if you're feeling noble and romantic and wouldn't mind risking your life for an innocent victory, you might want to find your Ironfist quickly, if you haven't yet. It depends of course on the numbers, whether we can still afford losing two innocent lives in one kill or not.

What this means for Forger tactics is that I think they'd be more likely to try and get the KD (whoever they think he is) lynched instead of going for him at Night, because they can't know whether the Sweetheart has already found him or not. Which, sadly, means that Forge-on-Forge votes will probably become more frequent now.

What this means for the KD: please be sure to leave hints to help us identify you if you get mislynched, especially if you have reason to think the other Forgers have found you out. You'll have to walk a fine line between hinting and forbidden revealing, but I hope you can think of something.
That said, I expect the other Forgers to try to confuse us by leaving hints of their own. But then, I think the real KD would have tried to hint (to the Sweetheart, if nobody else) well before all this.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ha ha, no, I didn't think you were sucking up. Quite the opposite- I figured you were addressing me as carefully as possible according to your formulas involving me not being able to read you directly and also opening up an opportunity for you to read me etc. In a way the attitude felt copied and pasted from other Day 1s when you've spoken to me.

Heh, if only you had the formula.

Come on now, you know you can't lie (truths that don't lead to THE truth is a different, of course). You weren't serious about that KD stuff yesterday, just using some nice fodder for talk?

There is something different with Pitch, there's a fiery charm he's playing with right now. I quite like it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But, you know, your attempt there remarkably fits one of the possible reactions I'd expect from a Forger who has just lost a packmate - try to make the best from the loss by spinning it against those who brought xem down. Rikae might qualify as well with her suggestion that Bom could have been the KD - luckily, that seems to be off the table now (and thanks to Nerwen for making a point of what I'd said before her). Nice try though.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I can't stay for long or go searching for interactions and etc, but from toDay's posts, Pitchie's case against Rikae feels a bit... fabricated. I'll be back later with my thoughts in full...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And since I'm here, I can also say that Pitch is acting abnormal toDay, making an elephant out of a fly with Rikae. This isn't supposed to be related to my previous statement - at least in my head, - but they both stand... I think...

It does appear to me that G55's suspicions of Pitch seem rather forced. Pitch was hardly making a "case" against Rikae; just asking for a clarification.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What this means for Forger tactics is that I think they'd be more likely to try and get the KD (whoever they think he is) lynched instead of going for him at Night, because they can't know whether the Sweetheart has already found him or not. Which, sadly, means that Forge-on-Forge votes will probably become more frequent now.

Sensible, this. However, I still think the Bom voters from yesterDay look pretty good (and yes, I happen to be one of them).

[Pitchwife]

Haha, Boro, thanks - I suppose playing Live WW for the first time in Finland had that effect, to make me a little less cerebral and more spontaneous.

Which reminds me, Mith, the Jon Snow with a wolf is a character in A Song of Ice and Fire who was the subject of much joking at his expense during Finlandmoot. Just started to read the series and like it so far. It's quite a lot, though - four volumes, plus the fifth just out. Not a trilogy.

[Mithalwen]

Just what we need..more in jokes Ah well ... I have a huge to read pile atm and somehow the more people talk about it the less interested I am ...

[Boromir88]

Ok, not going to reveal the KD if he dies...hmm, would this mean the other forgers won't know whether their lynched member was the KD or not too?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ok, not going to reveal the KD if he dies...hmm, would this mean the other forgers won't know whether their lynched member was the KD or not too?

I'd guess not.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd guess not.

Me neither - which is of course good for us, as it'll increase mistrust and paranoia among the Forgers, hampering their ability to work as a pack. (Unless the KD somehow blunders and gives himself away to the others - but in this case he won't have much to lose afterwards.)

Wouldn't it be gorgeous if we could just help the Forgers lynch each other for a change? Too nice to come true, I'm afraid.

Anyway. Got to do some grocery shopping now, but I'll be back in a few hours for the rest of the Day. See ya.

[Finduilas]

Folwren said she would change the narration to not be from his point of view, so I'm thinking that it will be tolerably obvious to careful readers as to whether he dies. Though I kind of like the idea of the Forgers not knowing.

[Nerwen]

So I need to vote soon, just in case my connection goes down again, or I can't otherwise get back online before DL. This will be basically a placeholder, but still for somebody I have some suspicions against– which will probably be G55 (reasons already stated).

The other person I'm considering, though, is McCaber, who has been coming across as quite shifty to me.

Just a moment to think...

EDIT:X'd since last post.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Well, we'll see how this turns out. I do believe we'll find a good chunk of the truth this lynch.

That's for all of you who couldn't find a single KD clue. ^.^ We know now that he's not the KD, but for all we - and the wolves - kne yesterDay, he mighta been. Though this is the only KD hint I found, and it was said when votes were already starting to fall on him...

Originally Posted by Zil

It does appear to me that G55's suspicions of Pitch seem rather forced. Pitch was hardly making a "case" against Rikae; just asking for a clarification.

I get what you're saying. But, IMO, pressing the point and saying that she may as well be Forging at Night, is a case. And it just sounded ridiculous. The sentense he quoted, albeit a statement, sounds more frivolous than a serious declaration. Reminds me of myself in your game, when I tried to lynch someone for a joke-post.

Upon rereading, I come to be more and more suspicious of Pitchie and Phantom. I can see the twain awake at Night together. "Their swords and their councels may have two edges".... or something of that sort.

And it certainly makes it more difficult for villagers and wolves alike if they don't know the KD's identity. But especially villagers.

Edit: xed with Nerwen

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So I need to vote soon, just in case my connection goes down again, or I can't otherwise get back online before DL. This will be basically a placeholder, but still for somebody I have some suspicions against– which will probably be G55 (reasons already stated).

The other person I'm considering, though, is McCaber, who has been coming across as quite shifty to me.

I'm wrestling with a similar dilemma. Today is looking to be quite busy from an RL standpoint. Trouble is, McCaber voted for G55. Who looks worse? Or does someone else outdo both in shiftiness?

McCaber is usually one of the quiet ones who is the very definition of "submarine". His immediate response to tp yesterDay in giving three "random" suspects was a bit odd. He didn't vote Day 1, so no help there.

And toDay he's latched on to G55 early, for "trying to stop a lynch of the Forge-ite Bom Tombadillo, and coming close to succeeding". Is that what she did? Hm.

x/d with G55

[Boromir88]

Nearly fully trust/would truly be surprised if they were Forgers...

Pitch
Mith

Feel trusty enough that I won't vote today...

Nerwen
Phantom

No idea...


Glirdan
Finduilas
Eruhen

Makes me skeptical...

sally
G55
McCaber
Inzil
Rikae

Could have put Rikae as creepy, but she always does, so it's no more creepy than normal. But, I shall be looking at the skeptical list and possibly get to the no ideas.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And toDay he's latched on to G55 early, for "trying to stop a lynch of the Forge-ite Bom Tombadillo, and coming close to succeeding". Is that what she did? Hm.

Well, no. He's voting someone who has done suspicious stuff– but the reason he gives is something that didn't actually happen like that. Again, it just seems shifty.

Okay, then–

++McCaber

This is tentative and I may end up changing it later.

EDIT:converted to vote-post; added comment

[satansaloser2005]

So let me make sure I understand this correctly....

We lynch an ordo. We know we've lynched an ordo.
We lynch a gifted. We know we've lynched a gifted.
We lynch one of the regular Forge members. We know we've lynched a Forge member.
We lynch the KD. We know we've lynched a Forge member.


Is this correct? Because if Foley suddenly decides to stop revealing roles, we would automatically know if it was the KD, so I'm assuming she'll just reveal alignment.



Anyway, off to look at people. I'm in a book shop, yay, so I should be able to catch up properly.


Also....


Spontaneous enough to kill? Pitch?

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

No idea...


Glirdan
Finduilas
Eruhen

Personally, Eruhen has made it to my "trust enough to not vote for today" list. Other than that, and where you have placed Inzil, I seem to agree mostly with your placing of people. Which makes me put you on the "trust enough to not vote for today" list.

xed with Sally and Nerwen

[the phantom]

I was doing a bit of rereading and spotted this-

Originally Posted by Finduilas

...as I lay in bed tonight thinking about evil dwarves

Ha ha ha ha!

[satansaloser2005]

Now that Finduilas has admitted to having nasty dreams about Phantom, I think I'll go analyze him.

Also, oi. Boro, why did you vote me yesterDay? You make me sad.


ETA: Finduilas, that is, not Phantom. There's simply not enough time to tell all the things wrong with His Puddingness.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

So let me make sure I understand this correctly....

We lynch an ordo. We know we've lynched an ordo.
We lynch a gifted. We know we've lynched a gifted.
We lynch one of the regular Forge members. We know we've lynched a Forge member.
We lynch the KD. We know we've lynched a Forge member.


Is this correct? Because if Foley suddenly decides to stop revealing roles, we would automatically know if it was the KD, so I'm assuming she'll just reveal alignment.

That's right as far as I know. Anyone with a Forge mark (ie wolves and KD) will be called a Forge Member if they die. I think we'll know that it's the SH if she's lynched. If she's killed - obviously.

The fact that the KD's role is not revealed upon death makes things much more difficult for the village. It complicates things for the wolves as well, but they have the benefit of knowing something. Also, they can take information from Nightly conversations. For instance, the KD would try to influence the kill, and a wolf could detect that. But ordinary innocents won't know anything.

Edit: xed with Findy, tp, and sally

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, it does depend a lot on the personality of the wolves– how ruthless, how confident at being able to win alone, etc. So I wouldn't say for certain that the Forge members would go all out to kill each other, only that they might.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I would love to do a reread of yesterday with the dwarf-eat-dwarf mentality in mind, but I'm too tired. I'll be around tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That's for all of you who couldn't find a single KD clue. ^.^ We know now that he's not the KD, but for all we - and the wolves - kne yesterDay, he mighta been. Though this is the only KD hint I found, and it was said when votes were already starting to fall on him...

...but at a time where tp was still in the lead. But, come on, isn't that something that might be said about almost any D1 lynch, especially one with two competing bandwagons? Grasping for straws, I say.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Upon rereading, I come to be more and more suspicious of Pitchie and Phantom. I can see the twain awake at Night together. "Their swords and their councels may have two edges".... or something of that sort.

Well, I'm not quite as fond of tp's thinking toDay as I was yesterDay, but I still think we're dealing with an innocent evil genius in this game, not an evil evil one. But rest assured, we don't share any Nightly activities - neither work at the forge nor of a more recreational kind.

(x-ed from #181 down)

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Folwren said she would change the narration to not be from his point of view, so I'm thinking that it will be tolerably obvious to careful readers as to whether he dies. Though I kind of like the idea of the Forgers not knowing.

Not so... she said:

Originally Posted by moddess

Okay, yeah, I've decided to not reveal when the KD is killed. Which means my narrations will change a little bit, withdrawing from his point of view hence forward."

So Bom was not the KD, but none of the narrations will be from the KD's perspective from now on, and we (and the forge members) won't know if he dies.
Not caught up, still reading...
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[Pitchwife]

Crap, somehow all my comments on the quotes from Nerwen and tp got lost in posting. I'll try to retrieve them.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Sally

We lynch an ordo. We know we've lynched an ordo.
We lynch a gifted. We know we've lynched a gifted.
We lynch one of the regular Forge members. We know we've lynched a Forge member.
We lynch the KD. We know we've lynched a Forge member.

This is correct. Unless the Sweetheart dies before she finds the KD, then she's just an Ordo still, pretty much.

There are four members of the Forge plus the KD.

And Finduilas is a 'she'.

-- Folwren

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mith

(To McCaber) So in ch that case why did you jump straight in to complying with it?

Originally Posted by McCaber

Because if it WAS allowed to fly, it'd be a great way to get information out. I agreed with it, even though I didn't know if our Moddess Goddess would let it.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Um... you know, McCaber, no offence, but I'm not sure that's even an answer. Mith asked you why you jumped straight in without knowing if the plan would be allowed, and you said, "Yes, I did."

No, no, I understand his answer. He was about to leave for the day if I remember correctly, so he wanted to shoot his three suspects out there just in case we did adopt the plan. In other words, he thought it was a plan that could be beneficial and in case we decided to adopt it he wanted to be certain he had done the necessary work to be on board (named suspects). And if we didn't adopt it- oh well, it's not as if his naming of three people hurt anything.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Well, I'm not quite as fond of tp's thinking toDay as I was yesterDay, but I still think we're dealing with an innocent evil genius in this game, not an evil evil one. But rest assured, we don't share any Nightly activities - neither work at the forge nor of a more recreational kind.

No, I don't think you're a long-legged elven blonde, I'm not that nuts yet...

But I will not rest, and most definitely will not be assured, until I see my suspicions proven.

++Pitchie

Seriously, he said and did too many things with double-meanings that just smell like Forgery. I will probably have the chance to duck in again before the DL, but just in case I'm voting now. I doubt that anything will come up that will make me change my mind.

Edit: xed with Foley and TP

[Pitchwife]

So this is what I meant to post up there, plus an update:

Originally Posted by tp

I would love to do a reread of yesterday with the dwarf-eat-dwarf mentality in mind, but I'm too tired. I'll be around tomorrow.

If it makes you happy - but remember, as of yesterDay the Rules still were that the KD would be revealed at death, so I think Forge-on-Forge in yesterDay's voting would be unlikely, except if the lynchee didn't leave any trails to their packmates; but then, why get rid of them in the first place?
(Yesyes, I get what you're saying, and it would be gorgeous if we could just help the Forgers lynch each other, but it's just too good to be true.)

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, it does depend a lot on the personality of the wolves– how ruthless, how confident at being able to win alone, etc. So I wouldn't say for certain that the Forge members would go all out to kill each other, only that they might.

Yes. And I hope you'll take it as a compliment when I say that I can totally see you as the kind of player going for a lone victory and able to pull it off.
Which sort of fits you turn on G55, on whom you didn't say a word all yesterDay, other than sympathizing with her about first Days with tp (a bit like a loving wolf-mother comforting a shell-shocked cub?).

And, you know, although I didn't get around to commenting on it at the time, I wasn't at all comfortable with you yesterDay - first fishing for a Moddess-ruling against tp's plan, then, when that wasn't to be got, scattering some passing doubt on (IIRC) Bom, Boro, Eruhen and Findy without really going and committing anywhere, then disappearing. OK, if you couldn't come back for RL reasons, fine, but it all just fits the profile of a careful Forger who has come up against an unexpected problem and needs to reshuffle her cards.
_________________________

Oh, and now some people have started suspecting McCaber, there's a nice alternative to G55, so you won't have to vote her after all. Isn't that shiny?
Too bad I can't vote for the two of you together...

[the phantom]

Well, after rereading what I said back in this post still stands generally- not liking Gal55's attitude yesterday and not wishing to lynch certain people.

Anyway, I have decided to swear fealty to Pitch, Boro, McCaber, and Mith. If by my life or death I can... No, scratch the death part, but if I can possibly save you and stay alive at the same time, I will.

I like that Mith spotted Inzil's word choice, as I noticed it too. Sorry lad.

And I also like that Bom and Gal55 both used Werewolf terminology. Makes me feel better about choosing her. Especially seeing that Nerwen also used Werewolf terms and defended Gal55 today.

edit: x-post Pitch

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Folwren

This is correct. Unless the Sweetheart dies before she finds the KD, then she's just an Ordo still, pretty much.

There are four members of the Forge plus the KD.

And Finduilas is a 'she'.

-- Folwren

Ohhhh. Silly me. I thought there were only four total. It really has been a long week.

Also, whoops. Sorry, Finduilas.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Pitch

(To Nerwen) And, you know, although I didn't get around to commenting on it at the time, I wasn't at all comfortable with you yesterDay - first fishing for a Moddess-ruling against tp's plan, then, when that wasn't to be got, scattering some passing doubt on (IIRC) Bom, Boro, Eruhen and Findy without really going and committing anywhere, then disappearing.

I didn't really pay attention to those latter points (I'm willing to give some benefit of doubt on disappearances), but I certainly noticed the insistence on a Mod ruling.

It had the smell of someone thinking, "Crap, this could be the end of the line for me. But obviously I can't look outraged and scared. I'll just nicely stave it off with some light resistance and try and get the Moddess to put a stop to it."

[Mithalwen]

Right so ....13 players 3 straightforward baddies, KD sweetheart, No other gifted... We can't get complacent despite the Day one success.... can't fall into any silly "it is always worth lynching x because they mess with my head nonsense". We have very little margin for error here. And I need to find my notebook.. it was right here before I went out...argh.... I'll be back soon I hope...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Personally, Eruhen has made it to my "trust enough to not vote for today" list. Other than that, and where you have placed Inzil, I seem to agree mostly with your placing of people. Which makes me put you on the "trust enough to not vote for today" list.

Then I'll start with Inzil because, he's giving me sketchy vibes (or if you prefer just suspicious dwarvish majiks).

His joking vote for Galadriel started it. It was obviously a joke and not an actual vote since it wasn't highlighted. Kidding/joke suspicions is all in good fun, but it just looks weird to fake a vote as late as it was in the day.

Then followed by the back-and-forth with Bom in posts #93, 95 and 96. Concluding with Inzil casting 1st vote for tp (later retracted) but G55 and Bom quickly tacked on their votes.

Day 1 you can say I had a funky feeling, but didn't say anything because I wanted to observe him a bit more.

Then today

Originally Posted by Inzil

Let's see. I'm feeling pretty good about Eruhen, since she tied Bom with tp. Boro's vote might seem the least shiny of the Bom-voters, just because it came so late. Baddies have little to lose by putting another nail in a doomed mate's coffin, and everything to gain.

Call me biased, because it's about me, but I just don't like the look of that suspicion, without it really trying to look like a suspicion. I know Inzil's argument about wolf-on-wolf votes is a normal assumption to make, and I believe Inzil said at the beginning of the day he want to find something in the Bom votes.

Granted I didn't indicate I cross-posted, but I rarely ever take the time to edit in a "x-post" unless it's a massively long one. All one has to do is look at the time stamps and see my vote crossed with Inzil's and wilwa's therefor mine coming last in that group of 3 is inconsequential. Inzil pointing out my vote of all of them, being the "last one" and thus "least shiny" looks like a cheap boot-strapping suspicion attempt. (ergo, makes me suspicious of him).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Right so ....13 players 3 straightforward baddies, KD sweetheart, No other gifted...

12 players, Mith. Glirdy dropped out, if I'm not mistaken (see wilwa on Admin thread).

[Boromir88]

And on sally...sorry my vote made you sad, but it's the quickest and easiest way I can take to try to figure you out.

That is put you under some pressure to get you talking instead of going through from day to day being an enigma.