WW: LXXXV - The Lost Philosophers of Maiar

[Loslote]

Wow. I did not see that coming.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I really really don't like that you just drew attention to this (the reason I voted Sally). I was seriously hoping the length of Sally's post would stop people from noticing this, but now that you mentioned it again (and underlined it!), I'm sure the wolves and Cobbler will have seen it. If they hadn't come up with the idea themselves (which despite what Sally seemed to think, they may not have thought of it), now they have. It was not in the village's best interest to draw attention to this idea.

They saw it regardless of whether I mentioned it again or not. If sally is innocent, she shouldn't have said it in the first place.

[Nogrod]

DL.

Sally will be dead in a moment...

[Nogrod]

"So, Sally got the most votes. What should we do now?" Aganzir asked.

"Pass me the hemlock" Sally said wryly.

"Are you an innocent or not?" asked the Blind Guardian confused.

"Of course I am, now get on with the poison. No muffins this time." Sally said defiantly.

"But hey, if you’re innocent, couldn’t we make a new vote? Let’s not kill an innocent!" Pitchwife gasped.

"Listen. We have decided that we should pick the one to die by a democratic vote. I accepted the terms as did you all others – so how could I try to shy away from a principle I had earlier accepted? I wouldn’t be calling for a re-vote if someone else had been chosen, so I can’t allow it in case I am picked myself. Is it that so hard to figure?" Sally answered grinning almost amusedly.

"But the consequences will be disasterous if we go on killing innocents!" yelled Nessa, "Look at the numbers!"

Sally took a deep breath. "Well how do you go picking another target? If I avoid the sentence, then I effectively turn it on someone else who might be just as innocent as I am. So wouldn’t I have wronged then? It is better to suffer wrong than to do wrong; it is not so important to live, but to live righteously. And to live righteously is to live under the principles of truth, goodness and beauty, right? And turning away from those principles, or doing outright wrong for personal gain, can not be righteous in any case, now can it?"

There was silence…


~*~

… which was broken by Melkor’s booming voice.


“So the stubborn one is the chosen one then? It is a pleasure to start with those strong in faith…”

“You don’t scare me Melkor. You’re just an imperfect and twisted copy of the Real – like all your “creation” are imperfect and twisted copies of the Real Creation! I’m more than happy to leave this cave of illusion behind me.” Sally called back standing straight.

“Tell me Satansaloser, are you just having hard times hearing things or do you have problems with the comprehension? You’re not going anywhere – nor are you staying. You are going to vanish, you are going to not-be.” Melkor grinned wide.

“You can do whatever you wish to my material form, but my soul is created by Iluvatar himself and is not for you to decide on. My soul will leave this cave and return to the cosmos – and what would be more delightful than being able to leave this dungeon and join the eternal joy and harmony of Being so lacking in this mockery of mere existence you have managed to put up here?”

“And feisty you are? As you wish, loser.”

Sally’s clothes took an instant fire and just lighted off and what was left from under them was nothing – but small heaps of dust and ashes on the floor of the dungeon where she had just stood.

“Whatever your creation, that is what you are now!” Melkor bellowed.

Slowly the two heaps started glowing and withering little by little. The horrified Maiar looked on as the heaps grew smaller and smaller finally vanishing with a puff. There was a thin line of bluish smoke that lingered for a short moment above where the heaps had been, but it did not go anywhere, but rather just dissolved into the air. There was a horrendous cry in the air and then it was all black and quiet.

Sally was the first innocent loser of the experiment.

The living:

Eomer of the Rohirrim - An associate of Ossë, speciality: lochs and ponds, great alliance with frogs
elronds_daughter - A spirit of no-nonsense
Macalaure - Carmótar, the Maia of housework
Shastanis Althreduin - A spirit of water
Loslote - A spirit of sunshine and rainbows
Kitanna - A spirit of all things unimaginative
wilwarin538 - Belongs to Vána, cares for all the small garden dwelling, winged creatures
Nessa Telrunya - The patron of town criers across the world
Pitchwife - Tender of Oromë's dogs
Inziladun - A vassal of Námo, serving as a warden in Mandos
Rikae - A spirit in charge of silicon & static electricity
Boromir88 - A Maia of Mandos, the interpretter of dreams
A Little Green - A spirit in charge of aliens, hummingbirds and farming
Blind Guardian -A spirit of evil ways
Skip Spence - A follower of Aule with an avid interest in behavioural sciences
Mänwe - A spirit of short acquintances
Valier - A handmaiden of Yavanna, collecting the morning dew from the petals of flowers
Legate of Amon Lanc - A Maia associated with the unfathomed depths of the world's seas but also with the waters surrounding Arda in the outer space...
Thinlómien - A maia who lives in Lórien and paints the dreams of those sleeping there
Aganzir - Aka. Firebeck, a spirit of fire
Ozban - Yavanna's underling with inferiority complex. Caretaker of undergrowth and small bushes in general, especially blackberries
Caílin - A spirit of secrecy
Kath - A spirit of nostalgy

The dead:

Satansaloser2005 - (Innocent) A spirit of ducks, muffins and cookies; reduced to ashes and dust on D1

Night 2 has fallen.


Gifteds and baddies, your turn. The rest is silence.


Day2 starts normally in 24 hours (23 hours and 42 minutes to be more exact)

[Nogrod]

Eä Herald - Narvinyë 15, 7th age

We hope our readers have been enjoying our coverage of those astonishing events from the times immemorial thus far. All that you have seen or heard have been found in the latest archeological excavations into Utumno’s yet unexplored depths. Professor Nogrod, who has been leading the team of experts in the excavations, will now enlighten us about the records and their background.

Well, as horrendous the events were, luckily to the posterity Melkor appointed a few of his servants to record all of the experiment and – I guess because of his vanity – also the music he made with Sauron and other twisted spirits. But it is clear that what he really needed to record were the discussions the doomed Maiar went through during the following years as he was often busy elsewhere. That way he could listen to them afterwards to make his own deductions concerning how to rule and exploit the forthcoming hordes of mortal beings. In modern terms one could name his work as a kind of existentialist socio-psychological experiment of the functionalistic school of sociology.

So what you have been reading of late are transcriptions of the original tapes form the first decades of the experiment. We would have wished to publish the actual recordings but sadly because of the pending copyright issues - mainly regarding the estates of the deceased - the Eä Herald was understandably not willing to take the risk.

If the years confuse you, it should be told that Melkor had decided twenty years would be a long enough an interval for both talking and sleeping. Less than that might keep the Maiar too defiant and more than that could run the risk of ending up prematurely without giving any readable results.

Let us now join the experiment and fly to year 4560 Valian time to hear how the second “Day” of the experiment started.


~*~

The trapped Maiar woke up from their spellbound sleep when Melkor released them entering the dungeon. He didn’t seem to be in a good mood. Some even heard him hissing to himself something about a “sickening sickle” and “hating Varda”. But coming amidst the Maiar he collected himself and almost smiled.

“I have been listening to your discussions – and I do remember what Sally said before she ceased to be. And I do think I have to correct you on a few points.

You’re right with pointing out the difference concerning mere existence and the Actual Being which is eternal. Plato had it correct when he said there are two non-overlapping magistrates: the faulty and fleeting realm of physicality and the realm of eternal forms. But you’re wrong in following his implicit assumption that all real knowledge, the logos, needs to have an eternal form as it’s object to be called Truth, or in your further suggestion that the being of an eternal Truth could question the existence of contingent things. For there is an eternal Truth on fleeting physical and mortal existence. That is, that the physical and mortal existence is doomed to wane and finally die and cease to exist. That holds to all physical existence whenever and wherever it appears, always, eternally, ad infinitum.

Also I find it interesting you manage to make such categorical mistakes as taking the kelvar and olvar – or sentinent creatures if you prefer that expression – as a disproof of what I told you. Yes, the kelvar and olvar are created as sentinent entities; some of them, like the Oromë’s hounds or Aulë’s dwarves have a lot of self-awareness, and some, like Yavanna’s trees in the forest or the algae of the seas have less of it. They were created to born, live and wither away to give room for new life, like you say. But you forget, that their senses and self-awareness are physical in nature, they are not eternal Beings and you should know that. And exactly because they are only physical creatures, they are to suffer all the physical processes like mortal wounds, diseases, ageing and finally dying. Nothing that is physical is eternal. That is an eternal Truth for you.

So you seem to forget now the essential qualitative difference between Yavanna’s trees and Oromë’s hounds in relation to eternal Beings like you yourselves used to be… for didn’t you have a soul none of those mortal things have? That was the eternal you. If something bad was to happen to the physical form you had taken when coming into this world, your soul would have just travelled outside the created time and space to the Outside to rekindle the light of life in you, leaving the broken physicality behind you. But not anymore! What my music did was to tie your souls into your physical existence so that it cannot anymore leave the body, but will share its fate! And there is no conceptual contradiction involved, even if some of you might be willing to try that conclusion. Eternal beings are still eternal and finite beings are still finite. Everything is eternally like it has to be. The only thing that is different now is that you don’t belong to the former category anymore…

To spell it out with a parable: cubes are one kind of things and balls are another kind of things – and there are eternal Truths concerning both cubes and balls as to what they are, now and to eternity. But a particular cube can be turned into a particular ball by a skilled artisan. Cubes are still cubes and balls are still balls, but the particular cube of our example is no more a cube but a ball.”

Melkor paused for a moment… like he was trying to remember something he still had in mind.

“Oh, yes” he grinned now widely.

“It’s actually quite interesting to see how the condition of mortality dims some wits already, this soon, as I think I heard someone saying that “the true damnation lies in immortality”! So you are already calling Eru Ilúvatar the foundation of the true damnation? How easy will it be to lead the lesser mortals to my side if you crack in mere twenty years that badly? This experiment seems to produce much greater results I could have ever dreamt of beforehand…

Anyway. I see you have lost two of your companions. You have twenty years to find the culprits and to reflect on your sorry state. So have a nice Day!”

With that Melkor vanished.


It was only now the Maiar started looking around them. They soon realized that Kath and Ozban were not among them anymore.

“There!” Macalaure cried in anguish.

They rushed to the odd pile they saw on the floor to the side of the main hall of the dungeon. It looked like a heap of torn pieces of bodies – but they were oddly dry and shrinked in size, like they had turned instantly into thousands of years old mummies that had been broken.

“What new devilry is this?” Greenie wailed.

“They have ripped Kath and Ozban into pieces… How rude!” Manwë mumbled.

Elronds daughter reached to the pile with his finger. As soon as he touched it, the pile collapsed and vanished at the same time, leaving dust and ashes to slowly settle down to the floor.

“Now that is gross…” wilwa whispered.

“Let’s sing for their memory. We need something beautiful into this deep and dark place” Eomer suggested and started to sing with Cailín. The others joined the lamentation and their voices filled the dark hall with sadness and beauty the caves had never witnessed.


The living:

Eomer of the Rohirrim - An associate of Ossë, speciality: lochs and ponds, great alliance with frogs
elronds_daughter - A spirit of no-nonsense
Macalaure - Carmótar, the Maia of housework
Shastanis Althreduin - A spirit of water
Loslote - A spirit of sunshine and rainbows
Kitanna - A spirit of all things unimaginative
wilwarin538 - Belongs to Vána, cares for all the small garden dwelling, winged creatures
Nessa Telrunya - The patron of town criers across the world
Pitchwife - Tender of Oromë's dogs
Inziladun - A vassal of Námo, serving as a warden in Mandos
Rikae - A spirit in charge of silicon & static electricity
Boromir88 - A Maia of Mandos, the interpretter of dreams
A Little Green - A spirit in charge of aliens, hummingbirds and farming
Blind Guardian -A spirit of evil ways
Skip Spence - A follower of Aule with an avid interest in behavioural sciences
Mänwe - A spirit of short acquintances
Valier - A handmaiden of Yavanna, collecting the morning dew from the petals of flowers
Legate of Amon Lanc - A Maia associated with the unfathomed depths of the world's seas but also with the waters surrounding Arda in the outer space...
Thinlómien - A maia who lives in Lórien and paints the dreams of those sleeping there
Aganzir - Aka. Firebeck, a spirit of fire
Caílin - A spirit of secrecy


The dead:

Satansaloser2005 - (Innocent) A spirit of ducks, muffins and cookies; reduced to ashes and dust on D1.
Ozban – (Innocent) Yavanna's underling with inferiority complex. Caretaker of undergrowth and small bushes in general, especially blackberries; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2.
Kath – (Innocent) A spirit of nostalgy; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2.

Day 2 has begun. Load your arguments and sharpen your assertions.

[Inziladun]

Interesting kill choices, I think. Kath, who voted for me, and Ozban, who followed my vote for Nessa. Why them?

[Valier]

could definately be the wolves trying to frame you Inzil....or a clever wolfish ruse by you, and ur fellows to draw attention away from you, since you had a few votes against you yesterday.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, now that was evil. Whoever had killed Ozban is going to respond to me.

Aside from that, let's see why those two have been killed. Zil had already suggested something about their votes, but since I haven't been around when the votes were cast, I need to go around through them to see myself. I am thinking, however, that those things like that somebody voted for somebody are in fact rather rarely reasons for killing somebody. Not by themselves. Yes, somebody might have been trying to frame Inzil by killing somebody who voted him, but the pack would have needed at least one more reason, I believe. Or at least I would have expected so. That said, the reason can very well be "because they were a quiet kill". In this game, though - especially with such amount of kills - I would expect the WWs to go straight for whomever they thought might be the Seer.

That's not to say that Zil's post didn't make me paranoid about him instantly, quite the opposite. Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird. Of course, it can be just stating the obvious of an Ordo who is just stating facts, and in fact, that's what innocents often do, as they have no calculativeness behind their statements. They often end up lynched for that as well. Nonetheless, paranoid it makes me, but I am not going to put any weight to it, just because of what I have said just now.

I recall there was some question some of you have asked me yesterDay when I wasn't present, I am going to seek it out and quote it and reply at the same time when I will try to check what else was there about Ozban and Kath. Will be back in a short while.

EDIT: x-ed with Valier

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird.

Come, now. Can't I be both?

There's other stuff that happened after I voted that invites scrutiny, mainly the Sally-wagon. What were you lot thinking?

[Rikae]

That Sally-wagon does need a look. It's the sort of thing that has me saying "innocents couldn't possibly blunder so badly" but then again, if all my years of WW have taught me anything, it's that innocents always can.

Still would like to look closer, though.

Kath's death was a surprise to me, as I was starting to suspect her.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What were you lot thinking?

I think we had quite a good reason, she brought forward a suggestion that no innocent should ever bring up. The idea that the Cobbler could send in their own name and the wolves would then know who he is. When I first saw it I hoped that the large size of her post would maybe stop the Cobbler/Wolves from reading it too closely and getting the idea. But then Agan went and brought a lot of attention to it, guaranteeing that the baddies saw it (so the wolves may have assumed the name they received belongs to their Cobbler). We just need to hope the Cobbler didn't do it, and the Wolves have the wrong name.

Anyway, I can't come on much more tonight, and school starts for me tomorrow (and I have work immediately after school). I'll try to come back on again in a couple hours with more thoughts, and hopefully can pop on to vote tomorrow at school.

x'ed with Rikae

[Rikae]

Did she? I didn't even see that, but if she did, it's not as if it was her idea. Mac-cobbler did that in a game I think she was in as well as several others here. Hmm.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's not to say that Zil's post didn't make me paranoid about him instantly, quite the opposite. Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird.

Actually, I got a good feeling about him from it. As a wolf, I would expect Zil not to draw quite that much attention to that. As an innocent, it's something I could see him doing - I get more of a "that's interesting" (I'm envisioning that the way Jack Sparrow said it ) type of feel than a "this must make me innocent" type of feel.

EDIT: xed with Rikae

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I cannot really find anything Seer-ish looking about Kath, not at all - which is rather puzzling. I would really expect the WWs to go for the Seer and not just sit randomly around, when they have twice as big a chance to hit the Seer than usual. Same with Ozzy, unless somebody thought his verses refer to any dream-y nature of his or whatnot.

There is another connection, though, which Zil did not mention - Kath said specifically in one of her last posts that she certainly DOES NOT want to vote for Nessa (because she hasn't played with her before, simple as that - Nessa was in threat to be lynched at that point). But in any case that places her in the opposite basket to Ozzy. So in fact, I would put it this way: if the votes point to anybody, it is actually also Nessa, and maybe more than Inzil. The question is, though, how do they point at her, as in, what it means. I haven't found a good answer for that yet.

Of course, there is the possibility that either of the kills was suggested to the Wolves by the Cobbler. However, it would be a rather weird pick, in my opinion.

Personally, right now I would say that the point was the simplest one - a sort of no-trace kill, resp. a kill with a trace to somebody to frame: that's what I would expect. The question is (and that's to return to my unanswered question I raised above) if it was so, then who was to be framed and by whom, Nessa by Inzil, Inzil by Nessa, both by somebody, or nobody at all.

I don't have time or concentration enough for this now, however, so it will have to wait until after I sleep - several hours. Meanwhile, I think there might be quite a few posts.

And so, I add just the response to the questions from yesterDay:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm not sure what you're saying here, Legate - that Lottie says Agan calling the cobbler 'she' is a cobbler-hint, or that Lottie is cobbler-hinting herself in this quote? If the latter, I'd say that's quite a stretch.
(As for the matter itself, I've noticed that Agan habitually calls all roles 'she' - obviously she doesn't hold with gender-neutral pronouns; so this is certainly not a cobbler-hint on her part.)

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I agree, I don't know what Legate is getting at. Agan always refers to unknown people as a 'she', it's her way of protesting against our male-dominated society (at least, that's what I like to think she's doing). So no wolf looking at that would ever think it a Cobbler hint, it's just something she always does no matter what. And I don't see how what Lottie says could be a Cobbler hint. I'd like some clarification here on what he meant.

What I meant was that Lottie, of all the roles, mentioned the Cobbler in her post. It came out of the blue. It would have been sufficient to say "Agan always calls unknown roles she". If she calls all of them 'she' (which is, to my knowledge, also true, I am not disputing that at all), then why to say "one that comes to my mind is the cobbler"? Specifically mentioning a cobbler in such a random place might have been a Cobbler-hint, or Lottie-cobbler checking if Agan is a Wolf, or Lottie-Wolf checking if Agan is a cobbler... etc. Anyway, it was more like a remark, and the core of my suspicion was the latter part of my post. I would not have voted Lottie just because I'd think she's a Cobbler (which would've been in the first part a more likely outcome), I voted her because I thought she might be a Wolf.

Anyway, speaking of that, after her later posts yesterDay, I am not actually suspicious of Lottie much anymore now (though of course that's to see what she posts toDay).

So, later...

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Initial thoughts: Ozban is an interesting kill as players tend to leave those who haven't played for a while alive - unless there's a good reason. Definite Seer hint in there, eh? Eh?

I'd read less into Kath's death, because the urge to kill Kath is completely understandable at all times. (I will have a look at Kath, of course)

Ok, not sure why certain people today find the lynching of Sally an obvious blunder - we had no idea who to string up! I didn't vote for her, but I'm not going to just assume that evil folk were involved in her slaying. Can people explain what was so wrong about choosing Sally (without referring to hindsight, naturally).

Also, this Wilwa-Agan argument right at the end of the day confuses me. Need to re-read, and probably have people explain it to me again. Slowly.

[Loslote]

As for the Sally wagon, there was a lot of xing going on. For instance, at the time I voted, I thought only one other person had voted for her, and that a while ago. I also noticed a lot of people marking their cross posts, so it's possible that very few of us actually knew what we were doing. I don't think there was an intentional "let's all gand up and kill Sally" bandwagon, more of an "I'll vote Sally, and maybe other people will too, maybe not" bandwagon. If that makes any sense.

EDIT: xed with Skip

EDITEDIT: Legate's right; I crossed with Eomer, not Skip

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I think we had quite a good reason, she brought forward a suggestion that no innocent should ever bring up. The idea that the Cobbler could send in their own name and the wolves would then know who he is. When I first saw it I hoped that the large size of her post would maybe stop the Cobbler/Wolves from reading it too closely and getting the idea. But then Agan went and brought a lot of attention to it, guaranteeing that the baddies saw it (so the wolves may have assumed the name they received belongs to their Cobbler). We just need to hope the Cobbler didn't do it, and the Wolves have the wrong name.

Actually, and as Rikae had already said, this thing had been used by Cobblers in several games, I believe, or I think I remember being in more than one. It was in fact one thing that was on my mind since the start of Day 1 and I was just waiting who is going to say that. I was quite surprised when by the time I have been around people actually haven't started tossing the idea around, I might have hoped that nobody is going to mention it.

But that said, I can see the reason of voting sally because of that. However (and once again when I am fresh, I have to take a look at the bandwaggon for her, to see how big it actually was and who was there), I am inclined to believe that some WWs might have very likely mingled with the crowd there.

And totally random addition, Rikae creeps me out.

EDIT: x-ed since my last once again, and I would like to see what "skip" you crossed with, Lottie

[Cailín]

Very interesting. Just read the entire thread. I thought Sally looked fairly innocent. Then again, she said she liked me and I am easily swayed by such things.

Looking at that particular bandwagon, Loslote looks shady: she planted suspicion against Sally from her very first post (based on a knee jerk reaction even though Sally really only said she could not contribute much) making it an easy vote with no substance at all.

I am not going to pretend that with so little evidence and with so many people I can already identify the wolves, so I am still very much in touchy-feely-guessy mode.

Right now, I have a good feeling about Legate, Lommy, Rikae and strangely enough about Inzil, though he seems somewhat paranoid. Reason tells me Boromir88, Eomer and Kitanna are innocent. Pure insanity tells me Aganzir probably is worth keeping alive as well.

The wolves are almost certainly A Little Green, Macalaure, Loslote and Nessa (confidence is key).

I hope this information will suffice for those interested in forming an opinion on my part in this plot or building a case against me. I will return later or tomorrow with something more substantial.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Initial thoughts: Ozban is an interesting kill as players tend to leave those who haven't played for a while alive - unless there's a good reason. Definite Seer hint in there, eh? Eh?

If you find that hint in Ozzy's post, I am going to give you a medal. (And then probably lynch you, since I can't see an innocent seeing a Seer see-saw see... something there.)

Originally Posted by Loslote

As for the Sally wagon, there was a lot of xing going on. For instance, at the time I voted, I thought only one other person had voted for her, and that a while ago. I also noticed a lot of people marking their cross posts, so it's possible that very few of us actually knew what we were doing. I don't think there was an intentional "let's all gand up and kill Sally" bandwagon, more of an "I'll vote Sally, and maybe other people will too, maybe not" bandwagon. If that makes any sense.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me (just hope that it is not so that all WWs voted for sally and x-posted at the same point, which would be terribly funny, but it's known to have happened at least twice in my last game) and also makes Lottie sound innocent.

But okay, now I am going to post this and if I haven't x-posted with anybody (or if I did but they said nothing of immediate interest to me), I will REALLY go to sleep!

EDIT: going No offence to the concerned one, it was a good enough post, but not needing an immediate comment

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ok, I've read through all posts of Kath and Ozban.

Kath's posts could hardly look less like those of a Seer. She mentions everyone in vague terms, and in her last post she suspects three people for (admittedly soft)in-game reasons. She votes Inzi, but... no - I don't buy it. Strange kill. Maybe they simply feared her wolf-hunting powers.

Ozban did speak some verses; wolves don't like that kind of thing - it gives them the creeps. Makes them think a gifted's at work. He also votes for Nessa, not for any very obvious reason.

I had already been getting a wolvish feeling from Nessa yesterday (hence my vote).

[Blind Guardian]

HEY LOOK! I'M STILL ALIVE! IT'S A MIRACLE!

Anyways, I wasn't really here yesterday, so I have no clue what happened. But, bandwagoning Sally...I'll be back.

[Rikae]

My thoughts after looking over the last couple decades:

Kath's post number 38 says "ANWOLFWITS" in the margin.

Sally's mention of the previous game indeed explicitly referred to it, I see, and she went on about it, and the
possible disadvantages of mentioning it, at some length. Nonetheless, no one suspects her or mentions it for
quite a while, including Wilwa, who responds to Sally's post an hour later with banter, not suspicion. Lommy mentions
her soon after as "fishy" but doesn't give a reason. Twenty minutes later Wilwa has problems with Sally's post (number
116), but these are a lack of explanation on her Kitanna-comment and "mis-representing" Skip's point about the seer.
In number 123, Wilwa puts Sally at the top of her list for:

the incorrect representation of what Skip said about the Seer, and the fact that she seems to be a bit all over
the place with dislikes and likes, either by going from liking someone to not, or some are just a "yay, this
person is shiny" or "no, I don't like this", without really giving any reasons. I know all that is a bit
superficial, and on it's own I wouldn't likely suspect her, but that isn't all I have against her....so yeah,
I'm really suspecting her right now.

And in 129 she votes her with no further explanation.

For previously (mostly) stated reasons.

"

So, Wilwa not mentioning the fact that Sally mentioned the possible cobbler-hinting, lest the cobbler notice.
Looks very shiny toDay, but I wonder why she wouldn't do her best to get Sally lynched if she thought it was such a good case against her, in favor of trying to hide something already in the open. Hers was the first vote for Sally, after all.

While I'm rereading, I'd like to know what Nessa means when she
says of me:

She got quite jumpy after being called out, and
hastily backtracked, which seems really strange to me, not to mention how much discussion and sidetracking
has resulted from her first post about Pitch. Perfect opportunity for a wolf.

I don't believe I've played with you before, Nessa, but trust me, I was nothing of the sort ("jumpy" when "called out"), and if I wanted to
come up with a case against Pitch, I easily could. That suspicion was based on nothing more than an uneasy feeling, as I said, and mentioned solely to gauge reactions. One of the reactions I was looking for was one like yours.

Ok, so anyway, in 151 Skip votes for Sally based on an "icky feeling" about her "misrepresenting his words", which
could be taken directly from Wilwa. Seems a little contrived.

Lottie votes for Sally on a hunch, which is the best reason so far! It's also, of course, a piece of cake to hide behind.

Lommy votes for Sally since it "might work out", then has second thoughts two minutes later. Seems an innocentish
waffle to me, but I'm unsure of the reasons behind her vote at this point.

Wilwa chastises Agan for mentioning the cobbler hint thing, gives it as the reason she voted for Sally.
All of this doesn't ease my mind about Wilwa: were she a wolf, she could still have done what she did. Sally was
in no real danger when she voted for her, making her a safe choice even as a suspected cobbler for a wolf.

[Pitchwife]

Ozzy not only voted for Nessa, he actually started the suspicion against her by pointing at her remark about "Rikae knowing things", and she was pretty much the single constant person he suspected all Day. If Nessa's a wolf, I think they could have thought he was the Seer. He also said once or twice he wouldn't vote/suspect Legate, which they could have interpreted as Ozzy had dreamt him innocent.

And sorry, Nessa, I don't quite buy this:

Originally Posted by Nessa

Oh wow, my Rikae post has been completely misinterpreted. The seer reveal has already been discussed as unhelpful to the village, has it not? My hint was that if she knows something we don't, it's suspicious. After all, the wolves all know something we don't: who to kill.

Can't really explain why, but it just sounds like retcon damage control to me.

The problem with this is, for a Nessa Wolfrunya to think Rikae could be the Seer based on Rikae's remark about me, I'd have to be her packmate, which I'm not (although it would explain why she defended me against it), so this theory collapses in itself. She could, however, still be the cobbler erroneously thinking Rikae had spotted a Pitchwolf - in which case I'd say she's not the prime priority toDay, as we still need to get a wolf to reduce the Night-kills.

(x-ed with Rikae herself)

[Rikae]

You know (I mixed her up with Lottie - oops) I never said Nessa was suspicious. I didn't think she was. I was admonishing her for what looked like a newbie error - apparently it wasn't, and she found me suspicious for "knowing something", which makes... no sense at all.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

The problem with this is, for a Nessa Wolfrunya to think Rikae could be the Seer based on Rikae's remark about me, I'd have to be her packmate, which I'm not (although it would explain why she defended me against it), so this theory collapses in itself.

Assuming you're not.

It's also possible she was a wolf looking for an easy lynch, and thought that I, with my mysterious and creepy ways, would be an easy target.

[Cailín]

Honestly though, why would a wolf be actively looking for an easy lynch? Far more sensible to just go with the flow and come up with a mildly credible explanation afterwards. Or baiting - and then passing it off as the smart ploy of an ordinary villager. Rikae?

I do agree Nessa looks fairly bad after Ozban's untimely end.

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Honestly though, why would a wolf be actively looking for an easy lynch? Far more sensible to just go with the flow and come up with a mildly credible explanation afterwards. Or baiting - and then passing it off as the smart ploy of an ordinary villager. Rikae?

I do agree Nessa looks fairly bad after Ozban's untimely end.

Because last Night it was 20 against 4. 4/20=2/10=1/5 (don't lynch me for doing math!) For them not good odds and on Day 1 they might have thought that they could give a lousy excuse and get away with it. Well, that would be my reasoning.

[Pitchwife]

Just went through Kath's posts, nothing Seerish there in my eye. Her longest post #130 was basically a lot of summarizing with only the odd bit of comment here and there. Her vote for Zil seems to have been based mostly on

Originally Posted by Kath #133

faintly shoddy reasoning against Pitch compared to everyone else and he came to it late.

which Zil actually addressed himself here:

Originally Posted by Zil #48

I'll probably be accused of latching onto the suspicion on Pitch, but he somewhat bothers me too. This feels a bit forced.

And this feels a bit self-conscious, if you don't mind my saying so. As does your first post toDay. I just don't see what the wolves hoped to gain with these particular two kills if Zil's one of them: cast suspicion on him by killing Kath while at the same time corroborating his suspicion of Nessa by killing Ozzy??? Nah, doesn't make sense as far as I can see. So I'd think Kath was most probably a classic no trace kill.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

Because last Night it was 20 against 4. 4/20=2/10=1/5 (don't lynch me for doing math!) For them not good odds and on Day 1 they might have thought that they could give a lousy excuse and get away with it. Well, that would be my reasoning.

No, Cailín has a point. You're right that people can get lynched with lousy excuses on Day One, but most of the times innocents are perfectly capable of doing it themselves so the wolves needn't expose themselves by starting it. (Which is the reason why the person starting a bandwagon tends to be less suspected than the ones who jump on it later, which in turn, being common knowledge, can make it safer for a wolf to cast the first vote for somebody than to latch on to a previous vote, which in turn etc. regressus ad infinitum. Isn't Werewolf fun?)

OK, bedtime again (indeed long past it). See you later!

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Honestly though, why would a wolf be actively looking for an easy lynch? Far more sensible to just go with the flow and come up with a mildly credible explanation afterwards. Or baiting - and then passing it off as the smart ploy of an ordinary villager. Rikae?

I do agree Nessa looks fairly bad after Ozban's untimely end.

Baiting? Well, you would know.

Seriously, you don't think a wolf would be actively seeking reason for suspicion, but you do think a wolf would make a completely unfounded accusation that leaves her open to easy attack? Why?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

Because last Night it was 20 against 4. 4/20=2/10=1/5 (don't lynch me for doing math!) For them not good odds and on Day 1 they might have thought that they could give a lousy excuse and get away with it. Well, that would be my reasoning.

No, it's simpler than that.

Because wolves need to be active, and helpful, and look like they're trying to catch a wolf. Unless it's wolf-on-wolf, it needs to be manufactured suspicion, and odd behavior makes an excellent foundation for that.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

And this feels a bit self-conscious, if you don't mind my saying so. As does your first post toDay.

I can see your point, but self-conscious is not a trait I usually associate with Inzilawolf. Actually, I'm feeling pretty good about Zil.

Now, here's where I'd usually make a list, and I started to, before I realized it went like this:

I trust me

I sorta trust Zil

Maybe I could see Nessa as a wolf and if I squint really hard, Valier a little bit?

Everone else is hopeless.

So, I figured it wasn't really work the space necessary to write out all the names.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Initial thoughts: Ozban is an interesting kill as players tend to leave those who haven't played for a while alive - unless there's a good reason. Definite Seer hint in there, eh? Eh?

I'd read less into Kath's death, because the urge to kill Kath is completely understandable at all times. (I will have a look at Kath, of course)

I'd probably agree. Ozban's death is the more strange of the two, given that this is only his second WW game, and there are still many players who weren't that familiar with him. Could it be as simple as the no-trace? Why didn't they go after one of the "names", who tend to be harder to lynch?

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Ok, not sure why certain people today find the lynching of Sally an obvious blunder - we had no idea who to string up! I didn't vote for her, but I'm not going to just assume that evil folk were involved in her slaying. Can people explain what was so wrong about choosing Sally (without referring to hindsight, naturally).

Well, I wasn't here for the ending of the Day, but I hadn't thought anything evil of Sally. I am merely curious to know what was in the thoughts of her voters.

Originally Posted by Cailín

Right now, I have a good feeling about Legate, Lommy, Rikae and strangely enough about Inzil, though he seems somewhat paranoid. Reason tells me Boromir88, Eomer and Kitanna are innocent. Pure insanity tells me Aganzir probably is worth keeping alive as well.

The wolves are almost certainly A Little Green, Macalaure, Loslote and Nessa (confidence is key).

Paranoid? I don't think you've got to see me in Paranoia Mode yet.

I'm still not comfortable with Nessa.
Mac worries me because he's been unnaturally passive, for him. Ordinarily, he's already called for my lynch by now.

Originally Posted by Cailín

I hope this information will suffice for those interested in forming an opinion on my part in this plot or building a case against me. I will return later or tomorrow with something more substantial.

That's rather an odd thing to say. Whether it's evil-odd, or just odd, I don't know.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Maybe I could see Nessa as a wolf and if I squint really hard, Valier a little bit?

Trouble is, I'm not that familiar with Val. I think I've only been in one game with her. I wasn't all that impressed with her vote for me, but obviously all those who joined her weren't evil.
There was this, in which she promised to "help this village rid itself of these baddies", which could have been one of those lupine assertions of innocence.

She started suspecting me here, before anyone had voted for me, but waited over an hour, until both Boro and Kath voted me before she followed suit. A wolf wanting an innocent to go along before committing?

[Kitanna]

Ahem. I don't have the time I thought I would have. I misjudged the DL times with my schedule and I now know this isn't going to work. I just don't have the time to dedicate. That said...

I'm the village hunter. I figure I should give you the choice to lynch me and suggest someone for me to kill with me. I realize this could mean two innocents die if no one agrees and I get lynched and take down an innocent. This plan has problems, but one way or another I won't be alive that much longer, so I thought it'd be worth a shot to try to get a wolf too.

I'm super sorry about this.

EDIT: I only have about nine hours to send the mod god my choice, so if I don't see a consensus I'll just pick who I think is guilty.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. Well, Kit, I hate to hear that. I don't see what you as a baddie would gain by false-revealing as the Hunter, so I'm inclined to believe you. I might say Nessa, just now. Or Val? Hearing people's suggestions could be informative in itself.

[Macalaure]

I'd like to apologise in advance. This post is bigger than I wanted it to be...


The lynch

Lottie is the first to suspect Sally a little. Jokes that she's not responsible if it turns into a bandwaggon. (Inzil criticises this later)
Pitch is annoyed that Sally suspects him for no apparent reason.
Kitanna gives some points against her.
Shasta is bothered that he can't read her.
Agan is the first to suspect her because she's too quiet. She repeats it in another post.

In her big post, Sally goes after Lommy (mildly), Skip, and Pitch.

Pitch defended Sally's quietness before, but then attacks her after her big post. What I don't like is that he continues saying that he doesn't know what to think of her. It's fishy.

Skip accuses her of twisting his words, which will later also be the reason he votes for her (he's second, Nessa leads by 4 at the time). Not a good reason, though.

Wilwa joins later with two posts. She's the first to vote for her, at a time when the vote is already plenty spread out.

Lottie just says Sally still worries her. She will give Sally a crucial third vote (though she said she crossed with Skip).

Lommy could vote for Sally, but doesn't say why. After her vote (4, putting her in the lead) she pulls a Lommy and feels like Sally is probably innocent.

Agan says she will probably vote for Sally for her cobbler comment. She will vote for her later (crossing with Lommy's)

Out of the voters, Wilwa doesn't looks that suspicious and more genuine. Skip doesn't look very bad. Lottie looks fishy. Lommy and Aganzir look bad because they put her in the lead and use bad or little reasons. In any case, though, Sally was not a very likely lynch until very late, so if a wolf was on the line, I'm sure a better person to vote for could have been found. Pitch's behaviour is a bit fishy, as I said.


The dead

Neither Ozban nor Kath were talked about much, so it's most likely they were killed to leave us no trail.

BG looks better (she suspected Ozban, and usually (though not always) you don't kill the people you suspect during the day)
Aganzir looks better (for noting that she never played with him - you don't usually kill those on Day1) (I think Lommy and somebody else also said something like this, but I can't find it anymore)

Ozban is very slightly suspicious of Inzil, Nessa, and Agan. A bit more of Sally. He votes Nessa while rhyming, not giving any more reasons. I suppose it's possible a wolf-Nessa could have thought he was the seer, but I somehow don't believe it.
Kath suspects Inzil, Legate, Wilwa.
This makes Inzil look better. There was no need for him to kill two who slightly suspected him.

Wilwa is the only one who actually goes after Kath a little. This makes her look better (see BG above).

Lommy states she never played with Ozban and is happy to play with Kath again - very unlikely she would sanction killing both of them.


The general voting and how it makes me feel

Cailín -> Aganzir (neutral)
Kitanna -> Pitch (very good, because I agree with her)
Legate -> Lottie (neutral)
Rikae -> Wilwa (neutral)
Inzil -> Nessa (not so happy)
Shasta -> Lottie (not so good)
Boro -> Inzil (bad, because I don't understand why)
Sally -> Pitch(2)
Ozban -> Nessa(2)
Wilwa -> Sally (neutral)
Pitch -> Nessa(3) (baddie-baddie-bad-bad)
Kath -> Inzil(2)
Valier -> Inzil(3) (major eyebrow-raiser)
Nessa -> Rikae (neutral)
Eomer -> Nessa(4) (not good at all - this Nessa-waggon, I don't like it)
Skip -> Sally(2) (not so good)
e-d -> Pitch (neutral)
Lottie -> Sally(3) (not good)
Lommy -> Sally(4) (not good)
Aganzir -> Sally(5) (not good)


General comments

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Greenie has posted a little more at least - mostly joining Mac in seeing cobbler hints in Agan's each and every post; which is entirely possible. I mean, Agan is daring enough to sort of hide in the open, and I remember an Agan-cobbler who talked about the cobbler all the time; but since our primary aim is not to lynch the cobbler but the wolves, I'm disinclined to vote her for the time being.

Greenie is safely under my radar at the moment, so I don't know about her, but you are definitely misinterpreting/misrepresenting what I said. I didn't see Aganzir hinting everywhere, just exactly once, and definitely not in the open, but as concealed as possible. Also, I never intended to vote Aganzir, for exactly the reason you state.

Originally Posted by Pee-Wee

now some people have nothing better to do than looking for the cobbler? I'm looking at you, Mac.

It was by no means the only thing I talked about. I'd also say it's better than the bantering or endless role/rule discussion we see so much on Day1, so come on.

I don't like it how you keep on saying I only talk about Aganzir and cobblers and that that makes you suspicious of me. The fact I suspected you is not the real reason, by any chance?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

No. It won't work - unless the Cobbler says it in the thread. So if the wolves get sally's name tonight, they can go back and realise "Hey, she said this!" I really really really don't like this point.

Interesting. When I accused you of doing exactly this, you didn't understand what I was talking about. Then you say this to Sally. I think if I had actually caught you doing this, you would not direct people's attention to somebody else doing it after "playing dumb" first. You're off the cobbler-hook for now.

Originally Posted by wilwa

It was not in the village's best interest to draw attention to this idea.

Actually it was. As Agan and I said, the cobbler needs to give a hint on the thread. Unless the cobbler already did so and got away with it, it will be pretty hard now.

Originally Posted by Legate

Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird.

Weird, I'd say. Why would you want to put yourself into such a situation on Day2? Inzil got some votes yesterDay, but no major cases brought forward - he was not under immediate pressure to get lynched toDay.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Ok, not sure why certain people today find the lynching of Sally an obvious blunder - we had no idea who to string up!

Maybe I'm paranoid, but this sounds like an attempt to cover up the fact that a fellow wolf was in the running yesterDay, too.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Mac worries me because he's been unnaturally passive, for him. Ordinarily, he's already called for my lynch by now.

I think the former I dealt with now. The latter will have to wait, since I don't suspect you yet.

Seeing all the Ozban-was-the-seer-and-dreamt-of-Nessa talk gives me the idea the wolves might have killed Ozban to frame Nessa and orchestrate an easy lynch for toDay.


Reading over everything, I found myself getting worried about Boro. I will have to reread his posts before I can make my mind up and give reasons.


These are all just thoughts, and some of the stated suspicions contradict. I'll sum this all up later.

-crossed since Kitanna. Oh, man...

[Inziladun]

Wow, Mac. That looks.....pretty darned logical, and well reasoned.

[Valier]

Akk the day has gotten away from me...I'm trying to find time to read everything, but thought I'd better get a few of my thoughts down.
So after forcing myself to read Mac's longggg post (sorry) I actually agree with him on Kath and Ozzy's deaths. I think they would have been easy D1 kills, not overly traceable to anyone in particular. The wolves would have to be seasoned or gungho players to start with a strategic kill on the first night. or they are just going with the flow and killing two "easier" kills. What I don't quite get is why they weren't trying harder to nab the seer? I didn't think either of them was the seer.
On the Kitanna 'sitiation, that sucks that you don't have the time to play Kit, it was nice playing in a game with you again no matter how short. I do think we should come up with a plan to use your going to the villages advantage. Hmmm I'm going to give this some thought.
As to Inzil's suggestion as to you taking me down with Kit, I would want some more evidence as to my guilt. There is no way that I think I should be the one to die. That would be a waste of this chance oportunity. I know it never helps to out and out say your Innocent, that only makes everyone suspect you more....but hey I am and I just wanna stick around and help catch some wolves

[elronds_daughter]

I'll try to give a more substantial post once I've had some sleep, but my feelings at the moment are...

Mac makes sense to me, and I can't seem him being guilty.

Inzil is behaving not at all like the Inzilawolf I have seen before, so I'm inclined to trust him.

I'm mildly worried about almost everyone who killed Sally. The lack of adequate reasoning bewilders me; but, then again, it may just have been Day-1 paranoia.

I still don't like the vibes I'm getting from Pitch.

Eomer worries me. There is a bit too much defensiveness...

Not really sure about other people. Legate is very analytical, but seems to me he's usually like that.

On the whole Kitanna situation...this is highly tragic. There may be tears.

Right, well. Now I've said my piece and I'm off to bed.