Did Maedhros kill Laughter?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by skip spence

What in the name of Morgoth is this thread?

Hehehe. I'm not entirely sure either.

*pats poor Esty and prepares an offering to the Chat Skwerls*

[Pitchwife]

Much to my own surprise, I feel moved to defend Urwen on the question of Lalaithberry's transformation. Back in BoLT, Turin and Nienor(i) were said to have been purified in Fôs 'Almir, the Bath of the Flame, after their death and counted among the Valar afterwards. Most likely this early conception was long abandoned by the time Tolkien wrote the Narn, but it shows that the idea of a similar posthumous fate for their sister is not as utterly un-Tolkienian as it seems at first sight.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Much to my own surprise, I feel moved to defend Urwen on the question of Lalaithberry's transformation. Back in BoLT, Turin and Nienor(i) were said to have been purified in Fôs 'Almir, the Bath of the Flame, after their death and counted among the Valar afterwards. Most likely this early conception was long abandoned by the time Tolkien wrote the Narn, but it shows that the idea of a similar posthumous fate for their sister is not as utterly un-Tolkienian as it seems at first sight.

Yes, but that's Book of Lost Tales– very different conception of– well, everything, really. Was Lalaith even in that?

Besides, how could Lalaithberry kill Glaurung, etc. anyway?

Or has she just abandoned all her previous goals, Urwen? Come on, you can't give up now!

[Beorn of Carrock]

Lalaith isn't mentioned in the Book of Lost Tales.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Beorn of Carrock

Lalaith isn't mentioned in the Book of Lost Tales.

Thanks, Beorn.

I didn't think so.

[Urwen]

All right.I'll give you something to work with.

(FIRST AGE OF SUN,AT TOL-N-GAURHOTH)

Sauron left his tower, when a voice spoke.Sauron felt a grip on his neck.

VOICE: You're Morgoth's servant,aren't you?

SAURON:Yes...

VOICE:Well,he could have you back if he undos the curse on Turin and Nienor...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

All right.I'll give you something to work with.

(FIRST AGE OF SUN,AT TOL-N-GAURHOTH)

Sauron left his tower, when a voice spoke.Sauron felt a grip on his neck.

VOICE: You're Morgoth's servant,aren't you?

SAURON:Yes...

VOICE:Well,he could have you back if he undos the curse on Turin and Nienor...

You have your chronology mixed up, my dear. There was no tower on Tol-in-Gaurhoth by the time Morgoth cursed Húrin's kiddies. It had been Lúthiened*.

That aside... um... what's the point of all this?
*is overcome by sudden sense of déjà vu*



*She rules, by the way, and don't let Mithalwen tell you any different.

[Urwen]

The point is that Morgoth couldn't afford losing his best henchman,so he'll surely undo his curse.And without the curse,Turin and Nienor will be saved.

Which takes care of Lalaith's first goal...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The point is that Morgoth couldn't afford losing his best henchman,so he'll surely undo his curse.And without the curse,Turin and Nienor will be saved.

Which takes care of Lalaith's first goal...

I don't get it. Is the "Voice" supposed to be Lalaith? Is she taking Sauron hostage? Her and what army?

[Urwen]

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!

Nerwen asked her and what army, not her and what flock. Much as I admire a good flock, they're just feathers and pointy little beaks.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!

1. Geese? Spiders? Ponies?

2. Finrod was dead by this point.

3. How did she get into Gondolin? How did she get Turgon to agree?

4. Ever wondered why the good guys never actually tried this?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

1. Geese? Spiders? Ponies?

2. Finrod was dead by this point.

3. How did she get into Gondolin? How did she get Turgon to agree?

4. Ever wondered why the good guys never actually tried this?

And Nerwen with the intelligent canonical approach. Please insert two quarters and try again, Urwen. I think we'd all love to hear a proper defense for Lalaith, and who better to give it than such a devoted fanchild? Dazzle us with some actual logic, if you please!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I think we'd all love to hear a proper defense for Lalaith, and who better to give it than such a devoted fanchild? Dazzle us with some actual logic, if you please!

I'm not exactly holding my breath.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm not exactly holding my breath.

I'd hope not! By the time Urwen got back on the Downs and thought of a reply you'd likely be dead, just like Lalaith.

Hey, maybe then YOU could have an army of ducks....erm, geese!

[Urwen]

Lalaith was a happy child, and was compared to an Elven child by most people. Túrin loved his little sister, but "he played with her seldom, and liked better to guard her unseen and watch her going upon grass or under tree, as she sang such songs as the children of the Edain made long ago".[1]
But in the autumn of the year when Urwen was three, a pestilent wind, called the 'Evil Breath', came to Hithlum from Angband, and both Túrin and Lalaith were taken sick. Túrin recovered from the plague, but his sister died.

And why the plague came?

Because Maedhros was too rash.

Judge:You're guilty,Maedhros!You're guilty for murder of three year old girl.

Maedhros(lowers head):I am...

See? He himself admits it!

[satansaloser2005]

....Or she did too much singing underneath those darn trees, was out too much in the cold, caught hypothermia (although of course it was adorable hypothermia!) and died because she didn't have the common sense to wear a sweater. Kids!

(Yes, people, I am being facetious.)

And it wasn't Maedhros' fault he was rash. He probably caught it from another kid who didn't have the sense to go in from the cold and gave him some illness. I honestly feel bad for people like that, because he's being blamed for killing one child when clearly other people had to have died and he's missing out on all that limelight (which I'm sure he would thoroughly enjoy). People these days....


*waits for Nerwen's even more amusing response*

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Lalaith was a happy child, and was compared to an Elven child by most people. Túrin loved his little sister, but "he played with her seldom, and liked better to guard her unseen and watch her going upon grass or under tree, as she sang such songs as the children of the Edain made long ago".[1]
But in the autumn of the year when Urwen was three, a pestilent wind, called the 'Evil Breath', came to Hithlum from Angband, and both Túrin and Lalaith were taken sick. Túrin recovered from the plague, but his sister died.

And why the plague came?

Because Maedhros was too rash.

Judge:You're guilty,Maedhros!You're guilty for murder of three year old girl.

Maedhros(lowers head):I am...

See? He himself admits it!

Now you're just putting words into the characters' mouths. You can't win that way.

Let me try it:

Lalaith: I am really Morgoth in disguise!

See?

And as for the rest of it– all you're doing is repeating your original argument. We've all explained to you why it doesn't hold water. Over and over and over again.

You've never managed to come up with a counter-argument– you just re-state the original a slightly different way, and hope no-one will notice.

One word: FAIL.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

....Or she did too much singing underneath those darn trees, was out too much in the cold, caught hypothermia (although of course it was adorable hypothermia!) and died because she didn't have the common sense to wear a sweater. Kids!

(Yes, people, I am being facetious.)

And it wasn't Maedhros' fault he was rash. He probably caught it from another kid who didn't have the sense to go in from the cold and gave him some illness. I honestly feel bad for people like that, because he's being blamed for killing one child when clearly other people had to have died and he's missing out on all that limelight (which I'm sure he would thoroughly enjoy). People these days....

Ah, but Maedhros didn't even infect her. The bad guy got irritated at him and tried his hand at biological warfare, which indeed killed a bunch of people, including this one kid that Urwen's obsessed with. Really. That's what happened.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

*waits for Nerwen's even more amusing response*

Afraid it wasn't that amusing this time. Sorry. You see, this ground is all too well-trodden. Whenever Urwen gets foiled with her current Goddess!Lalaith scenario, she attempts to go back and start all over again. It's tiring.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ah, but Maedhros didn't even infect her. The bad guy got irritated at him and tried his hand at biological warfare, which indeed killed a bunch of people, including this one kid that Urwen's obsessed with. Really. That's what happened.



Afraid it wasn't that amusing this time. Sorry. You see, this ground is all too well-trodden. Whenever Urwen gets foiled with her current Goddess!Lalaith scenario, she attempts to go back and start all over again. It's tiring.

*snickers* I actually rather assumed that, but figured I'd throw a bone out there anyway. Although I bet that rash made him some enemies.

And fear not, it is! Erm, was, whatever. And if it's tiring, why bother responding? Wait for the phantom to get back on and eat her or something. He's good at that. (Although I must say I do enjoy your replies. Blessings to you, oh speaker of sense, reason, and sarcasm, may fail everywhere flee from you.)

Silly is as Sally does, but this is just ridiculous. Although again, entertaining.

[Urwen]

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

WHAT? Morgoth working through Lalaith?!

He, she and me are angry at you for even thinking that!

[Pitchwife]

Ah, but sally and Nerwen, you're forgetting that Lalaith was resurrected and Maiarized by Ulmo, so bringing Finrod back from Mandos wouldn't have been an unsurmountable problem.
I think I can see how it happened...

Eru: Ulmo, My son, what do you think you're doing? You can't just withhold My Gift from one of My Younger Children and make her one of your Maiar. You know that's against the axan. What's worse, it's also uncanonical.
Ulmo: *sighs* You tell her that. I tried to...
Eru: Dear Lalaith, My Beloved Child, of course you want to see your friends, geese and family again; and so you shall, when My Second Music will be sung and Arda will be healed. But now it is time for you to move on beyond the circles of the world to a much better fate I have prepared for you. Arda Marred is no place for a young girl like you. You have suffered enough there in your short life, you deserve better. Trust Me and see!
Lalaith: But I want to! I'm awesome and cute, and I want to! Now! *stomps foot* Besides, if you don't let me, I'll put lizards in your pillow!
Eru: *throws up hands in frustration* OK then...
Morgoth (who has been eavesdropping): *snickers* Serves you right, old man!

[Urwen]

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

One need not think Maedhros awesome to think him innocent in this matter.

For that matter, one need not think Eöl, Sauron, Mîm, Andróg, Ar-Pharazôn, or Bill Ferny are awesome in order to pronounce them innocent on this score. Personally speaking, I'm rather fond of Maedhros, and see him as one of the more admirable members of the Finwëan royal house, and one of the most tragic, but that's beside the point. Unlike my silly list of characters given just above, Maedhros, it is true, is connected with the plague that caused Lalaith's death, but this is in no way incriminating. Unfortunate, but not incriminating.

Of course, it's also worth point out that I don't think Lalaith is awesome (unless we mean the Bianca-avatared Downs version). She's a child--undeniably cute and probably endearing... but does she strike a sense of "awe"?

No.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Lalaith: I am really Morgoth in disguise!

But this theory makes so much sense!

Originally Posted by Urwen

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

WHAT? Morgoth working through Lalaith?!

He, she and me are angry at you for even thinking that!

What do Finrod and Andreth have to do with anything? Andreth never even met her, as far as I know. And neither did Finrod. And Nerwen didn't say Morgoth was working through Lalaith. She said Morgoth was Lalaith. (Admitedly this was a joke, but I am inclinded to have a bit more fun with it. )

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Ah, but sally and Nerwen, you're forgetting that Lalaith was resurrected and Maiarized by Ulmo, so bringing Finrod back from Mandos wouldn't have been an unsurmountable problem.
I think I can see how it happened...

Eru: Ulmo, My son, what do you think you're doing? You can't just withhold My Gift from one of My Younger Children and make her one of your Maiar. You know that's against the axan. What's worse, it's also uncanonical.
Ulmo: *sighs* You tell her that. I tried to...
Eru: Dear Lalaith, My Beloved Child, of course you want to see your friends, geese and family again; and so you shall, when My Second Music will be sung and Arda will be healed. But now it is time for you to move on beyond the circles of the world to a much better fate I have prepared for you. Arda Marred is no place for a young girl like you. You have suffered enough there in your short life, you deserve better. Trust Me and see!
Lalaith: But I want to! I'm awesome and cute, and I want to! Now! *stomps foot* Besides, if you don't let me, I'll put lizards in your pillow!
Eru: *throws up hands in frustration* OK then...
Morgoth (who has been eavesdropping): *snickers* Serves you right, old man!

On a slightly more serious note: really, you just can't allow random divine intervention and power-ups in these "what-if?" topics. It simply breaks the whole concept.

It's like saying, "Fiver the rabbit vs Godzilla? That's easy. Fiver wins!
Because El-ahrairah would turn him into a super-bunny! Yeah! Go rabbits!"

Of course, I suspect that's exactly how Urwen would tackle that scenario.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

Urwen, what makes you think Lalaith would have lived a long, peaceful life if she hadn't died of the plague? Really don't like her chances, myself.

[Urwen]

It's like saying, "Fiver the rabbit vs Godzilla? That's easy. Fiver wins!
Because El-ahrairah would turn him into a super-bunny! Yeah! Go rabbits!"

You know of Fiver? Not fair! He's supposed to be MY secret!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

*She rules, by the way, and don't let Mithalwen tell you any different.

She so doesn't.. she does naff all until until that humungous gloop turns up. Then she gets Finrod killed. Death was too good for her.

The only interesting women in Tolkien are blondes .... Galadriel, Idril, Nienor, Erendis, Eowyn. The brunettes are deified but dreary.

[Nerwen]

...And Mithalwen takes the bait!

P.S. Erendis was "dark haired", anyway. Says so right here in Unfinished Tales.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You know of Fiver? Not fair! He's supposed to be MY secret!

I think you'll find quite a lot of people have read Watership Down, Urwen. Not that much of a secret, really.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

...And Mithalwen takes the bait!

P.S. Erendis was "dark haired", anyway. Says so right here in Unfinished Tales.

Indeed, how strange... I must have her confused with someone else.. or that because her beauty was "unlike" and Numenoreans are usually dark haired and grey eyed I must have mentally transposed... how do you get three smileys in one post anyway...?

Some of us have even seen the film... always a mistake to take small children thinking it is a nice bunny story... if you want a kick-donkey bunny you need Bigwig. Or in a Tolkien context Isildur's hare (beats Legolas' paws down).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Then she gets Finrod killed.

I'd think if anybody beyond Sauron and his pet wolves can be held responsible for that at all, it would have to be Beren, or actually rather Celegorm & Curufin. Luthien has an alibi - she was working on her escape from the tree-house at the time.
Caught the virus from Urwen already?

[Eorl of Rohan]

Why am I delighted to see a Watership Down reference in a Tolkien Forum? I must have never grown up...
Tolkien makes my heart leap with excitement, while Watership Down makes it all fluffy with content.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It's like saying, "Fiver the rabbit vs Godzilla? That's easy. Fiver wins!
Because El-ahrairah would turn him into a super-bunny! Yeah! Go rabbits!"

I'd bet on Fiver. He's wicked smart.

Originally Posted by Urwen

You know of Fiver? Not fair! He's supposed to be MY secret!

If he's your secret, then I'm not trusting you with any of mine.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

She so doesn't.. she does naff all until until that humungous gloop turns up. Then she gets Finrod killed. Death was too good for her.

The only interesting women in Tolkien are blondes .... Galadriel, Idril, Nienor, Erendis, Eowyn. The brunettes are deified but dreary.

Agreed. You all should read my Luthiet and Bereo story.

[Urwen]

But seriously,Lalaith could have lived to grow up. I mean,even Fiver's bro died of old age,not because General killed him! I mean,really...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'd think if anybody beyond Sauron and his pet wolves can be held responsible for that at all, it would have to be Beren, or actually rather Celegorm & Curufin. Luthien has an alibi - she was working on her escape from the tree-house at the time.
Caught the virus from Urwen already?

No I have been banging on about this for probably longer than she has been alive..Finrod would have been nowhere near the mutts if it hadn't been for the canary's crush or Mr Gormless... I never understand why Luthien is meant to be so powerful when she hasn't mastered the knack of getting round Daddy that most females have nailed by six months...

[Oddwen]

So...if we're changing indiscriminate parts of the Silmarillion to keep Lalaith alive, I want to introduce a character to Maedhros who can possibly persuade him to give up violence forever.

I've put a lot of thought into this. After a battle this elf-princess of no particular kingdom would come across him while he is wounded, and nurse him back to health, impressing him with her gentle and peacelike ways. She would be tall and womanly, with long blonde hair and piercing green eyes. She is very accomplished in singing, dancing, fainting, cooking, magick, healing, and killing only when absolutely needed.

The only flaw in her is that she looks exactly like me. Not that there's anything wrong with me, I thought I would give her some realism
so this serious character is not confused with a common Mary-Sue.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

The only flaw in her is that she looks exactly like me. Not that there's anything wrong with me, I thought I would give her some realism
so this serious character is not confused with a common Mary-Sue.

Oh good. I'm glad we've got that point cleared up.

[Urwen]

I'm baaaackkk!!!

And I thought up a good scenario.

(At harbour)

Cirdan:Who goes?

Goose:I!

Cirdan:Come back here!!! (chases goose)

(Meanwhille,Lalaith and gang sneak up onto ship and hide in chameleonic way.Geese join them and also hide in chameleonic way...)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

(Meanwhille,Lalaith and gang sneak up onto ship and hide in chameleonic way.Geese join them and also hide in chameleonic way...)

Chameleonic?

What is she now, Predator!Lalaith?