Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And anyway, I'm not what you might think I am so just let it come baddies! The village only loses an ordo with me.

Really? Then never mind. I was going to suggest that the Knight protect you this Night instead of me, but since you don't mind I'm going to go ahead and request that he do what he had originally planned and stick with me.

Which Knight? Both of them. Just to be safe. And I believe that both Bishops should dream of me too. And the Rooks should hunt me! Erm... wait... never mind that last one.

[wilwarin538]

Alright, my random thoughts, and my vote.

Mirandir: not much from him, so don't really have a feel yet

Durelin: voted for Sally, I find him (her?, sorry!), interesting and somewhat entertaining, inclined to keep him around

Fea: love her and am very excited to be playing with her, therefore she's safe.....for toDay atleast

Izzy: I'm inclined to think innocent so far, nothing's popping out at me.

Nerwen: Seems to be thinking logically, got randomly voted for so I feel bad for her.

Eomer: aw Eomer, voted for Sally aswell, so cryptic, though he has fooled me in the past I'm gonna give him a chance, he's definitely entertaining

the phantom: is safe toDay for me because he's smart and because he said this :

Good to see you again Wilwa. I remember that it was you who hosted one of the best Werewolf games ever.

Brinniel: Don't really have much on her, said she would be back later but I'll be asleep by then, so not sure yet, a maybe perhaps, on my list

Sally: got voted for twice already, had computer difficulties, I understand that, won't be holding it against her today

Gwathagor: Said he's unsure of the random voting going on, though in my opinion that's all Day 1 is about, there's nothing to base anything on so a few people vote random and everyone else voting later just copies or votes random themselves, unavoidable. So I don't know about him either, but he's on my list.

Lariren: Focused on roles alot, though so did most, but posted a fairly lengthy post so I'm inclined to let her be for now

Rikae: Voted for Eonwe, I have a good feeling about her, like her style, for now

Eonwe: (Steve is it?) Voted for Gwath, not sure about him either, posts alot but not necessarily anything concrete, on my list

Nogrod: called me Wilva, but I think I can forgive him for now, seems innocently enough

Mnemo: Confusing, but he's a noobie so I'm not really gonna consider him at all today

Kath: Have some past experience with her, I know that random vote for Nerwen isn't exactly like her, though it makes me uneasy I'd like to give her another day

Hansy: voted for Fea, I too like the way he thinks, and along with that he's new so I'm willing to keep him around

So that's the best I've got for toDay, Day 2 will be a lot better for me and I'll probably be going back and rereading everything and saying a lot more.

So my vote I suppose now, since I definitely won't be getting back on toDay.

For me it's between Brinniel, Gwathagor and Eonwe.

Don't want to bring another person into the mix, so between Gwath and Eonwe I will vote for:

++Eonwe

Hopefully I will see you all next Day.

edit: x-posted, with lots of people

[Mirandir]

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally
Rikae ++Steve
Hansy ++Fea
Lari ++Nog
Nog ++Fea
wilwa ++Steve

Sally - 2, Fea - 2, Steve - 2, Nerwen, Hansy, Gwath, and Nog - 1

And left to vote is Isa, Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Gwath, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

If you were an innocent and thought I was the seer you would have stayed silent about it.

I must have missed something. When did Fea not stay silent when she thought you were the Seer? I see that after it looked like you weren't, she spoke up and said what she had been thinking, but I don't remember her saying anything earlier about it. Did I miss something?

[Nerwen]

Where does Fea say she thinks Nog is the Seer? I can't find it.

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Hansy reads to me like what would happen if I'd created an alias account, signed up to play two roles (myself as Fea and my alter ego as Hansy), and was sitting back watching the chaos.

I hope that's not a confession...

EDIT: X'd since Gwath at #160.

[Gwathagor]

Ok, I find Nogrod's argument intriguing - that if an innocent Fea thought Nog was even possibly a seer, there's no way she would point it out.

[Nerwen]

Er– Mirandir, you've listed Steve twice.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath.

[Gwathagor]

Ok, I better just do it.

++Fea

I really think Nog's right about this.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Ok, I find Nogrod's argument intriguing - that if an innocent Fea thought Nog was even possibly a seer, there's no way she would point it out.

But Gwath, where does she say it?

EDIT: X'd with Gwath again.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

I really think Nog's right about this.

What is he right about? Will you or Nog share it with me?

And it appears Nerwen wants to know as well.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Where does Fea say she thinks Nog is the Seer? I can't find it.



I hope that's not a confession...

No no, that would be much to obvious. Clearly she'd be much more deceptive about it and create some controversy between her egos. Agreeing about everything is just suspicious.

So I've been sitting here for the past twoish hours trying to get enough focus together to make an awesome list and am ashamed to say have failed quite epically. My initial suspicion of Hansy still holds, mostly because the striking similarities between his style and that of both Fea and the phantom. While I haven't played with tp before, I did follow one of his games and have played with Fea, as well as followed a game with her. Both are the hardest people I have encountered in terms of reading and ideally having them both out of the way early on would be the least confusing, but probably detrimental to the chess game at hand.

SO. Just checked the rules in the case of a tie vote, and the lynch is randomized between all the people involved. This could be incredibly dangerous and I don't particularly want to add another person to the list of two votes each and thus will be waiting just a little while longer to see if anything else unfolds before voting.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Er– Mirandir, you've listed Steve twice.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath.

My bad. All fixed now. Blame the x-posting.

[Mnemosyne]

Grah, this whole Fea/Noggie thing is turning into a debacle and I have the feeling that the black pieces are just sitting back and rubbing their hands with glee.

As far as I can tell, what happened was this: Fea took a very subtle Noggie comment to be a seer hint, and hinted back.

But since Noggie went all ?!? in response to that (though I'd like to see the post that made Fea think so) she realized her theory was complete and utter rubbish and then decided to explain the whole thing, now that she was reasonably sure that Nog was not the seer.

That hinting that she did? I definitely didn't pick up on, which doesn't mean squat. In fact, I thought it was nice and subtle: "Nog has an interesting way of saying things on Day 1." I thought after she posted the whole explanation that the only way that anyone would have figured out what exactly she meant was someone else who was in on the plan--though Valar know a lot crazier communications have gone on.

Now, it was the wee hours of the morn for Nog when he voted, so he may have been genuinely confused. But Gwath? You have some explaining to do!

*sigh*

When Fea looks the most suspicious, she's actually innocent...

[Mirandir]

So shortly before deadline we're at:

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally
Rikae ++Steve
Hansy ++Fea
Lari ++Nog
Nog ++Fea
wilwa ++Steve
Gwath ++ Fea

Fea - 3, Sally - 2, Steve - 2, Nerwen, Hansy, Gwath, and Nog - 1

Isa, Nerwen, tp, Brinn, sally, Mnem, Kath, Hansy and Mira still have to vote.

[Isabellkya]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

An odd question– the usual cobbler role-description is "on the side of the wolf-team".

.

Why is it an odd question?
The usual Cobbler role is in a game where there is only one team of baddies. I don't know what the original or "official" role descriptions are for WereBear and Cobbler - I just know the gist of it. But, usually, in terms of the Cobbler - if dreamed of do they show up as a Cobbler, or an ordo? I can't remember from past games.


X'd since Gwath's #160.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Which I then thought... what if Nog is a seer and dreamed of the Black Queen on the very first night, and is hinting that Hansy aka Solo is the Black Queen!?!

My jaw dropped, I thought, "No... that's impossible." But then I thought "But then why did he capitalize Solo if not because of the Han stuff?" And then I was sitting there rereading all of this "But what if the Black Queen wants to help the good guys" stuff from Hansy, and what else what I supposed to do when I was supposed to be assuring my paternal aunts that I'm getting good grades?

But then, Nog, you were like "Say what? Fea, you're on crack." which made me then feel quite confident that I was, in fact, grasping at straws out of a rather desperate hope that Day Ones may, at some point in my life, prove useful.

Here we go.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Why is it an odd question?
The usual Cobbler role is in a game where there is only one team of baddies. I don't know what the original or "official" role descriptions are for WereBear and Cobbler - I just know the gist of it. But, usually, in terms of the Cobbler - if dreamed of do they show up as a Cobbler, or an ordo? I can't remember from past games.

In this game at least, they're dreamed as an ordo.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Black Pawn - Cobbler. If dreamt, appears as an ordinary innocent.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Fea

But then, Nog, you were like "Say what? Fea, you're on crack." which made me then feel quite confident that I was, in fact, grasping at straws out of a rather desperate hope that Day Ones may, at some point in my life, prove useful.

Which I took to mean, Gwath, that Fea realized that her entire Seer Conspiracy Theory was complete and utter bunk and so now she was explaining the whole thing (i.e., why she made that cryptic comment to begin with).

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Which I took to mean, Gwath, that Fea realized that her entire Seer Conspiracy Theory was complete and utter bunk and so now she was explaining the whole thing (i.e., why she made that cryptic comment to begin with).

I think that Fea is too smart not to have taken into account the possibility that her comment would be enough to make the baddies consider whether Nogrod might actually be the Seer. Therefore, I think it likely she knew exactly what she did. It was just enough of hint to draw the baddies' attention to Nogrod, but not enough to make it look like she was painting a target on his back or something. Does that make sense?

[Nogrod]

Just brushed my teeth at 6.45 (glad it's Sunday)

tp and Nerwen you should think again - maybe I just didn't make the point clearly enough. Fea made that weird voting-post where she said she votes for Hansy and then casually adds that

Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.

After that - after I questioned her about that addition of me "saying interesting things on Day1" (which looks like a deliberate formulation) in her vote-post, she explained she had thought me to be the seer who got the Black Queen on the first Night (with all that stuff with Lommy's first name in Finnish and Hansy vs. Han Solo etc.). That looks like genuine to me. She probably thought that IRL as it's too complicated to fabricate just like that. But why did she voice it in the first place if she really thought I was the seer? And why did she explain it that openly after being asked about it? A goodie would have not acted that way if she had that kind of an idea... but to a cobbler (or with different scenarios possibly other baddies as well) it might have been a decent thing to do.

The initial comment bothers me and also the way some people rush to explain it. Fea's explanation looks good as it's probably earnest but the reason she made the first remark looks more shadowy. And remember that she can be frank about her reasons for wrongly thinking me the seer even if she's a baddie but she can't explain why she had to make that unconnected remark in the first place.

Any ideas why she made it? Other than trying to hint to some other(s) with evil intentions about a possible treat for the Night?

[the phantom]

Ah, I think I see what Nog was talking about. I'm not sure what Gwath is talking about though. The section you quoted was after the fact. Fea's Seer theory had already been blown away, so it was merely an explanation for her behavior.

What I believe Nog was referencing was the fact that Fea had actually referred to him in the post where she voted, in a round-about way citing him as a reason for her vote for Hansy.

While it may have been reckless, it seems to me that it was less straightforward than it could have been (which makes her look better), while at the same time leaving an obvious opening for Nog to hint back and confirm her suspicions. Essentially, she was hoping she had spotted the Seer and was trying to see if she could work with him.

In my mind, the only crime here was that she was a bit reckless. I mean- what if it had turned out that she was right? And then suppose someone questioned why she mentioned Nog as support for her vote- how could she have explained that away in a manner that did not point a death-arrow at NogBishop?

Did you have a plan for that Fea?

X-post with Nog and Gwath

[Mnemosyne]

To Gwath:

I suppose so. I thought it was just Fea being Fea and putting random crap into her post to confuse the heck out of people when it happened. You make more sense, but I still think lynching Fea is a big mistake at this point in the game.

[Nogrod]

Intreresting that you Nerwen and tp seem to be trying to cross-examine Gwath but do not bring forwards any positive solutions if you really think Fea is innocent - or if you know she is not...

Bring forwards a better case and I will consider retracking myself.

[Brinniel]

Mirandir: Has only made a few posts so far and none make me think anything of her. I need more time and more from her to get a better read.

Durelin: I don't like her vote for Sally, but then again also I don't think it's necessarily suspicious. Dury is a mysterious one, and she was lynched too quickly last game for that reason. She is one to watch closely, but I'd rather not see her go just yet.

Fea: Hmm...I don't have any strong opinions about her as of now, though I know I do have a tendency to suspect her. She's one who always makes me wonder about her role, that's for sure. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing her lynched simply for the sake that I wouldn't have to be left guessing what her role could be Day after Day. But still, that's not a great reason, so I probably would only vote her if I could find no other candidate I prefer.

Izzy: I can imagine her to be quite the sneaky baddie. But so far I like what she's said and have no reason to vote her.

Nerwen: I'm pretty neutral about her as of now. I need to see more posts from her before I can form any sort of opinion.

Eomer: He at least gave a reason for his vote, even though I don't particularly agree with it. Too mysterious for me to form an opinion on him just yet.

the phantom: I've liked what he's said so far; his posts are rather sensible and he seems innocentish to me. That probably means that he is, in fact, guilty.

Sally: Little substance and a lot of banter, but that's quite typical coming from Sally. She looks more innocentish than guilty to me, and since she is unable to get online to defend herself from the ones who voted for her, I'd rather not see her lynched toDay.

Gwathagor: Makes several one-liner posts. Which I don't like, but just because I don't agree with his style doesn't mean he's necessarily guilty. However, he was quite quick to bandwagon based only on a comment from Nogrod. I just don't like when someone votes for another only based on another player's reasoning.

Lariren: Has been very thoughtful. I feel good about her so far.

wilwarin: Well, I don't like that she warns that her vote may look like a suspicious bandwagon vote long before she actually does vote. But then again, I can understand how hard it is to get a good read of anyone on Day 1 when you're not familiar with anyone's styles. I was quite thrilled to see her join this game since I know she's an early WW player and I have never had the opportunity to play with her before. So I'd rather not see her go anytime soon.

Rikae: Not raising any alarm right now, but she is one I'd like to keep a close eye on as she can be quite dangerous when evil.

Eonwe: Says a lot about roles and little about other players. That alone can be a bit suspicious, though it's a bit early to tell.

Nogrod: So far seems like the typical Nogrod, which could point either way as to where his true alliance lies. But if innocent, he can be quite helpful, so I'd rather not see him go so early again. Plus, I do feel a bit guilty that I was partially responsible for his last two early deaths.

Nemo (c'mon, it's not that bad to share the nickname with an adorable clown fish ): Is near the top of the post count on this thread...quite impressive for a newbie. Then again, I can hardly call her a newbie. She's been watching us for quite sometime now, and just because she hasn't actively played until now doesn't mean she hasn't learned to strategise and fool us all. I like that she's been so active, but I can't help but feel slightly worried about her. I won't vote her toDay because she is a new addition, but she is one I'd like to watch closely.

Kath: Yeah, her vote was random but it seems like a typical Kath-has-no-time move. She's voted randomly before and it doesn't point to either innocence or guilt.

Hansy: Is an interesting new addition. I could tell he was familiar with WW, but at the same time he seems a bit confused with the rules. Could be an act, or he could just be adjusting to a WW game that's dramatically different from anything he's ever played...I think it's the latter. Don't care for his "revenge" vote, though. Voting someone just because they voted you is just taking the easy way out. He could be anything.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

What I believe Nog was referencing was the fact that Fea had actually referred to him in the post where she voted, in a round-about way citing him as a reason for her vote for Hansy.

Well, it took time for you to see it... I only referred to it something like five times...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

But why did she voice it in the first place if she really thought I was the seer?

I wouldn't go so far as to say she voiced it. She merely made a comment that is impossible to understand that mentioned you in it.

As I said earlier, it was a bit reckless to make a comment that is difficult to explain your way out of, but she may have been banking on no one even bothering to say anything about it. I don't know.

I understand your reaction completely, but I'm thinking this sort of thing falls right into line with the sort of person Fea is.

And why did she explain it that openly after being asked about it?

Now this I'm not with you on. The fact that you asked her about it made it clear to her that her theory was wrong (if it was correct you would've reacted much differently), so why not just explain?

[Brinniel]

I will probably end up voting for one of these players:

Fea
Eonwe
Gwath

[Mnemosyne]

To Nog

I think the whole thing is just a huge distraction at the moment, especially considering how close to dl it is, and that we need to focus on other portions of the game and other people. Now that I see where the exact area of confusion lies I certainly won't begrudge you and Gwath your votes. But I don't want to let Fea die, not yet.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I think that Fea is too smart not to have taken into account the possibility that her comment would be enough to make the baddies consider whether Nogrod might actually be the Seer. Therefore, I think it likely she knew exactly what she did. It was just enough of hint to draw the baddies' attention to Nogrod, but not enough to make it look like she was painting a target on his back or something. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does, actually. The bit I couldn't find was her explanation (the Star Wars stuff).

It's rather headache-inducing. The original comment doesn't seem like much– in fact I was surprised Nogrod reacted to it– but she does appear to be saying she thought Nogrod was the Seer at the time she made it.

EDIT: x'd since Nog at #180.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

Well, it took time for you to see it... I only referred to it something like five times...

Sorry about that. I'm having difficulty keeping everything straight tonight. I'm trying to do several other things at the same time. Big day tomorrow.

[Mnemosyne]

Also, Nog, the reason I at least was going after Gwath was because he took up your argument so willingly and voted rather quickly too. Looks tricksy, that.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Now this I'm not with you on. The fact that you asked her about it made it clear to her that her theory was wrong (if it was correct you would've reacted much differently)

I can see the way you defend Fea both socially and argumentatively, but with the latter I still disagree. Wouldn't you - both as a seer or as an ordo - have asked her to check what she will answer? Would you have left that kind of thing just to the chance if the baddies notice it or not and you gain nothing of it? Of course you would have asked about it were you an innocent as it's a possibility to get hints from a baddie. Sure you would. Only if you had no pressing need for any information would you have left that kind of a chance untested? So what are your loyalities this time tp?

[the phantom]

As far as saying that Fea was trying to call attention to Nog in hopes that he'd die during the Night...

Why would she do that?

If she's a WereWolf- kill him tonight.

If she's the WereBear- kill him tonight.

Why bother hinting or anything of the sort?

Unless you're saying she's the Black Pawn, but if that's the case she could've been more careful and then right before deadline post her case as to why Nog is the White Bishop and request he be lynched. Plus, is a Pawn all we're gunning for anyway?

Yeah, yeah, it's better than hitting a Gifted, but still. I don't know. If she's guilty then the Black Pawn is the only thing that I think she could be. I don't think the chance of such a small pay-off is worth it, especially as her behavior is consistent with typical meddling reckless devious Fea that we know and love.

And no, I'm not trying to say your votes are bad. You've given your reasons, and I can see where you are coming from. Frankly you have a better case of guilt than any that I have right now, so I'll at least give you that.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

I think the whole thing is just a huge distraction at the moment, especially considering how close to dl it is, and that we need to focus on other portions of the game and other people.

I'm all ears with other possibilities - as I said already - it looks like I'm awake anyway...

And I see your point about Gwath taking my argument. It has certain merits indeed. But how about you all picking the "save Fea" -argument whatever the cost? Doesn't it look suspicious at all?

To me it looks more like a social reason for voting than actually playing the game... Yeah, it's nice to play with good friends - and I like to play it with Fea but now I just think that arguments support her guilt more.

I waiting for a better case.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

Wouldn't you - both as a seer or as an ordo - have asked her to check what she will answer?

I guess this is where we split ways. No- as a Seer who dreamed Hansy as the WereBear I would not have questioned her. Definitely not! It would call attention to it. It would scream "Kill me, WereCreatures!"

What would I do? I would make some sort of subtle comment back (a wink or nudge basically) letting her know that she was doing well, or something along those lines. I would figure "She's spotted it, so if she's a WereCreature I'm dead tonight anyway. I might as well gamble that she's not and see if I can forge a useful alliance."

[Isabellkya]

At first I was quite confused as to what Phantom and Nerwen thought they had missed. It made me think I had missed something as well.
But, Fea's explanation of her "cryptic" hint or what have you - seemed to be nothing out of the ordinary for her.


I am going to stick with my earlier doubts. It may be your style, which I can't blame you for. I had a brief chance to try and sift through your past games - and only had time to quickly go through your most recent one's first Day. You seemed to be a bit more aggressive in it, than you are here. What that says, not entirely sure. I'd rather vote for one I've got doubts on, than leave it to a toss of a die.

++Gwath


X'ed since Nog's #185.

[Mnemosyne]

I'd like to save Fea because to me she looks like an innocent Fea. Besides, even if she's a tricky player her posts have punch to them, enough to stir up the pot and create situations like these which, maybe a Day from now, we can all analyze with clearer heads and see if they tell us anything about those involved.

I'm currently trying to look at players who haven't said much, with little to no opinions that players can work off of. That's the sign of a good sneak.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

As far as saying that Fea was trying to call attention to Nog in hopes that he'd die during the Night...

Why would she do that?

If she's a WereWolf- kill him tonight.

If she's the WereBear- kill him tonight.

Why bother hinting or anything of the sort?

Unless you're saying she's the Black Pawn, but if that's the case she could've been more careful and then right before deadline post her case as to why Nog is the White Bishop and request he be lynched. Plus, is a Pawn all we're gunning for anyway?

I assumed they were saying she's the Black Pawn. Although, now that you mention it, one of the other baddies might try to get a reaction out of the suspected Seer, as a test.

Your theory, meanwhile, is that innocent Fea was trying to hint to the Seer? Very foolhardy– but possible, knowing her.

EDIT: X'd since tp at #193.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

So what are your loyalities this time tp?

I will aid whoever tells me I'm smart and funny.

Originally Posted by Nog

waiting for a better case.

You won't get one from me. I have no guilty vibes thus far. I certainly suspect one or two people of being more than Pawns, but as I think they are just as likely to be White pieces, I'm not about to name them right before the WereCreatures get their Nightly kills. I'll read this day through tomorrow and then I'll be able to make a couple of cases.

At least I hope so.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Yeah, yeah, it's better than hitting a Gifted, but still. I don't know. If she's guilty then the Black Pawn is the only thing that I think she could be. I don't think the chance of such a small pay-off is worth it.

What I think is that she has no good intentions - whatever her role is. You may be right about her being the Black Pawn. It's the most probable answer. I agree. But as you said yourself: better a cobbler hanged than a gifted - or do you have a more believable case against a baddie? With Fea I feel we get someone who's not on the good side.

I wouldn't go for Fea with null reasons on Day1. Nope. Never. But now I think we're really after a baddie - even if just a cobbler she might be - and who knows if we get a bigger fish...