Tol-in-Gaurhoth LI: The Pain of Wargs

[Mithalwen]

Groin it its the "helpfulness" I find suspicious.... so much posting ... gettin hard to see wood forom trees ....

[Thinlómien]

Kath doing a Kitalysis too? Excellent. Having two different analyses or summaries is always better than just one.

Originally Posted by Kath

Oh, and might I say having only just noticed - Lommy ... Kathie? Please no. Kat, Kath, Kate, Katy, Katherine, oy you, any of them, but please don't make me sound like some middle aged person trying to sound young!

Sorry, I obviously had no idea it has that kind of sound to you...

Kitanna about others
#28 Legate is sort of innocent & helpful, I am sort of innocent, Samwise, Gwath and Gollum are in the middle and are restating stuff Legate said.
#33 Says to Gwath that restating stuff is muddying the waters. Asks Rune if he can clarify why does he think I might be trying to trick other villagers.
#35 Clarifies her wording for Nog who didn't understand her.
#41 Thanks Rune for clarifying, says my list may mean absolutely nothing but might come in handy later, notes that Kath, Groin and Di haven't appeared yet.
#57 Questions Sam's behaviour, argues with Legate, asks Gollum to give grounds for why he thinks I'm acting queerly.
#68 Says she finds Sam a little suspicious, replies to Nogrod.
#71 Votes Kath randomly.

Others about Kitanna
Me in #21 - don't like her way of just popping in to say hi. I say she could be a wolf trying to maintain a presence, (but I don't really think that way).
Gwath in #30 - is offended byt Kit saying he's merely restating stuff.
Nogrod #34 - is puzzled about her, says her sayings are interesting. Wonders if she's looking for easy lynches (Sam, Gwath, Golly) and says that if he'd have to vote right then he'd vote Sam or Kit.
Rune #36 - answers her question.
Legate #38 - replied to her saying he's helpful.
Sam #40 - says she's probably innocent.
Legate #42 - is not sure about her.
Legate #46 - gets what she meant about my list.
Nogrod #67 - says she feels innnocentish but has reservations.
Legate #72 - says he won't vote her.
Kath #78 - says she seems bit time limited. What???

And that's it.

I couldn't note anything special she said/did that would look like a reason to her death, unless you discount the fact that she's very smart. She wasn't the only smart person in this village, though, so that's a bad reason...

Okay, what about those contacts then? Difficult to say. At least I don't think she talks seerishly about anyone's guilt or innocence. There's no one that should be afraid of her future attacks and thus want to remove her either as she doesn't really suspect anyone strongly. I can't think of anyone who would have any other special reason to kill her either. So I think the reason lies elsewhere. Maybe she was just killed in order to confuse us or leave no tracks.

edit: xed with everybody since my last post

[Groin Redbeard]

I have to go right now, I've given my reasons and Lommy is at the top of my suspect list right now (Nogrod is still next, but hasn't shown his true colors yet).

++Lommy

EDIT: X'ed with Lommy and Mith

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Nog says Kitanna's first post worries him as it's a 'here I am' one. Basically repeats her next post adding no information on why the mention of Lommy worries him.

Legate questions the 'fodder' comment about Lommy - good questions actually.

Are we reading the same thread Kath? In the thread I have before my eyes I ask Kit about that "fodder" -thingy about Lommy and Kit answers my question about it. Only after that Legate makes his comment about it, starting it with "When I saw this, I wanted to ask you about it, and even though Nogrod did too and you answered"...

Also the way you let us understand that Kit suddenly realised Sam was a gifted and shut her mouth (but Nogrod went on lynching him because of that) has just plain malice in it. Who of you really thought Sam was a gifted, hand on your heart, yesterDay?

Originally Posted by Kath

Kitanna clears Samwise from her voting possibilities with good reason and continues to argue with Nogrod.

That was no arguing, she explained her post as I had asked for an explanation. Look at it.

Nog is being very 'oh it could be this but then' which I'm not sure is like him, and he seems to be misunderstanding a lot of things this game. Could be a tactic.

Kath misunderstanding people - could be a tactic
Kath misquoting the thread - could be a tactic
Kath misinterpreting people - could be a tactic
Kath choosing which things to quote - could be a tactic.

Wonderful arguments, aren't they?

Although I'd like to hear where I have misunderstood something? Even more so if you think that has been tactical...

Oh my, yet again a host of posts done while I've been fact-checking...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Heya, folks. Not sure if I'm gonna be able to post before the DL (I am posting from my RPG-friends'), but I will try to at least read the thread and maybe vote - according to my thoughts before. Haven't read the thread yet since my last post, just letting you know, so that you know (I may also not vote at all, in the worst case).

[Kath]

Woah Nogrod, no. I wasn't saying that you thought Samwise was Gifted and therefore kept going after him, simply that Kitanna may have figured it out and backed off. I never thought that you'd worked it out.

I will go back and look at the 'fodder' thing. I may well have got names muddled actually as I thought it seemed odd that Legate would mention the same comment twice. If you're right on that then I apologise and my opinions switch. You look more innocent, Legate more suspicious.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

Lommy says Kitanna is the only one who has really been suspected which really isn't the case when you look at how people were treating Samwise. As well as that Lommy herself had been under some suspicion. It's just an odd thing to say it when it clearly wasn't the case. Says she'd rather Kitanna stayed alive - covering her bases because she planned to kill her that Night?

(Oh, of course. Looks like I skipped that post in my summary. I'm not used to reading ww thread so that I don't skip my own posts.) What I said about Kit was just how I saw the situation. Too bad if it was faulty. (I'm not even sure if it was, but I don't think it's a thing that merits checking.) But really, why would I intentionally mis-state something if I was a wolf? The odds of getting caught are pretty high and the profits are small.

I don't really know what to think of Groin's sudden change of opinion. Seems rather fishy, if you ask me. I mean, he stops suspecting Nogrod because other people don't? Huh? And then he starts suspecting me with rather questionable grounds. I appreciate he reasons his sayings but I don't agree with what he says about me. I know I don't (didn't ) really suspect anyone, but that just sometimes happens. And I think it's a bad reason to suspect someone who's critical. Being uncritical is far more questionable, if you ask me. Groin seems also a bit too easily charmed by helpfulness: it doesn't even look like it's his honest reaction to "helpful posting" but like using the argument as a means of exonerating a few people easily. (Could be even exonerating fellow wolves, who knows.) I didn't suspect Groin at all before this, I think people were misundertasning his campaign against Nogrod, but with a few post Groin managed to make it to my top suspect. Great.


edit: xed with Legate and Kath

[Mithalwen]

++ Legate of Amon Lanc

Not too helpful to be a traitor.. and there was that paradigm thing and the vote for Sam. I don't believe a traitor would pass up the chance to bag a gifted (if Samwise was "spotted" on day one just not to look suspicious.

[Nogrod]

We seem to be going as mad as yesterDay...

Rune -> Mith
Brinn -> Groin
Gollum -> Nogrod
Di -> Brinn
Groin -> Lommy
Mith -> Legate

Six votes, six candidates!

Not good!


Whomever Gollum would have voted I'm somewhat ready to vote him out just because of that attitude:

Crud, gotta go! No explanation for my vote!

Had he been the most vocal before that one it would be different but that's basically all he has offered us two Days now.

I mean we're sharing a game here and the game consists of people actually playing the game. And if someone wishes to test the limits of the game we should as the players of that game make them clear.

But I hope I have better ideas before the end.

Groin's sudden change of mind kind of makes me wonder... And Kath's seemingly intentional misrepresentations also raise an eyebrow.

And I have not forgotten my theory of lovers added in three Nights in a row when the first pair is Lommy and Legate but of the second one I have no clue as yet. Maybe it's only after them (three pairs) the real villain will be introduced - something like a werebear kind of creature who wins alone or with the remaining lover-pairs.

Remember, in pairs they come...


EDIT: X'd with a few and corrected the tally after Mith's vote

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, I don't want to risk it and would rather vote now. I WILL be at the Downs, but it may be in about an hour or even more (hour and fifteen minutes, hour and half), and that may not be sufficient even for Eomer's benevolent DL.
Anyway, I haven't really READ the thread, merely skimmed through it, and I did not see anything too special that would catch my eye, although a few things maybe did, but I couldn't look into them deeper. Anyway - from all people, I am now thinking about voting Brinn, I would merely second what I said before: even though she seems posting more today than before, she is too unconflicting, too "nice" in the way that non-attention-bringing, you know the stuff...

And

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Hey, I've made it past Day 3 and have been innocent before. Of course I usually wind up being a misguided ordo who suspects all the wrong people...so maybe you should just lynch me.

I was of course not taking this seriously, but anyway, why are you saying this? This is silly, and it fits this un-conflict-y pattern of you too - it's that you so un-problematically accept the pattern that is outlined here for you (i.e. in this case, somebody says you are suspicious, and you in fact are nodding to him and unconflictingly accept his proposal, so to say).

Therefore

++Brinniel

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

And one word to Nogrod: Oh my, but sure you are not being THAT serious... (okay, that was 10 words (originally just two))

[Thinlómien]

Ok, I don't know if I will be here until the deadline, it's rather late and I have still some school stuff to do before I got to sleep (or then I have to wake up earlier tomorrow because of them). Well, we'll see how this goes...

Now, a little summary-ish.

Innocentish
Gaunt - speaks in a way a wolf just wouldn't.
Rune - I get a good feel from his posts. He mostly makes sense and seems innocent.

Slightly innocentish
Nogrod - seems innocently reasonable and jokes like innocent Nogrod usually does. Also has the agrressive edge a wolf-Nogrod often lacks. But he's very good at bluffing, so I'm very far from certain...

Middle
Legate - I find it hard to say anything about him. There's nothing to make me alarmed, but I know he can cheat a whole village (like someone said) and he does have any "aura of innocence" either. I think I need to keep an eye on him.
Shasta - I don't feel I have enough data to go on.
Mith - has some valid points and a generally slightly innocentishly feel, but is fishily single-minded (doesn't talk about other people than me very much).
Diamond - well, really, what can you say? I hope she will have more time in future...
Gwath - sleeps under my reindeer, really. I have a vague recollection he has made me uneasy in this game, but I don't remember why. Maybe I should go through his posts and check. He lacks the jumpiness of the wolf-Gwaths I've known, though.

Slightly suspicious
Kath - this is a gut-feeling thing. She just seems fishy, somehow, her tone seems insincere.
Brinniel - seems a little jumpy and some things she says just don't make much sense.
Gollum - I have hard time trying to decide whether he's so fishy because he's a newbie, or because he's a wolf. He doesn't seem to give much reasons for his opinions and goes with the flow.

Suspicious
Groin - see my previous post.


edit: xed with Mith, Noggie and Leggie

[Thinlómien]

Hmmm... now that was some good points against Legate and Brinn. I know they've been stated before but now they started to make more sense. I need to think about these things...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And I have not forgotten my theory of lovers added in three Nights in a row when the first pair is Lommy and Legate but of the second one I have no clue as yet.

Are you just continuing the joke, or are you seriously suggesting that we're lovers?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't really know what to think of Groin's sudden change of opinion. Seems rather fishy, if you ask me. I mean, he stops suspecting Nogrod because other people don't? Huh?

Add to this the way he ended his second "lynch Nogrod" post toDay with his theory that I was covering Lommy or Legate as my packmate from the fearsome attack of Gollum the Great :

I my view this sounds very wolfish. I'll wait to see what y'all say.

My only problem with this interpretation is that he might actually be like that... Not too self-confident and wishing for the confirmation of others - and ready to back away if seeing he's challenged.

In that case we lose one innocent if we lynch him.

Btw. if you ask me why I keep on bringing up that lover-idea I'm just wishing you to remember that is a possibility when I'm not around reminding you about it. four or six baddies in a village of 15 is just too much, even if they foght each other as well. But three pairs of lovers with an extra baddie might limit a believable scenario.

I'll have to check that narration for toDay once more to see if there is any sense in this...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Mith - has some valid points and a generally slightly innocentishly feel, but is fishily single-minded (doesn't talk about other people than me very much).
[

Ooh wish I could change my vote .. you have played with me long enough to know that singlemindedness is fairly characteristic.... I often get hung up on one player but when I am evil I try to spread the suspicion.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Are you just continuing the joke, or are you seriously suggesting that we're lovers?

Funny you should both be so interested in this question... I have already been Dr. Love in WW for Rikae and Mac so why not...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

My only problem with this interpretation is that he might actually be like that... Not too self-confident and wishing for the confirmation of others - and ready to back away if seeing he's challenged.

He has been asking advice from others as an innocent before, so I wouldn't use it as an argument against him. But it doesn't change the fact that other stuff he has done is rather fishy.

(Sorry for the over-using of the word "fishy" by the way. I just can't think of a better one and I've been thinking about fish quite a lot today for various reasons. )


edit: xed with Mith and Nog

[Kath]

Hmm, so I did go back and look and Nog was right so my suspicions have switched there. Now I am going to have to disappear so I'll vote.

++LEGATE

For the reasons I previously had against Nog!

[Gwathagor]

Hi everyone. I'm here.

Time to read.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mith

Ooh wish I could change my vote .. you have played with me long enough to know that singlemindedness is fairly characteristic.... I often get hung up on one player but when I am evil I try to spread the suspicion.

I know, but not this much, I think. Or okay, yes you have - when you were cobbler last time we played together. (Or then I just remember/pay attention to it all the times I've been the victim of it... *does not know whether rolleyes or wink would be more fitting*)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Funny you should both be so interested in this question... I have already been Dr. Love in WW for Rikae and Mac so why not...

I think it's natural to want to know whether someone really suspects you or is just having fun at your expense. Besides, I don't need any love-doctoring, and especially not on the part of my father...!!!

edit: xed with Kath and Gwath - hey, that rhymes... kind of. Haha.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Deliverance earned through chance, whatever Wargs are in the time gathered.

Now this would point towards there being a struggle between who gets the kill in the first place - so at least two different sides wishing to do that.

That "whatever wargs are" stuff makes me a bit nervous about my interpretation might be true indeed (or then Eomer is just toying with that idea I brought forwards yesterDay and playing me for a fool). I mean why say "whatever wargs are" if not hinting at different ways some of us are tied into this carnage - like with lovers one is the baddie and one is the "goodie" with the intention of her/his baddie winning...

But this rest is just Greek to me ("Hebrew to me" would be the Finnish wording of the same thing):

The carnage begins and the originator steps nearer. Unseen is he who shadows the master. Both march to our bleak axis, the confirmation of our pain, towards the slayers we experience as harrowers.

the originator, the unseen who shadows the master? the master = the originator? the slayers?

Oh my... that may be the end of my nice lovers-idea... But if it is, we're really in trouble with that many villains to kill us...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Besides, I don't need any love-doctoring, and especially not on the part of my father...!!!

If we lived in the Indian or Pakistani countryside it would be different...

Good we don't live there though...

*Sorry, I just couldn't resit the joke that so fitted my real suspicions*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

About 15 minutes left. Get your votes in soon!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod, underlining mine

*Sorry, I just couldn't resit the joke that so fitted my real suspicions*

Thanks for clarification.

I just realised it's less than 15min until the deadline... I will probably vote Groin but I'm having slight last-minute doubts...


edit: xed with the modgod

[Thinlómien]

So, Brinn and Legate at two votes, I, Nogrod, Groin and Mith at one? It's either Groin or Brinn for me, then...

[Nogrod]

There are Brinn and Legate with 2 votes and Gollum has none, so we'd need three for him.

Of those two I'd trust Brinn more than Legate. As you said Lommy, Groin is a possibility but I'm afraid of the outcome as well...

Looking at the more assuring side of it: he tried to capitulate with the flow they had after the ranger was lynched and he saw there was a chance to get me into the hook but backtracked when he saw it was turning against him...

EDIT: X'd with Lommy

[Gwathagor]

Ok, I had initially meant to see if Groin maintained his attack against Nogrod tomorrow in order to better judge the motives behind it; however, the rapidity with which he dropped the suspicion toDay after it was called into question by a number of players looks to me like evidence of a guilty conscience, and his explanation (i.e. he was only "testing" Nogrod) is nothing if not flimsy.

++ Groin

EDIT: Crossed with Lommy and Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

It's either Groin or Brinn for me, then...

So you shy away from Legate in the storm even if you manage to suspect him slightly in low seas...?

X'd with Gwath

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So you shy away from Legate in the storm even if you manage to suspect him slightly in low seas...?

Heijjjjj.......... I never said I suspect him! Just go and see. (And as we're reputedly lovers, of course I would act that way if I had suspected him... )

Seriously though,

++Groin

Sometimes I just don't like making choices but let's hope I'm right about this now...

[Nogrod]

You're too quiet Lommy to be honest in this! You're awaiting something...

Okay. I'm testing both my theory and Lommy at the same time

++ Legate

X'd with Lommy!!!!!

*There goes my test...*

[Gaunt]

I am voting for:

++ Groin Redbeard

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

X'd with Lommy!!!!!

Yes, sorry, now I feel terribly evil.

[Nogrod]

Well that was sealed now anyway...

Now we'll just keep our thumbs up.

And don't you forget the lovers idea...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Closed. Groin Redbeard will die shortly.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Warg Elders had remained peaceable, even by this stage of proceedings. Rancour had not yet come between them, though the panic they found themselves in was sure to lead to bitterness, directed by cruel tormentors.

Groin Redbeard had been today chosen. He peered around his shaking self, unsure of how to act: his friends were about to cut his throat. They leapt upon him, and the deed was done swiftly. Redbeard’s yowl of pain halted, and his once proud form limped to the floor. It remained there, pitiful and unchanging. The Elders had again chosen not well; another innocent Warg had been taken from the world, and it was thus diminished.

---------------------------------------------


The Living

Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Kath
Nogrod
Gwathagor
Shastanis Althreduin
Brinniel
Mithalwen
Diamond
Gollum The Great
Rune Son of Bjarne
Gaunt

The Dead

SamwiseGamgee (Guardian)
Kitanna (Warg)
Groin Redbeard (Warg)



Night 3 is upon us. There is no talking in the village. Villains, send me a name; Seer, send me a name.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In the blackest night, a figure entered the ancient hold of the Wargs; and with the first rays of the sun to reach Middle-earth, in stole another.

The walls of Eomer had been studied further, in the gloom of the dusk, and through the night by some Wargs who could find no sleep. Incrementally, more of Eomer’s words were brought to light. Tied by the same rope, they part not, though the master who follows his abettors walks in ignorance, seeing us only. His brother knows him, and is hidden from him, driven by a purpose involving us not heavily; yet the murder of one Warg, as was required for him to enter into and thrive in our council, is the same evil. So we find them, locked in war: it reaches even here. Every night a good Warg slain. Salvific council! Behold thon savage aperture! It splits our delusion and forces the admission of helplessness, of our pain.

Nogrod was found that morning, his guts ripped open. That splendid Warg of unsurpassed intellect among the Elders of that period, his great mind would be lost for time unknown. His fellows were devastated.


-------------------------------------------------


The Living

Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Kath
Gwathagor
Shastanis Althreduin
Brinniel
Mithalwen
Diamond
Gollum The Great
Rune Son of Bjarne
Gaunt

The Dead

SamwiseGamgee (Guardian)
Kitanna (Warg)
Groin Redbeard (Warg)
Nogrod (Warg)



Day 3 has begun.

[Thinlómien]

Nogrod died? That was quite unexpected... he was suspected quite a lot. Was he suspected of seerdom, then? (Or is somebody trying to get rid of dangerous people, or confuse us, or what?) Interesting, no doubt... I will have a look at Nogrod's posts (aiee what a job ) sometime toDay, possibly right now, and see if they reveal something.

[Thinlómien]

No one else around? Fine... Then I will have a look at Nog's posts from yesterDay now.

[Gollum the Great]

Wow! This comes as a complete surprise! This completely alters my view on Nogrod.

[Thinlómien]

I'm not going to make a proper analysis as it would take ages and I don't feel it would be of that much use. I'll just post here the things that caught my attention:

Nogrod suspected
Gollum and Gwath, just a little, for dropping in and voting at the last minute on the previous Day. Ended up suspecting Gollum more than Gwath.
Suspected Kath.
(Half-jokingly) suspected Lommy and Legate of loverism.

Nogrod thought innocent
Mith, Brinn and Gaunt.

I don't think Nogrod's suspicions look seerish. He's too uncertain about them and/or has too many reservations. His list of innocents then... maybe? Maybe something in the way he talked about Brinn and Mith and Gaunt made the wolves think he had dreamt of two of them? I think he at least supported Mith and Brinn's innocence without much reservations... Hm....

Others' attitudes to Nogrod
Gwathagor considered him innocentish.
Rune was unsure about him but inclined to consider him innocent.
Legate didn't find him particularly suspicious.
Gollum suspected him.
Brinn wasn't enthusiastic to lynch him.
Gaunt argued with him and suspected him a little.
Kath found him suspicious but retracted much of that later when Nogrod corrected her.
Lommy found him innocentish.
The rest did not talk about him yesterDay.

I don't know what to make of this. It really doesn't look like anyone would have had especially many or few reasons to kill him. Except that Brinn and Rune and if there were other people who did so too would be rather two-faced if they were wolves: say they don't want to lynch Nog and then go and kill him. I'm not saying it's impossible or even improbable, but it's rather nasty.

Nogrod tried to interpret the rules a few times. Maybe the wolves know more than we do and killed him because he was getting too close to the truth about the rules? (Like, maybe I and Legate really are lovers and were scared he would convince others that his so very serious theory is correct? ) He didn't have any very clear theories though, except the possibility of lovers, which I myself consider unlikely. I think we would know if this was a lover game and I think no mod would start the game with just two baddies who both die and lose the game if one of them dies. Looks a little too unfair.

Okay, in conclusion: I think Nogrod was killed to a) remove a smart guy, b) to confuse us or c) because he was suspected of seerism and at least two of Mith, Brinn and Gaunt are innocent.


edit: xed with Golly

[Diamond18]

Nogrod, dead, eh? Well that can only mean one thing; the culprit(s) are quiet people! Who fear Nogrod's searching eye and also find it annoying to have to read all his posts in the short time they have online before they have to make a post/vote. So, you know, I don't know who around here could possibly fit that bill...

In all seriousness though, I do kind of find Nogrod to be an odd choice for a kill. He garners a lot of attention and would be someone you could try to rustle up a lynch mob for. The only reason I can think of to kill him at night is suspicion of seerdom.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Okay, in conclusion: I think Nogrod was killed to a) remove a smart guy, b) to confuse us or c) because he was suspected of seerism and at least two of Mith, Brinn and Gaunt are innocent.

I lean more towards option C (obviously, as stated) so I might hold off on voting for those people, at least for this Day.