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#161 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I don't think that modship needs to take the appearance that it has in its most recent incarnation, but I still think it's good for there to be a point of access before games start, even if it's just, "Hey, I'm thinking of running this game, sound good?" Quote:
But definitely, I don't think the mod needs to start game threads anymore. I should add that before I joined here, I lurked, and I did use some of the finished games as fan fiction reading. I think that's why I'm more concerned with making sure that RPs are structured in the sense of, yes, they have a story to tell, and that story has a concrete beginning and ending. The Inns are fine for less concrete stuff, but really, Durelin, is it okay to have long-term stories that are more or less free-form, that players can hop into and out of? It's just a concept that's alien to me, probably because I got acquainted with RPs as a reader, and I write fan fiction, and I'm a big continuity geek. That's why I'm so much more interested in lots of short-term, intense games that can have some character overlap, because they allow for new people to get involved more easily without necessarily sacrificing the clarity of what it is we're doing. I have to run, but I guess the question is if my reservations about an open world system are just me. And even if it isn't just me, is this something about RP culture that we can and should change?
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#162 |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,779
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Can someone please clarify a word for me?
How do you mean "mod" when you use that term? Are you referring to my job right now as the overall RPG forum moderator -- or do you mostly mean "mod" as it seems to be used in WW as the game initiator/facilitator. Thanks! ~*~ Pio
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#163 | ||
Dead Serious
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I should probably clarify that when I say "subject to Mod approval" I really just mean running it by the Mod as a formality. One would have to have a rather inappropriate topic indeed to find it vetoed. In this schema, the Mod approval would not extent to the Mod starting all the threads, as is currently the case--merely saying "sure, no problem" by PM to the game creator. Since the Mod(s) has powers to delete and move threads, this need not even be by PM, as the Mod could remove offending threads with the click of a button. The advantage to PMing the Mod first is that you know this won't happen (and thus suffer no embarassment), but it's safe to say that pretty much any active RPer on the Downs could probably start a "safe" thread under this system and not have to worry about that. Of course, I might simply be projecting too much of my own mental picture of said Mod onto this theoretical Mod, and that a real human being in said position might be in a trickier position than I imagine (though... having said that, I really don't think so... but I'm cocky that way). Quote:
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#164 |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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I'm just ducking in here really quickly, but I'd like to say I like Formy's idea a lot.
Another idea I'd just like to throw out there - it just occurred to me and I haven't really thought it through, but what if we also created a place (forum? subforum? or maybe a new place isn't really necessary) where people could just toss around ideas with each other? In my mind this serves a similar purpose to the discussion/administrative thread in werewolf where people throw around ideas for new special rules or whatnot. For example, say I'm thinking about starting an RPG but don't really have any concrete ideas... I could start a thread saying something like, "I'd like to write about x, is anyone else also interested and would you like to help come up with a plot idea?" I'm not suggesting totally getting rid of the game owner model, but this could run along side it as a more collaborative sort of thing... although maybe this is almost exactly what planning threads do now. Just a rambling thought - I have to run now. |
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#165 |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim
Posts: 619
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I'm off to work, but very quickly I'll suggest that opening up the Shire (or another forum of whatever you want to call it), for free writing without this control or that control may bring in some new people, creativity, and such. There would be general forum RP rules and guidelines that are common sense ones (using other 's characters, no one or two liner posts, etc.) but the actual tale/"game" would be up to the creator to open up or restrict. Apparently this "Wild West" style is adamantly rejected here. But It's my thought on the matter. I have to deal with too much micro and pico-management at work to want to deal with it on my own leisure time writing.
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#166 | |||
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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I'm basically with a lot of what Bethberry has said. And Mithalwen as well. Let's leave it up to people to start games/threads and determine THEIR parameters for that game/thread/story. The moderators would then be working on the front end rather than the back end, as Bethberry has suggested. Rather than having to look over every game proposal before hand, they keep an eye on what's being posted and step in only when necessary. Quote:
Piosenniel - When I say 'Mod,' such as in the note at the end of my last post, I mean forum moderator. I've started using words like initiator and other such nonsense to describe what has been known as the 'game owner' (the person who starts the game/thread) Quote:
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#167 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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The procedure for getting to Gondor is fairly straight forward. A gamer simply follows the explanations given in The Shire and Rohan. When I was Moderator of Rohan, all one had to do was run a game in Rohan successfully (which largely meant finishing it), having successfully run a game in The Shire (which got you into Rohan). I don't know if this still pertains but I would expect so. (Why Noggie isn't in Gondor, for example, might simply be that he hasn't had time to finish running a game in Rohan--my guess. Or the inclination.) So, the procedure is I think fairly clear. Play in a game in The Shire, run a game in The Shire, run a game in Rohan, your name goes on the list of Gondorian gamers. In terms of that more elusive definition of the kind of games anticipated in Gondor, there's always the option of reading games that have been played in Gondor and seeing what they are like. Maybe not all of them will fit that definition of canonicity which Mark suggested and I seconded. But reading them will surely give a person a clear idea of the complexity of the games--complexity on many different levels. (And, to be fair, as I recall when the forums were set up, we couldn't decide where to put the game called Rohan, but finally decided it belonged in the forum of its own name, Rohan. ![]() Note that neither Mark nor I wrote the description for Gondor. pio, when I say Mod or Moderator I mean your position, the one I had, Estelyn's, not facilitator or game initiator. Formy, I really think it would be better to move away from the idea that a game needs to be approved--or nodded at--by a Moderator, because I think the entire atmosphere needs to be changed whereby people take ownership for their rpg-ing. Your "as a formality" is quite different from what I think is the case now with it's character bios and extended plot lines. I mean, right now animal characters are not allowed at the Meadhall. Where does that put the game My Crow Management, which was a Rohan game, where all the characters were crows? And yes, Mnemosyne, Translations from the Elvish had a restricted list, but that was for very different reasons. Sorry if I've skipped other points but RL is being very urgent and I have a PM to reply to from pio. ![]()
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#168 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I'm getting to like Form's suggestion more and more, especially after his clarifications on it.
But I'd also like to put some flesh on the bones here by way of asking a few questions. So where would you put the following RP's? 1) "I have this idea that a bunch of people should try to get into place X to warn the king about the on-falling war brewing. I have a few obstacles laid out for you guys so let's see can you overcome them?" 2) "I have this idea that we'd collect these bunch of people escaping from enslavement and then let them meet with some fugitives from an oppising race both in as bad condition: then we could see how they would relate to each other if they had a common enemy." 3) "I have this idea we take this group and they go wandering about the forests to see if there is any adventure brewing. Anyone with a god idea about an adventure should cme forwards." 4) "I have this idea of a Mead Hall where anyone could come and go but as not to bore ourselves by just playing only social relations like those morning-soap operas in TV let's invent some plots in there every now and then to liven things up?" 5) "I have this fan-fic story of mine I would like to make you perform. I'l tell you what to do and how to write and then you do the writing under my supreme control. Anticipate me correcting your posts if I don't like them." 6) "I have this idea of a game where this odd bunch (previously unrelated an different characters) would be thrown into a shipwreck being the sole survivors. Let's see then how they would get along with each other and how they would try to get themselves back to the land?" 7) "I have this basic storyline concerning the very first Atani getting over Morgoth's trickery and reaching Yavanna & Oromë. Do you think you're up to the challenge?" As someone might have noticed, numbers 1-4 are actually near some actual games that have taken place here, and only numbers 5-7 are deliberately invented. Now using Form's categories, I'd say that game-ideas 1, 5 and 7 should belong to "Doriath" and the others to "Rivendell". Case 2 could be discussed though as the "getting there" woud require some active leading from the part of the gameowner (or whatever the term for the initiator of the game would be), but after it reached the aimed condition it would sound to me more like a Rivendell one. I don't think the length should be a decisive factor. The one initiating the game should tell others whether s/he's looking forwards to a long one or a short one - and the others could make their decisions to join or not also based on that. But what I see coming through from these examples loud and clear is that the Doriath games would be much more dependent on the gameowner while the Rivendell ones could be more collectively led. But that is no way a "writing-quality"-issue! I could see a bunch of creative and involved writers making a great story from 7) even if the gameowner had the basic outline of the story already planned - and I could see big egoes and non-co-operative players ruining story 6). Also, from the form I deliberately took up there with my examples you can see that I do think we shoud open the ownership of the RP's to anyone. Anyone could suggest a game by opening a thread and if there were enough players interested in it the people interested could play it. And if there was not, then the gme woud not go on. Okay, I can see a problem lurking here... With a new ruling given there might be a burst of new games offered and there could be something like a beauty or popularity contest involved. Even if I do also belong to the camp carrying the cards of the "less rules, less regulation" -camp, I do think we should have a few basic rules & requirements. Like that those willing to set up their own game should have played at least in one game before it - so that the others had an idea of the person and her/his reliability as a gameowner etc. (This is something I think the werewolfing community has been wise enough to regulate themselves n that vein after a few bad experiences). Taking Form's two categories would then leave us to decide on what to do with the Inns. My gut feeling would be the following. Let's make the Scarburg Mead Hall a Rivendell game with a long history behind it. The Golden Perch Inn I'm less clear about (I haven't been reading it in a long time so I'm not exactly sure how it goes nowadays). But I do think we should have a "boot camp" of sorts for those willing to familiarise themselves with RPG'ing in the 'Downs - and if it's not the GP, then we'd need to come up with a new one for that purpose (although it should be rewarding enough to the innkeeper and those others of us writing there when there is no imminent flow of new writers rushing in all the time ![]()
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#169 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I love the idea of a subforum just running ideas through, though, and seeing if there's enough interest in a particular concept or style before investing time and effort in creating a game that no one else wants to play. That could easily replace a "mod must approve all games" system, and it'd be more democratic too.
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#170 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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The Seventh Star is already a -- excuse the term-- free for all. But few post there. I wish more people would.
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#171 | ||||||
Dead Serious
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]1) "I have this idea that a bunch of people should try to get into place X to warn the king about the on-falling war brewing. I have a few obstacles laid out for you guys so let's see can you overcome them?" I would say this is a Doriath game: the motivating idea is the plot, which is driven and known by the game owner, and the "I" in "I have a few obstacles laid out" is crucial. 2) "I have this idea that we'd collect these bunch of people escaping from enslavement and then let them meet with some fugitives from an opposing race both in as bad condition: then we could see how they would relate to each other if they had a common enemy." This looks like a Rivendell game, because the main interest is in the interplay of characters, and its very open-ended in terms of what things will go. Its description pretty much begs for full player interaction to move the story along--the plot is contingent on characterisation. 3) "I have this idea we take this group and they go wandering about the forests to see if there is any adventure brewing. Anyone with a good idea about an adventure should come forwards." This could go either way. Probably, if I were a mod, I'd nudge it in the direction of Rivendell, since the person suggesting it clearly doesn't want to run things that strongly. On the other hand, this might just be someone with an idea looking for a co-mod to work with in Doriath. 4) "I have this idea of a Mead Hall where anyone could come and go but as not to bore ourselves by just playing only social relations like those morning-soap operas in TV let's invent some plots in there every now and then to liven things up?" Hey! I actually know what this one is. I'd call it a grandfather-clause exception to the rules, really--but agree it belongs in Rivendell. The mod is very much a facilitator in Rohan, rather than a game director, and the players are all very much involved in the direction the game take and the ownership of the game. 5) "I have this fan-fic story of mine I would like to make you perform. I'll tell you what to do and how to write and then you do the writing under my supreme control. Anticipate me correcting your posts if I don't like them." Well, phrased that way, I can't imagine wanting to join (actually, not true... I'd be tempted if Fea or maybe Elempi were running it), but aside from that off-topic reality, it would clearly go in Doriath. Even though this could as easily be about character as plot, the game owner clearly intends to run things. As said, even this could be fun, with the right owner. 6) "I have this idea of a game where this odd bunch (previously unrelated an different characters) would be thrown into a shipwreck being the sole survivors. Let's see then how they would get along with each other and how they would try to get themselves back to the land?" Strikes me as another Rivendell story, because the "game owner" (for lack of clear, accurate, synonym) is proposing the idea rather than planning to run it. Once again, the emphasis on characterisation is a good shorthand way of telling that this will be a player consensus game rather than a owner-rule game. 7) "I have this basic storyline concerning the very first Atani getting over Morgoth's trickery and reaching Yavanna & Oromë. Do you think you're up to the challenge?" I'd call this a Doriath game in the absence of any more info, but it would depend. There's a clear, defined plot that, to me, suggests the game owner plans to be in charge of the overall arc, nudging things in the right direction... but this could also be run with as a Rivendell game, where it's put forward as a game premise. Quote:
In other words, I wouldn't consign short games to Doriath and long ones to Rivendell (or vice versa), but I do think that Doriath games (at least) should have a planned timeframe. These can always be extended, but whether it's two weeks or two years, telling players how long a game is likely to last is an act of commitment on the part of the game owner, and given the responsibility an owner has in Doriath, that seems fair to me. Quote:
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#172 | |
Dead Serious
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*I reserve my right, however, to be a Tolkien anarcho-monarchist. :-p
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#173 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I mean here we could use the experiences of the ww-community. There we have the Tol-In-Gaurhoth -thread where people basically keep the queue of who's the next mod, what kind of games people have in mind, what kind of games people crave for, make their general views on the game as such heard etc. Mutatis mutandis, we could make somewhat similar threads for RPG'ing. People could there offer their ideas for games, probing whether their game ideas would gain interest and players, ask for certain kinds of games, discuss general issues bout the RP's... On another note: I have been talking about "games" all the time although I do remember I had a real problem with that term in the beginning (now I think I have just grown used to it). I feel the same way as some others here in not thinking an RP is a game but collaboral writing, role-playing, storytelling, having fun together... but not a "game" in a way WW is clearly a game.
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#174 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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It is some hours sine I started this so prolly superseded..
I don't think we need to get to hung up on many game rules on a forum wide level. I do think the person running it (if there is one) should have a degree of control since they are the one putting in the hard yakka. I think in a way this is more of an issue since gaming is so sparse, it has to be one size fits all. To take something positive from the werewolf games you know the style of game on offer before you sign up and if the current one doesn't suit you there will be another that might shortly. So I know I will never get my head around Duelling wizards but can sometimes be tempted by another concept or a short and sweet classic game.
If a set of expectations have been set up at the beginning of a game then any fundamental changes must be by negotiation and consensus not by fait accompli and the "Its my ball and I'm going home now" type of argument. If you don't want to collaborate then go write fanfic. That said if their is an individual taking the burden of organisation then the WW Doctrine of the divine right of moderators should apply to them! All this talk of democracy I find rather seditious and dangerous. Before we know it the RPG forum will be an anarcho-syndicalist commune and we will be taking turns to act as a sort of executive officer each week whose decisions have to be ratified at bi-weekly meetings. ![]() Basically there may be games that are like a dinner party - one or two people are organising, providing choosing the menu, setting the table, picking thr playlist etc and games that are like a potluck picnic. And possibly degrees in between. As for Gondor. I don't have a problem with it but it hasn't really impinged on my life? death? - time on the downs and that is nearly seven years now.
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#175 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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Lot to think about here.
If, hypothetically (meaning no promises), we move to a system where a member can just start up a game, how do we control quantity and quality. By quantity, I mean this. One of the big problems with the old freestyle RPG forum was that everyone and their assorted brothers, sisters and first cousins once removed was starting up a game and, of course, there were not enough players to go around and 90% of them failed. Quality is more obvious. Canonicity, a reasonable level of writing effort, if not skill, etc. A workable premise or story. It strikes me that retaining "veto" power would be more potentially embarrassing and annoying to a game facilitator/owner than some sort of simplified proposal process. I lived through the trouble. The complaints, the chatspeak, the use of RPGs to socialize rather than roleplay. I have no desire to live through that again. I fully acknowledge that everyone who has been posting here has some degree of longetivity and pedigree on the Downs. But once the door is opened...
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#176 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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I don't think the game proposal thing is a negative. It does mean the proposer has to think something through which can only help avoid problems. Especially for novices. A more experienced game proposer is hardly likely to be fazed by the procedure.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#177 | ||
Dead Serious
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Personally, I think both questions of quality and quantity would be fairly well answered by the common sense of our gamers. I don't think we'd see an overabundance of games, because even if we had scores of game owners wanting to start something... they wouldn't get anywhere if they couldn't find enough recruits. There might be a flurry of threads (or posts on an announcement board -like thread), but the majority would quickly subside, and we'd only be left with those that garnered enough support--and I daresay that we could reasonably expect these to be the best of the pack. The other ideas would either have to be retooled (made better) to attract attention, or be put aside until their were more people involved.
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#178 | |
Dead Serious
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Really, the game proposals, as used now, are put directly to the Mod (Pio), but they scarcely differ in content from what we would put out there to attract the other players. The only real difference, under the new system, is that the proposal could be put directly to the players. EDIT: In other words, the chief point of the proposal in the current form, as I understand it, is to make sure the game owner covers all the important bases. Putting the proposal out for feedback and/or to attract players would undoubtedly result in the same bases being covered--though I agree it helps keep everything in one place if a consistent form is used each time (like the rule posts in WW).
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#179 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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By player you mean any random person who happened to be passing or people whose opinion have established validity? I'd rather have Pio. Juries are too unpredictacble and can't think of anything worse than having something you have sweated kittens over shang-haied by a self appointed committee of people who won't do anything but criticise. At least a judge may be consistent....
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#180 | |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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![]() What court do you practice in?
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#181 | |
Dead Serious
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...in this case, the analogy being that the unwashed masses may proclaim your game a dud, but if the Mod doesn't squash it, you're still completely entitled to play it out.
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#182 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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Oh we all know Pio has the wisdom of Denning.
I did say may and I don't practise anywhere myself, but in my youth trailed at times after my pa who was a Crown Prosecutor ..he tended to know what to expect from the Magistrates good or bad.. I think there were a few "heartsinks". But that is what 25 years in a rural backwater does for you. More predictable than juries - we can't cherry pick them here and you tend to get numpties who haven't the nous to get excused. Other than that my legal experience consists of working for licensing lawyers for a while and spending most of my time seeing if we could tip our boss into physical or mental collapse first.
Now if there is anyone left who I haven't annoyed or offended, please form an orderly queue and I'll get back to you... ![]()
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#183 |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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I think the hope is that the RPG fora would be able to start self-regulating itself more, like Werewolf does. I think that some sort of discussion forum would be really helpful for this (Durelin - I didn't understand that that's what you were getting at
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#184 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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I was once in charge of a rowing team and I employed many managers to assess and streamline the strategy. On our first race we lost by a mile. On the debrief it was noted that the other team had eight rowers and one cox, where we had one rower and eight coxes. I then set up a steering committee, sub-steering committee, oversight committee and cost analysis committee. After one year and thousands of pounds it was concluded that we did not have enough rowers. However the new managers brought in meant there was no longer any space for rowers and we lost the next race by two miles. The rower was fired for poor performance, the management team was rewarded for the expert deductions and were paid a bonus from the sale of the oars and boat. There seems to more interest in organising than doing ...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#185 | |
Dead Serious
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Perhaps the analogy of the court is a bad one, though, if the image of the jury is one that you're shying away from. The idea of a forum to bounce ideas around on was not (if I may say so, not having suggested it originally) intended to be one of judgment and picking things apart, but one of brainstorming and picking people's brains. It's possible I have a somewhat rosy view of what a brainstorming forum could be, but I'd like to think (on the strength of the sort of discussion that goes on in the Scarburg Planning Thread) that the RPers on the Downs could be constructive and polite in such an environment.
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#186 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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Maybe but I look at the Scarburg Meadhall discussion thread and feel that it is completely unapproachable and too much for an outsider to get a handle on. All this bouncing around ideas and discussing what you are going to do just takes energy away from actually doing anything, Reminds me too much interminable work meetings where you end up playing that form of bingo that naming would get me modded. I used to have a sign on my desk that said that meetings were the management sanctioned alternative to work. I can't think of anything much more likely to ensure I never RPGed again. Of course that might be a good thing.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#187 | |
Dead Serious
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That being said... I can see how there might be a danger of getting a band of people hanging out in the brainstorming room who were always there but never in a game... but I don't think that's a particularly great concern. For one thing, these things tend to police themselves--most people don't comment on the WW planning threads unless they are playing or normally play. Likewise, if I don't intend to play my character "today", I assiduously avoid the Meadhall planning threads (though that may just be me...) What's more, I think we've got a better chance of sucking people in if we have a sort of "halfway" zone between being deeply ensconced in a game and not involved at all. To rely on personal anecdote again, I tend to get sucked into games two ways: 1. by direct invitation (never happened, the last couple years) or 2. by hanging around too long in a "gaming" atmosphere... and on the Downs the only place I've found for that kind of casual contact has been the Meadhall planning threads, which I faithfully read, but rarely engage out of a fear that I'll look bad for planning all the time and never playing. If we had a brainstorming forum, well... I'd be like I am on this thread: engaging completely with a RP environment and finding myself sucked without knowing it back into a game. Also, let's just ignore the fact that I've been following this thread all day with more interest and excitement than any of the WW games I've played in the last few years. Anyone with game plans for the "new world order," assuming these discussions come to fruition, bear in mind that I will be ripe for the plucking. Failing that, I always have that RP proposal I showed Boro last year. ![]()
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#188 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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My, this thread is moving fast! Almost feels like the old days!
Without having time to follow all the legal jokes here, I would like to clarify my ideas in response to Mithadan's concerns. Quote:
First of all, we have difficulty with people posting regularly and/or dropping out of games. I know that pio and Child have worked assiduously to keep games on track, with regular reminders and even joined in games to keep them going. Their effort has been stellar. So we had the rules about keeping to a time line and that didn't ensure that gamers actually followed the rules. They just abandoned the games. And I think that's for more than just real life conflicts. So I've been wondering what motivates people, what inspires them to maintain a personal stake/interest in something? One answer I came up with was ownership. Where people feel they have a personal say in the situation, a chance to really contribute, they tend to be happier and more productive. So I was thinking about what would increase the sense of ownership or responsibility? Maybe the idea that they had to be accountable to themselves and to their fellow gamers and game readers rather than to a Moderator, however benevolent. I was also working with my own boredom in games where all the fun and creativity went into the planning and then the actual writing of posts was just a formality, which became onerous. There was little room for actually plotting the game or developing character once a really far developed "lesson plan" was in place, and no surprises and unexpected challenges which tweaked interest. I kept looking for the "writerly moment", somewhat akin to teacher's "teaching moment". Are gamers actually reading posts and seeing what is expressed and wondering how that influences what is to come? Or are they just seeing a post done and what's next on the list of the plan? And I also think that writing closely to someone else's idea of what the game is/should be can reduce a gamer's input to being simply a hack or ghost writer. That's not fun or creative. Would this kind of personal input or personal responsibility help gamers stay in a game? Or help gamers create games? I don't think this necessarily means that anyone can start a game. I think we can still keep guidelines for clear, correct English, Canonicity (of whatever degree), and the expectation that games/play eventually lead somewhere and have a termination. (I know with my life these days, I cannot commit to anything that is completely open-ended and if a game goes past the anticipated time, likely I would have to withdraw.) And I think we can still ask new gamers to play in X-number of games before they start their own. We can also limit the number of games people join to ensure they actually do write for one. I think we can still have forum Moderators who oversee the forums and provide advice. But I think that once someone has proven themselves, why ask them to submit detailed plans and character bios? We only learn about ourselves and who we are in response to the events and actions which life forces upon us, so why should we expect our characters to be written in stone before they see any action? Of course, that opportunity for freedom hasn't led to games in Gondor, so maybe that isn't all that inspiring. But I think that less emphasis on procedures and on authority (which will still exist, to close/delete/advice/ban etc) might help create an atmosphere where role players are as enthusiastic as the WW gamers. There the gamers can actually participate in creating the outcome of the game, which is not a foregone conclusion. Sorry, must go prepare a late dinner now for family. I hope this answers at least Mithadan's concern over completely unfettered chaos. And, pio, thanks for putting Bonfire Glade on the Rohan list. I looked at the Gondor list and don't think I saw "Lonely Star". Did that finish before Gondor? I thought it was a Gondorian game.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#189 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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The various iterations of Lonely Star are docked in Elvenhome.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#190 |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,779
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Bęthberry
While the Lonely Star was wonderful game to play, it just can't be counted in the canon oriented atmosphere of the present RP system . . . ![]()
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Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. |
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#191 | |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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Re: Bethberry's Post -- YES.
I was going to just post the above but I of course had to add some rambles. Quote:
And yes...when I talk of open RPs that do not have a set out major storyline, plot points, etc., and do not have a *set* end...they still end! People like closure. So once you've made it somewhere you like, you end the RP. And if the players abandon a game/thread before it reaches an end? Of course you just remove the thread. And just to toss this out there...if you're looking for a 100% success rate (meaning every game/thread started is completed in a reasonable amount of time or whatever)...you're never going to be happy. Games/threads are going to fail. They're going to die. People are going to disappear. You just have to have enough interest and momentum in the RP forum overall that it doesn't matter. That *everything* doesn't start to stagnate. No, I don't really know how you get that. But I agree with Bethberry's suggestions. Last edited by Durelin; 02-09-2011 at 08:16 PM. |
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#192 |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim
Posts: 619
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I agree with Durelin & Bęthberry's last posts. I think it may free up some creativity.
If a fraction of the energy put into this thread the last week or so was put toward RP'ng, it would be an active place indeed. |
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#193 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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Good. So we have a consensus that we are going to have rules. That's good because... we're going to have rules.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#194 |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim
Posts: 619
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... in other words... all this was a waste of time ...
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#195 |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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I think the point was defending the idea of giving players a lot more free rein. People like to dry a line and say on one side is order and the other is chaos. I can't speak for Bethberry, who had more to her post than this anyway but, I was reiterating that the open forum idea is NOT the 'Wild West' it's so jokingly referred to as.
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#196 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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Waste of time? Hardly.
Yes there will be rules. Sorry. Snowdog, if you can't commit to at least canonicity, commitment, effort, and a definable tale with an end point (however you do it) I don't understand what you are looking for. Honestly, I looked at the posts above and thought everyone agreed there needed to be SOME rules. You all are trying to convince me that: (1) we don't need as many rules; and (2) that you can not only create your own games without us looking over your shoulder and that your colleagues will demonstrate commitment, effort and a degree of skill with minimal mod involvement. I will give you enough rope. You will either hang yourselves or make us proud. But there will be rules. What those rules will be is open to discussion. I have my own ideas, but I'm willing to be convinced.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#197 |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim
Posts: 619
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I’m not trying to convince you, or anyone else, of anything. Not sure where you got what you say I want either. I don’t “want” anything. I stated my opinion on how a single RP I was involved in transpired. I failed to ever find much creative RP freedom here, but a series of procedural rules, overbearing “game” moderation, etc. Change whatever you want here, or don’t change anything at all. It won’t affect me one way or another. All this wasn’t a waste of time. It helped me realize that I should know better than to get involved in RP here as I’m not a “gamer”. I have places I can write collaborative RP at, and this isn’t, or doubtfully will be, it. Have a nice day.
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#198 | |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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Quote:
As for everyone else, let's get back to working in a constructive fashion. We have a forum to rebuild. I would like to have my last set of questions answered. Do we set a limit on numbers of games running, at least until we understand how many gamers we have or do we trust the members to hash things out and if so how will this happen? One thing I would like to see is a requirement that a member participate in at least a game or two here before he or she can open a game on their own. And do we want Mod approval before starting a game or not? If a proposal is being discussed openly in a forum, realistically, how much extra work is it for someone to send PIO or whoever a PM and say "Take a look at this..." Almost all the people posting on this thread are long time and committed Downers. I think change is needed and and am very willing to take some chances and experiment. If something doesn't work, we can change things again. But we need a framework. I am trying really hard to not impose a framework from "above". So I really want help from you all.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#199 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If we decide to do a public discussion of game thread opportunities, the main thing to do is to make sure that we're all supportive and welcoming of new ideas and new players. The mod would have to be willing to step in and get her hands dirty if we aren't. I don't see a problem with the discussion thread per se, but I do understand the arguments of Mith that a discussion thread could be more intimidating and have a greater risk of abuse and bullying. That's another cultural thing, though. Quote:
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#200 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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I don't want to be perpetually negative - really I don't, but if you scrap character bios completely you make it very hard for new people to get started since not only do they have to pick up what is going on if anything (it took me hours upon hours to get a definitive "Story so far" for the cooks disappearance in the Golden Perch when I was trying to pick up that thread. If you don't give people an easy handle on at least what people look like you make if very hard for both new people to get started and indeed existing people to welcome them.
A full life history might be unnecessary, but I do think at least a bit of a description of what a character looks like would make it easier. In an ideal world good sense and good manners would be enough but they can be commodities in short supply and sometimes rule have been imposed for good reasons and do infact make life simpler rather than the reverse, ie requiring all ciitzens to drive on the left (or the right if you really must ![]()
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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