Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion

[mark12_30]

Imladris, Aylwen & lmp: great posts!

Sorry I have yet to post a timeline. Busier day than I had planned.

Roughly:
The game begins in the late Autumn/ Early winter. Mellon dreams of Nimrodel, and Amroth's dreams and purpose take over, and he heads Northwest, but veers west and ends up at Edoras about two weeks after he left Minas Tirith. At Edoras he grows feverish and convalesces several days.

Four days after Mellondu disappears, Mellonin begins work at the Seventh Star. (She is joined by Raefindan during her first couple of days.) She is there a week and a half, and then she also takes fever and is sick, dreaming deliriously, for the same three days.

Mellonin and Mellondu recover at the same time, and Mellon-Amroth heads north from Edoras. Ravion departs from Rohan for Minas Tirith. Mellon-Amroth walks a day and sleeps one night before Ædegard, Liornung and Bellyn catch up to him.

A week later Ravion arrives in Minas Tirith, speaks with Mellonin, and they leave that night. (No rest for Ravion!)

Now, should we use a Middle-Earth months, or January, Feburary, etc? Personally, since Tolkien translated LOTR into English months, I have no problem using them, and I think it would be easier on all of us to do so. If anyone is passionate about using the elvish months, let me know & I'll edit the timeline to indicate that.

So let's say Mellondu disappeared in late November; how about Nov 21.

Here's a start on the timeline:

Nov 21: Mellondu disappears from Minas Tirith.
Nov 24: Mellonin hired on at the Seventh Star.
Dec 5: Mellonin and Mellondu both sick of a fever, & dreaming.
Dec 8: they recover. Mellon-Amroth walks northward from Edoras.
Dec 9: Ædegard, Bellyn, Liornung catch up with Mellon-Amroth. Ravion departs for Minas Tirith.

Right now, writers' time, Ædegard's Rohan group is on Dec 10 or 11: current time frame for Ædegard, Mellon-Amroth, Liornung, Bellyn. This team can post and travel with abandon, since Ravion is already pushing Dec 17.


Dec 15: Ravion arrives in Minas Tirith.
Dec 16: Ravion awakens with hangover, & speaks with Mellonin. They depart that evening. Mellon-Amroth arrives where the Nimrodel meets the edge of Lorien and is met there by Erebemlin.


Dec 17th: Ravion's group is heading northward for Rohan, a bit westward from the Anduin.

Once Ædegard's group catches up to Ravion's group on Game-Time Dec 17, they will have arrived at Lorien, met Erebemlin, and be heading southward along the Anduin. I'm imagining that Ravion will catch Mellon-Amroth's trail, or rumor of their passing, in the East Emnet at or above the Sarn Gebir. (See map.)

At this point, Ravion's troop needs horses or boats or something. If they travel on foot, the horses of Rohan will leave them far behind!
...More to follow later.

[littlemanpoet]

In some post way back there, featuring Ædegard leaving Edoras, I think, I have spring on its way and the snow disappearing. If I can find it, I'll go back and edit it.

I thought both parties were traveling northwards. ???

[mark12_30]

littlemanpoet wrote:
I thought both parties were traveling northwards. ???

In writers-time, Yes; today "as the gamers write", both parties are now going northward--because Ædegard's party is almost a game-week behind. How far out from Edoras is Ædegard, as of this writing? Three days? I'm calling it Dec 10 or 11, but I should go back thru and verify.

In four or five more days Ædegard-game-time, they will reach Lorien and meet up with Erebemlin who will steer them along the Anduin-- southwards. At *that* time (Dec 16 or 17) Ravion's troop is just starting out.

I'll edit below to clarify.

In the meantime, what to do? I suggest the Rohan writing team proceed with lengthened stride (but let's not be too hasty, hoom hom-- *enjoy* the character development while eating up the miles and the days.) Meanwhile, Ravion's writing team can proceed at a liesurely pace (writing-wise. The characters are still pressing to make up for lost time.)

Sound reasonable?

[alaklondewen]

Helen, would you mind attaching this to the bottom of post #68?

~*~*~
The golden forest was pleasantly quiet as Erebemlin moved soundlessly through the trees. He was following a set of deer tracks that were heading toward the river. If he found the animal delayed by the water’s edge, there would be enough fresh meat for the next few weeks. With winter on the way, the ellon knew the importance of having meat before he and the others found themselves without for the remainder of the season.

As he neared the river, its quiet murmur met his ears. He stopped momentarily, leaning against a mighty mellorn and loosely fitted an arrow to his bow. Steadying his hand, he inhaled deeply and swiftly stepped over bringing the weapon to his eye and pulling the arrow back in one sweeping moment. The buck stood only a few yards from his position, and he readied himself to fire.

The arrow, however, never flew. Just as Erebemlin began to loosen his grip, a cry filled the forest. Speak to me. O Nimrodel, Nimrodel, sing to me again. Then, as quickly as it came, the call was gone. The hunter lowered his weapon and opened his heart searching for its source, but the thought had departed.

Nimrodel. Erebemlin was perplexed by this mysterious cry. The thoughts were so desperate, but who would be searching for the maiden who had long been lost to the world. He could think of only one, but his King had departed long ago for the lands West of the sea.

[mark12_30]

Oooh! Delighted, Alak. Wonderful post!

Nuru, Imladris, Aylwen, & Orual-- I missed you all last evening! lmp, alak and I spent quite some time on yahoo chat. If you have (or obtain) a yahoo ID (which is free, and handy) you can use a java popup chat window (available at the bottom of this page), log onto yahoo, and chat. We can set up a narrow-focus "room" for just this team. If any of you are interested in trying that, PM me! It helps move the game along, instead of waiting for PMs.

[mark12_30]

I just edited my latest post because it was too much of a dead-end for the day. Hopefully it'll be easier to play against! Please reread.

I was reading the "Resources for RPGs" thread in THe Shire and ran across a link Imladris supplied. It's here . Very helpful. That (and lmp's advice about flabby adverbs, and point of view, and characterization-- hey, lmp, you da man-- ) ranks high up there on the list of "Helpful Advice." CHeck it out.

[mark12_30]

Okay! It's a bit on the baffling side but here it is.
I've added the timeline
right after the
map
on the tapestry info page : Tapestry Docs

Although suggestions are welcome the point is simply, Rohan group has several days to catch up, and Minas Tirith group can take their time for a while. And in the future hopefully we can avoid the confusion. As the game owner-- I'm sorry I didn't catch this earlier! Hopefully we can bring everything to a common date shortly; that will make the logistics less confusing.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Thankies for all the reference pages, Helen!

And, you're a sly one, asking Bellyn to sing...

I'll get a post and song up tonight, since it's my night off!! (YAY!)

-Aylwen

[Nurumaiel]

littlemanpoet, I've worked out a couple posts. It would do me a great honor if you placed them below two posts of your own which I have specified. They are as follows:

------------------------------------
under your post #82......
------------------------------------

"The tale of it?" Liornung blushed slightly but it was clear he was more than eager to tell. "What you have said is true... the Bards of Rohan have rarely put rhyme in their verse and their great songs have been sung without. Yet I learned the art of song not from one of Rohan but from a wandering minstrel of Gondor who always sang in rhyme. Indeed, this fiddle is his that he left me, and 'twas he who first named me Liornung. The name my mother and father gave to me is Sarig, but I do forbid anyone to call me thus." And, a twinkle in his eye, he looked at each member of the company in turn.

"Yes, indeed, it is a name to avoid! But as I was saying before, it was that wandering minstrel who brought me to sing in rhyme. He sang for me a lovely song. He was not as I am. You see, he had a lover in Gondor waiting for him, and I have never fallen in love and don't fully intend to. He was fair eight and thirty years when he first passed through my land and stayed at my father's home, when I was but a lad. He spoke to me a little of her, calling her fairest and dearest, her heart the sweetest and kindest, and though I daresay now all say so much of their lover's, as Amroth would surely say of his, I have rarely seen a man love as that minstrel loved his Gondor maid. He would often describe her to me in a verse, saying:

"Dear are her charms to me,
dearer her laughter free,
dearest her constancy.

"She was of Rohan though he had brought her to Gondor to wait for him at his mother's home. He would have married her long before that time but he could not bring himself to lay aside his roaming just yet. He did tell me once, however, that two years forward he would abandon all roads, build a little home, and take her for his wife. I have not heard of him since, but I pray the two of them are happily wed." He paused a moment before continuing, and his voice was quieter when he spoke again. "Once I heard him singing a song he had written to her, though he did not know I was closeby. It was a charming little song, very simple, but full of such love and devotion. I heard it only once yet it has ever been in my mind. It ran thus:

"Do you see yon bonnie minstrels as they go along
a-trippin' and a-skippin' to the lilt of their song?
And, lassie, they sing a song for thee
so jump up, bonnie girl, and come away with me.

A minstrel's fare is poor if his songs do not please
but if hunger faced us I should love you 'fore life ceased
and with my dying breath I would take you on my knee
and I would tell you truly how much I loved thee.

But if my songs should pleased and bring us some food
still I'd love you as ever a man could
and I'd play you a tune 'neath some shady tree.
So jump up, bonnie girl, and come away with me.

And if there came children a home they should not lack.
I'd set aside my songs and take my fiddle from my back
and I should love them however many there may be.
So jump up, bonnie girl, and come away with me.

And when, my darling girl, we are both frail and old
and your hair turned to white and lost its lovely gold,
though youth had with time decayed still I would love thee.
So jump up, bonnie girl, and come along with me.

------------------------------------
under your post #87
------------------------------------

Liornung's eyes travelled over the campsite and he nodded in satisfaction. "'Tis a lovely place to camp, and I am amazed at the feel of the very air, which speaks of Éomer and his company even better than the song you have sung, good Ædegard. I do not mean, of course," he added, his voice hasty and confused, "that the song was not worthy of the place."

"I do think you are correct," Ædegard reassured him. "Not all things can be put into song. The song spoke of this place, yet this place is this place."

"That is," Liornung said, "quite right." He picked up his fiddle with a little smile upon his face. "I'm going to sing a happy little song for you. I have sung too much, I fear, of lost loves and faraway loves and longing loves, things that bring woe and sorrow. What about loves that are there and happily content?" And so he picked up a merry tune and began to sing.

Come all you lads and lassies and listen for awhile.
I'll sing to you a verse or two and try to make you smile.
But if instead you weep with grief, do not be ashamed
for others who have heard this song wept, more than can be named.

Fal-la-do-la-do, fal-al-the-day.

There was lad who rode out one fair and pleasant day.
From Rohan and to Gondor he carelessly did stray.
He had no mind for love or any lassies fair
till he met a maid, soft was her smile, dark was her hair.

Fal-la-do-la-do, fal-al-the-day.

"Oh lassie fair of Gondor, do come away with me,
mount your horse and take my hand and come to my country.
I'll give you all you wish for and sweet home
and rover though I am for you I'll cease to roam.

Fal-la-do-la-do, fal-al-the-day.

"Oh lad with the golden hair, truly I love you
but if I went away what would my poor sick father do?"
"Oh take him lassie, take him if you'll come with me.
I'll give you all you ask for, no want will come to ye.

Fal-la-do-la-do, fal-al-the-day.

The lad left and the lassie followed with her father ill.
They built a house and she truly loved him with a will.
I've told you a happy tale of a young rover
and how he won the heart of the fair maid of Gondor.

Fal-la-do-la-do, fal-al-the-day.
Fal-la-do-la-dee-la-fal-do-lay.

As he ended his song he threw back his head and laughed. "Before any of you speak of it, I do know that my songs are often of wandering rovers and their fair maids, but in all truth so seldom am I in one place for a long time that the only romances I know of are those of the road. Yet I do know of a poor peasant lad who married a poor peasant lass he had loved all his life. I will put the tale into verse a sing it for you on the morrow."

------------------------------------

Thank ye kindly!

[littlemanpoet]

Glad to oblige, Nurumaiel! Great songs!

I kind of felt like we might have already passed the Entwash and the Mounds, but it's an important spot for Ædegard, being a born and bred Rohirrim, having drunk and gobbled the stories and songs of the War of the Ring that he was almost to young to remember. Anyway, I'm really enjoying this poem and song fest! Great stuff! Um, Helen's turn, isn't it?

[mark12_30]

All right, lmp, I'll think of something... ruminate, ruminate.... (uh-oh, that's not phrench, is it? Must celticize.)

Aylwen, clever choice of songs-- and classy adaptation! It's a rare song, you sure know where to look to find good ones!

Nuru-- tunes, babe, we need TUNES! How about wav files? Does your computer have a mic? (And I *still* owe your wee hobbit some mp3s... the days are too short.)

[Nurumaiel]

Aylwen, quite a lovely song! Did you write it or adapt it? If the latter, where can I find the original words? It's taken my fancy, I must admit, and I've never heard it before.

Helen, as for tunes I have quite a few tunes for Liornung's song, yet the problem is that they're songs that he hasn't yet sung in either Friends of Nimrodel or at the White Horse. I'm putting together a book of his tunes with lyrics and I'm working on jpg files that will have the tunes though it is very basic and you won't be able to find 4/4 measures or 3/4 measures specified or the like. I'll probably put up a website if you really are interested that will have those lyrics and the tuen jpg images. I do have a tune worked out for the Fair Maid of Gondor song he just recently performed for the company, but I can only give it to you the way I scribbled it down, which are a series of C's and D's and E's and so on and so forth up to B's. Here it is now, and I'll let you know that capitals represents a note in the higher octave. I'll kill myself today over making the jpg images, however.

Naturally the song is sung/played quickly and merrily. The tune is the same throughout the whole song, save the final chorus but I don't have my notebook with me and it's slipped my mind.

c a g f d c c c d c d e f
for
Come all you lads and lassies and listen for awhile.

c a g f d c c c c d c d e f
for
I'll sing to you a verse or two and try to make you smile.

c C C C a C C C a g f a D C
for
But if instead you weep with grief, do not be ashamed

C a a a g f c c c - d c d e f
for
for others who have heard this song wept, more than can be named.

c c c c C - a a g f
for
Fal-la-do-la-do, fal-al-the-day.

I really will work on those jpg images today so it can be seen which notes go with which words!

As for wav files, this computer I'm currently working on doesn't have a mic but I do believe another one does and I could transfer the files to different computers. I wouldn't mind playing the tin whistle and putting it on the wav file and I suppose I could sing but it's rather likely a fit of shyness will take me and I'll hesitate. I suppose I could attempt to play the tin whistle and then sing and put the two together...... I'll PM you about it, though, and let you know what I can manage!

[littlemanpoet]

I sang it! I did, I did. Helen can promise you that I know how. I almost did the same thing to her on YIM that you put on this thread. What a lively tune!

[mark12_30]

littlemanpoet is ahead of meee!


I tried but wasn't sure of a few things-- Is the little c the root of the scale and the big C the octave above it and the other notes in between? Does the initial 'a' go down from the c or up? And is it in the key of c? or a minor? I'll be glad of the whistle version. Like I said, lmp is ahead of me this time!

At lmp's prompting the Rohan group has moved forward another day (to morning of Dec 14.) As always posts can be inserted if need be. Ædegard doesn't dare ask Amroth to open the morning's game-- so who's next, Ædegard or Liornung? Or Bellyn?

Speaking of Bellyn, she shyly mentioned the Lay of Nimrodel after her opening song, and I had a mental image of the Valar (Mandos and Lorien) clapping their hands over Amroth's ears as she said it. I guess we'll say that Amroth was temporarily distracted by Valarish interference.

However, Ædegard, Bellyn, and Liornung please feel free to discuss it. The topic will come up, repeatedly I'm sure; but the Valar are not allowing Amroth to "remember" the intervening 1000 years, and he will always (always) draw a blank about them. He thinks the storm was a few months ago, and he doesn't remember his swim to shore very well (for instance that it was ill-fated.) He doesn't quite relate that to the dreams.

Alaklondewen, this will be a challenge for Erebemlin to deal with. Osanwe will convince Amroth that Erebemlin isn't pulling a fast one on him; but Amroth won't grasp the significance of the 1000-year gap. He'll just keep saying that he has to find her. His stubborness and Valar-driven mental block will seem like stupidity at times, or perhaps worse.

[Imladris]

I posted for Aeron and Gwyllion, and I do hope my post wasn't too terribly confusing...

I took the liberty of hastening it to the morning, but after I posted the post I realized that I probably shouldn't have done that because of this confusing time travel thing. If I have done wrong, let me know.

However, I do hope that you will forgive the numerous "Bad Forms" references that I borrowed from Peter Pan, and the highly used (probably over used) stunt of using a burning blade from PotC....but I couldn't resist, Mate.

I wondered if I should use the Bad Form because it is Peter Pan...but then I didn't think it sounded too modern for LotR. But I am just an amateur so please correct me if I was mistaken and I will gladly edit to something else.

Cheers,
Istawen

[mark12_30]

Imladris, we can debate the use of the phrase "Bad Form" over the next few posts... after I eventually finish chuckling. What a great post!

Can't wait to read Ravion's response.

[Nurumaiel]

Helen,
I can't answer your questions at the moment but I'll let you know that I've recorded Fair Maid of Gondor on tin whistle and it's just a matter of moving it to this computer and putting it on a webpage. I'll let you know when it's up. There's also one other tune I have done that sounds lovely with the tin whistle and guitar merged. I don't know about my voice, however. I'm having a difficult time getting the hang of how to sing it well and in a way that it will match the tin whistle perfectly when put together. I'll work at it, though!

I've posted for Liornung and he's sung a new song..... he's writing songs too fast! I can't come up with the tunes, let alone record them. I really need to get a mic on my computer so I can lock myself up all day and work at it.

Liornung has started the day's game! Who wants to go next?

[mark12_30]

Nuru-- Lovely, lovely, LOVELY!!

Tapestry Team--

Recently the question came up "is it okay if I introduce anther character". The answer is, for all of us, a resounding Yes.

This is Gondor-- so create, develop, carry, and kill off major and minor characters as you see fit! If the rest of us are horrified by something canon-hostile we will say something (won't we.) But this is your story as well as "mine"; own it. Own your characters-- as many as you want to carry, for as long as you need them. If you are interested in "The Other Thread" (Ædegard's or Ravion's, whichever you're absent from) and wish you were involved, then invent a plausible character and go investigate there.

(Before you kill off somebody else's character, perhaps it's best to ask.)

Plot twists are what make Gondor so much fun. Don't be shy.

[Nurumaiel]

I just barely have time to post and say that Liornung's Book of Tunes is up though it is not completed, with two wav files actually on there and two more that have been recorded coming soon, as well as lyrics to the majoirty of his songs. Fair Maid of Gondor wav file is there, too! The wav files take awhile to download, naturally (they're wav files), and the lyrics don't have their tunes with them yet, though I am going to work on it. Enjoy!

Helen, I don't have another character to add to the game but I do believe I'm going to think one up just so I can use that option. No bios necessary?

[mark12_30]

another character ... No bios necessary?

NOPE! You've each earned my trust. Besides-- this is Gondor. If you want a bio, feel free; if not, go ahead without one!

Nuru, that songbook looks Awesome. Don't forget your copyright statements! lmp's the expert on that. This computer is too slow & old for wav files (yeah, it's a dinosaur) but I'll check them out tomorrow! Yippee!

[mark12_30]

Immy---- Lllllove it!!! You go, girl!

[mark12_30]

Nuru, those wav files are awesome. The "Fair Maid of Gondor" is hard to sit still to, and "My Love Has Roved Away" is ... well, heartbreaking.

At this point, I'll pull a Liornung, and pat myself on the back saying "I pushed her into it!"

[Nurumaiel]

Helen, Liornung thanks you kindly for the compliment. I've put up the tune for O'er a Little River, the first song he sang for the Rohan company. Unfortunately the server I use will only let me store up to 20 MBs of files on it, which would probably be about nine or ten wav files of just tin whistle, but I wanted to have the guitar and maybe even the vocals. Perhaps if you wanted to have the tunes for all time you could record them on a cassette tape, or burn the wavs onto a CD, or download them or something? With guitar and vocals I'd probably be able to put up only one or two wav files at a time! That is, if Maercwen sings the whole song through. I have one tune with guitar and tin whistle and it's (*cringes*) 9 MB.

I'm slowly forming an idea for another character to introduce to the game. The grand entrance will probably be shortly after the Gondor and Rohan teams unite (even greater ). Which day (game-time) will they bump into each other?

[mark12_30]

Nuru, m'girl, that I do not know!

I know that they will be together by the time that Amroth finds Nimrodel. And probably before. So that means, somewhere between Tol Brandir or the Emyn Muil where Ravion picks up Amroth's trail-- and Edhellond/ Dol Amroth/ Bay of Belfalas. And it could be ANYWHERE along the journey. Honestly-- I don't know when Ravion will catch Amroth!

Maybe one of you knows, but I do not.

Perhaps we will just have to play the game to find out.

[Nurumaiel]

Helen, then let's just play it by ear, shall we? I'm toying with the idea of introducing a gypsy to the company.... Yet I do know if I'm following our rules about canon? I don't believe Tolkien ever said anything about gypsies in his works but that doesn't prove they didn't exist, or so I hope and believe. I compare it with the example such as if I wrote a song but never mentioned it to anyone, just because I hadn't said anything about the song wouldn't mean it didn't actually exist. In fact it most certainly wouldn't, because it would exist. That is merely my view, however, and if anyone feels I'm going against canon please take me to pieces. However if Tolkien did mention gypsies somewhere in his works I would love to know where.

Rohan team, I've taken the liberty of bringing Dec. 14 to a close. If any of you have a post you'd like to make before that evening, merely PM me with your post or put it here and I'll paste it above mine.

[mark12_30]

Nuru,

What an interesting idea. I'm not aware that Tolkien ever mentioned "gypsies" as such; perhaps because (if I recall correctly) gypsies were originally a particular strain of nationality...? I seem to connect them vaguely with the Hungarians somehow, not sure if that is correct.

However, Tolkien spoke plenty about wanderers, loners, and nomadic sorts of people. Roads were dangerous, and not just because of the trolls.

The Rohirrim generally strike me as a clannish people. But you could develop a case for the Rohirrim way out on the fringes of Rohan (beyond Fangorn!) being more separated from Rohirric society, and absorbing a little more culture from everyone who comes their way-- elves, dwarves, Gondorians, and... whoever. They'd have a variety of songs, woundn't they?

I'll go check my indexes (indices, only it sounds funny) and see what I can find.

Letters: No mention of Gypsies; Wanderers: one mention (unexplained) of Wainriders. I googled it; Here's what this page says about Wainriders:

Wainriders
The Wainriders were a confederation of Easterling tribes who were united by their hate of Gondor, fueled by the dark lord Sauron. Following the Great Plague which weakened Gondor, they started their attacks in 1856 (T.A.), defeating the Gondorian army and killing king Narmacil II. They rode in great wagons and chariots (which gave them their name), and raided the lands of Rhovanion, destroying or enslaving its people. Gondor gradually lost all of its possessions east of Anduin to them. The thirtieth king of Gondor, Calimehtar son of Narmacil, defeated the Wainriders at the plain of Dagorlad, buying some rest for his land. However the Wainriders struck back in 1944, allying themselves with the Haradrim of Near Harad and the Variags of Khand. They managed to kill king Ondoher and all his heirs, but instead of riding on to Minas Anor and taking the city, they paused to celebrate. Meanwhile, general Eärnil of Gondor's southern army had defeaten the Haradrim, and rode north to defend his king. He came too late to rescue Ondoher, but managed to totally defeat the Wainriders. Eärnil was crowned king. After this defeat the might of the Wainriders was broken, and they retreated east. They still held Rhovanion, but never troubled Gondor again. It later turned out that their attacks were staged by Sauron, and allowed him to reclaim Mordor while Gondor's watch was diverted.

Interesting; sounds quite gypsy-ish. I wonder if a few of their ancestors still lingered in Mirkwood around Dol Guldor, and perhaps mingled with the folk across the Anduin. Now, that really might make them outcasts!
From the same page:

Balchoth
The Balchoth were a fierce race of Easterlings, who attacked Gondor while under orders of Dol Guldur. In 2150 they overran the plains of Calenardhon and almost destroyed the army of the Ruling Steward Cirion, but were defeaten by the Éothéod under Eorl the Young. Like the Wainriders they rode in chariots and wagons, and they may have been descendants of this people.

Variags
The Variags were the people of Khand, and they first appeared in the West in 1944 of the Third Age, fighting alongside the Wainriders. They later appeared during the battle of the Pelennor Fields. Little was known about them, but they appeared to be a race of horse-men much like the Rohirrim, although they were fiercely loyal to Mordor.

Either way, I *love* the idea of songs floating past on the breeze. Very, very nice.

You know... my husband's computer has a microphone on it, too... (glances at her pennywhistle lying next to the keyboard.) Disk storage, we need disk storage.

[littlemanpoet]

I suggest that these wanderers not be exiled Rohirrim. It would be more likely for them to be a group of Easterlings from somewhere between the Rhun and the Ered Lithui (or farther east). With that origin, you could feed in a Hungarian style culture for them (you were right, Helen ), and make them as gypsy as you like. They would have had to pass between Rhovanion and the Brown Lands, crossed the Anduin by whatever ingenuity they could fashion, such as building temporary rafts from stray logs to ferry their carriages (or whatever you want to call them), then move on westward between Lorien and the Limlight. They surely see the mountains rising before them, and would probably be wondering whether to settle and become farmers, or continue to move on and see who they could trade with, or whatever. What did gypsies do to survive, anyway? Sell? Hunt? I don't know.....

[mark12_30]

Wow, that was quite an intersection of ideas! lmp, didja see the edits on the wainriders and other easterlings?... shoo!

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I love your idea, Nuru!

I know I'm a little late here with this idea...but I thought I'd include some info...

I'm not aware that Tolkien ever mentioned "gypsies" as such; perhaps because (if I recall correctly) gypsies were originally a particular strain of nationality...? I seem to connect them vaguely with the Hungarians somehow, not sure if that is correct.

This site has a lot of information on Roma.

"The Roma are an ethnic minority whose origins began on the Indian subcontinent over one thousand years ago. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey, Nubia or Egypt, or any number of non-European places. They were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from."

I think this quote is why I'm not entirely sure if they'd be called "Gypsies" in Middle-Earth if they did exist, but it depends on how Helen wants it.

"Most Roma have always referred to themselves by their tribal names, or as Rom or Roma, meaning "Man" or "People." The trend is to eliminate the use of derogatory, pejorative and offensive names, such as Gypsies, and to be given proper respect by the use of the self-appelation of Roma, or Rroma. Gypsies, although offensive to most Roma, is still a proper name."

Anyway, the idea sounds like a great deal of fun, Nuru, and I think if you just use lmp's idea of them being Easterlings it would work out fine. Helen, do you think the wanderer's should have a name other than 'Gypsies' or is it okay to use? I just wanted to make sure.

Also, in my last post it is still the night of the 14th, but after Amroth leaves for I assumed that he left at night. If this isn't right, just let me know and I'll edit a bit.

[Nurumaiel]

Thanks for all the suggestions for the gypsies! I was aware that the name actually referred to a particular race, but it's become a habit around this house to use it as a reference to 'the travelling people,' whatever race they happen to be. I preferred Liornung to say 'gypsy' oppose to 'tinker' or 'rolling stone' or any other such name. I love the idea of the Easterlings...

However my idea with this group was using the term 'gypsies' as a group of wandering people rather than the Roma, or in this case Easterlings (I'm not Roma, but I'm sometimes referred to as the 'Whistling Gypsy,' merely implyng that I'm a whistling, singing person who spends much time wandering through the woods and the like). It would be a very old group of wandering people... if they were to mention their history when the Rohan company encounters them perhaps it could have started with a few Easterlings travelling many, many years ago, years before the War of the Ring, and it had grown over time as lone wanderers from Rohan and Gondor joined them. How would this work?

I could work it either way, that is, use gypsy as a term referring to the Roma or in the game the Easterlings, or as merely a group of wandering people. Let me know what you think.

[mark12_30]

Nuru--

I like the people and what you are doing with them and how Liornung relates to them. The rohirric family I think littlemanpoet wil have something to say about-- he seems to have strong feelings about it and I'm not sure why but I respect his opinions highly, so if he feels strongly about it, we'll weigh that quite heavily.

Other than that-- I just think the word "gypsies" is jarring. But I have an idea: WHy not come up with an old-English word tht means "wanderers" or "carriage-riders" or something, and use that? Maybe lmp could help, or Bethberry, or somebody.

Sound doable?

[Nurumaiel]

Helen,
I would like to know what littlemanpoet says about it, but I personally don't see what the problem would be with a Rohirric family that wandered about. After all, Liornung is of Rohan and he wanders about. Just a warning, lmp..... if you don't like it I'd like a valid reason why they shouldn't be in there. I would have to come up with a new character to introduce to the game other than the one I was already intending, which would be a bit of a bother yet I could manage. The main problem is that I've already grown a bit attached to this character I plan to introduce and would hate to have it discarded.

The Old English word for 'wander' is scriþan and 'travel' is faran. However I don't know Old English grammar and wouldn't know how to change it to 'wanderers' or 'wandering people.' If anyone more knowledgable would like to help out...? Of course there could always be an adaption of the name as for gypsies.

If you really detest me using the word gypsy I shan't, but I think it is a very enchanting word and like to use it. That, however, is not a very good reason for using it. I just believe that a word of that sort would also appeal to Liornung's imagination. Somehow the Old English words for wander and travel don't hold the same enchantment.

Interesting discussion, by the way.

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for asking about it. My only concern regarding the Rohirrim is that Anglo-Saxon people (circa 400 to 1000) who wandered were pretty much limited to clerics, pilgrims, and beggars; and it was indeed true that some people fit all three categories at once. They tended not to have generational histories, which is what you're intending for your wanderers. I say that only because the Anglo-Saxons are Tolkien's template for the Rohirrim.

That said, it must be noted that the Rohirrim have been in Rohan (formerly Calenardhon) since Third Age 2510, which, if we are in, say, the first decade of the Fourth Age, just over 500 years. That's a pretty long-lived civilization. Still, Rohan has been ravaged by war. I find it striking that by and large, the breadth of Rohan is pretty much unpeopled. That's a lot of wandering room. Over that span of time, I can imagine a clan having, for one reason or another, picked up roots, and decided to become Wayfarers.

But whatever got them uprooted would have to be quite powerful, to change their way of life. So give them a powerful reason to have uprooted themselves from their cultural base, as compared to all the other Rohirrim who have remained rooted. It seems like a tall order to me, but doable. If you'd like some help with it, I'd be happy to. You'll notice that I bolded Wayfarers. That would be the Anglo-Saxon name that is most fitting. Use if it you like.

Hope that helps to both clarify my (mild) opposition to the idea in the first place, as well as ways to account for it.

[Nurumaiel]

littlemanpoet,
This is truly lovely. I think this is the first RPG where I've had to work to get something right and not simply be able to do it or be told I couldn't......

Is this group of travellers, or wayfarers (which is almost as striking a word as gypsies), there are a few other Rohirric people besides those which were mentioned, though the majority are made up of the Easterlings. Perhaps these people could have, in either the recent War or some older war, lost their homes and taken up wandering, being encountered with poverty and no way to earn back what they had lost and seeing it as the only way of life? Perhaps there were Rohirric families that were not pure Rohirric and a bit more adventurous than the others (rather like the Tooks and the Brandybucks?) and when the wandering Easterlings passed by they took up a notion to follow them? Do help me think of reasons, for I need a wide variety. Though the Rohirric in this band of travellers are not many there are still a few of different families and situations and it would be nice to know they have different, valid reasons for becoming wayfarers even if it's never mentioned in the game because they're never mentioned. If you like, littlemanpoet, you could even have your character talk about with various Rohirric people and give 'histories of the leaving home' for them actually inside the game.

As for the Rohirric family I've already mentioned, they had no strong reason for leaving their home. The father was a wanderer in his younger days (perhaps a beggar or even a minstrel of a sort as Liornung) and he took a fancy into his head to go on the road again despite family. This lack of strong reason is why his wife doesn't like it and his daughter doesn't like it (and the other children? I don't know if there are other children yet), and also why he probably will be going home sometime soon. Of course I don't know that he'll go home, but everything is against him. It's a bit awful that I don't know my own characters, isn't it?

Let's have fun working this out, for it's a discussion I've never seen anywhere before and I'm enjoying it.

Helen,
Last night was an awful one for me... I'm developing a cold and a sore throat kept me awake most of the night (singing in the choir didn't help, either, though the guitar was awfully fun).... so waking up in misery I don't know if I can handle another character at the moment. Perhaps just a passing whim.... as the character was going to be from the gypsy group (I can say gypsy on the discussion thread, can't I?) I'm just thinking of having those two groups (the gypsies and the Rohan company) be travelling along with each other for a few days before the gypsies veer off. Maybe Dec. 17 or 18. So the character would be rather temporary, and this would give littlemanpoet and Aylwen to play around with characters they could only post about once, if they cared to. Is that all right with you?

[mark12_30]

THis morning I thought of another possibility which (to me) has a certain appeal. Since we are in year 12 or 14 or so of Elessar's reign, he has pardoned the Easterlings and made treaties with them. It is probable that Rohan is now at peace with the Wainriders of Southern Mirkwood. They could be there by treaty. So they could also be called "Wainriders".

What think ye?

NURU: we cross-posted, whups. "Wayfarers" is indeed a romantic name. In terms of how long you want to carry the characters-- that's up to you, you invented them! Well, it's partly also up to the plot, if you know what I mean, but If you want the gy-- er-- Wayfarers to be temporary they're your characters. On the other hand, if another writer falls in love (in a writerly manner o' speakin') with one of your gy-- er-- Wayfarers then they can nicely ask you for permission to carry that character themselves and it will be between you and said writer.

Once in a while minor characters tag along, carried by the team as a whole, for large parts of the story, and that's okay too.

Working this stuff out is half the fun, eh?

[Nurumaiel]

Helen,
I think we cross-posted.

I vote for hearing what littlemanpoet says about your suggestion, for I really don't care as long as I get my gypsies.

----EDIT----

On the other hand, if another writer falls in love (in a writerly manner o' speakin') with one of your gy-- er-- Wayfarers then they can nicely ask you for permission to carry that character themselves and it will be between you and said writer.

Or, on the other hand, I could give full permission now to all the Rohan company to come up with gypsy/Wayfarer characters in the group and post about them once, twice, or have them stick around for the whole game! We have near our company now a rather large group of people where you can do all the character-creating you want. Just have fun with it!

[mark12_30]

...and I hope you feel better very soon. Get some sleep...?

[littlemanpoet]

The War of the Ring is pretty powerful a reason to pull up roots and change from farming to wayfaring. So if you're NOT going for the generational thing, that works fine.

My question is, what do the Wainriders, Easterlings, Wayfarers, and all, do to keep body and soul together? The options I can think of are herding, performing (a very tough life), or bartering. Anything else? Man, I don't know. Herding would be the securest, considering that you take your food with you on the hoof, but it also means that you need wide lands for pasturage that nobody else claims, or you run into squabbles with landowners, which I'm sure wayfarers do all the time.

Actually, this was the reason there was constant movement from Asia into Europe for so many centuries, because there was land to be had, and not so many people in the way. Such seems to be the case basically everywhere in known Middle Earth (from Rhun to Ered Luin).

As to specifics for Gondorians and Rohirrim, any mixture of ethnicities only occurs during times of extremity. Yes, a War of the Ring would be one such. Orc raids that destroy a homestead would be one way. One's lands turned into a battle field would be another (but very limited) way. One's bread winner being killed in the war might cause a woman to pick up roots and children and tag along with a passing caravan, a most desperate decision but not at all unlikely, given the context. Orc raids seem to be the raison détre, or however that phrench phrase is spelled - that most rpg'ers seem to fall back on. I'd like to see us be more creative than that. Sure, that could be the reason for one family, but let's try and think up others.

Having helped not at all and complicated matters further, I'll stop now.

[mark12_30]

Okay, I just realized something potentially *very* comfusing is going on.

On the one hand, I'm insisting that Nuru use a non-anachronistic, linguistically consistent name for her "gypsies"-- I think I'll call them "our wayfarers" because Amroth is about to start a conversation with a stray one-- but one post later, Raefindan's dog is being called "George". What's going on?

It all goes back to Raefindan's original character development.

Raefindan is a time-traveller-- who doesn't *know* he's a time traveller. littlemanpoet is using the "Lost Road" method of time travel (via dreams) to displace a 20th century man (Roy) to Middle-Earth. The variation in what lmp is doing, is that this 20th century man is remembering bits of 20th century language, and it is slipping out of him. This is the readers' only real clue that Raefindan doesn't belong in the Fourth Age.

lmp is using some *very* subtle signals to get this across. For one thing, notice lmp's use of contractions. (i think they're called contractions? Grammar was 20+ years ago...) -- words with an apostrophe made from two other words. Don't for Do Not, Won't for Will Not, It'll for It Will... etc. Anyway-- you'll notice that when lmp writes a post, the only character to use apostrophe-words is Raefindan. That's because it's a modern speech pattern. All the other characters use non-apostropheed words.

Any other kind of anachronism is designed to make Raefindan stand out like sore thumb; to show the reader that He Doesn't Belong. He's a stranger and an alein in this place.

So the dog is very anachronistically named "George", or Jorge because he can't remember how to spell it.

Another anachronism: Raefindan's strategy of slowly introducing the dog to Gwillion. I'm guessing (correct me, lmp) that Raefindan is attempting to de-sensitize Gwillion to the dog because he understands some amount of modern psychology-- although he doesn't know why or where it came from. Again, this will make him stand out. Mellonin will be bemused by it all, Aeron may be a bit surprised that it worked-- but pleased-- and Ravion will wonder where this redheaded stranger came from, anyway.

There is an order and a logic to the anachronisms, and it's part of the story being woven about time travel and dreams. Raefindan has traveled to Middle-Earth from the 20th century; *then* he travels back via dreams a thousand years and experiences the life of Imrazor. This is the thread for connecting Amroth and Mellondu, in the end; Raefindan will have lived out both timeframes and will understand both stories, better than any of the other characters (except Erebemlin, but he was only in the northern part of the story.)

And in the very VERY end, it'll be interesting to see what happens to Raefindan, and where he finally ends up.

Does it make sense? Please ask questions if you have them.

[littlemanpoet]

What a great post, Helen! That was downright fun to read.

Please, please, please, can we stop calling them gypsies and start calling them wayfarers? 'Cause if Raefindan ever runs across them in this rpg, guess what he'll call 'em?

Nur, I'm a little fuzzy on what's expected of Ædegard right now. He'll "introduce us to all of them"??? To all the wayfarers? If that's what Liornung expects, he doesn't understand Ædegard yet.....