Dueling Wizards Werewolf II discussion thread

[Lhunardawen]

I vote for the first to get the highest number of votes to be lynched. *grumbles about coin-flipping*

Roa makes a good point about the GW being an extra Seer, and I agree that turning the extra scries into Ranger protections will be a bit too advantageous for the Good Team. It's enough that the GW finds out that the villager is not a wolf or the EW.

[the phantom]

Personally, I'd like the last person to reach the vote total to be lynched. That leaves open more voting possibilities in my mind. If you need to surpass the vote leader rather than simply tie them in order to get your candidate lynched you are obviously less likely to be successful, and therefore less likely to try it.

I've always thought one of the most telling things about voting behavior is when people swoop in to "save" someone from the chopping block. And making the last person to reach the count be the one who gets the axe would encourage that sort of saving behavior.

Or you could also have a situation like this-
Person 1- 5 votes
Person 2- 4 votes
Person 3- 4 votes

There are still a couple people left to vote who would like to see Person 2 or 3 lynched, but if the rules say the first person gets lynched then their votes are essentially worthless. But if the last person gets lynched their votes are still very powerful and then they will have to compete with each other to be the last to cast their vote, and how hard they try at it might be an indicator of how badly they want to lynch their candidate (or save the other candidate).

In my opinion the longer you can keep the decision up in the air and the more room you leave for multiple candidates to be under the gun, the better.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Myself and Roa will be the parents of Legate, Kitanna and Brinn.

So I am the son of Nogrod and Roa? Fantastic! I couldn't have imagined a better WWing family here (and that's not speaking about my sisters...)

(And it's not diminished by the fact that Nog dies immediately. The better actually, what if I was later forced to kill him? It can still happen with Roa though.)

Originally Posted by the phantom

Personally, I'd like the last person to reach the vote total to be lynched. That leaves open more voting possibilities in my mind. If you need to surpass the vote leader rather than simply tie them in order to get your candidate lynched you are obviously less likely to be successful, and therefore less likely to try it.

Ha! At last a question I can give my opinion on. Seriously now, also given the fact that lot of us... or me actually may be sometimes N/A for the DL (what was that? A sentence composed of abbreviations? It could have been worse though), I would fancy the idea of coin-flip. But that's just one personal vote... for it being personally convinient...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Roa makes a good point about the GW being an extra Seer, and I agree that turning the extra scries into Ranger protections will be a bit too advantageous for the Good Team. It's enough that the GW finds out that the villager is not a wolf or the EW.

Seconded.

And hey, a proper occupation just occurred to me. I want to be the little match girl!

[Thinlómien]

As smart as all we others are, I'm so glad to see Roa around and pointing out the flaws in the rule speculations. Her words about GW and EW make sense.

Originally Posted by Cailín

There should definitely be modfire for those inactive players who fail to vote two days in a row.

I'm inclined to agree. We have enough to hunt in the wolves and the EW, we don't want to go around chasing the mutes as well... (Sorry for rather horrible phrasing... ) But if there's a consensus against severe modfire, what if it's just for those who don't post at all ie vote things etc don't count? Althoguh, that does look like a bad compromise...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

what if it's just for those who don't post at all ie vote things etc don't count?

I think that might be a good solution.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think that might be a good solution.

I would also second that (hey, I'm starting to like this more and more. Finally questions I understand and can reply to them ).

***

I maybe have one more question, and I would like to apologize if it is answered here, but you know, I was not reading through all this rules discussion, so...

Originally Posted by Nog on the game thread

If the GW scries an ordo she becomes either a gifted (if there is room in the “roster” of max. 3 gifteds at a time) or is defended from the EW’s possible scry that Night (= can not be scried by the EW that Night).

Okay, I think I get this (the second part), it's simply a more "lawyerish" way of saying that the GW and EW, if they scry on the same person, their abilities simply cancel each other and nothing happens, right? Or if it means anything more, please clarify.

But, to this relates, when does the night scrying come in effect? Logically it would look like that it's calculated at the end of the Night, when everyone has posted their picks? Then, it will mean the Wizards can communicate with the new Gifteds/Wolves only the Night after, not the very same Night? (Or can they communicate with them during the Day as well?)

Okay, or I am gibbering nonsense, in that case feel free to ignore me

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, I think I get this (the second part), it's simply a more "lawyerish" way of saying that the GW and EW, if they scry on the same person, their abilities simply cancel each other and nothing happens, right? Or if it means anything more, please clarify.

If the GW and the EW try to scry the same person, he dies.

There's been talk whether the GW should have a gifted limit, and thus she could protect people against the EW's scrying on the nights she couldn't scry herself any more gifteds.
Personally I think it would be too much of an advantage for her, though.

Hope this was of some help and I didn't mess the things up myself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If the GW and the EW try to scry the same person, he dies.

There's been talk whether the GW should have a gifted limit, and thus she could protect people against the EW's scrying on the nights she couldn't scry herself any more gifteds.
Personally I think it would be too much of an advantage for her, though.

Hope this was of some help and I didn't mess the things up myself.

Eh... sure? Well at least on the game thread it looked quite differently, it looked like that the GW can simply protect the person. And surely even then, what if let's say there were a person who's already a Gifted, and the EW scried on her, but the GW did too (of course why would he do that, but it's technically possible; and f.ex. he could if he presumed that EW wants to scry that person, and wanted to keep this person to himself as a Gifted) - in that case, the person surely wouldn't die too? That will be pretty unfair. In any case I think the idea of dying is quite odd. Was it like that in the former game?

And if there are any disputes according to this, my vote would be definitely for letting the GW at least protect the people against EW. Because otherwise, EW can scry millions of Wolves but the GW has only a few Gifteds on her side. I know she technically has the ordos on her side as well, but... you see, in normal village you have also Wolves vs. both Gifteds and Ordos. So here you'd have Wolf kill vs. Ranger protection (is there a Ranger, right? If the GW "creates" him), and so you should have EW scrying vs. GW scrying. Balance, simply.

However I don't want to get deep into this... and I am puzzled as well as it looked like it's decided already anyway...

[the phantom]

If both wizards scry the same same person then their identities are revealed to each other, yes?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

If both wizards scry the same same person then their identities are revealed to each other, yes?

This is getting better and better Nogroood! Heeelp...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Eh... sure?

No. Forget all that I said.

I really have no idea where that came from - I seem to have mixed everything up indeed, but I don't know how, as it was still quite clear to me what we were talking about (the GW's ability to protect people) a while before I started typing that post.

But it's not quite decided yet, unless I've missed something again.

Originally Posted by the phantom

If both wizards scry the same same person then their identities are revealed to each other, yes?

I think that person only dies and the wizards don't learn each other's identities.

Maybe I should just shut up and wait for Nog before I manage to be any more confusing.

[mormegil]

As far as where I should belong...put me where you need me.

[THE Ka]

*tip toes in*

Aganzir and Lommy have written and asked about joining, and after thinking about the whole affair, I'd love to join!
Sorry to return an answer so late, I've been rather busy finishing up my school year lately, and still have a few more things to complete. I will be free to play though, mind you!
Now, off to read all of the rules and see what I got myself into.

Also, Lalaith, I am quite honored the offer to be adopted. I promise to be my usual neatfreak and cut back on the craziness as long as you don't send me back.
(I have all my teeth and vaccines. Promise.)

For occupations, I guess I'll be a dog whipper assistant and help to keep all of the rowdy and bad-tempered pups out of homes and food storages. Though, I don't know how I feel about whipping them, might give them a bop on the head and hug though. :-P

If there is any needed occupations though, definately put me where one is needed, I'm not really partial to where I'm grudging an existance.

~ thanking you Ka

[Valier]

Sorry Nogrod, You will have to count me out of this one. Now is not the time for me to get into a WW game (no matter how grand) good luck

[Thinlómien]

May I clear up the mess for you?

In the previous game, when both wizards scried the same person, they learnt each other's identity.

In this game, when both wizards scry the same person, s/he dies.

[Macalaure]

I have studied the rules and have the following questions:

If the Good Wizard has all the gifteds, but loses one gifted due to the Evil Wizard's scry or a wolfkill, assuming his scry isn't a wolf, will the scried person immediately replace the lost gifted (or will the GW only get a chance to regift the following night? I think the former is more fair.), or will he just be protected from the scry that didn't hit him? (I hope it's clear what I mean...)

I'm rather confused about the Good Wizard's ability to protect people from evil scries in case he has all gifteds. Weren't people scried by both in the same night supposed to die? Either I didn't understand something, or there's a contradiction in the rules.

On communication: As I understand it, the wizards and gifteds communicate with each other by sending what they want to say to the Mod (or respective Submod). Can the gifteds/wolves communicate to each other this way, too, or does all communcation among them have to go over their wizards (I mean something like the Hunter saying "Nogrod, please tell the Ranger....", or "Please tell all fellow wolves....", without the Wizards having the power to intervene).

After the Wizard Duel, the wolves learn each other's identity. Do the gifteds do that, too? I ask because usually the seer's identity is unknown to the other gifteds.

Furthermore,

++Modfire (actually, ++strong modfire, i.e., the two voteless days need not be consecutive);

++Lynch last who gets highest vote in case of a tie (with retractable votes that became a mess the last time, but we don't have them here).


Oh, and concerning occupations, I'd like to be an apple farmer.

[Macalaure]

Oh, another one:

If the wolves try to kill the Good Wizard at night, will only the evil team learn his identity, or will it be made public in the narration?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

If the Good Wizard has all the gifteds, but loses one gifted due to the Evil Wizard's scry or a wolfkill, assuming his scry isn't a wolf, will the scried person immediately replace the lost gifted (or will the GW only get a chance to regift the following night? I think the former is more fair.), or will he just be protected from the scry that didn't hit him? (I hope it's clear what I mean...)

Yes, the former also looks more fair to me. I thought about it too. Because otherwise, whenever a Gifted was killed, the GW would be with one less minion over one whole day, while the EW doesn't have a "minion-limit" like this, so he can always compensate his loss immediately.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I'm rather confused about the Good Wizard's ability to protect people from evil scries in case he has all gifteds. Weren't people scried by both in the same night supposed to die? Either I didn't understand something, or there's a contradiction in the rules.

That was exactly what we were all talking about, so I think we'd better wait for some official statement from Nogrod

[Thinlómien]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a contradiction in the rules...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by LommyLom

In the previous game, when both wizards scried the same person, they learnt each other's identity.

In this game, when both wizards scry the same person, s/he dies.

Ah, well there goes that strategy. In the last game I wanted both Wizards to scry me the same night so that the EW would be revealed to the GW, but doing a move like that in this game would simply kill me.

And I agree with my father on this point-

Originally Posted by MacDaddy

++Modfire (actually, ++strong modfire, i.e., the two voteless days need not be consecutive)

And then there was this-

After the Wizard Duel, the wolves learn each other's identity. Do the gifteds do that, too? I ask because usually the seer's identity is unknown to the other gifteds.

Even if the gifteds are not "told" each other's identities by the Mod, I do not believe there is any rule to stop the GW from sending them all a message telling them "The Seer is..." and so on. Of course if one of them gets ungifted and then the next night turned into a WW the GW will regret his decision, but that's just a risk you have to be willing to take. Plus there are ways to guard against that sort of thing.

[A Little Green]

I see I haven't posted my profession yet. I am a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, so most presumably a witch.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I see I haven't posted my profession yet. I am a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, so most presumably a witch.

No satanic rituals? What kind of witch are you?

Well, if occupations are recommended, then I'll be a highwayman.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Gwathie

No satanic rituals? What kind of witch are you?

None that you know of, you insolent little pup.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

None that you know of, you insolent little pup.

You are calling me little?? That's just plain funny, not to mention ironic.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by phantom 'homes

Even if the gifteds are not "told" each other's identities by the Mod, I do not believe there is any rule to stop the GW from sending them all a message telling them "The Seer is..." and so on. Of course if one of them gets ungifted and then the next night turned into a WW the GW will regret his decision, but that's just a risk you have to be willing to take. Plus there are ways to guard against that sort of thing.

Though I don't find the idea of the GW having such an ability, I do find the risk they'll encounter if they pick their gifted too late a rather fair balance. At first I was a bit perturbed that it would cause the game to fraction into too many subgroups, the same as with the EW ability.

Originally Posted by A Little Green Goodwitch

None that you know of, you insolent little pup.

Hee hee.

So I'm safe to guess that means people care only then?
What about all of the needy and feral furry children?

~ Think of the dogs! Ka

[Nogrod]

I just skimmed through the latest. I'm in Romania and will only be able to read and post haphazardly for a week.

I think there has been one misunderstanding - even if I now think the correct understanding also has a flaw.

The idea of the GW being able to "protect" someone from scrying if she had her roster full and didn't wish to try and scry for the finding of the EW was that she would be able to protect one of her own minions from the EW's scry. Then technically she isn't so much scrying her (the gifted has been scried already) but kind of counterscrying eg. not allowing the EW to scry that gifted that Night.

But thinking this forwards raises a problem as well to the GW, for this surely works for the EW as well as the one who could not be scried but didn't die surely is now a gifted known to be one to the EW.

Maybe that's not something the GW would like to do in the first place as she has a lot of work trying to find the EW by her scries. Clearly with a roster full the GW can go on "identity-scrying" in any case.

Then if both wizards scry the same person that one person dies having received too much magic the same Night.

Also I'd say there will be no open proclamation that the EW has learned the identity of the GW - or vice versa. That's Night-bussiness known only those who may know it.

About communication also one point. If the wizard gives away the identities of one or other gifteds/wolves to one or more others, it's her decision. After two or more know of each other they can communicate between themselves straight. But so long as the identities are not revealed by the wizard on purpose there is no such possibility. To me this would sound fair and straightforward. What do you think?

I try to come back to you sooner rather than later but I can't guarantee anything as the schedual here is quite tight.

Nice to see you The Ka to comfirm and sad to see you Valier not to do that...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

About communication also one point. If the wizard gives away the identities of one or other gifteds/wolves to one or more others, it's her decision. After two or more know of each other they can communicate between themselves straight. But so long as the identities are not revealed by the wizard on purpose there is no such possibility. To me this would sound fair and straightforward. What do you think?

Good, but I'd rather have it so that the wizard can reveal her minions' identities to each other, but that does not automatically give them the right to PM with each other, the wizard has to grant that right also.

[the phantom]

I think it is indeed a good idea to allow gifteds who have been revealed to each other to communicate, and I also agree with Lommy that this should not be automatic but an ability granted by the Wizard. Hmm... I can think of some interesting things that could develop as a result of this.

[Roa_Aoife]

The reason that the EW and the GW scrying the same person results in a death rather than a reveal is because in the last game, the above scenario happened on Night One. LMP thought that the first day was WAAAAAY too early for everything to be over, and so scratched the whole plan, leaving one very confused and, well, boastful innocent who got lynched on the first day. In the discussion afterwards, it was agreed that this method of reveal was too problematic. So instead, the innocent scried by both wizards dies. Wizards can still determine each other's identity by scrying the other wizard, attacking them via wolf or hunter, getting them lynched, or having the seer dream of them. That's plenty right there.

I don't believe the GW should be able to protect his own gifted from the EW's scrying, and here's why: If a gifted loses his giftedness, he does NOT change sides. He's still a good guy, and the chances of him becoming a wolf on the following night are slim to none, since both wizard's scrying the same person will kill him, or the EW will simply take him out. However, if a wolf is scried, he immediately changes sides to the good team, and any and all information he knows goes to the good team as well. The EW is actually at greater risk from the wolves being scried than the GW is from losing gifted. To take away even more risk of that would be giving too much of an advantage to the good team.

Also, the wizards should have complete control of the communication for their respective teams. Information control is the greatest asset each wizard has for enacting strategies.

Now, I just want to check on the order of events for each night, so here's what I think:

1. Wizards scry and get that information
2. Ranger protects, Hunter hunts, and Seer dreams
3. Wolves attack

Obviously it won't happen that way, well, ever. But for the purposes of determining what happens when, I think it's important to lay this out. It's important that the wizard's know what's going to happen every night at the start, at least as far as their own team is concerned. That way each wizard can best utilize their own team to it's fullest extent. I believe the GW's biggest issue was the passing of information that crippled the good team the most.

[mormegil]

Any approximate on starting dates?

[Gwathagor]

Hey, um, this is going to make me really look stupid, but...what exactly do the ranger and hunter do?

[Roa_Aoife]

Don't worry about it, Gwath.

The ranger picks one person a night to protect. If the wolves attack that person, there is no kill.

The hunter also picks one person a night to hunt. If the wolves kill the hunter, that person dies also.

It should also be noted that the hunter has a long and proud history of killing the seer.

[Gwathagor]

Ah, thanks. I must have missed that day of class in Werewolf 101.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Gwath

Well, if occupations are recommended, then I'll be a highwayman.

So my brother's a crook, eh? Awesome. My life just got a lot more exciting.

[Nerwen]

Now, there's one thing I want to clear up. Exactly what relation am I to Volo? Is this decided? Is he my son, or the cat? Or both (meaning one of us is crazy), or neither?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by McCaber

So my brother's a crook, eh? Awesome. My life just got a lot more exciting.

"Crook" is indelicate.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

"Crook" is indelicate.

I'm supposed to be indelicate, I'm your little brother. But I guess I'll be a henchman then.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, there's one thing I want to clear up. Exactly what relation am I to Volo? Is this decided? Is he my son, or the cat? Or both (meaning one of us is crazy), or neither?

Actually, I'm your grandfather.

[Roa_Aoife]

This is the family chart....