Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It would be nice to know when Lhuna has time to write. I think she promised this weekend. Here in Finland (+3GMT) it's late Saturday evening - like 10PM - so with Lhuna it's even later. So I gather she will not post in the next few hours...

I've gotten into the habit (from WW) of expecting Lhuna to post during the opposite 12 hours of the day from me, here on the Eastern Daylight Time Zone of the U.S. So right now it's roughly 3 a.m. by her. Yeah, she may be a night owl, but I figure we'll need to wait another 6 hours at least before she posts.

[Nogrod]

Allright.

I have moved the scene a bit forwards now. And I have taken some liberties with it. Hopefully not too many. Please inform me and I can change anything you think should be changed.

Eala: I thought that Ghem would attack as the noise from the passage came louder and louder and if they wished to make a run for it they'd have to do it sooner than later - and when Ulric caught Stigend's attention with his taunting that would have been the perfect moment for it.

------
EDIT-NOTICE: The discussion on the relative positions of the people in the kitchen contained such a lot of errors that I have deleted that part of this post entirely. Read lmp's take on the relative positions.

[Folwren]

IF I write a post for Thornden, he'll be running up from the courtyard of the alder tree, I think. And I believe Falco is out there as well. Isn't there a door from the kitchen to that courtyard? Did one of the outlaws shut and lock both exits from the kitchen (i.e. the one to the corridor and the one out in the courtyard)?

-- Folwren

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Isn't there a door from the kitchen to that courtyard? Did one of the outlaws shut and lock both exits from the kitchen (i.e. the one to the corridor and the one out in the courtyard)?

One of the outlaws locked the door out (to the alder court) but he couldn't have locked the one to the corridor leading to the hall as I think there is not one - at least yet - and if there were, he wouldn't have had time to do it anyhow...

But yes Falco is in the courtyard and now they will be hearing the sounds of a fight from inside...

Although someone needs to come in from the corridor - or through the outdoor - pretty soon as Stigend can't hold the three outlaws just by himself...

[littlemanpoet]

I've added the directions of the compass to "Plan 7" for the attached Eorling Mead Hall map. I hope that helps.

I forgot there were so many doors to the kitchen! Okay, here's how it works:

The NE door is to the Great Hall, and Eodwine and "Elborn" are running down it toward the kitchen. Apprently Ghem is closest to this one, which was contrary to how I had been reading Eala's posts; I had figured Ghem to be closest to the SE door.

The NW door is to the alder court, and is locked (as of the post just before Nogrod's which I haven't read yet), outside of which are Falco and apparently Thornden if Foley writes it that way.

Stigend is, as of the end of his most recent post, in between these two doors.

The SE door leads to the back yard, so to speak, and was the one I thought Ghem was closest to, through which he could have made a solo escape. Now I don't know what to expect.

The SW door is the one to the cellar, from which the outlaws have come.

The oven is in the North wall, and some other doohickey, I don't know what it is, is in the south wall; shelves? I would imagine that where the word "kitchen" is in the map, is a table on which Ginna was chopping whatever it was she was chopping; and now Stigend has it between himself and Withold & Ginna, and Ulric and Rowenna, while Ghem is apparently to his right.

Everybody clear on that? Any questions? Any corrections to this needed?

Finally, it's time for Eodwine to appear in the kitchen. So I'll write a post. I'll describe "Elborn" coming into the room right behind him, and the way I see it, Eodwine is going to keep moving forward until he has blocked the SE door, whilst Elborn stays in the way of the NE door, effectivley forcing Ghem to escape through the Alder court; I would expect Ulric and Withold to follow suit if they have any intentions of getting out of there alive. I'll leave Elborn's role pretty vague so that Eala can write what she wants.

[Folwren]

Hm. What do you think the scale is on your maps, Elempi? Looking at it, I realize Thornden and Leof may not have been able to hear Stigend, they were so far off and with so many walls between them all. What do you all think? They're in the stable, which is rather far from the kitchen.

-- Folwren

[Lhunardawen]

I'm so sorry, this weekend was busier than I expected... Catching up now...

EDIT: Post up. Heh. Ginna's such a silly girl..

[Ealasaide]

Eh... I haven't read the new posts to the thread yet, but at the end of my post, Ghem was closest to the door from the Alder court, not the door to the Great Hall.

I'm off to read the new developments now!

[Nogrod]

I'm going to edit my last post a little bit to straighten out some of my misconceptions...

Does it look reasonable if the situation is described now as the following:

Ulric and Rowenna are somewhere near the top-right corner of the kitchen (SW door leading to the cellar)?

Ghem is at the bottom-right corner (NW door leading to the Alder Court)?

Stigend is to the left from Ghem, somewhere in the bottom-middle between the corridor-door (NE) and the Alder Court door (NW)?

Withold and Ginna are about in the middle of the kitchen?

Lord Eodwine has just reached the "back-door" top-left (SE door)? And Elborn is somewhere in the middle of the left left-side between the corridor-door (NE) and the backdoor (SE) - or possibly still at the corridor-door?

I'll change my post accordingly if this looks like a reasonable description...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Hm. What do you think the scale is on your maps, Elempi? Looking at it, I realize Thornden and Leof may not have been able to hear Stigend, they were so far off and with so many walls between them all. What do you all think? They're in the stable, which is rather far from the kitchen.

Darn it, once upon a time I had distances all figured out. I seem to recall deciding that the guest rooms were 8x8, making the guest room wing width out at 20 feet, so I'll go with that. See the attached for a map of scale.

I'd accuse you guys of driving me nuts with your questions, but I'd be lying. I love 'em.

So anyway, if Thornden and Léof are down by the stables, with at least two walls between and roughly 90 feet away, they'd hear something loud but vague over the roof of the guest room wing. You decide.

Noggie, your revised estimated locations look right to me.

[Ealasaide]

Looks reasonable to me, Nogrod!

[Nogrod]

Okay. I will edit my last post with this placement in mind - tomorrow as now I need to sleep now.

But please Ealaside, I think it might be your "turn"...
(Not that no one else could write, but now Lhuna, lmp and myself have posted the last as active characters in this scene - and it's possible that Foley needs to wait until someone breaks free from the Alder court door to take part... or she might have her own ideas...)

But anyhow. I don't think it will be only lord Eodwine and Elborn who rush in... At least Garwine should be in there as soon as the aforementioned people - and Garstan I think at least... So even if the writers of all the people are not around online most of the people in the MH would have been at the "ceremony" and thence heard the alarm and so at least the adult males would have gotten in to help their eorl... or what do you say?

[Ealasaide]

I say I'm halfway through a post! I will try to have it finished & out there tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

[littlemanpoet]

Garwiné has been ordered to remain on guard by the body of Rilef. If he leaves, he has disobeyed a direct order. Since Alcarillo isn't doing much writing at the moment, someone else is either going to have to take that character in hand or leave him where he is.

I'm wondering what Manawyth might do in such a situation? I'm thinking that he's still under house arrest, and is charged with horse thievery - - - twice over now - - - - but still considers outlawry beneath himself, and the kidnapping of women, not to mention murder for the sake of loot, to be outrageous, something that Manawyth would be aroused to oppose..... but he's not my character..... (sigh)

Now to go read half a post....

[Ealasaide]

Outlaws are up. I'm working on a post for Elián now.

[Nogrod]

Nice move Eala... even if I think it may have not been the best one for Ghem...

Just think of Stigend's point of view to begin with... Of the three Ghem is now the most dangerous as he can move without a hostage and behind the Alder Court door there must be people of the Hall waiting... So he probably shouldn't attack Withold (holding Ginna as a hostage) but Ghem who is now near enough - unlike Ulric & Rowenna (I think lmp needs to settle that anyway as Rowenna is his character).

But even more gravely (to Ghem): there should be one or two people running in the corridor to enter the kitchen any second now... at least Garstan and Garwine (yes he's ordered to guard the body but this kind of alarm is a different thing and surely lord Eodwine would have at least showed with his hand for him to follow when he passed him running in to the passage)?

It's sad Celuien and the more so Alcarillo have been with us so little lately but their characters still would need to take a stance, wouldn't they? And where's our dwarf?

What I try to say is that the passage from the hall to the kitchen is full of armed men... So getting Ghem out requires something else... but what...?

It will be interesting to see how we will get ourselves through from this set up. If I remember it correctly from somewhere (a PM with Eala or a discussion here) but Ghem should be able to get out and with others it's more ambivalent - Rowenna surely is another matter and we probably won't be killing lord Eodwine, Ginna or Stigend either...

I might do my part by making Stigend to act stupidly and trying to save Ginna from Withold first and thence leaving Ghem alone - but that would mean that Falco and Thornden would need to wait yet for a moment to get into action from the Alder Court...

What do you think?

Or surprises anyone?

[littlemanpoet]

I should think that the Eorl of the Middle Emnet has more than just one man at arms after a couple months - so what if they haven't been named yet? So let's assume that there are a few others besides Garwine. How many, I don't know; something that seems reasonable.

As to the situation in the kitchen, I thought Ghem was pretty stupid and overly loyal in not just ducking out the Alder Court door and leaving Ulric and Withold in the lurch; I would probably have had Falco not see him until too late. But that option was not chosen, for some reason that is beyond me; he's not my character. Anyway, Rowenna is taking a "wait and see" attitude, especially since she has not got any free movement at all, and she has now decided that holding her tongue is probably the best course of action for the nonce.

As to Eodwine, he doesn't see much point in attacking either Withold or Ulric because he has no interest in endangering the lives of Ginna and Rowenna. So he's willing to maintain a defensive and holding posture until more of his House show up to tip the balance against Ulric and Withold. Speaking of which, I would expect that Ulric and Withold, and Ghem for that matter, realize that time is of the essence, and they are losing it rapidly the longer they just stand there and hold the two women hostage. So as time progresses, the initiative and advantage will switch to the Eorl's House, away from the outlaws. It's like a siege only without trebuche's and all that good stuff.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I should think that the Eorl of the Middle Emnet has more than just one man at arms after a couple months

Exactly to the point. Stigend was hired for two purposes, because he was a handy craftsman but also because he had served in the men at arms... but surely there are others beside Thornden and Garwine...

How many, I don't know; something that seems reasonable.

Will we try to be historical (whatever it is?) or "Tolkienish" (whatever it is?) or just plain "fanfic-writers" (whatever it is?)?

I'd say 3-5 would sound realistic to me as permanent household knights / men at arms, whatever. To these would be added people like Thornden and Stigend with their respective roles in the Mead Hall. Not to say the quests...

As to the situation in the kitchen, I thought Ghem was pretty stupid and overly loyal in not just ducking out the Alder Court door and leaving Ulric and Withold in the lurch; I would probably have had Falco not see him until too late. But that option was not chosen

As I said earlier: a nice move, but not the best for Ghem. Now we need to think something different...

One suggestion would be: we have never said how ready the kitchen was. I mean that has been all the way under construction - the oven and the fireplace are made as Garstan has done that and the passage from the Hall is ready as well as Stigend has done that but maybe there is some unfinished work in the kitchen Ghem might use for his escape?

Speaking of which, I would expect that Ulric and Withold, and Ghem for that matter, realize that time is of the essence, and they are losing it rapidly the longer they just stand there and hold the two women hostage. So as time progresses, the initiative and advantage will switch to the Eorl's House, away from the outlaws.

That's the reason why I thought Eala should post asp but his latest post didn't kind of solve the problem - even if it was an imaginative one and pretty good as such.

But we'll surely solve this.

One thing coming to my mind - and probably the best I have right now - would be another miscalculation of Stigend (I can write that, surely - easily tomorrow = under 24 hours). He could try to take on Withold and saving Ginna with a risk. That would leave a path open for a "quick reacting" Ghem to unbolt the door and run away to the Alder Court. Then it would be a question only how Falco and Thornden fail to catch him...

[Nogrod]

A quick addenda...

Seeing lmp's last post I don't think Stigend would disobey his lord's word and try to attack Withold... really... he would not.

We need to get into the structure of the kitchen then?

[Nogrod]

Okay, one more idea.

If it's okay with Lhuna that Ginna will be wounded we might go this way...

After the general rant described by lmp Withold would get overloaded with tension and cut Ginna's throat with his knife (well not mortally anyway as possibly Ginna would be spirited enough to make a last moment duck away from the mortal wound or something) to show they mean it and should be set free... stupid but understandable.

Stigend would run on Withold and attack him and just then Ghem might try to slip away from the bolted door (as Stigend is no more in his way) - and all these Eodwine's men he sent outside to the Alder Court would not yet be in place... So he should only manage to get past Falco outside (and possibly Thornden - not easy that one!)?

What do you think?

As I have a few days left of my luxurious holidays I would be happy to write a post staging that situation tomorrow.

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry Noggie, I haven't time to read your posts right now. I'm not satisfied with my last post. I'm going to change it a bit in about 5 hours when I'm on lunch break. So hang in there. I'll explain more later, but "punch in" is in just moments.

[Lhunardawen]

Isn't it too much for Ginna? And I forgot she still had her bandage on! I don't mind personally, if she has to be wounded again, though, if it's really necessary.

I was thinking she could probably do some brave but stupid move to save herself or something, but I don't know how. I'll just follow what happens for now.

[Ealasaide]

I NEVER claimed that Ghem was mental giant. I did have something planned, but subsequent events have mucked it up, so I am re-thinking the situation.

Do I have a say in what the outlaws do? It looks like you all are planning it out for me. Do I have to do what you decide?

[Ealasaide]

Having had to trash my earlier plan (& my post for Elian), I am now working on a new Outlaw post.

[littlemanpoet]

I hope, Eala, that you can consider these three outlaws yours. If we put words or actions on them that you need undone, please say so. I'm going to edit my post now.

[Ealasaide]

Oooooohhhhh.... I hope you didn't change it too much. I just finished my post! I'll have to see what changes you made.

[littlemanpoet]

You had better read it, Eala. I probably screwed up half your post. Sorry. But I'm much happier with the set up now. Harreld has turned into the "chaos element" that Ghem can use to whatever advantage he chooses, not to mention Ulric and Rowenna individually.

EDIT: Correction: most of your post.

So would you like me to change mine a little bit so some of yours can stay? (sigh)

[Ealasaide]

Yes, you did screw me up royally. I went ahead and placed my post, so please read it and we'll decide which way to go.

[Lhunardawen]

Me loves Harreld.

[Ealasaide]

I would appreciate it. If I have to throw this one away, that will make two posts in a row that I have had to trash.

[Nogrod]

I'd say we leave all the things as they are now but Eala deletes the last paragraph of his latest post describing the other outlaws getting out from the kitchen.

For the following reasons:
- it's too fast a conclusion... we'd love to write more...
- it makes all the MH men in the kitchen look like a bunch of idiots incapable of doing anything
- it contradicts with lmp's post about Harreld making a charge (from which I'd love to continue...)

[Ealasaide]

I can do that but I do have a few comments:

Regarding too fast a conclusion: I had not intended that to be the conclusion. Drama could continue in the Alder Yard.

Regarding the Eorl's men looking like idiots: Huh? I didn't think that the Eorl would charge forward when it could lead directly to the death of Ginna and/or Rowenna. To me, it seemed prudent of the Eorl to give them a little space. When they did make a move for the door, it would happen very quickly. Stigend did get an axe hit on Withold on his way out the door. How is that idiocy? Actually, I had thought you might like that. Silly me.

LMP had not made the change showing Herreld's attack until AFTER I had finished my post. Since he had offered to change his post to accomodate mine, I was waiting to see what that change would be before making any changes to my post. Therefore, taking Herreld's attack into consideration would have involved my being psychic. I am not.

[Nogrod]

Anyhow let's let Ghem to get to the yard...

With the others... I'd like to make Stigend to kill / severely wound Withold personally (as he's so near and Harreld has started the thing anyway) but I could refrain if anyone has a better storyline-idea...

*Shrugs*

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, everyone please stop and take a deep breath. And exhale again.

Thank you.

First I want to set up expectations for us all: we are all of us sensitive about our own writing. Criticism of another's writing is stepping into tricky waters where the currents are fast and changing and it's very easy to lose one's footing .... especially if English is our second language. So....

If you have a problem with the structure of someone's story telling, send me a PM about it. An example would be the degree to which the outlaws can have free movement in confined quarters while their opponents stand with weapons ready. I will look into the issue and make a decision. That's my job. That way you can be angry with me, or not, and I'm quite happy to live with that if necessary.

If you have a problem with what someone else posted because it conflicts with what you just posted, courteously say so on this discussion thread.

If you have ideas as to how things might play out in the storyline, please say so here; if another writer chooses not to accept your ideas for his or her character, you simply need to live with it.

If you find another writer insulting or offensive in discussions, please PM me about it instead of answering the writer directly. I'll take a look and find (I hope) an amicable solution. You're quite free to be angry with me if you don't like my decision, I can handle it.

If another puts words in the mouth of your character, or gives actions to your character, that don't fit your character, courteously request a change.

Thank you.

Now for my thoughts on the current situation.

I would like Eala to put her post back up. What I saw of it on my short lunch break looked pretty good to me, although it conflicted with that which I had just cross-posted. Where I see contradictions between her post and mine, I will revise my post as needed; if I see any specifics that I feel the need for Eala to change hers, I'll let her know. But I don't think I'll be asking for much change in her post, especially since she has been very quick to change her posts for the sake of others lately. Specifically, I'm thinking of having the blacksmith twins come in AFTER the action in Eala's post, which should remove any contradictions, and still give Stigend the opportunity Noggie wishes for.

One more aspect of this issue: how much free movement does an outlaw have in a hostage situation? A lot. The outlaws are the ones threatening the lives of people dear to those who are besieging the hostages. Therefore, Eodwine will shout down any sudden movements from his own people in order to save Ginna and Rowenna from any harm, much less possible death. That's my decision. You may be angry with me if you like. I'm okay with it.

[Folwren]

I'd like to say real quick that I...really...am not here until Friday. I'm at camp and can only check this like once a day for about two minutes at a time. So don't make any plans around me. Or, if you do, make plans that are able to wait acouple days yet.

Sorry.

-- Foley

[Nogrod]

I'm breathing freely and will settle with any decisions you people come up with...

Sorry if something I've said has annoyed anyone.

[Ealasaide]

My edited post will be back up sometime tomorrow. Unfortunately the only remaining copy is on my office computer and I am at home today.

[littlemanpoet]

One additional thing to keep in mind about working with the plot twists in other writers' posts is that "Time" is fluid. You need not be stuck in thinking that your character is in "suspended animation", as it were, for the duration of other people's posts. So your posts can cover the same plot time as all the previous posts for which it makes sense.

For example, Elempi is posting that Harreld is stomping down the hallway and then stops and then roars and charages. During that same time-period, Noggie can have Stigend do something completely independently, because Elempi has made no comment on Stigend's character.

If I'm saying something you already know and you're wondering why I'm bothering, just let it pass; if this helps, great.

[littlemanpoet]

Are people waiting for me to revise my post before continuing? I was waiting for Eala to re-post her post, after which I was going to revise mine and carry the Harreld bit into a new post. Just checking.

Another trick that we might find helpful: Other writers have their characters do surprising things, to which our first reaction may be, "But my character would have done such and such in the middle of that action! - - I need to ask that writer to revise accordingly." That's the obvious way to go, but there's a better way - a Tolkienian way.

The Tolkienian way went like so: Tollers would make up an Elvish word, then find himself asking the question, "well how did that word come to be?" Then he'd write a story about it.

So when something doesn't happen the way you expected, ask yourself, "Now, why didn't my character do such and such when that character did so and so?" Then use your imagination to see what kind of answer you come up with. You might surprise yourself that what results turns out to be better and more interesting than going with the original plan.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Are people waiting for me to revise my post before continuing? I was waiting for Eala to re-post her post, after which I was going to revise mine and carry the Harreld bit into a new post. Just checking.

I have been waiting for you both...

But Eala said she would post today so it might be soon. Good to know you're going to revise your posts lmp as well so that I don't rush in when there still are possible changes...