Riddles in the Downs

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Pitchwife was a great character and linden avery's repair of him one of most memorable feats

Oh gods, after all these years finally someone who gets it! Well met, I say!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I wonder if the 'He' of line two might be Aule - he both could and couldn't beget the dwarves, so to speak.

That's a really appropriate response, tho not quite right. Aule, a Vala had a 'portfolio' in crafting and making in a particular sphere or area.

So, tho the identity you've named is not quite right, the area of Aule's 'making' in Arda is one and the same with the He of the riddle. And for very much similar reasons as you've given.

Cheers Pervinca

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Oh gods, after all these years finally someone who gets it! Well met, I say!

Truly I got to thinking about The First and Pitchwife and their most beautiful union after seeing your Avatar. I remember Pitchwife also during the repair of the main mast of the Dromond, which was another of the moments that have stayed with me over the decades.

[Ivriniel]

I'll just move this to the new page and do a quick sum up of what's been figured out.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Tall One, Handsome One, comely so we see
yet Children, some would say, both can and cannot be begot of He
Lofty Lord to Those, yet not so to These, why say three times three?
1200 times the Summer of the Sun - some would say disease
Arousal then, the Might of Men, Surrender to Elven Vanity
Yet it seems such fun, and such splendour for the Elven Tree,
because, odd is the even of 300 and why does this mean 1500 for every--one!
Disease again, yet, nay still not seen by anyone
and still not even for ninety summer suns beyond the 1500 for everyone
But look again--tall ships and tall kings--and again--three times three--
What Orc would put that upon a pike? Nay, this cannot be!
Is it not a head, for of the body it was, of Elven Vanity
Who of course, is that supposed to mean?
Can someone explain this to me?
So why say 'it's the gate into the day, not dawned, beyond the night'?
And then, what brought they from the foundered land?
Over the flowing sea?
Nay--not yet seven stars and seven stones
and Nay -- not yet one white tree

1. Pitchwife pegged the numbers as about The Tale of the Years and the pike thing is Celebrimbor's head on a pike.
2. Tho Pervinca has not quite the right identity for the 'He' in naming Aule, what he got right was that the 'He' in the riddle has/operates under the same 'portfolio' of expertise as Aule--crafting/manship. I'll add here that Aule's Dwarves were borne of Love of Eru even tho they also, it might be said, were begot of Vanity. Eru spared the Dwarves for love. But, love was not always the prime directive of other crafts of Vanity.

So - a 'He' of Aulie's domain, yet not Aule, --master craftsperson-- who, metaphorically can and cannot beget 'progeny' (metaphor) as can Eru.

I'm looking for responses, especially, to the particular questions in the riddle cheers everyone

[Pitchwife]

All right, let's try to shed some more light into this darkness. From LotR Appendix B,The Tale of Years :

Second Age 1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him, but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans beginn to make permanent havens.

+ 300 = 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

+ 90 = 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

With that in mind, the person addressed at the beginning must be Sauron, handsome and comely in his disguise as Annatar Lord of Gifts, Lord of the Seven and the three times three = Nine, but not of the Three. He can beget no children, as Evil cannot create but only mar, but wasn't he something like the project manager in charge of turning Elves into Orcs for Morgoth way back when?[/vague memory], so Orcs could be his metaphorical children?

"Tall ships and tall kings" seems to refer to the Númenoreans building havens, as mentioned in the 1200 annal, and/or to the navy Tar-Minastir sent to aid Gil-galad.

Im still hazy about the "disease" mentioned twice, and "the gate into the day" etc. The latter is obviously a quotation, but from where and said by whom? And how does it all hang together?

(PS. - Pitchwife has a lot of great scenes all over the Second Chronicles. My favourite is when the First tells of her temptation by the Elohim, when one of them took the shape of an unstunted Pitchwife and she rejected him because he lacked her husband's heart and humour - awww!

But I suppose we shouldn't take discussion of Giantish matters too far on this thread, lest the skwerlz descend on us.)

[Pervinca Took]

I did think of Annatar, and Frodo's answer regarding the orcs (and whether they eat and drink): 'the shadow that made them can only mock; it cannot make.'

Not as eloquently as Pitchwife, though.

Could the disease be the unwholesomeness that Sauron brought to two different places when, after his fall, he took up residence there? Mirkwood, due to his proximity (in Dol Guldur - is that right - ie is it near Mirkwood?) and then in Mordor. (I'm not sure Mordor was particularly a health-spa before he went back there, though).

[Ivriniel]

Hey there Pitchwife excellent numerology hahaha - we'll have to set u up with a shopfront and advertise

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

All right, let's try to shed some more light into this darkness. From LotR Appendix B,The Tale of Years :

Second Age 1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him, but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans beginn to make permanent havens.

+ 300 = 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

+ 90 = 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

yes, yes, and yes -

With that in mind, the person addressed at the beginning must be Sauron, handsome and comely in his disguise as Annatar Lord of Gifts,

Yes - I've always wondered if he had a 'gf', or series (typical bad boi, bad boi romping, or bf/s for that matter, or both), and whether or not that had anything to do with his alliance formations, or process. Sort of like Dorian Grey.

Lord of the Seven and the three times three = Nine, but not of the Three. He can beget no children, as Evil cannot create but only mar, but wasn't he something like the [b]project manager in charge of turning Elves into Orcs for Morgoth[/b[ way back when?[/vague memory], so Orcs could be his metaphorical children?

HAHAHAHAHA - prolly - and most prolly a micromanager. Did he have control issues or what! Eru must have had a lot child-rearing headaches hahahaha

The ideas about evil not being able to beget children and marring I used. I was a bit off the mark with that one in some ways. I don't think Sauron ever 'made' anything living of his own, that I can recall. Morgoth had tanties and spat his dummy marring Eru's creations - with a project manager.

But, I kinda decided Ringwraiths were Sauron's children. Definitely had anti-social tendencies, as did Sauron's Vampires, and I think also he did the Werewolves (of Tol Sirion, FA, I think).

"Tall ships and tall kings" seems to refer to the Númenoreans building havens, as mentioned in the 1200 annal, and/or to the navy Tar-Minastir sent to aid Gil-galad.

Woulda got right up Sauron's nose to see so much Numenorean might. I always get confused about timelines - Ar Pharazon in returning took Sauron back to Numenor. I seem to recall the One was made by then. The Rings were forged, weren't they, by the time Sauron was taken captive?

If they were do we have Ringwraith candidates from The Land of Gifts? Might have appealed to a Numenorean from a disaffected blood line. (Actually, sounds wrong. I can never seem to remember when exactly Ringwraiths appear. I think its' around 800 or 900 TA. But that doesn't say anything about 'when' a man received one of the Nine and then 'how long' it all took. But we never found out which three Numenoreans became wraiths.

We know that when the Witchking was standing, his knee was where Merry cleaved undead flesh (I think Merry was kneeling). Tolkien used the words "mighty knee" to describe the Witchking in a reference to stature.

So what's left?

Im still hazy about the "disease" mentioned twice, and "the gate into the day" etc. The latter is obviously a quotation, but from where and said by whom? And how does it all hang together?

......

(PS. - Pitchwife has a lot of great scenes all over the Second Chronicles. My favourite is when the First tells of her temptation by the Elohim, when one of them took the shape of an unstunted Pitchwife and she rejected him because he lacked her husband's heart and humour - awww!

I so hear you. I think that were it not for moments like that, so timeless and reminder of where to rest the heart when in solitude, so recall a way to live a real life in our often creepy, crazy world. I'm moved to recall the mythology like that, and (those Elohim - my god, they just weren't right, were they). I think the moderators will be okay with 'just a touch' of ye olde Donaldson-ian ways. If I put it on topic, that should help:

There is a clue in Pitchwife's bodily bearing, actually, that aligns with the Riddle. It's interesting, isn't it, the strange coincidences. Pitchwife's 'spirits' and 'heart' of Giant were 'not diseased' -- in fact a Giant of such moving beauty, joy and great loyalty and love -

Even though, I seem to recall, his deformation was, by part, affliction of the Bane in the background, creeping over the world - Sunbane.

The next poster follows this idea on.

Thanx so much for the responses, Pitchwife, and kind regards

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I did think of Annatar, and Frodo's answer regarding the orcs (and whether they eat and drink): 'the shadow that made them can only mock; it cannot make.'

Not as eloquently as Pitchwife, though.

Thanx Pervinca, I think that's perfectly put. You've added the last and missing pieced to the riddle really nicely.

Could the disease be the unwholesomeness that Sauron brought to two different places when, after his fall, he took up residence there? Mirkwood, due to his proximity (in Dol Guldur - is that right - ie is it near Mirkwood?) and then in Mordor.

Right on. Disease means Sauronic 'pestilence'. Wherever that one (One) (pardon pun) walked, things withered, faded, failed, got warped, started sucking lifeforce outa things, and such. Real fun to have around, that Maia! hahahaha

The Noldor in Eregion missed it from 1200 to the disaster of 1590.

(I'm not sure Mordor was particularly a health-spa before he went back there, though).

hahahahah He'd have made the chlorination stuff that smells into something that UNsmells hahahaha (Unlight, Ungoliant, 'un' etc), and UNkills germs or something like that!!!!! I know,

One Spa to Rule them All
One Spa to Filter them
One Spa to Wraith-ise those Germs
And in the Armpit Grow them!

hahahahah

[Ivriniel]

the one item of the riddle - i'll complete. It's minor, and wasn't asked as a question.

"Lofty Lord to Those, yet not so to These..."

Referred to Annatar's initial coming, I think it was in Lindon, where he spoke to Cirdan's mob, and they thought he seemed a bit off colour, so they sent Mr Bad Boi Annatar (with aftershave that smelt fine, but seemed foul), to the Noldor in Eregion (and let's face it. After the Kinslaying, they all had a bit of that same aftershave thing - a bit of stench, of the UNsmell kind. Noldor were never the best judges of character.

Seemed a thread thru Aule's aligned persons. The Noldor, most gifted in Crafting. Sauron, the renegade Maia of Aule's domain. And Aule - who wrought some off-centre things in crafting - but redeemed were the Mighty Dwarves and truly, as well, their 'firmament', bearing Aule, most resistant to even a Maia of Aule's realm: nigh immunity to the seven.

Interesting all the cross-themes, in this one, I found

Thanx for the responses

Whose Next? You two decide

[Pervinca Took]

Pitchwife did the vast majority of the work. I'd say it's definitely over to Pitchwife.

(Also, although I have loads of experience in writing cryptic clues, I don't think I've ever written a riddle).

(By the way, the first disease I thought of was the one that carried off Lalaith, but then I realised I was in the wrong Age).

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Pitchwife did most of the work. I'd say it's definitely over to Pitchwife.

(Also, although I have loads of experience in writing Cryptic Rules, I don't think I've ever written a riddle).

I hear ya it's a tat (just a tat, only a tat - writing a riddle in public only not like 'hideous', I mean we could have distended bellies for starvation, or have lost any of out family - Ebola - dear eru, thank u for getting on top of the epidemic, but an Elvish prayer for the deceased). Anyhooz seems to me, Master Pitchwife *bows* it's 'tag ur it!

I'm sure it'll be perfectly perfect,

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Pitchwife did the vast majority of the work. I'd say it's definitely over to Pitchwife.

(Also, although I have loads of experience in writing cryptic clues, I don't think I've ever written a riddle).

(By the way, the first disease I thought of was the one that carried off Lalaith, but then I realised I was in the wrong Age).

PS Pervinca, who says we can't have TWO riddles running CONCURRENT, in fact, I gottan idea

Say - why don't u wait for Pitwife to caste his riddle - then - add in a 'duo riddle' concept - i.e. write either of:

1. An Extension.
2. An Inversion.
3. An Augmentation

or

simple Second Verse - that somehow links theme one (Pitwife) to ur Theme Two

then we all gotta Duo Riddle to answer

Interested? :anyone else want to pipe up to say 'yay or nay'?

[Pitchwife]

Butbutbut what's the solution to the riddle as a whole? Sauron? Rings of Power? Or is there even one? *scratches head in confusion*

OK anyway, if you consider this riddle solved I can try to cobble something together in the next couple of days, but I'm a bit rusty, so if Pervinca has something up her sleeve I'm fine with her going ahead.

As for the timeline, the Rings of Power (including the One) were forged roughly in the middle of the Second Age, whereas the big action with Ar-Pharazôn was about millennium and a half after that, with the Nazgûl first appearing inbetween, in S.A. 2251.

I notice you seem fascinated with Sauron's erotic life, Ivriniel! I'm not sure if he indulged in such pursuits at all, being a Maia, but if he did, I think he would have used sex as a tool for domination only (if you've read the Gap series, think of Angus Thermopyle with less mother issues, more self control and way more malice).

(As for my namesake and his creator, much as I'd like to talk about them at greater length I really feel we shouldn't clutter the Riddles thread with that, but if you're interested in discussing Tolkien with an eye on Donaldson (or Donaldson with an eye on Tolkien), I made a thread about Donaldson's reading of LotR a few years ago; we could revive it and move over there, or you could just PM me. Cheers!)


EDIT: x-ed with the two of you by half an hour. I really shouldn't post from work! *rolleyes-at-self*

[Pervinca Took]

Psssst! Come and play in the Password thread too!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Butbutbut what's the solution to the riddle as a whole? Sauron? Rings of Power? Or is there even one? *scratches head in confusion*

Okay It's the tale of the years, from Annatar's arrival into Eregion. Numenorean beginnings.

“Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree."

The end of the riddle - it's the end of the Tale of the Years for the tale of years told in rhyme

Nay--not yet seven stars and seven stones
and Nay -- not yet one white tree

Finishes with that part of Numenorean History not yet covered by Tolkien's poem. It's not until well towards the end of SA (when Elendil flees the Drowing of Numenor and the armada of Ar Pharazon is borne, gurgle gurgle a kagillion years in the caves of the forgotten, until they getta chance in the remaking. I hope their wait was worth it. I imagine Ar Pharazon would have been quite well very over all his people throwing rotten tomatoes at him over the aeons for leading them astray. And people everywhere saying "Where's Tar whatshisname - There's Ar Phewagain Kids! He stinks - toss more tomatoes. Don't talk to him, he's the reason we don't have sandpits and normal toys like your cousins upstairs, the snooty ones that thought they were better than us, well, they're in that normal place, Duned-whoozits we keep trying to tell you about"

I'll answer the riddle - explained in Rhyme

Numenor, being founded after The War of Wrath,
Yea! Earendil went forth with Vingilot
And Elros, brother twin, founded Estel in Wandering
Thence far off into the Night
Annatar - Lord of Gifts he bore Unlight
First to Lindon, Cirdan's Realm
A land of Farsight Straight, True and Clear
Where Palantir Emyn Beriad to Tol Eresea its glance
And so tho Cirdan was of Nolddorin kind
He Bore Unsight, yet true so sees Annatar's Hue
it so seeming light, yet as tho by some art,
So say Cirdan, Nay Annatar! Lord not is one who bears Gifts
Into the Night though shalt roam be not our Kin and Home

And so, fled Annatar unto Celebrimbor's Abode
Where it was that he pondered long
Galadriel's sending away of Feanor's kin without love's bond
For Galadriel, she did, refuse Celebrimbor's hand to wed
For was it not so, that unfriends with Feanor she was unto the End

And woe, then now for that is how Annatar found a foothold
The Elessar tho Galadriel held, the love of Celebrimbor's Hope
And while hearts wounded pondered long
Celebrimbor's hand, Annatar did hold
And under the moon and starlight said
Ai! Annatar - Celebrimbor deceived who
seemed himself said a Ring I see Foreseen Tonight
Nay Three I see of Elvenkind -
tho doom was wrought, for it was Annatar who spoke
and Celebrimbor so heard what was seen and so thus it was

Yet Three Time Three again for Men
For Governace of Mortal needs Unsight
Yet not the Kind Cirdan holds well
And so it was Celebrimbor fell
For Sauron's words 'Unsight' meant 'Unwell' but only for Men
And that is how Celebrimbor missed the Ring Spell

And long Sauron wrought his Unliving Children's Hell
'The Nine he wrought and Seven as well
And from 1500 to 1950 - Gwaith I Mirdain Cirdan knew so well
A Hall of Great Lore, of Elven Spell and Realm Valinor nigh even as well
Thus, Celebrimbor Fell
For Valinor in Middle Earth, a Vanity of Sauron's head
For though Elf wrought Ring of Sparing and Unfading Long
Yet still, one thread alone of Middle Earth
Was what Sauron needed to Weave One around all
Eslave all and yet be One,
to Rule them All, through Slave of Birth,

Narya! Vilya! Nenya Free!
Yet one thread each of Middle Earth's Realm each must have held
And so on Orodruin's Night
in -- not Unsight -- but Unlight that is of Ea Running in the Inverse
Ash Nazg Durbataluk - Orodruin's Might
Ash Nazg Gimbatul - Orodruin's Despite
Ash Nazg Thrakataluk - Orodruin's Unlife
Ach Burzum Ishi Krimpatul - Orodruin's laugh Unto Midnight

It is 1590 - the Dawn of the Dark Night

The Orcs they came and feasted on Elven Light
They hacked and maimed the Ost-In-Edhil - Eregion's Plight
Celebrimbor he stood, at the Mirdain's Gate
The Hordes of Hate and glee of greed's might
Transgressed and trammelled Cirdan's last Rite

His head, they hewed and put upon a pike
And as Sauron feasted in Unlight
The Banners and Helms - Ai! It is the Numenoreans!
Look at their eyes - sea grey Elven in Starlight
They Call with Voice of Valinor's Sight

And despoiled the despoilers Sauron Vanquished
Yet still foreboding - Ar Pharazon is Coming
And Doom's Footsteps unhalting
Until The Witchking's Making

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Psssst! Come and play in the Password thread too!

let's checkit out

[Ivriniel]

I just had a thought - Cirdan must have viewed Tol Erestea from the Tower of Emyn Beriad. So, when Annatar came to Middle Earth, perhaps it was Cirdan's communications (there were other Palantiri in Valinor) or just viewing of the Uttermost West - even that would have been enough, 'extra' clarity of Sight True - to see through Annatar - just a thought.

Far forwards in time, then, when Galadriel and Gandalf bore the Palantir from Lindon to Valinor. If the Stones had sentience it must have had a very long time in Emyn Beriad alone - a merry journey then that Stone and glad to be going Home.


...thanx again for ur posts - who's gunna write one...

[Urwen]

So who is next?

[Pitchwife]

It seems I was, but I forgot all about it and I don't even have the beginning of an idea. I'd like to pass my turn on to Pervinca because the two of us solved the last one together, but if she doesn't want it or is unavailable anyone can go ahead.

[Pervinca Took]

A kind offer, Pitchwife, but I never seem to have ideas for riddles, although I like making up cryptic clues.

Would anyone like to write the next riddle?

[Urwen]

I could, and will steer clear of my two obsessions. Let me think of one.

Okay, here goes

Though we went through thick and thin
Our company had dissolved in this time frame
I, the last one standing,
Shall now take all the blame

I was afraid
Afraid of what might happen to our kin
And because of this worry
I have fallen into sin

Now, even if I am estranged,
And no longer within reach
I could at least rest knowing
That we have been avenged

Not too good, but I think it's pretty good for something made on spur-of-a-moment.

[Pervinca Took]

Is this Turin, Urwen? He always seemed to end up alone, and he certainly ended up with a lot of blood on his hands.

[Urwen]

Nope. I did say I will steer clear from my obsessions, which means no la familia or Tar-Miriel.

[Pervinca Took]

OK. I didn't know what your obsessions were when I posted.

The riddle's narrator sounds kind of dwarvish, I think.

[Urwen]

Nope, not a dwarf.

Hint: the narrator isn't actually the last one standing, but since the final member of group is somewhere else, he is the last one of those that were there.

Hope it isn't too confusing.

[Pervinca Took]

It makes me think of the son of Feanor left singing in regret and remorse ... was it Maglor?

Tar-Miriel is Numenorean, I think, not Finwe's first wife? So I am not in the territory of your two obsessions.

[Urwen]

Not that either, but you have the right book on that last one. Maglor is the last one for real.

Also, Urwen's interesting info: Hin Hurin are my la familia. The screen name I have is the birth name of one of them.

This has been Urwen's interesting info.

[Pervinca Took]

I know who Urwen is, Urwen.

[Urwen]

Good, you figured out my real identity, now can you figure out the identity of my mystery dude?

[Ivriniel]

Celebrimbor O Eregion?

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Ivriniel]

What about Mim?

[Urwen]

Right age, wrong answer.

[Galadriel55]

I'm thinking Gorlim, who gave in to Sauron fearing for his wife, and who posthumously let Beren know about his treason so that Beren would avenge the group...

[Urwen]

Yessire.

[Galadriel55]

When creativity runs low, I turn to cryptics. 'mfraid it's not too original, but should be fun to piece together.



My first is exactly the same as my fourth.
My second died out in the South, not the North.
My third and my fourth stand 'twixt hoops and their master,
Between bird and light, who saved lands from disaster.
My fifth is the colour of heroes and dragons.
My sixth is a fancy and glorified cabin.
Put them together, but that's not the answer:
My name that was given at birth's what you're after.


Happy riddling!

[Urwen]

My answer is Ereinion, better known by his second name, which fits the clues. However, I am not so sure.....'fancy, glorified cabin' and 'the bird of light' clues have me stuck....

[Nerwen]

It's been a while, Urwen. I wonder if G55 even remembers the answer?

[Urwen]

Well, if she doesn't confirm and deny it within 72 hours, then we can declare it open?

[Galadriel55]

I didn't remember it, but I was able to figure it out based on a vague memory of one of the clues.

You can't get the answer from the last lines. Ereinion does not fit any of the clues except that he has two names - but so do many othets. What are his six?

It's cryptic, which means you have to solve each line separately first before you can get the answer. Give it a shot!