Riddles in the Downs

[Morsul the Dark]

Ardent the thread is yours.

Like I said pury easy

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

So what was the name of the Witch King?

Well, The Witch-King I realise I wasn't very exact there, should have put more emphasis on the first part. I hope that did not completely take you off track. I merely meant to emphasise that the person is known by a name, or, well, a "name" as in, a word you can use to refer to it (as opposed to not being known at all). So not like "the guy who offers Frodo a drink" or "the sturdy dark-haired guy from the Guard of Minas Tirith", but some specific "name" - when you use it, everyone knows who you are talking about.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, The Witch-King I realise I wasn't very exact there...

Hmm, a fine bit of misdirection I'd say. Good riddling talk.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Ardent the thread is yours.

Like I said pury easy

Not sure what pury means but I get the gist. No, it was a good riddle 'cos my first thought was one of the banes: Isildur, Durin or Glaurung's.

I don't know if you'll see this one quickly or not. I think it's easy but I know the answer:

Left right, left right
Two are marching
Down up down up
In their searching.
Without hinges
Turning, turning
Without teacher
Learning, learning.
Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us.

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound,
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen.

Men, dwarves and Elves
Our treasures delve.
Red am I ‘neath Northern sky
I say to you; “twice red am I.”



._ ._. _.. . _. _

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

At least not on first sight, for sure. My first thoughts were something like "stars" (some particular ones? Borgil. But that would not do, since they are supposed to be two), or maybe some precious stones (again, I thought Silmarils, but there are three of them, and only one is performing some motion worth mentioning, the two others are lost somewhere). The "learning" part does not make sense with either of them, though, so I am pretty sure it must be something else.

Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us.

Is this supposed to mean that when I bow my head, I see the thing(s)? That would basically rule out the stars, unless one has eyes on the back of his head. It really looks like some sort of gems or somesuch (which one could see when looking at the ground). Especially with the "delving" part.

Though it says "our treasures delve", so we are not the treasures. "We" could be, for instance, caves in which treasures are found, but not the treasures themselves. Unless it is, again, completely metaphorical.

What confuses me also is that while at the start there are "two", in the last part, there is certainly only "one" (twice red am "I", not "we").

The most logical answer would be Sun (the two being Sun and Moon, or Arien and Tilion, or what have you), we know how they get up at the Gates of Morning and set down at the Doors of Night (Black Pit?). The leaves part could refer to the (dead) Two Trees out of whose blossom/fruit the Sun and Moon were made. Sun could be red, of course, why not, but what does not really fit there is the "learning" (unless it's there just to rhyme), the "delving" (Dwarves and Elves and Men don't really dig the Sun), and also the part I quoted above, with the eyes on the back of one's head...

And certainly does not explain the "twice red".

I guess the answer is elsewhere, but right now I can't think of anything more.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...What confuses me also is that while at the start there are "two", in the last part, there is certainly only "one" (twice red am "I", not "we")...

Well 'I' am speaking for 'us' my precious, and without 'me' you wouldn't know 'us'.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Hmm, a fine bit of misdirection I'd say. Good riddling talk.



Not sure what pury means but I get the gist. No, it was a good riddle 'cos my first thought was one of the banes: Isildur, Durin or Glaurung's.

I don't know if you'll see this one quickly or not. I think it's easy but I know the answer:

Left right, left right
Two are marching
Down up down up
In their searching.
Without hinges
Turning, turning
Without teacher
Learning, learning.
Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us.

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound,
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen.

Men, dwarves and Elves
Our treasures delve.
Red am I ‘neath Northern sky
I say to you; “twice red am I.”



._ ._. _.. . _. _

I meant "purty" like pretty easy

...As for your riddle. makes me think of waves and water...

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

...As for your riddle. makes me think of waves and water...

What is it that reminds you of water?
I can tell you it's not fishesess.


._ ._. _.. . _. _

[Morsul the Dark]

I know water isn't the answer just the whole first verse sounds like waves updown up down left righ left right, always learning always searching.

Water always finds the easiest path between two points aand can make its way anyware even into the depths of the earth.

and reflects the sky red sky at dusk and dawn equals red water...

Still trying to think of a real answer that was just my first impression is all.

[Galadriel55]

The first verse kind of reminds me of Frodo and Sam's twists and turns in the Emyn Muil. Walking in circles, doubling back the way they came, trying to find a path that would lead them to Mordor. And they're hobbits, so to see them you have to look down.

The other two verses don't fit at all, though.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The first verse kind of reminds me of Frodo and Sam's twists and turns in the Emyn Muil. Walking in circles, doubling back the way they came, trying to find a path that would lead them to Mordor. And they're hobbits, so to see them you have to look down.

The other two verses don't fit at all, though.

Ah, hobbitses are among the worst for looking down on us.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Ah, hobbitses are among the worst for looking down on us.

Hobbitses looking down on you? Then it can't be gems or precious metals. What else does a Hobbit look down on? Something one can "delve"?

Taters.



But really, no clue.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hobbitses looking down on you? Then it can't be gems or precious metals. What else does a Hobbit look down on? Something one can "delve"?

Taters.



But really, no clue.

No, not taters. Among Hobbits taters, like gardeners, are held in high esteem. There are always exceptions that test a rule, but in "my" case it is the exception you should look for.

[Galadriel55]

What else can be red? The Book of Westmarch!

Seriously, I have no more clue than Legate.

Edit: hey, twice red could be red and read. And to delve could mean to read its history (in which most of the hobbits are uninterested). And it's leaves are of course paper leaves. Maybe this guess is more serious than I first thought.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What else can be red? The Book of Westmarch!

Seriously, I have no more clue than Legate.

Edit: hey, twice red could be red and read. And to delve could mean to read its history (in which most of the hobbits are uninterested). And it's leaves are of course paper leaves. Maybe this guess is more serious than I first thought.

Indeed! So what about the "us"?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Indeed! So what about the "us"?

Left right, left right
Two are marching - I guess that's speaking about two eyes?
Down up down up
In their searching. - up and down a page, I guess
Without hinges
Turning, turning - huh? At first I thought this could be referring to pages that turn without hinges, but then I also thought it's talking about eyes...
Without teacher
Learning, learning. - right, since they read
Ever heads are bowing to us
Ever thus do you behold us. - unless the book is on the ceiling, this is pretty much accurate.

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound, - what on earth?
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen. - this part is more or less clear, refering to the leafs of a book.

Men, dwarves and Elves
Our treasures delve. - delve the books' knowledge?
Red am I ‘neath Northern sky
I say to you; “twice red am I.” - the read Red Book


So I suppose my answer is Books, or texts, but to be honest I'm very confused. Other than what I had in my previous post I'm still clueless.

[Mithalwen]

If you are right Gally, Moria is the Black Pit and where the Book of Marzarbul is found. Of course bound can refer to a book's binding as well as destiny.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

From Anor’s gloom with secrets found
To Black Pit where one is bound, - what on earth?
Among leaves that never were green
There we are seen. - this part is more or less clear, refering to the leafs of a book.
...


So I suppose my answer is Books, or texts, but to be honest I'm very confused. Other than what I had in my previous post I'm still clueless.

I'd say you got all the clues bar 2:
As you deduced, the whole first section is describing how we read a book (unless it's written in Hebrew or Chinese, but they're not ME writing systems).
As Mithalwen says The Black Pit is Moria and the Book of Marzarbul is found with its binding slashed and burned.
Faramir says that what brought Gandalf to Minas Anor was the treasury with its "...many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone, and leaves of silver and of gold, in divers characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them..."
After leaving the Long-Expected Party it was in these books that Gandalf learned of the fiery letters which Isildur saw on the Ring while it was hot, but he did not share this secret with anyone until arriving back at Bag End.

[Galadriel55]

Wait... so did I get the answer correctly?

If yes, I'll need a day or two to come up with something.

[Galadriel55]

Pshhh, I realized now that all this time I'e been reading Anor as Arnor.

Anyways, since I guess that makes me the next riddler, I came up with this mess that is either incredibly easy or incredibly obscure.


In three different places
We ride different steeds,
From three different races
We hail with great deeds.

I have not met you
For you've gone away;
Though one may have been here,
'Twas not in my day.

Both I and the other
Look just like the first:
Our eyes are afire
As we charge headfirst.

I and the other
Are kings of renown;
The first is a lord
Yet he wears not a crown.

To the foe rides the other;
I ride toward friends;
The first - once great traveller, -
Now stays in his lands.

Blue is other's colour
And my shield is gold.
Our horns call for battle
Like the first's did of old.

Happy riddling!

[Mithalwen]

Oromë, Fingolfin and Theoden.the latter were both kongs compared to first in their final batyles. Beautiful clue.

[Galadriel55]

Oh my! I've forgotten I even wrote that riddle!

But indeed the answer is that trio. Your turn, Mith!

[Mithalwen]

Hard act to follow...

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Hard act to follow...

Erm, Ulmo and vassals, Osse and Uinen

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Erm, Ulmo and vassals, Osse and Uinen

ummm... huh?

But thanks for reviving the thread!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ummm... huh?

But thanks for reviving the thread!

Oh, I read ur signature --

WE are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams

I responded to that as though a riddle - hahahah

[Ivriniel]

I'll revive with a riddle

Two Gems and Two Suns
Not Two Stories but Three
Where now is Aragorn with his White Tree

--what am I?--

I want, not only 'what I am', but a response that references the number of 'stories'.

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps the Elessar? Three stories of its origin (if my memory serves me right), and one of them involves the making of a second stone by Celebrimbor, hence the two stones.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps the Elessar? Three stories of its origin (if my memory serves me right), and one of them involves the making of a second stone by Celebrimbor, hence the two stones.

YES! That's well good enough. *High Five*

There's a discrepancy in UT about the story, where text reads words to the effect "and not even the wise know which is true".

Under one, Olorin (and his name is used that way, to imply, perhaps, some pre-Istari visit to Middle Earth), where he met with Galadriel in Amon Lanc (before it was Dol Guldur) and he bore her what was implied to be that stone crafted by a smith of Gondolin, Enerdhil, gifted to Idril, then to Earendil, and borne unto the uttermost west. Apparently, Gandalf bore it back to give to Galadriel, to comfort her during her labours. In that story, for a time, the stone did make the Elven harbour in Beleriand 'Valinor-ish' (but in the Silmarillion, this is attributed to the presence of the Silmaril). In the second story, Celebrimbor, smitten by Galadriel, makes the Elessar, as a gift for her labours, before the Mirdain make The Three. In this story, the stone does not have as much joo joo (and text notes that was due to Melkor's influence, from The Void, where he affected the Sun, and so, it was not 'as new' as of old, limiting the Elessar's potency).

"Not Two Stories, but Three"

1. As told in UT, with two renditions, without the reconciliation with
2. The third part of the two stories, in The Silmarillion--where we're given the idea that it was The Silmaril that greened the Elven Harbour, not the Elessar, and so, a means to resolve story discrepancies. AND - Aragorn's Elessar, were it that crafted by Enerdhil--would have greened the environs around Minas Tirith far more fully than his Elessar apparently did.....

So--unusual for Tolkien--TWO in text stories, with a deliberate variation "not even the wise know" and the third 'story' --ours-- which is the interpretations of the Tomes and what they reveal out-of-text/story

[Galadriel55]

Aw, darn. Now I have to come up with something clever.

Give me a couple days...

[Galadriel55]

My lord, my lord, how fairest thou?
What crown now sits on your high brow?
Do you live in a good accord
With your own life, my lord?

Alas, my lady, I was maimed,
My land is in decay.
Though not at me their arrows aimed,
They struck me down the same.

My sight was halved, but I could see
What ridicule they've made of me.
Their words are foul and shady,
But I bear them, my lady.

But who am I to so complain?
I see you've suffered no less pain.
They may as well have struck you dead
And put a monster in your stead.

Aye, aye, my lord, that monster's foul,
It's teeth do gleam so when it scowls,
At night it twists its leering head.
It looks like it is living dead.

We both are gone, we both are torn,
But one day we may be reborn,
And in a good land once more dwell,
Although we different flowers smell.

My lady, you're remembered well -
I speak now to your memory -
But I alone in silence dwell,
And who remembers me?

Please answer all the parts of the riddle (or as many as you can, with a proper explanation). Happy riddling!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My lord, my lord, how fairest thou?
What crown now sits on your high brow?
Do you live in a good accord
With your own life, my lord?

Alas, my lady, I was maimed,
My land is in decay.
Though not at me their arrows aimed,
They struck me down the same.

My sight was halved, but I could see
What ridicule they've made of me.
Their words are foul and shady,
But I bear them, my lady.

But who am I to so complain?
I see you've suffered no less pain.
They may as well have struck you dead
And put a monster in your stead.

Aye, aye, my lord, that monster's foul,
It's teeth do gleam so when it scowls,
At night it twists its leering head.
It looks like it is living dead.

We both are gone, we both are torn,
But one day we may be reborn,
And in a good land once more dwell,
Although we different flowers smell.

My lady, you're remembered well -
I speak now to your memory -
But I alone in silence dwell,
And who remembers me?

Please answer all the parts of the riddle (or as many as you can, with a proper explanation). Happy riddling!

I'm really not at all sure, but I don't know why Morgoth and Sauron come to mind. The crown on the brow - silmarils on the iron crown. Then that stuff about lands in decay. Mordor. And halved sight, seems like the Lidless Eye with the Palantir. The stuff about the undead and all the Necromancy of Sauron and then funny smelling (stinky) flowers in good lands. "seem fair but feel foul". Morgoth in the Void, who promises to return for the Last Battle.

[Galadriel55]

Good guess, but no.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

And halved sight, seems like the Lidless Eye with the Palantir.

Would his site not be doubled with the Palantir?


The answer is more obscure than the two major villains in the history of ME. Significantly more obscure, but not ridiculously so. And remember, one of them is called Lady.

[Mithalwen]

I think one might be the statue of the king on the journey to the crossroads whose head has been replaced by a stone with a single eye and is covered with orcish graffitti. His proper head has a crown of flowers. For the other, a lot fits with the description of Minas Morgul, the once lovely Minas Ithil, which has a tower whose top turns, described as ghostly, undead and with putrid smelling flowers.

Many remember Minas Ithil but the king is unnamed. Only thing that doesn't really fit is Lady. Though I think cities are sometimes referred to as she.

[Ivriniel]

Only 'Lady' i can think of is Galadriel. Somehow Celeborn and Galadriel don't fit. "Lady" -- Goldberry if I stretch it. All that stuff about 'maiming' could be hueing of trees and limiting of Bombadil's realm.

Eyes and sight halved? No idea at all.

Manwe's sight comes to mind for the reference to vision. But, I don't recall it ever being halved or limited, unless I stretch it - say the Straight Road and his vision and so on. Sounds ridiculous - hahaha and I'm chuckling as I'm writing.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think one might be the statue of the king on the journey to the crossroads whose head has been replaced by a stone with a single eye and is covered with orcish graffitti. His proper head has a crown of flowers. For the other, a lot fits with the description of Minas Morgul, the once lovely Minas Ithil, which has a tower whose top turns, described as ghostly, undead and with putrid smelling flowers.

Many remember Minas Ithil but the king is unnamed. Only thing that doesn't really fit is Lady. Though I think cities are sometimes referred to as she.

That's the one! Or the two. Whatever. That's spot on! Well done!

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Eyes and sight halved? No idea at all.

The king statue had two eyes, but his head was replaced with a boulder with only one eye.

[Ivriniel]

Eowyn. Frosty. Like a flower frozen by frost. before it wilts at the thaw.

[Mithalwen]

Huh? I though5 I had solved this? Will get my clue up over weekend probably.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Huh? I though5 I had solved this? Will get my clue up over weekend probably.

[Mithalwen]

Everyone knows me.
Last and first was I.
Nobody knows me.
Noble light on high.

Memory lingers;
The song of the singers,
The rings on other fingers.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Everyone knows me.
Last and first was I.
Nobody knows me.
Noble light on high.

Memory lingers;
The song of the singers,
The rings on other fingers.

wasn't that tom bombadil (last first) or else eru