Riddles in the Downs

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, so here it comes.

"'Majesty!'- I'd greet
you if we should meet
though long before me
your realm seemed to be."

"Majesty, thou bold!
What thou hadst was gold
but tell me, what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

"Majesty! My throne
in cold, dark, and stone
but of thine who knows?
And who were thy foes?"

"Majesty, it's late:
Black pit is your fate
as it has been said
But I am long dead."

Enjoy riddling

[Ardent]

Tricksy it is. The verses might be alternating between two speakers in dialogue, or they could be a monologue...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Tricksy it is. The verses might be alternating between two speakers in dialogue, or they could be a monologue...

Hm hmm hm. I was wondering whether to write it there or not, or whether to write it later if people wanted clarification or hint... but I can start with it, because it was meant to be the point of the riddle to identify the two subjects, and it would be pretty confusing - so yes, there are two subjects in the riddle. The 1st, 3rd and 5th belong to one, the 2nd and 4th to the other.

[Ardent]

The unknown warrior whose body was found on the Paths of the Dead fits in part, but I don't know if he was a king. The king famous for his spear was Gilgalad. The latter metaphorically fell into darkness "in Mordor where the shadows are" while the former litterally fell in darkness.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

The unknown warrior whose body was found on the Paths of the Dead fits in part, but I don't know if he was a king. The king famous for his spear was Gilgalad. The latter metaphorically fell into darkness "in Mordor where the shadows are" while the former litterally fell in darkness.

Not bad, and certainly could be argued for the case, but not what I had in mind. How would you explain the third part? (And the question asked just before it? Note that the third part is an answer to "tell me, what's there / the two of us share?" That's very important, actually.)

The dead guy at the Paths of Dead was Baldor, son of Brego, as far as I am aware, he was a prince-to-be of the Mark, but he never actually lived to get the title.

[Morsul the Dark]

I keep thinking I have the first person but the long before me rules out most ideas...

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...How would you explain the third part? (And the question asked just before it? ...

Not Baldor then, if he was never a king.

...what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

Sam's song of Gilgalad begins "of him the harpers sadly sing", which is pretty much in the way of piercing the heart.
The army of the Dead had spears "like winter thickets on a misty night" (Legolas), but then they would not be Baldor's army.
It is unclear whether the Dead had a King, I thought Peter Jackson invented that character. I read the phrase "the coming of the King of the Dead" as a reference to Aragorn, but he would not fit your verse because he is not 'long dead'.

That leaves me considering other dead kings of unknown throne and enemies... hmm

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Not Baldor then, if he was never a king.

...what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

Sam's song of Gilgalad begins "of him the harpers sadly sing", which is pretty much in the way of piercing the heart.
The army of the Dead had spears "like winter thickets on a misty night" (Legolas), but then they would not be Baldor's army.
It is unclear whether the Dead had a King, I thought Peter Jackson invented that character. I read the phrase "the coming of the King of the Dead" as a reference to Aragorn, but he would not fit your verse because he is not 'long dead'.

That leaves me considering other dead kings of unknown throne and enemies... hmm

Just keep thinking, then

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I keep thinking I have the first person but the long before me rules out most ideas...

I'm curious to hear it, maybe if you think of some way to make it fit, you can then present it

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

All right, so here it comes.

"'Majesty!'- I'd greet
you if we should meet
though long before me
your realm seemed to be."

"Majesty, thou bold!
What thou hadst was gold
but tell me, what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

"Majesty! My throne
in cold, dark, and stone
but of thine who knows?
And who were thy foes?"

"Majesty, it's late:
Black pit is your fate
as it has been said
But I am long dead."

Enjoy riddling

I feel the indented could be Thorin's father or grandfather(sorry forgetting name) He ended up in the deep dungeons of Sauron(Black pit) his throne is empty. But his army would have axes not spears....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I feel the indented could be Thorin's father or grandfather(sorry forgetting name) He ended up in the deep dungeons of Sauron(Black pit) his throne is empty. But his army would have axes not spears....

Well, at least until you figure out who would the second one be, and if they would make any sense put together, you won't know

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least until you figure out who would the second one be, and if they would make any sense put together, you won't know

I have no idea why but reading this made me think of this clip

I'll keep thinking.

[Morsul the Dark]

I wonder if Majesty really means King. Like it could be something Majestic...

Ormal, where is his throne? he doesn't have one...
but then who would Ormals "men be?" branches instead of spears? I wish they could pierce.
What he had was golden

That would make Theoden the other he is dead... his throne was cold and dark especially under the influence of wormtongue.

That seems stretching some of the clues though.

[Nerwen]

Well, Morsul, knowing Legate there's probably some kind of trick to it– but that one does sound like a stretch to me.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I wonder if Majesty really means King. Like it could be something Majestic...

THORIN!!!


I seem to be quite fixated on the first person being one of the Barrow-wights. Long dead, and having gold, and throwing spears (at unsuspecting hobbits like Merry), don't have specific foes as such, just kinda kill everyone...

Now, the second person reminds me very much of Thror, as Morsul said - stone throne, black pit=Dark Chasm=Moria - but some things don't fit, and he definitely came along after the Wights. 

So my guess would therefore be a Wight and Turgon, who came to the Nirnaeth at the end of a night with an army of spears behind him. (but cold dark throne?)

[Nerwen]

So–

Both parties are rulers (whether literal or metaphorical remains to be seen).

Both have something in common.

They are not contemporaries.

"A"
–is "bold" (may or may not be significant).
–is associated with gold in some way.
–is long since dead.
–his/her/its enemies and realm are unknown. This may mean Legate wants us to guess, or it may mean all this has "now" been forgotten.
Very little information about "A", really.

"B"
–was around long before "A".
–was involved in nocturnal battles involving spears; something about this is what A and B have in common.
–his/her/its throne is "in cold, dark and stone". I'm not sure what that means– maybe just that "B's realm is now abandoned. But could mean "subterranean".
–ultimate fate was a "black pit". (Moria? Or does it mean "died in a dungeon" or something similar?)

Interestingly, it seems there are three distinct "bands" of time referred to– the "present", the past ("A"'s time) and the deeper past ("B's" time). If the "present" is the real present, "A" having died "long ago" doesn't rule anyone out, and is basically meaningless. If, however, it refers to some time actually written about by Tolkien– most likely the late Third Age, then it does narrow it down– for instance, "A" then could not be Theoden.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by G55

So my guess would therefore be a Wight and Turgon, who came to the Nirnaeth at the end of a night with an army of spears behind him.

What do they have in common, though? Legate says that's very important.

EDIT: Oh, you just mean, using spears? That also seems a stretch to me. And would the "if just mine could" part refer just to a spear?

[Nerwen]

Hmmn... No, I don't think Turgon will fit either. His throne may have been in Gondolin, the "Hidden Rock"– but he didn't end in a "black pit".

But that does have me thinking about First Age kings. Could "B"– the indented party– be Finrod Felagund? That would tick all the boxes, anyway. (The "spears by night" part would then refer to the Fen of Serech incident in the Dagor Bragollach.)

[Ardent]

I think the first speaker is an unnamed king of Cardolan.

When Merry is awakened by Tom Bombadil in the Barrow Downs he is wearing a gold circlet and says: “ The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart!”

The King of Carn Dum was the Witch King of Angmar, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul. After defeating Arnor he sent wights to inhabit Cardolan, making it a place of terror. I would expect the second speaker to be him because:
1/ his origin was in the Second Age and Angmar only arose in the Third.
2/ Angmar was cold, dark and mountainous
3/ his fate was foretold by Glofindel upon the destruction of Angmar.
4/ wanting justice his victim would have him speared through the heart.

The Barrow Downs remained and the ghost of the dead king was still there with the wights when the Hobbits were rescued by Tom. He took the dead king's blade and gave it to Merry, who used it to stab the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields.

[Nerwen]

I think you must have it, Ardent. That would be the most– what shall I say– satisfying solution so far, because the spear-part would really mean something, not just "A had a spear and B had a spear too".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Some very, very, very, very, very good points raised here. I am impressed, honestly Especially when it comes to Nerwen's systematic analysis and Ardent's thoughts.

Some very nice brainstorming you have here. But brainstorming, so far, is all it is. I am still missing a clear "A is this, B is that" - answer

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ardent

I think the first speaker is an unnamed king of Cardolan.

Yes, that's the wight I had in mind.


As for the second speaker, Finrod definitely fits, as Nerwen said, except that the spears weren't his but Barahir's.

Thinking aloud, the throne is in cold, dark, and stone - meaning that it does not have to be abandoned or subterranean, but surrounded by the said things (eg in stone walls). Then, "it's late". What? And "black pit is your fate" doesn't necessarily mean he perished in a pit, it just has a big part to play in his life. And there is some sort of prophecy or foresight about it.

I think it's also interesting that the first person preaks with "you", but the second uses "thou". What does this mean? Well, one thing is clear - that I should stop analyzing the riddle linguistically and start coming up with solutions.



Anyways, now I'm wondering if the second King in question might be sort of outside the box, someone that's not an Elf/Man/Dwarf. Therefore my next guess would be the King of Cardolan Wight and Morgoth.

Morgoth doesn't really fit the spear part (and doesn't really fit at all, except with a stretch of black pit into the Void and for the throne), but I won't calm down until I get him out of my system.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes, that's the wight I had in mind.

I was thinking wight at first, but when I re-read the story and its background I realised that the dead king was a ghost, and that the wights were servants of the enemy. When Frodo wakes in the barrow he sees his friends arrayed as men of old but with a long sword laid over them. The wight is the creature whose hand creeps around the corner.

Regarding 'you' and 'thou': JRR uses 'thee/thou/thine' to indicate those races who have a more archaic manner of speech. The dead king lived in a later age than the Witch King so the terms are appropriate. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it though.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think you must have it, Ardent. That would be the most– what shall I say– satisfying solution so far, because the spear-part would really mean something, not just "A had a spear and B had a spear too".

My interpretation rather hinges on the word 'just':

...spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
Pierce hearts like yours do.

It could mean "if only" but I'm taking it to mean "if there is any justice". Riddles rely on this kind of ambiguity, but I may yet be barking up the wrong tree.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ardent

I was thinking wight at first, but when I re-read the story and its background I realised that the dead king was a ghost, and that the wights were servants of the enemy. When Frodo wakes in the barrow he sees his friends arrayed as men of old but with a long sword laid over them. The wight is the creature whose hand creeps around the corner.

Ah, gotcha. I must have been confusing them.

Originally Posted by Ardent

Regarding 'you' and 'thou': JRR uses 'thee/thou/thine' to indicate those races who have a more archaic manner of speech. The dead king lived in a later age than the Witch King so the terms are appropriate. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it though.

Not necessarily, but possibly. (If you're interested, here's a thread about it)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by G55

As for the second speaker, Finrod definitely fits, as Nerwen said, except that the spears weren't his but Barahir's.

But Barahir was Finrod's vassal, as I recall, so by extension they're also "his" men. That was my reasoning, anyway– but it doesn't sound like it is that.

Originally Posted by Ardent
Regarding 'you' and 'thou': JRR uses 'thee/thou/thine' to indicate those races who have a more archaic manner of speech. The dead king lived in a later age than the Witch King so the terms are appropriate. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it though.

Or it could indicate the relative status of the two.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am sort of wondering if I should comment at all, or let you do your brainstorming regardless where it takes you Your choice - if you want me to comment on everything, or whether you prefer to first "brainstorm" and only when you say "okay, I think this is the answer, because..." I should respond why it's wrong

I can say this though - don't stretch it. My riddles tend to be often more straightforward than people think they are. If you saw any of my previous ones, I keep saying that every time, and yet every time people are imagining that I am a) speaking metaphorically b) about Inglor Felagund's fifteenth cousin, c) calling him a pineapple, whereas what I am talking about actually, is the pineapple Bilbo Baggins had for breakfast.

And one more thing I could tell you for sure - both the subjects of the riddle are specific, they have their own names (so not "unnamed king of Cardolan" or such).

[Morsul the Dark]

Wait wait wait I think I've got the first speaker!

Rereading the hobbit and stumbled across:
"From that the talk turned to the horde itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below: the spears made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead),"

King Bladorthin

He never got his spears certainly would wish he had them. We know nothing of who his armies' foes would be or where he was from.

The second could be Ingwe

Now Ingwelead the vanya famous for their spears. He never returned from Valinor so his throne would be cold and dark.

but what they share is harder ro guess...


"'Majesty!'- I'd greet
you if we should meet
though long before me
your realm seemed to be."

"Majesty, thou bold!
What thou hadst was gold
but tell me, what's there
the two of us share?"

"Your men bring to fight
their spears in the night
If just mine could, too,
pierce hearts like yours do!"

"Majesty! My throne
in cold, dark, and stone
but of thine who knows?
And who were thy foes?"

"Majesty, it's late:
Black pit is your fate
as it has been said
But I am long dead."

[Morsul the Dark]

Black pit doesn't fit Ingwe though....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now that deserves an applause, Morsul. Yes, the first speaker indeed is Bladorthin. Now I was sure that will be the toughest part for everone. As you can see, with such an obscure character, it was pretty difficult for me to make a riddle only about him, so I decided to find some other subject that could have at least a couple of things in common with him.

Now, of course, the other subject is not Ingwe, and you rightly state one reason why. So that still remains to be guessed. Good luck

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now that deserves an applause, Morsul. Yes, the first speaker indeed is Bladorthin. Now I was sure that will be the toughest part for everone. As you can see, with such an obscure character, it was pretty difficult for me to make a riddle only about him, so I decided to find some other subject that could have at least a couple of things in common with him.

Now, of course, the other subject is not Ingwe, and you rightly state one reason why. So that still remains to be guessed. Good luck

Sweet. Now onto the other. Thank You!

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

... onto the other...

So the other has at least two things in common with the known character. All we know is:
"... the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead), each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were never delivered or paid for..."

Possible links are:

1. spears
2. something forged, maybe more than once
3. something inlaid with gold
4. something never delivered
5. something never paid for
6. something found in the hoard of Smaug.
   
   

Smaug was probably responsible for the non-delivery of the spears, so our mystery guest is [7] long dead or long born pre-Smaug.

The subject is also fated to 'Black pit' (Moria? The Void?),
and something has been said about that fate,
has a throne (or final resting place?) in cold, dark stone
has some majestic quality (Royalty? The first of a type?)
has a proper name, rather than a title alone.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am sort of wondering if I should comment at all, or let you do your brainstorming regardless where it takes you Your choice - ...

I'm not sure how I'd handle being in your shoes either. I'm content however you choose to respond. It's good to know you're still keeping an eye on the thread though.

.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I think I can just do the thing I do usually, and comment at least in a general way on whatever is posted here. I have said already before that earlier on, lots of very good remarks have been made earlier on this thread by some people. You might also try to find gaps in your own reasoning in there.

Ardent, your post, for instance, is a good summary, certainly making good effort to create a system in it, I should point out only that somewhere in your post, there is one assumption you make which, if you read the riddle properly from start to the end, does not really exactly reflect the whole truth. (That was very diplomatically phrased, but that's exactly what it is Find for yourself. Or just ignore it and try different approaches, whichever you prefer.)

That's not to say that everything besides that one assumption is correct, but the thing I'm pointing out it something you might realise if you check with the riddle - i.e. should be able to figure out with the information you have. But again, don't spend a day trying to look for it, it isn't crucial that you get that thing right (it concerns only one of the many ways you can get to the correct answer). But if you do, it might bring some interesting revelations. Hm, I could also mention that on top of that, the topic has been touched on here earlier on.

I hope I managed to confuse you enough with this post. Apologies

[Morsul the Dark]

Thorin doesn't fit the riddle but fun fACT Gandalf was originally the name of thorin... Bladorthin was Gandalf's original name...

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Ardent

I think the first speaker is an unnamed king of Cardolan.

When Merry is awakened by Tom Bombadil in the Barrow Downs he is wearing a gold circlet and says: “ The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart!”

The King of Carn Dum was the Witch King of Angmar, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul. After defeating Arnor he sent wights to inhabit Cardolan, making it a place of terror. I would expect the second speaker to be him because:
1/ his origin was in the Second Age and Angmar only arose in the Third.
2/ Angmar was cold, dark and mountainous
3/ his fate was foretold by Glofindel upon the destruction of Angmar.
4/ wanting justice his victim would have him speared through the heart.

The Barrow Downs remained and the ghost of the dead king was still there with the wights when the Hobbits were rescued by Tom. He took the dead king's blade and gave it to Merry, who used it to stab the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields.

Actually The King of Carn fits the second speaker pretty well.

Blathorthin is A
King of Carn is B

both their armies are obliterated and gone.
They were both promised something not delivered. Spears or Power(the ring)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Actually The King of Carn fits the second speaker pretty well.

Blathorthin is A
King of Carn is B

both their armies are obliterated and gone.
They were both promised something not delivered. Spears or Power(the ring)

By "King of Carn" you mean "The King of Carn Dum", i.e. that would be the Witch-King of Angmar? Do I understand it correctly?

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

By "King of Carn" you mean "The King of Carn Dum", i.e. that would be the Witch-King of Angmar? Do I understand it correctly?

Yeah. sorry bout that

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I just wanted to clarify, because that of course is correct Nice job, Morsul! And, of course, means you can prepare a new riddle for us.

A clarification of the riddle, in case somebody was still wondering about various things:

I wanted to use Bladorthin as an answer. But as you can see, the only thing we know about him is summed up in the single sentence from The Hobbit, where it is said that in the dragon's hoard there were, among other things

the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead), each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were never delivered or paid for

So I thought "okay, I need to have a second speaker, who has something in common with Bladorthin, so that I can put them both into one riddle".

And that basically had to be a) a King, b) whose men were using spears. (I could have also used someone who had something to do with Dwarfs, but since the spears were such a prominent thing in Bladorthin's case, I wanted to shift my focus there, because I was sure people wouldn't remember Bladorthin as "random king who had dealings with Dwarves", but perhaps they could recall the spears, since that was the item in question.)

The missing link I found in the hallucinations by Merry at the barrow:

The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!

I was actually somewhat surprised that some of you were quoting this really early (G55 was the one who specifically mentioned it and Ardent later quoted it in full), yet then somehow it became completely forgotten. (Not to speak of that the "unnamed king" was rather unnecessary, when the "king of Carn Dûm in the land of Angmar" would have been much easier train of thought... or so I'd think...)

The rest of the riddle narrows down what we know about the two Kings: the time and the place. About the Witch-King, we know (at least as long as he was a King) that he dwelt in Carn Dûm in the land of Angmar, which is in the north (cold), in the mountains (stone) and pretty evil place for sure (dark). As for Bladorthin, we of course have no idea where he was from.

But we can figure out something about when he lived. Note the shifts in the time, which was something Nerwen briefly touched earlier. The first part of the riddle mentions that "long before me, your realm seemed to be". If you check the dates, Angmar has been defeated by the time the Dwarves of Erebor established their kingdom. But the Witch-King himself outlived (or "outdeathed") Bladorthin by quite some time. Hence, in the third part, you find in fact a contradictory statement: by the time the Witch-King meets his fate, "I am long dead". Had somebody noticed this, it might have also possibly helped to figure out something was wrong with the guy who first has a realm "long before" the second guy and then still meets his fate only after the second guy is "long dead".

I think I do not need to mention the prophecy referring to the Witch-King's demise; the "black pit" refers to the Void, or as Gandalf put it: "Go back to the abyss prepared for you!"

So, I must say, yes, I was afraid the riddle was again somewhat obscure (especially Bladorthin), but I was sort of hoping that somebody will recognize the reference to Merry's "possessed vision". And then I just hoped somebody will know Bladorthin. He's sort of an oddity, so there was the chance somebody would just know

But, I think this cooperative brainstorming was really nice to follow here, and I hope you enjoyed it... now, off to Morsul.

[Morsul the Dark]

Wow, that's awesome!
many thanks to Ardent!
I'm not very good at making these so here's a really really easy one.

I am know in two parts
The first would say I am the Monarchs'
The second would say I ruin evil's plans
Perchance these clues plant a thought in you?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...And one more thing I could tell you for sure - both the subjects of the riddle are specific, they have their own names (so not "unnamed king of Cardolan" or such).

So what was the name of the Witch King?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Wow, that's awesome!
many thanks to Ardent!
I'm not very good at making these so here's a really really easy one.

I am know in two parts
The first would say I am the Monarchs'
The second would say I ruin evil's plans
Perchance these clues plant a thought in you?

You're welcome.

Kingsfoil?