Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

Great job indeed, Azaghal! That was absolutely amazing!

I can't believe I've been walking around it in circles for weeks. I have considered the reveal part to be a reference to "the clouds burst", and I thought of Smaug's attack as the night, but it didn't make sense because I never thought that I is the thrush. Azaghal deserves all the praise for getting it.

[Azaghâl]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes and yes indeed!! That was absolutely amazing job, Azaghâl! You deserve applause for solving this riddle after what seemed a bit like lost case.

Not so amazing, as I had the first and second wrong. The Moon revealing the hidden letters crossed my mind as an interpretation of the skies unveiling mysteries, but by the time I was really convinced it was about the keyhole I had totally forgotten that the letters did mention the thrush. So, taking only from the scene I quoted, the first had to be Bilbo and then he could not be the second so it had to be Balin.

I was concerned that my interpretation did not cover everything in your riddle but now it all makes sense. Just give me until tomorrow and I should come up with something.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Azaghâl

Not so amazing, as I had the first and second wrong. The Moon revealing the hidden letters crossed my mind as an interpretation of the skies unveiling mysteries, but by the time I was really convinced it was about the keyhole I had totally forgotten that the letters did mention the thrush. So, taking only from the scene I quoted, the first had to be Bilbo and then he could not be the second so it had to be Balin.

I was concerned that my interpretation did not cover everything in your riddle but now it all makes sense. Just give me until tomorrow and I should come up with something.

Well, these are minor details, really. As I said, all these things about who is the first or second are supposed to be "helpers" (and they are variable, as long as it fits). The main thing is the thrush.

[Azaghâl]

Well here is my feeble attempt, certainly not as good as yours, and probably too easy. While I enjoy immensely guessing at riddles, writing one is a nighmare, anyway here it is.



When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Azaghâl

Well here is my feeble attempt, certainly not as good as yours, and probably too easy. While I enjoy immensely guessing at riddles, writing one is a nighmare, anyway here it is.



When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

see I was thinking Gandalf until the last verser which makes me think Aragorn...

See Gandalf fits in with Thorin's father locked away hope lost
finding his way over the mountain un the waters and highest twer the balrog pursuit
to come and bring back friend to friend lover to lover kinsman to kinsman could be any number of folks

Aragorn however clinches the army of the dead... fulfill their oath and be done...

will keep thinking

[Galadriel55]

I am thinking it's Luthien releasing the prisoners of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. The waters don't make sense, though, and allowing to give voice? Hmm...

[Azaghâl]

Sorry, Morsul the Dark, it is neither Aragorn nor Gandalf.

Galadriel55, you are very much nearer the spot, though the "I" is not Luthien. I could comment more on your answer but I am afraid it would give it away. Thanks for your praises in your previous post, by the way.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Azaghâl

Galadriel55, you are very much nearer the spot, though the "I" is not Luthien.

If not Luthien, then my guess is Finrod Felagund.


When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

In the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

"I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman", and Beren cannot follow him because he is a Man.

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Not sure... I mean, yes, it is because of him that Beren and Luthien met again, and the kinsman could be interpreted as him joining Finarfin in Aman, but can't see a friend?

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released

All the prisoners of Tol-in-Gaurhoth are released when Luthien takes over. However, only Beren "gives voice" before he is released.

[Azaghâl]

Good try but it is not Felagund and while both Beren and Luhien are indeed mentioned in the riddle, they are not the answer either.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally Posted by Azaghâl

When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

This is a really good riddle!

I want to say either Maedhros or even the Silmarils. Even Feanor screams at me, mostly because of the kinsman parts and how the Noldor were linked to the Silmarils.

Unless this is a hobbit/lotr riddle, I fear to be going in the wrong direction

[Azaghâl]

None of your three guesses is the answer, but I have to say that Maedhros is indeed mentioned in the riddle.

[Galadriel55]

Is it Thorondor?

When light and hope are long forgotten
Behind closed doors, in deep dungeons and chains of iron,

Everything to do with Thangorodrim

Only I can find a way
Over the mountains or under wide waters and even to the highest tower

This is true, unless Elves, Men, and Dwarves can somehow grow wings

To come and bring back
Friend to friend, lover to lover and kinsman to kinsman,

Fingon and Maedhros, Beren and Luthien, ...Hurin and Huor?

Allowing the tortured souls
To give voice one last time before they are released.

Now that's still a bit puzzling...

[Azaghâl]

No, it is not Thorondor, but now that you have the lovers, Beren and Luthien, and the kinsmen, Maedhros and Fingon, you only need to find the friends, who are not Húrin and Huor or I would have written 'brother to brother'.

The "I" should be made clear then, I think.



EDIT: the last two verses have been deliberately phrased so as to be puzzling, because I was afraid the riddle would be too easy.

[Nerwen]

Could the "I" be, not a person, but something abstract like "song" or "music"? The whole would then refer to various incidents where characters found each other through it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Could the "I" be, not a person, but something abstract like "song" or "music"? The whole would then to various incidents where characters found each other through it.

Ah, and then the friends are Frodo and Sam. Brilliant!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ah, and then the friends are Frodo and Sam.

That's who I was thinking of, yes- but of course I could be completely out anyway.

[Azaghâl]

Brilliant indeed, Nerwen, music, or songs, is the answer, though Galadriel55 has found the three couples. The descriptions were supposed to be taken litterally for each one of them. Friend behind closed doors in the highest tower, lover in deep dungeons under wide waters and kinsman enchained in the mountains.

So I guess the thread is Nerwen's now, though I know you used to be terrible at this.

[Nerwen]

Sister, craft-sister,
Never to meet;
Thou with thy hands laboured,
I with my feet.

Each of us, sister,
Our loves wound or slay.
Thou seekest darkness;
I end the day.

Thou a son hadst whom legend keeps;
A daughter was mine,
Yet never shall peace be
'Twixt thy kin and mine.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Sister, craft-sister,
Never to meet;
Thou with thy hands laboured,
I with my feet.

Each of us, sister,
Our loves wound or slay.
Thou seekest darkness;
I end the day.

Thou a son hadst whom legend keeps;
A daughter was mine,
Yet never shall peace be
'Twixt thy kin and mine.

The more the read this, the more I love it for its beauty and hate it for making me think.

Eru and Morgoth jumped out at me first, then the Moon and the Sun. The sister part is what gets me, if it is literal or figurative.

[Morsul the Dark]

I keep thinking Arwen is one of them....

[Nerwen]

Gil, the "sister" part is figurative; the rest is more-or-less literal. In a broader sense, though, the whole thing is fanciful, as the speaker would never have actually said all this to the other party.

Morsul- no, it is not Arwen, but you may be on the right track, depending on why you think that.

[Mithalwen]

I thought thethou was Miriel noted for her embroidery as well as her deathwish and famous son.

Struggling with the feet of the other!

[Nerwen]

Ah! Keep going, Mith.

The feet are very important.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Gil, the "sister" part is figurative; the rest is more-or-less literal. In a broader sense, though, the whole thing is fanciful, as the speaker would never have actually said all this to the other party.

Morsul- no, it is not Arwen, but you may be on the right track, depending on why you think that.

well craft-sister Arwen in seen sewing then her son... wow drawing a blank on his name. becomes the nexct king that's why so I'll keep thinking.

I was thinking along the lines of art like the feet belong to a dancer...

[Mithalwen]

Feanor had plenty of enemies so that doesn't limit the field. Daughters are a bit ther on the ground. ?. Ponders

[Gil-Galad]

Miriel and Thingol perhaps? Thingol's kin fought bitterly against Feanor's kin, and Thingol did have a daughter.

[Nerwen]

No, not Thingol.

Note: "Kin" is used in a very broad sense.

[Urwen]

Something tells me that the speaker is Nimloth and her 'sister' is Idril. Her daughter, Elwing and Idril's son, Earendil, gave birth to hope in the future and her and Idril's grandson was involved in successful destruction of their enemy's successor, Sauron. Of course, Noldor and Sindar were dead-set enemies, but this kinship reconciled them.

[Nerwen]

No, it isn't Nimloth.. In case I haven't been clear, Mith has already got half of it- the "sister" is Miriel.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I still keep thinking that the other person is Galadriel. Because I think I still can't come up with anything better, I will reveal my reasoning, maybe somebody else will conclude something based on it - the "labour with feet" seems to me like allusion to travel, thus, the Flight of Noldor, obviously, and probably the "no peace between kin" means Fëanor and either the whole second line, or Finarfin's house, anyway. Galadriel had a daughter, of course.

[Nerwen]

No, not Galadriel either, though that would indeed fit most of it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm... all right. Just in case (but maybe my reasoning will help somebody, provided it is on the right track), how much relevant is the second part? Because THAT is what I can't figure out at all. No clue whatsoever what it could refer to.

ERM! I JUST REALISED! OKAY!

IS IT UNGOLIANT???

Craft = weaver... ends the day...

[Ardent]

Miriel means emroideress. Only Ungoliant and her children spin with their feet.

[Nerwen]

Legate– yes, it is Ungoliant.

I was wondering if anyone was going to get it...

[Morsul the Dark]

Goog job legate... So Arwen's sewing was sort of kind of somewhat in the vicinity of kind of near the ballparkish area...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Legate– yes, it is Ungoliant.

I was wondering if anyone was going to get it...

Well, truth be told, it was really difficult. Of course in hindsight, neither of the answers is that obscure. But I guess it was the use of the word "kin" that kept returning me to think both the "persons" in question are Elves, what more, likely Noldor, and also the fact that I purposefully ignored the middle part, because it made no sense to me whatsoever.

But I really think it was sort of a joint effort on the thread - especially Mith's recognizing of Míriel. I wouldn't have thought of it, probably, or not until last week, when I was randomly rereading the Silmarillion, where it of course jumped at me - but otherwise, I kept thinking of more, say, "mainstream" characters (like Morsul's Arwen).

It's funny, I think of course the darkening of Valinor was quite clearly on my mind when reading the second paragraph for the first time, but since it didn't fit at all with the rest of the riddle, I simply blocked it.

I will try to think of some riddle, then. (Though, since I've been posting them a lot, and Mith guessed the first half, I think if she happened to be around and wanted to post one, I think it wouldn't be against the rules that she could post, too. So Mith, if you wanted, just say, before I think of something...)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, truth be told, it was really difficult. Of course in hindsight, neither of the answers is that obscure. But I guess it was the use of the word "kin" that kept returning me to think both the "persons" in question are Elves, what more, likely Noldor, and also the fact that I purposefully ignored the middle part, because it made no sense to me whatsoever.

Thanks- and of course I was counting on all that.

[Galadriel55]

Ah, good one! I would never think to link those two ladies together! I was looking more at the lines of slaying love and ending day, so I was looking for suicidal shieldswomen. Not very hard to find, but doesn't fit.

Just a question. How does Ungoliant slay/wound her love?

Once again, wow Legate, and tricksy riddle, Nerwen!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ah, good Just a question. How does Ungoliant slay/wound her love?

That was meant more as a clue to the kind of creature she was. However, the specific reference is-

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them...

[Mithalwen]

Oh no, I would never have got Ungoliant ..too ignorant of arachnids... Miriel was the easy bit. So over to LoAL