Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Hiya!

Not my fault that people are so dissatisfied, it's the truth, and it was good enough for Tom and Goldberry. How come nobody wonders much about her, anyway, and who her father the River-King really is? She must me nearly as much of an enigma as Tom.

The days are fated to be filled with marvels.</p>

[enep]

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Tom as a Balrog...

I think the general majority agree, KQY <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> that Goldberry is one of the lesser spirits of Ulmo, a Maiar. Which some use as an excuse to call Tom a Maiar. Tut tut. He is clearly a winged Balrog in disguise. <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil"> Btw, there are a few Golberry posts back there somewhere in the earlier posts where nobody goes <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Tom as a Balrog...

I like the explanation that Tom is a chameleon. Although a Balrog in disguise could be quite interesting...

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: Tom as a Balrog...

Tolkien must be turning over in his grave! To hear that his enigma has been branded a chameleon!!! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Tom as a Balrog...

Are you suggesting that chameleons aren't worthy of Tom-ness? <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

BTW: This should be my 200th post. Whoohoo!

</p>

[enep]

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Hippies, Chameleons and Balrogs

Congrats on the 200, Z! 50 more for Shade-e-ness. (I'm already a Shade. Heh heh <img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> ) Chameleons? What a joke. He is clearly a winged Balrog in disguise; if he isn't a hippie trying to escape conscription <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Hippies, Chameleons and Balrogs

You've read Bored of the Rings?

</p>

[enep]

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Well...

Erm...actually I haven't. You mentioned that in an earlier post <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> But if I could find a copy I certainly would. I've seen a few comic-strip parodies of LotR, but never an entire book.

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Well...

I only read about half of it. It wasn't that great.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Congrats!

Congrats Z! Bored of the Rings?? Never heard of it. Whho is it by?

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Orald]

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Re: Congrats!

Just to reiterate, enep said a &quot;winged balrog&quot;. Enep is obviously implying that my theory, of winged and wingless balrogs is correct. Bored of the Rings? I say bah. The Tolkien Sarcasm Page clearly states that Tom is the
Witch-King. Anyone who knows anything can see this.


We try and we try, but our discussions on Tom and several other topics always end up dilapadating in mindless banter.

"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 622
Re: Hmm

Originally Posted by Gwaihir

Goldberry is a Maia, a lesser spirit of Ulmo. Why would she marry Tom if he was not one also?

Originally Posted by enep

I disagree. Melian married Thingol. It may be the only Maia-Elder relationship, but it does dispute that point you make

Originally Posted by JRRT

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves

Ennoblment was made via Melian-Thingol-Luthien-Beren-Idril-Tuor and the line was reunited Arwen-Aragorn so to obtain the right to be rulers of all Men. So no furhter ennoblments were needed nor allowed by Eru, so I assume Gwaihir was right. And if anybody gives a counter argument of Imrahil and his ancestors, - Imrahil was simply reported to have strain of elven blood in his vains, not proved to have one indeed, as I understand

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Re: Hmm

Intriguing ideas.. So Imrahil's a halfling, or is a minute portion of his make-up Elvish?

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[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

He can't be a maia because Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron were affected by the ring but he wasn't. And for the same reason he can't be man, elf, dwarf etc. I don't think he would be one of the Valar either since he says that he was here before the first tree which was done by the Valar when they first arrived on Arda, and he was there before the 'great enemy' (probably Melkor) although Melkor is believed to have been the first Valar there. So I think that he is and embodiment of Arda or a spirit of the earth.

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.

</p>

[enep]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Welcome to the board, Elenanna! I think I've already said that, but hey <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

I won't bother arguing about the reason for which the Ring gives power to the bearer; I've already talked about that too much. (If you really want to read some exceptionally long and boring posts on the Ring head on to http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=1&t=000468this thread</a> but be warned. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Basically, the Ring gives power 'according to stature' i.e. it only gives power to those who desire something, power or peace etc. Gandalf wanted only to be rid of Sauron and leave ME in peace; Galadriel desired much the same (along with beauty for everything around her?) as did many of the other High Elves. Saruman wanted to control everything, and Thorin (along with many other of his kin) would have used the Ring to gain wealth, for greed.

However, Tom desired or sought for nothing. He had set his own bounds, his own 'territory' and was contented with everything that he had within it. Therefore when he put the Ring on it did not have anything to 'corrupt' or he chose not to use the power it offered him (I hate to start this all again <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) and hence it had no effect.

So we can't count him out because of that. To back up the 'for-Maiar' argument, Goldberry was believed to be a lesser spirit of Ulmo, a 'river-daughter,' and since the only major marriages between races (Elwe-Melian, Beren-Luthien, Tuor-Idril, Aragorn-Arwen) seemed to be very important and noticeable (within Tolkien's works) and almost fated within the cosmos, Tom had to be of Goldberry's kind, otherwise it would surely have be noted that he was a Maiar. (I think Gwaihir posted this argument a while back)

However, I think in Letters (which I sadly am too deprived to have a copy of <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> ) Tolkien states that Tom was not a Maiar (correct me if I'm wrong, Letters' owners) and that, coming straight from the top as it were, automatically discounts that argument, as it does to the for-Valar/Ainur.

Tom's not an elf, dwarf, man or hobbit. He's no dragon. Is he an embodiment of Arda? A spirit? We will never no for certain.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Tom is.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Goldberry said it. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Btw, Elenanna, you need to put the picture up on a website...Homestead or Tripod (Geocities doesn't work, they don't allow outside distribution of pictures posted on their posted. Great move, Yahoo. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

Btw II: I'm intigued by your (Quenyan? Sindarin?) sig. What does it all mean? <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

I should stop rambling.

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 3/8/01 4:11:01 am

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Its in Lotr, i think its in sindarin, it means 'a star shines on the hour of our meeting' <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> i know a few more though. Anyways if Tom was a Maiar he wouldn't have gotten to Ardra before Melkor since the weaker ones came later, and Melkor came first.<img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000112>Elenanna </A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/8/01 11:15:39 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 879
Re: Tom Bombadil

As it was stated above (by Mithadan, if I am not mistaken) it is not certain which Dark Lord is meant in sentence before Dark Lord. It may well be Sauron. And even if it is Morgoth, the title Dark Lord is appliable to him only after the murder of Finwë. So, Bombadil may have entered Arda after Melkor, and yet before the Dark Lord, aka Morgoth.

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Aren't semantics grand?

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 880
Re: Tom Bombadil

Sure, mate

[enep]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Of course, Elenanna! That thought just hit me while browsing another good Tolkien site (although nowhere near as fantastically superior as the BD) where the quote at the top reads your sig and under it a translation. Gildor to Frodo, if I recall now. <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

Mith's point is very true, and rightly brought back into the spotlight. And all of this confuses me, so I don't think I'll comment on anything...partly because I couldn't be bothered. <img src=tired.gif ALT="/I">

But...if Arda was empty before, presumably, Melkor descended into it, and all life was created by Illuvatar's hand and was not 'awakened' (even though it was present, lying dormant so to speak [i.e. we speak of the 'awakening' of elves, suggesting they were 'hibernating' until given the signal to rise, much the same as the Seven Fathers of Dwarves] how would Tom have been 'here' before Melkor even if that was the 'Dark Lord' he was talking about? Who was he created by if he wasn't a Maiar and was awakened before the elves?

Blah! <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

- enep</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Heren, if he came to the earth after the valar then why does it say that he was there before the tree? surely you don't mean that the elves were there before the trees? Mabye its just that he knows everyone else calls him the dark lord and the hobbits do not know of Melkor so he calls him the dark lord. He also says he was her during the great darkness... there was no great darkness during sauron, i think. And there is know mention of any of the maiar coming to arda during saurons reign, besides of course the istari. ANd even if there was they would have stayed in Valinor for there was no Melkor to pervert them and no reason to go into middle earth

</p>

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

When the Earth was first created, it was unformed and only through the efforts of the Valar did it take shape. Presumably, trees came sometime thereafter.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Yes... but he was there during the first darkness. That means before light any light, even the light of the stars. And the valar needed light to make things. and u havent mentioned nething about the darkness varda made the stars when she got there and if he was the during the great darkness he would have been around when melkor came. Sauron did not come until when the stars were made and u havent said nething about what she said about if they came while sauron was ruling than certainly he would have at valinor and would have no cause to go to middle earth.

</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

i think he was created by the earth, and its substance as a creature to protect it, an embodiment of the earth perhaps... i'm not really sure what he is just quite sure on what he's not <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

I was reading Puck of Pook's Hill by Rudyard Kipling, and I realized that our friend Tom and that old household spirit Robin Goodfellow have a suspiciously large number of things in common:

1. Physically similar(I forget Puck's exact description, but it's a lot like Tom's)

2. Both call themselves the eldest, and have been around practically forever.

3. Neither have grandiose wishes for rule or control, just like to take care of their own little area.

4. Both cheerful, mischievious, little or no fear of anything.

5. Both have inherent subtle powers related to the earth and nature.

Is Tolkien's Tom inspired by tales of Robin Goodfellow, is it coincidence, or are they one and the same? If the last, would that mean that the ancient land of the Shire might be found in England? (I think that's another topic.)

They cannot conquer forever!</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Kipling is one of my favorite writers, K. I haven't read Puck in years and the association never occurred to me. Now I'm going to have to go back and check it out! Thanks for the ref.


</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Puck/Robin Goodfellow being the same Puck as in A Midsummer Night's Dream? (I haven't read any Kipling, but I'm going to have to, now!)

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Tom wasn't very mischievious, at least I don't recall.

Fate, it seems is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

he wasnt really mischevious more care free and cheerful

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[KayQy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Puck/Tom

Z: Yeah, the Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream was based on an old English household spirit named Robin Goodfellow. The similarities show up better in Kipling than in Shakespeare.

El &amp; D: You're right, I just couldn't think of a better word for their similar outlooks on life. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Odysseus819]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

I read part of this thread, not the whole thing, but is Tom's apparent abililty to &quot;teleport&quot; (he appears at the barrow instantly, although it took the hobbits several hours to walk there) consistent with his being a Maia? Gandalf, Saruman and Melian don't have this ability, do they? I like the &quot;Tom is an enigma&quot; theory, mostly because that's what JRRT said and I want to take him at his word.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 951
Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

Gandalf and Saruman were embodied by their duty, Melian by her love, Bombadil was free in his own boundaries

[Hannah 3]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

As to the original question of w'what IS Tom' -

I have know idea where she got this from, but my sister andustar claims that Tom was a character taht Tolkien made up entirely unconnnected with ME... and then he mixed the two. I'll have to ask her about that...
But that would mean he isn't in any category like Maia, Valar, Eru himself. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> He's just, well,

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Odysseus819]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

aI like your signature, Hannah. Wilde always good for a quotable line.

</p>

[Beregond]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

Tom started out as a doll of one of Tolkien's children. Like Goldbury says, He Is. I don't think Tolkien had any idea who he was. However, it's always fun to speculate! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

Ai! The Bombadil thread lives again! Ron, I told you to use a silver bullet!

Just kidding of course. All are welcome to reawaken any dormant thread even to rehash what has already been thoroughly chewed upon (Grrr! Mixed metaphor. Tom does that to me.)

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Hannah 3]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beam Me Up Tommy

Odysseus - Thanks <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> that was the only part of 'the Picture of Dorian Gray' that made me laugh. the rest just made me want to cry... *Hates that book*

Maybe Tolkien knew what he was, but not in relation to middle earth?

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Belegheru]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

First of All I would like y'all to note that Tom Bombadil once said to Frodo as an answer to his question who he was, that he was on this earth before the evil came from outside and when stars where always shining in the night when night still was beautiful. So this means Tom was in Middle-earth before Melkor was and before that light-towers where made by Manwe and Varda. This means that Tom was very old and must have been an Ainur probably a Maiar. Since he loves nature and is master of the nature where he dwells he must have been a helper (maiar) of Yavanna who was the Vala who dealed with nature. When Yavanna and the other Valar escaped for Melkor to the Undying lands Yavanna probably let him stay in Middle-earth to care for the nature instead of her. Later on when time flew away he probably just stayed in one place and became the master of that place.

I think this is a very logical theory and it is very likely to be true!

Belegheru

</p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 146</TD><TD><img src=http://www.jamestbaker.com/cec/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I think it's obvious that Tom was an Ent in disguise. Geez!

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>

[Belegheru]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Maybe he was!!! But he didnt look like treebeard did U know what im saying yoh!


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