WW XCVI - The Fell Winter of 2911

[Aganzir]

Okay I'm getting pretty sure Kath (this trumpet makes you my girl) is innocent.

I also doubt Nog is a wolf. If he was, someone quieter than Inzil would have been killed.

I have no read on sally and Glirdan. I may vote for one of them if they keep being quiet (except we can't really afford to waste lynches) even though I understand it's because of RL reasons. But then we can't afford to keep submarines around either. Decisions decisions.

Poor Lommy has trouble with her gut. Apart from that, she doesn't look overly evil if not particularly innocent either.

I'm curious about Menel and his vote for G55. He doesn't comment on the Inzil episode in any way but votes for her because

As such, I agree on G55; she does grasp at straws for suspicions and the voting pattern for yesterday is suspicious and implicates Sally as well.

I don't know, I just would've sort of expected the person whom some are ready to declare a known innocent to say something. If he's innocent and thinks Inzil dreamed of him, it's not plausible to suspect G55 because of Inzil's comments... but then, he voted for her because of her own behaviour. I don't know if my ramblings make any sense.

Legate rubs me in the wrong way based solely on a gut feeling. It's not like he looked suspicious, and I'd like to think he's innocent, but there's something off about him that makes me wary. I can't really specify and I don't know if it's anything, but I'll be keeping an eye on him and will try to elaborate later.

Then there's Shasta who's misinterpreted things G55 and I have said, but I don't think he looks very wolfish for it.

And Nerwen who's been slipping under my radar and is automatically suspicious because of that because nothing is sneakier than Nerwen as a wolf.

Originally Posted by G55

If he did not, why are people talking about it? An ordo could look at it and see that he voted for me before he was killed. Even if he was not the seer - just see my reply to Legate.

Because he was the seer. But regardless of whether you're a wolf or not, the pack couldn't have known he was the seer. If the wolves had wanted to frame someone, they would've picked a kill that had more pronounced negative opinions than Inzil had.

I might be willing to try our luck with lynching G55... but I'm also aware she'd be a splendid staged lynch for the wolves if she's innocent. I'm going to bed pretty soon and will be back to vote and, hopefully, to post more in the morning.

[Galadriel55]

I know I'm suspicious, since I usually gather suspicion faster than a bucket gathers rainwater during a storm. There's really no way I would be able to convince you that I'm an innocent, in any way other than being toDay's lynch. But I want you to have this in mind: the wolves will benefit more from my lynch than the innocents.

If I'm lynched, the wolves will be having a nice party this Night, since their ploy worked, and because of how little this would benefit the villagers. If, by some miraculous chance, I am not lynched, then I'm likely to be lynched the next Day so no big deal. And anyways, I'm taking the attention off them.

Meanwhile, from the innocents' side: if I'm lynched, my death won't give you anything. I am not a wolf, hence all the possibilities you've come up with for yesterDay's vote tally will fly to pieces; as I said, there were two innocent bandwagons - and try to find who's the wolf in that. I wish you luck. You can't get information from my death, only a loss of an extra person in the innocent's count. You can't even judge who's innocent based on how hard they pushed my lynch, since I am genuinely suspicious and more innocents are likely to vote me than wolves.

The only thing you could possibly gain from my death is some clarity in the village. At least you won't waste your time on me and focus on the wolves - something I've been trying to make you do for the past half a Day, but the talk keeps returning to me. I guess it's a futile task to try and stop you from suspecting me while I'm still around. And I can't convince you not to lynch me, since, well, the suspicion and attention will not stop until I'm dead. Someone will always say "we should have lynched her".



Well, that's that. Think.

Edit: xed with Legate and Agan

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If you're debating about Inzil's dream or fellow wolves saving me yesterDay, think of this:

-knowing that I am likely to go down in the first couple Days - which he does, would Inzil have picked me as his N1 dream? He's not stupid; he knows I am a waste of dream unless I actually survive Day 1 and am suspicious enough to merit one

Well, I think that is not a very good point, to be honest.

-knowing that I wouldn't last anyways, and they could be placed under suspicion for that, would the mates risk saving me? It would be better for them to bus me, unless they are darned nice mates.

Whereas this is, yes, I have already been talking about that, too...

EDIT: x-ed since the end of the page

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not very much. I get the general concept - that much is clear to me. But now it seems you are actually saying something different again. So what you are saying now is: the WWs wanted to frame any innocent, so they killed Zil. Not because they would think he was the Seer, but to frame any innocent. And because you were suspected by him, it is you who is being framed? Do I understand it right?

Yes and no, but basically yes. They saw the opportunity for a good kill - Inzil, who was not very outspoken in his opinions other than being bothered (multiple times) by me. Any kill the wolves make has a potential aim for a gifted (usually the Seer), so it would be natural to suspect the person who the killed person suspected - maybe the wolves thought Zil was a Seer who dreamed of Galwolf - regardless of whether he actually turns out to be Seer or not. So the wolves used this as an opportunity to frame me (and they would know that my position is already shaky based on the vote tally, so with this additional point against me they would be able to nicely lynch me toDay - and who could blame them, right?).

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Because he was the seer. But regardless of whether you're a wolf or not, the pack couldn't have known he was the seer. If the wolves had wanted to frame someone, they would've picked a kill that had more pronounced negative opinions than Inzil had.

Whenever there's a kill, s/he's analysed for possible Seerness even if s/he isn't a Seer. Again, what I was saying to Legate in one of the previous posts - even if a kill looks like it has been made as a no-trace or a misleading-trace kill, there's always that possibility that thw wolves saw giftedness in that person. So that person's posts are always scrunitized for possible phrases the wolves could haveinterpreted as clues - regardless of the role of the dead person.

And again, framing me is convenient because I was already suspicious "just because", the vote tally spoke against my innocence, and it's just easy to lynch me. But the main reason still remains that I'm "just any inocent".

[satansaloser2005]

In the interest of not having another messy lynch, I think I'll keep Galadriel around for another Day. Among other things, it's fun to watch her stew.


I'll be back with actual commentary in a bit.

[Thinlómien]

Innocentish

Menel - for toDay, because he seems the most likely seer dream. Although, like I said, it's also pretty likely Zil's dream was someone he could not really comment on since they had not contirbuted that far, which would suck.

Kath - I hate to give people the benefit of doubt because they are confused, but that kind of makes sense at this phase of the game where you have to narrow down the options, not reconsider everything.


Under Rudolph

Shasta and Nerwen - both their normal sneaky selves, I keep overlooking them for some unknown reason. Thy are elusive.

Sally - if Gal is a wolf, then she's suspicious, though.

Legate - yeah. Whoever said loud people are easier to read was obviously wrong.


Suspiciousish

Glirdan - mild bad vibes.

Galadriel - pretty fishy. But she's totally right about herself taking all the attention and that being very harmful if she's not a wolf herself.

Nogrod - awfully quick to throw Galadriel to the lynch block, which could make sense regardless of her role if he was a wolf himself. Just btw I didn't like Nerwen's "others, discuss this while I sit back and relax" comment, makes me suspect something fishy between Nerwie and Noggie actually.

Aganzir - she's enjoying herself too much to be completely innocent.


...that's all? Sick. I have a bad feeling this game will be a massacre unless someone else's brain works considerably better than mine which seems to be in a totally off-ww mode.


edit: xed with Sally and Gal

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Among other things, it's fun to watch her stew.

Why don't you ask me to clarify once again why the wolves love to frame people?

[Nogrod]

G55: I'm okay with any suspicion you throw at me. It's fine and dandy because it's what this game is about: suspect and be suspected, be honest or try to bluff. No problem there. But I hope the next time you call me illogical you actually provide some proof for your claim for that's one thing I strongly deny - and logic or the absence of it can be seen by anyone quite easily as it is there for everyone to see.

Talking about G55 then... After reading the different versions of her "the wolves framed me" -explanation I'm a bit baffled about wht is the thing you G55 are trying make. Are you trying to say that you were the only innocent that suspected another innocent (except Pitch who's already dead) and therefore they picked Zil to frame you? You have been insisting that you are lynched early anyway, so why didn't the wolves trust on that too and frame someone else who's normally harder to lynch? I mean why kick a can that's already rolling down the slope?

It is quite evident that there is no easy or clear interpretation on hand for why the wolves killed Inzil out of everyone else, but as he was the seer indeed, we can't dismiss the possibility they did choose him for a reason. And the only decent reason in that direction (them thinking Zil the seer) seems to be that you G55 are one of them and they got upset.

That doesn't mean we "know" they tried to kill the seer, but if seership was their reason (the suspicion of him being the seer), then it's probably you G55. And I must say some of your posting toDay looks quite bothering in that respect.


PS. You have a nice new concept for making analyses of other people's posting: let's not quote what the analysed player says but let's quote our own comments on their posts...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

maybe the wolves thought Zil was a Seer who dreamed of Galwolf - regardless of whether he actually turns out to be Seer or not. So the wolves used this as an opportunity to frame me

WHAT?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

In the interest of not having another messy lynch, I think I'll keep Galadriel around for another Day. Among other things, it's fun to watch her stew.

So G55 and Sally. Who's the third one?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

WHAT?

that whole paragraph was so confusing I didn't even try to understand it, but if you put it that way...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

that whole paragraph was so confusing I didn't even try to understand it, but if you put it that way...

Wwhat way would you put it?

[satansaloser2005]

Holy crap. And then I read the last few posts by the little gal and I'm wondering why we haven't killed her already. Or possibly sent her to an asylum. Either way, redacted, because....wow.


EDIT: x'd since Gal's 127, which shows how spaced off I am at the moment

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

WHAT?

Oops! Okay, that is rather bad, to be honest. Like, I wouldn't bet just on that, but it's really rather unlikely wording indeed. I mean, after talking over a hundred times like G55 did, I can imagine one can make a slip such as this...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Galadriel - pretty fishy. But she's totally right about herself taking all the attention and that being very harmful if she's not a wolf herself.

Let's make a compromise: you can lynch me as long as you concentrate on other players too toDay. And by "you" I mean the whole village. At least this way some good could be done.

Oh, I see some new posts. sally must be very happy.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But I hope the next time you call me illogical you actually provide some proof for your claim for that's one thing I strongly deny - and logic or the absence of it can be seen by anyone quite easily as it is there for everyone to see.

If you actually read my analysis, you'd see what exactly I was calling "illogical" and why I'm saying that. And I know that you pride yourself in being logical, which is exactly why I cannot dismiss things that don't make sense that are comming from you as easily as when they are coming from someone else.

Obviously. And sorry for the bad phrasing... and you Pitch know that too - that it was bad phrasing * which someone like you would not have used as a pretext to partly justify your vote...

Pitch clearly says that his reason for voting you is because you stand in the doorway between suspecting and not suspecting.

Forgive me my silly question, but where do I pick a suspection by you on Menel?

When you continued questioning his defense of the obvious truth.

Aren't you now just admitting you tried out something?

Pitch made a point against Menel. Others have repeated it. Is one now, by your logic, not allowed to make points against people?

Or should I vote you because you "made a point about Menel"? The reason behind that vote would be as good as yours...

Pitch gave an acceptible reason for his vote. This is absurd, and you have to know it.

Originally Posted by Nog

Talking about G55 then... After reading the different versions of her "the wolves framed me" -explanation I'm a bit baffled about wht is the thing you G55 are trying make.

Bottom line is, I'm gonna vote the next person who asks.

No, I'm not serious, but geez people!

Originally Posted by Nog

Are you trying to say that you were the only innocent that suspected another innocent (except Pitch who's already dead) and therefore they picked Zil to frame you?

Not you, Nog! Inzil is an innocent who suspected another innocent (me).

Originally Posted by Nog

You have been insisting that you are lynched early anyway, so why didn't the wolves trust on that too and frame someone else who's normally harder to lynch? I mean why kick a can that's already rolling down the slope?

First of all, do you expect me to read the wolves' minds? I'm telling you I've been framed because that's what it is. What do you want me to do? Hack into a wolve's account and quote their Nightly discussions for you?

My guess is that they can't have two lynches at once. If the "someone else" was to be framed and lynched, I wouldn't be lynched. There are no double lynches. It's just easier to lynch me and less work to frame me.

Originally Posted by Nog

It is quite evident that there is no easy or clear interpretation on hand for why the wolves killed Inzil out of everyone else, but as he was the seer indeed, we can't dismiss the possibility they did choose him for a reason. And the only decent reason in that direction (them thinking Zil the seer) seems to be that you G55 are one of them and they got upset.

Well then vote me.

Originally Posted by Nog

PS. You have a nice new concept for making analyses of other people's posting: let's not quote what the analysed player says but let's quote our own comments on their posts...

Do you have a problem with what I said in my post that I quoted? Or is it the quote tags around it that bother you?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

WHAT?

Really?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Wwhat way would you put it?

The sarcastic way.


sally, I hope you were entertained.

[Galadriel55]

PS: I'm going away for 3hours or so soon, but I'll be back to vote. Maybe I'll have time to slip in a post or two before I go.

[Galadriel55]

PPS: yes, now that I reread the "Galwolf" post, it doesn't make any sense, because I was so frustrated. But if you don't consider Agan referring to unknown roles as "she" a slip, you have to realise I'm not going to call myself "Galwolf" in the same post as I make a potential slip.

I don't even know by now if I wanted to write that sentence from the POV of wolves or innocents, but I ended up doing both, which indeed makes no sense whatsoever.

Honestly, though, I'm tired of this, so why don't you just lynch me and concentrate on other people?

[Galadriel55]

PPPS: yes, sally, you probably need to send me to an asylum.

[satansaloser2005]

All of this is being typed as I am bombarded by a dude on either side of me loudly reading books at me, so please forgive any fragmented thoughts. I’m trying.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I guess I can see Pitch's point on Nog, and it's tempting to follow Pitch's lead there. However, I think that in the totality of circumstance, G55 looks worse.

++G55

Choose well.

Um, so....someone else has mentioned this, right? I could see “totality of circumstance” as some sort of bizarre seer hint (or not so bizarre, I suppose) that he thinks Nog is acting suspicious, but knows he is not guilty. Obviously Nog could still be the cobbler, or he could have dreamed Gal as a wolf instead (see below), or this could not even be a thing, but I feel the need to bring it up because....totality of circumstance just seems like a strange phrase to me.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Should I take it then that G55 or Pitch is a wolf and the mates are now hanging around not willing to take side hoping they will not be forced to make a move (to try and avoid a lynch of their mate if s/he's eventually lynched, or not willing to cast the first stone as there is still hope someone else will be lynched - but would hjoin the wagon if the case is lost?)?

I speak of this below, but I know of few players who would willingly help Fenris one of their own, especially given that Gal wasn’t too far in the lead yesterDay when votes started rolling in. (And yes, this does make me look far from the best, but it’s my opinion, and I don’t fear expressing it, because it’s true, so nyah.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

From the Pitch-lynchers Sally's and my votes stand up, clearly, whereas G55's and Agan's votes are more safe. So if someone tried to save a wolf-G55, it most probably would be Sally or me (which I am not).

It would in fact make us (Nog and myself) look quite bad, but as I know Galadriel and I are not packmates, there’s nothing I can do about it. But yeah, my vote was in a very suspicious place. Meh. It happens.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If you're debating about Inzil's dream or fellow wolves saving me yesterDay, think of this:

-knowing that I am likely to go down in the first couple Days - which he does, would Inzil have picked me as his N1 dream? He's not stupid; he knows I am a waste of dream unless I actually survive Day 1 and am suspicious enough to merit one.

-knowing that I wouldn't last anyways, and they could be placed under suspicion for that, would the mates risk saving me? It would be better for them to bus me, unless they are darned nice mates.

You do in fact have a good point about the dreams; I would not expect Dun to dream you on the first Night. However, I’m not basing my ‘what the flip are you doing, woman?’ off of potential seer dreams, but off your actions. And if you have a pack that thought they could get away with it, then yes, I think it would be beneficial for them to try to derail a Fenrissing.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Aganzir - she's enjoying herself too much to be completely innocent.

This is all that I think needs to be said about Agan. She mocks our pain and then she tries to cure it....by ending the pain or us though? Also, note that she’s referring to the cobbler as a she again. Could someone remind me: does she always do that, or is it only an occasional thing? I simply don’t have time to look toDay, for which I apologize. :/




I am confused, and haven’t really made up my mind about most things, but I believe I can section off at least a few people.....


Will lynch:
Gal
Agan



Will not lynch:
Nog
Menel (presently, anyway, as I wish to keep him around)



I am currently undecided on everyone else. I’ll probably be voting shortly before work again, though I hope I can be more active later in the evening (read, when I get home tonight).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nog

WHAT?

Well, well. On the face of it, this looks like the very same slip that Aganwolf made in Wilwa's fairytale game years ago. Anyone remember that? (I bet Agan does. )

Not quite sure, though– I can sort of see what she might have been trying to say there, but it's very convoluted.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Will lynch:
Gal
Agan



Will not lynch:
Nog
Menel (presently, anyway, as I wish to keep him around)



I am currently undecided on everyone else.

This kind of strengthens my suspicion G55 and Sally are in cahoots (and that Sally actually tried to save her late on D1).

She seemed happy enough to mirror my "open attitude" when I said my own vote looks bad, and as no one seemed to cling on it, she decided to make a similar kind of post herself about her voting.

Then her defence of G55 came in just after the odd slip G55 made - and now when some people started talking about it, she has made a 180 (which to be honest sounds more like they had discussed it last Night saying "if they get G, let's join the chorus but let's try to keep her alive if possible").

But the most vicious thing - and the one that kind of makes me reaallly suspect Sally is that I find myself from her really short list of "will not lynch".

The other being Menel... so as to keep up the appearace (?) that she thinks Menel was actually the seer dream of Zil (so G55 is not a dreamt wolf). Nice. But why me then? Of all people why does she think I'm the other one she doesn't want to lynch? Being too close to truth and willing to appease, make me feel good? Sometimes stretching the "right way" means stretching the "wrong way".

So unless she comes up with more convincing reasons why she thinks I'm innocent than trying to rub me the right way and thus possibly not suspect her any more, I'm going to suspect her.

[Nogrod]

Sudden and unwarranted trust is one of the easiest way to track evil...

(Werewolf Handbook, Chapter 5 "Catching a werewolf", 2:2 "Signs to be weary of")

[Galadriel55]

You know what? For the greater good.


++G55


Although it is my problem, it is not my fault that the village as a whole is being dumb toDay. At least this way it will be more productive.

Seriously, I was shaking with rage when I left the computer, and I have no desire to go through it again. Trying to convince you is like walking through quicksand: the more you try, the less you accomplish. So you'd be more efficient with your analyses and attention and whatnot if you vote me and stop talking about me, and start concentrating on other people. If I try to resist my lynch I'll only waste everyone's time and energy that could be spent on looking for wolves. You've discussed me long enough. Just vote and get on to searching for real wolves. If anyone tries to bring the conversation to my posts again, he or she should be tested carefully for being wolves who want to keep attention off themselves.

Just lynch me, cause if you won't this is going to repeat toMorrow and the Day after and etc for as long as I survive.

Take a look at Nog for me toMorrow, if you would.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You know what? For the greater good.


++G55


Although it is my problem, it is not my fault that the village as a whole is being dumb toDay. At least this way it will be more productive.

Seriously, I was shaking with rage when I left the computer, and I have no desire to go through it again. Trying to convince you is like walking through quicksand: the more you try, the less you accomplish. So you'd be more efficient with your analyses and attention and whatnot if you vote me and stop talking about me, and start concentrating on other people. If I try to resist my lynch I'll only waste everyone's time and energy that could be spent on looking for wolves. You've discussed me long enough. Just vote and get on to searching for real wolves. If anyone tries to bring the conversation to my posts again, he or she should be tested carefully for being wolves who want to keep attention off themselves.

Just lynch me, cause if you won't this is going to repeat toMorrow and the Day after and etc for as long as I survive.

Take a look at Nog for me toMorrow, if you would.

Believe me, Nog is fairly high on my list of wolf-suspects toDay. And there is some merit in what you say here– except, do you not realise that everyone voting the same person (i.e. you) will leave us exactly nothing to analyse toMorrow? Or that we can't afford to waste a lynch?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Believe me, Nog is fairly high on my list of wolf-suspects toDay. And there is some merit in what you say here– except, do you not realise that everyone voting the same person (i.e. you) will leave us exactly nothing to analyse toMorrow? Or that we can't afford to waste a lynch?

I have 3/11 votes, unless I missed someone's. If you have a better plan you can try to convince the others - it's up to you. I suggest you rid the village of a suspicious innocent and clear the air for wolf lynch.

[satansaloser2005]

So a cobbler then, I guess? Or not? In any case, I need to rest. While I'm unconscious, I would love for others to discuss Agan. I had hoped to do more than the overall "she's too happy to be good" comment from earlier, but alas, time did not permit it.

Speaking of the cobbler, what do we do when we find him/her? After all, they can incapacitate the ranger, so they are just as dangerous in that regard as the wolves. Thoughts?

And now I must sleep. Agan and Gal are my main two lynch choices toDay. Given that I don't believe Gal is aligned with Nog, I do not want to lynch him, as previously stated, and Menel is just too amusing to kill toDay.

Good night, everyone. I will return a bit before DL to mash my phone's buttons again.


EDIT: At least I think I mentioned the Nog/Gal thing. If not, pretend I didn't accidentally delete it from my earlier post and move on. I don't think they're in a pack. That is all. Sleep now....

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Reading through the day thus far, this is the first thing that caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Sally

And that's an interesting choice of words....

- with nothing else, no follow-up, or anything. Now, granted, Sally tends to have a sense of the dramatic, but to me this screams "Hey, someone else pick this up and turn it into a real suspicion!"

...Which Glirdan ends up doing, here.
[quote=Oh you know, couldn't have anything to do with your use of the word savage. Definitely didn't stand out to me either.

And yet, as much as it stood out, the comment itself strikes me as a very common G55 thing to say, having seen her and many other innocents (myself included) lynched early in the game due to the same problem: wording. And yet, in such a game, where we cannot read each others emotions, faces and body language, it is the only the factual thing we have to go on. But it still stands out to me as a very innocent G55 thing to do.

Her voting placement (which I apologize for my lack of yesterDay) along with that of Noggins looks rather bad on both of them.[/quote]
Now I can't decide if this is just typical Glirdan and my penchant for always finding him suspicious, but I don't really like this post. It's basically saying "Yeah, that's suspicious... and yet it might just be typical G55... and yet it still looks bad... but maybe not... but this other thing still makes her (and Nog) look bad." And then he exits, stage left. It's just a very wishy-washy, flip-floppy thing to say, and ends up telling us nothing about what he actually thinks, which I find very convoluted and odd.

Note: Lommy also sort of picks it up, in #109. Given that I can't really remember anything else she's said this game thus far, that's going to raise her on my suspicion list a bit.

Originally Posted by G55

Now that's really misquoting me! I said that Pitch had good reasoning for his vote for Nog, but I disliked his suspicion on Kath. I didn't like his perspective on Kath, but I thought he explained his vote alright. It’s not like you either completely like someone’s behaviour or completely dislike it; you could like a part of it and dislike another part.

You did, and I'm not really sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. My apologies. Best guess - your usage of "he" and "his" in the previous sentence made me think you were talking about Nog instead of Pitch, but either way, you're absolutely right, and I'm silly.

Originally Posted by Kath

Looks like there's some suspicion of Shasta for acting as though he is trying to get others to bandwagon Inzil.

I think I know which bit you're talking about here. I asked that question in order to point out that some people were having double-standards in relation to Menel being Captain Obvious. It had nothing to do with trying to get votes for Inzil - we were actually agreeing for once!

Originally Posted by Legate

This however again does ring my bells - because it looks a bit like turning suspicion to somebody else in the village.

Eh. I don't know about that. It doesn't bode well for the village to focus on just one person per day - which G55 has actually been saying quite a bit. It makes sense to me that she'd try to start discussion on someone else. Especially because a lot (a lot) of her later posts definitely remind me of frustrated innocent Brinniel.

Originally Posted by Kath

Well, then, as Pitch is innocent ... G55 is more likely to be a wolf based on what I said earlier. Hopefully that now makes a bit more sense.

Wait a second...

Originally Posted by Kath

If G55 is a wolf I think Pitch could be a wolf buddy.

Originally Posted by Kath

This sentence makes me less suspicious of Pitch as it might suggest Inzil had dreamed of Pitch and therefore his lead wouldn't be a negative one. However, as an innocent doesn't actually 'know' anything I think this would be a misleading clue for the Seer to lead if he had dreamed of Pitch.

Originally Posted by Kath

My G55/Pitch theory is put in jeopardy by that vote of G55's for Pitch. It's very bold wolf on wolf if it is that!

Quotes in their entirety, as I'm trying to avoid "misquoting", but it looks to me like you were considering that Pitch and G55 were wolves together (before you realized Pitch was dead). But now that you've realized Pitch was innocent, G55 is still likely to be a wolf? Girl can't win with you, huh, Kath. I'm pretty confused by this, honestly.

Originally Posted by Menel

I'm not going to be around much today as I have a lot of real life things to do.

As such, I agree on G55; she does grasp at straws for suspicions and the voting pattern for yesterday is suspicious and implicates Sally as well.

No mention of Nog here, even though his was the vote that made Pitch hit four votes (by crossing with Sally, apparently.) Interesting.

Originally Posted by Lommy

After rereading Zil's posts I would say it's more likely he dreamt Menel than Gal, and also possible that he dreamt someone else entirely, but didn't speak a word. (For example the person hadn't said anything he could comment on before he had to vote and leave.) One thing that speaks in Menel-dream's favour is that he was the first person Zil mentioned.

The fact that Lommy's first post of the day was evidencing more suspicion of G55, combined with the timing of this post (it comes right after Legate at #115, who also puts in support for Inzil having dreamt Menel), makes me raise my eyebrows some more. Classic Lommy flip-flopping? Or Lomwolf beginning to wonder if a G55-lynch is as much a lock as it first seemed to be?

Originally Posted by G55

Interesting, interesting. Not sure what to make of this. On one hand, he does have a point, but on the other, he's hanging back himself - waiting for the others to go first? But the reasons for him hanging back cannot be the ones he lists, because neither me nor Pitch are wolves. If he's a wolf, though, he'd probably want to take the wagon that would make him look better. If he's an innocent, why on earth was he hanging back himself?

I'm not certain this is an applicable point. Nog almost always holds his vote as long as he can, because of all the new developments that can happen at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Sally

In the interest of not having another messy lynch, I think I'll keep Galadriel around for another Day. Among other things, it's fun to watch her stew.

First you poke some suspicion at G55 in a subtle way, and now you want to keep her around?

Nog at #129 - I slipped up during my very first WW game that way. G55 isn't exactly a newbie at this, though... agh. I don't really know what to think about that. I was kind of leaning toward her being a frustrated innocent, but it's possible that she was frustrated into making a slip of that caliber as a wolf, too. Hmmm.

Originally Posted by Sally

Holy crap. And then I read the last few posts by the little gal and I'm wondering why we haven't killed her already. Or possibly sent her to an asylum. Either way, redacted, because....wow.

Sallywolf giving it up as a lost cause? If we do lynch G55 and she's a wolf, I think I'd look rather hard at the cupcake over here.

G55's #143 takes the frustrated innocent vibe up to eleven - it's like she's Brinniel, combined with Rikae, with a little bit of Morsul thrown in.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Making a list, and I'd like to note - it could easily be possible that Inzil dreamt of an innocent Menel and that G55 is a wolf. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Now then.

Green:
No one. (Well, me, obviously. )

Yellow:
Menel. I myself am also leaning toward a probable Day 1 dream of Menel as innocent, and he hasn't otherwise made my hackles rise.
Nerwen. The splendid moon herself is behaving in her standard fashion, basically - I haven't seen much one way or the other.
Legate. Lommy seemingly parroting him makes me feel better about him, and he's been mostly focusing on G55 and Nogrod today, which I can't really blame him for, considering. No immediate red flags.
Kath. Goes here for now. I'd like to hear her response to my comment from earlier, about how G55 seems to be wolvish no matter what Pitch was.
Agan. Completely drawing a blank here. No flippin' idea. Person who is most under my reindeer at the moment.


Orange:
Lommy. She hasn't said much, understandably, but what she has said has set off some alarm bells. Her position on G55 looks like she initially was going to bandwagon, but decided not to, due in part to Legate and others supporting a dream of Menel.
Glirdan. Obviously hasn't been here much. I mentioned already why I didn't like his one post today thus far - it picked up Sally's nudged-through suspicion and ran with it... but not really... but still did. Very wishy-washy, and lets him go either way on the G55-wagon virtually consequence-free.
Sally. Giving the G55-wagon subtle pushes here and there, then getting off, then getting back on after the "slip". May change opinion should G55 die and be found innocent.
Nog. Probably the most conditional person in this category. I'm going to have to make myself go through his posts in detail, because he's always one of the hardest people for me to get a read on. He's really only here right now because of his late vote for Pitch yesterday. I'd rather not vote him without a clearer picture.

Red:
G55. I was leaning towards her being a frustrated innocent until the possible slip that Nog pointed out. And I can still see that being the case, but there's also a case to be made for her being a wolf. I think we basically have to know what she is at this point.

[Aganzir]

Sorry guys, I suck. I slept in.

++sally

I think G55 has begun to look more like a very frustrated innocent. A wolf would either give it up as hopeless or go down fighting, but Gal takes the middle path.

Whereas sally is the one that looks the most evil to me at the moment. She seems detached (not just in a "guys are reading books to me" way) yet oddly precise: the way she acknowledged several times that G55's furriness would make her and Nog look bad doesn't sit right with me. And then there was the "discuss if Agan might be the cobbler" statement with no real reasons except that I'm having too much fun, which she nicked from Lommy, who is a prune. Sally, how can I be the cobbler for saying it's a she when I wasn't the seer (who was a she as well) either? For me, everyone is female unless proven otherwise.

I need to rush now. Sorry for inactivity.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Then her defence of G55 came in just after the odd slip G55 made - and now when some people started talking about it, she has made a 180 (which to be honest sounds more like they had discussed it last Night saying "if they get G, let's join the chorus but let's try to keep her alive if possible").

Mhh you really make it sound like you're explaining what really happened from the inside point of view. Like, you decided if she's suspected, Sally tries to defend her and you attack her. I don't know why on earth you guys would decide something like that.

Originally Posted by Sally

So a cobbler then, I guess? Or not? In any case, I need to rest. While I'm unconscious, I would love for others to discuss Agan. I had hoped to do more than the overall "she's too happy to be good" comment from earlier, but alas, time did not permit it.

Speaking of the cobbler, what do we do when we find him/her? After all, they can incapacitate the ranger, so they are just as dangerous in that regard as the wolves. Thoughts?

So you want to get rid of the cobbler not of the wolves? Huh.

Originally Posted by Shasta

The fact that Lommy's first post of the day was evidencing more suspicion of G55, combined with the timing of this post (it comes right after Legate at #115, who also puts in support for Inzil having dreamt Menel), makes me raise my eyebrows some more. Classic Lommy flip-flopping? Or Lomwolf beginning to wonder if a G55-lynch is as much a lock as it first seemed to be?

Why flip-flopping? I never said I thought Galadriel was the dream subject. That, however, doesn't make her look any more innocent.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Legate. Lommy seemingly parroting him makes me feel better about him,

Not parroting, just coming tot the same conclusion after reading the same evidence. You do that too and I bet you'll agree.

That being said, when thinking about my vote, I think Agan's lead might be the wise one. Galadriel is still fishy and it would be convenient to lynch her (before you jump at my choice of words: I mean that like she said, otherwise we will be discussing her all toMorrow, plus her role might tell us about some other people), but Sally is maybe even more suspicious. Besides, we need some competition.

[Thinlómien]

++Sally

Apart from Gal (and possibly Nog), she's the most suspicious person around, and like I said, we need some competition. However, if Agan and Nog are in cahoots, I'm literally going to bang my head against the wall because that was so neat.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

This kind of strengthens my suspicion G55 and Sally are in cahoots (and that Sally actually tried to save her late on D1).

She seemed happy enough to mirror my "open attitude" when I said my own vote looks bad, and as no one seemed to cling on it, she decided to make a similar kind of post herself about her voting.

Then her defence of G55 came in just after the odd slip G55 made - and now when some people started talking about it, she has made a 180 (which to be honest sounds more like they had discussed it last Night saying "if they get G, let's join the chorus but let's try to keep her alive if possible").

But the most vicious thing - and the one that kind of makes me reaallly suspect Sally is that I find myself from her really short list of "will not lynch".

The other being Menel... so as to keep up the appearace (?) that she thinks Menel was actually the seer dream of Zil (so G55 is not a dreamt wolf). Nice. But why me then? Of all people why does she think I'm the other one she doesn't want to lynch? Being too close to truth and willing to appease, make me feel good? Sometimes stretching the "right way" means stretching the "wrong way".

I would agree about the first couple of points. Saying "my vote looks suspicious, I know" is sort of a bad thing to do (though of course, let's not forget, it doesn't matter who said that first, but Nog is in the same position and he was doing the same). Not necessarily the use of your name on the short "will not lynch" list, because, what of it? However also, the Menel-befriending looks like something that a "programmed Wolf" might do.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You know what? For the greater good.

(...)

Just lynch me, cause if you won't this is going to repeat toMorrow and the Day after and etc for as long as I survive.

Take a look at Nog for me toMorrow, if you would.

Okay, so now the question is whether a Galwolf would do this (or why). Of course if she is really desperate, then it might be a desperate attempt to save herself (and cause exactly what she is warning against - remaining around and distracting village further). I don't know about sally's proposal that G55 is a cobbler, because I don't think she has been acting cobblerishly or sort of making a mess on her own initiative. The frustration, in any case, sounds genuine, but there are these things in the past posts and behavior which still make me unsure.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Believe me, Nog is fairly high on my list of wolf-suspects toDay. And there is some merit in what you say here– except, do you not realise that everyone voting the same person (i.e. you) will leave us exactly nothing to analyse toMorrow? Or that we can't afford to waste a lynch?

Exactly, that's perfect point. Completely ditto. Though, now given the situation, it certainly isn't going to be completely unambiguous case, whomever we lynch. Speaking of that, I could even still go for Nog, if we wanted to have more colorful selection (insert half-funny smiley here, but speaking of that, seriously I am still probably wary the most about Nog, despite what has been the main focus toDay).

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Speaking of the cobbler, what do we do when we find him/her? After all, they can incapacitate the ranger, so they are just as dangerous in that regard as the wolves. Thoughts?

We talked that yesterDay, and yes, I think the Cobbler is as dangerous as the WWs in this game (although now the Seer is dead... still, given the numbers, the Cob can vote along the WWs and whatnot, so not really). However, what - so you originally wondered if G55 is a cobbler, now you are asking what to do with the Cobbler? So did you think she was one or not?

Originally Posted by sally

EDIT: At least I think I mentioned the Nog/Gal thing. If not, pretend I didn't accidentally delete it from my earlier post and move on. I don't think they're in a pack. That is all. Sleep now....

Well this is actually pretty important, given that Nog is somebody who is practically in the same "voting situation" as you from yesterDay. Not sure if I remember you saying that indeed, so: why? Why are they not a pack? Only because you are in the same situation? That sounds eyebrow-raising indeed.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Whereas sally is the one that looks the most evil to me at the moment. She seems detached (not just in a "guys are reading books to me" way) yet oddly precise: the way she acknowledged several times that G55's furriness would make her and Nog look bad doesn't sit right with me. And then there was the "discuss if Agan might be the cobbler" statement with no real reasons except that I'm having too much fun, which she nicked from Lommy, who is a prune. Sally, how can I be the cobbler for saying it's a she when I wasn't the seer (who was a she as well) either? For me, everyone is female unless proven otherwise.

There is point to this in that Sally emerges sort of out of nowhere (out of inactivity) and starts throwing some ideas about. Granted, some new ideas too, for that matter - like that of Agan acting weirdly, which, thinking of it, has some merit. Agan reacts with voting her... (But this "she" thing is really getting old, I think.) Sally seems not to have noticed Agan's use of "she" (nor how it was discussed yesterDay), but Agan's reaction seems just sort of stubborn to me. We have heard it already a couple of times. Aside from that, not aware of sally calling Agan a cobbler, I thought it was Gal she called one, in reaction to her posts and self-vote?

One last thing - I am a bit worried about Lommy's vote coming immediately after Agan's, sort of jumping on the bandwaggon. I don't have any actual problems with Lommy's behavior today in general (there isn't the harshness anymore, so it probably was just lack of sleep), but I am just thinking whether this sudden turn away from G55 might not be actually another attempt to save a fellow Wolf. (Though again, Lommy was suspecting G55 before during the day, so unless she'd have suddenly decided that there is a chance to form some counter-effort and lynch sally instead, when there was some suspicion voiced about her... It's more like the swiftness it came with, a bit out of nowhere, just following the previous remarks of some people suspecting her and Agan voting.)

[Nogrod]

Hats off for G55 from exceptionally well put up show!

It clearly is working as I'm myself also under some doubt now on her role - even if I do remember and know that wolves can go into quite lengths defending themselves (Shasta's comparison with innocent Brinn & wolf-Rikae was quite fitting indeed )

Wolves have also voted themselves. I have done that once and I don't think I'm the only one. *coughRikaecough*

That said, nothing has changed my view on Sally (look my last posts about her) and I'm pretty much okay voting her as well.

And I really don't see much sense in totally turning the tables at this point (45 minutes before the DL) and putting in a new candidate from out of thin air even if I do think there have been some merit in certain questions concerning fex. Agan or Glirdan, or Lommy's sudden vote, or... but they open up quite different vistas - which we sure need to start exploring if we miss-lynch toDay.

[Kitanna]

Remember to vote if you didn't yesterday! I don't want to have to modfire anyone.

[Nerwen]

We talked that yesterDay, and yes, I think the Cobbler is as dangerous as the WWs in this game (although now the Seer is dead... still, given the numbers, the Cob can vote along the WWs and whatnot, so not really). However, what - so you originally wondered if G55 is a cobbler, now you are asking what to do with the Cobbler? So did you think she was one or not?

It is an odd question actually– rather pointless– I mean even if this weren't a a sort of super-cobbler, it's been quite a long time since the days when Cobblers were seen as "not worth lynching".

It is true, though, that the Cobbler is probably to be found *somewhere* in the current mess. In fact I could even say Sally's behaviour might fit her being the Cobbler, unable to make up her mind if G55 is a wolf or not. –That's "might fit", mind you– I could perhaps say the same thing of Lommy, too.

EDIT:X'd since Legate.

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, goodie. I've slept in and am now in a horrible rush. Please don't kill me (literally?) If I'm not able to get back again before deadline; I'll do my best to catch up, but....ugh. Mornings.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, where is everyone? Anyway, a short list...

Shasta - is interacting, even though it is very difficult to tell what exactly is he doing, I think he's been shifting a bit under my radar. Would like to read more and clarify my thoughts on him in the future.
Menel - popped in once toDay. Would be nice to see more from him in the future. I do not have any reason to suspect him, but then again, no input is no input.
Glirdan - a bit the same case as Shasta, even though a lot less contributive. Also would like more input from him.
G55 - some of her posts seem genuine, some look more strange and suspicious. Her somewhat confusing/contradictory explanations of what exactly she meant or suggesting that Zil being the Seer was not the reason for the WW's kill, along with the possible slip about "wolves thinking that Zil dreamt of Galwolf" are rather bad, the self-vote is another thing to consider, though, and what exactly was the motive of it.
Nerwen - is very sharp, very witty, has observations I can identify with, so unless I turn paranoid, I think this far I don't have reasons to say anything against her.
Nogrod - keeps his place on my suspicion list. He is sort of casting suspicions around - yesterday it was with Menel, then he voted in the Pitchwagon (and later said he would have perhaps preferred G55), toDay he was mostly going with the main direction of the discussion, casting suspicion again on G55 now, and on sally later. He had this "I acknowledge my vote was bad"-moment, which later sally said too, I think in general their votes depend a lot on what G55's role is.
Lommy - if it were not for the last-minute rather sudden jump on bandwagon started before by Agan, I wouldn't probably have thought her any awkward at all.
Aganzir - I wonder if her vote for sally was retaliation, though Agan is certainly not the person I'd expect to act that way (sort of, too "primitive" reaction for her, I'd say). Otherwise, maybe she does deserve a look, but she also had from the start some rather good observations and comments.
Sally - some points raised about her lately, she came out of the blue with some random ideas herself, too (like looking at Agan). She seems a bit as if she were out of the game first and then suddenly came bursting with ideas. Like Nog, she pointed out how bad her vote was, see above.
Kath - has disappeared quite early in the Day, nothing much to tell right now.

Basically, either Nog or G55 could be my votes toDay. I don't want to jump any sallywagon also because I think it would be rather random first, and unlike in Nog's case, she said too little to analyse. That means I would like to see more from her, just like from about half a dozen submarines otherwise.

Now to see if anybody at least posted meanwhile...

EDIT: x-ed with everyone since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Regarding G55's "slip": people have asked whether any reasonably experienced wolf could make a slip like that– and I say the answer is "yes", under sufficient pressure.

Just to clarify: I'm not talking about her calling herself "Galwolf", which seems just her being hypothetical, but rather her strange reasoning there, which looks a lot like a wolf forgetting to separate her actual point-of-view and knowledge from that of the village. As As I said, I've seen the exact thing before.

If it is that. It could certainly also be a tangled attempt to explain the psychology of framing in terms of "what the wolves think the village thinks the wolves think". (Not that it really answers the questions she was being asked, mind you.)

EDIT:X'd with Legate.

[Nogrod]

Okay, lynching G55 might bring light to a few questions and it looks more probable to me she is a wolf than not - which doesn't mean I'm happy and easy to go with lynching her, but think it a reasonable choice.

On the other hand I just re-checked Sally's #139 and it really makes me want to lynch her, especially her odd choice of saying she will not want to lynch me (or Menel - picking us two from everyone else just like that) - which I just can't see any justification whatsoever, but to try and rub me the nice way to make me not wish to lynch her. If that was her plan it is backfiring in a major way...

[Nogrod]

Ditto, Nerwen!

Exactly. And I think some other posts of hers kind of reveal that same kind of rift between what she as a wolf thinks and how she tries to present things as a non-wolf... or to be more exact: it looks like there is that duality.

Does anyone have a tally?

G55 3 votes and Sally 2? Right?