TIG XCIII - Betrayal at Henneth Annûn (Game thread)

[Inziladun]

Darn it.

++G55

Looks worse than Lottie, I hate voting Bom Day 1, and it doesn't look like I'll have any takers on Sally. I'll not waste my vote.

[satansaloser2005]

I did say when I joined this game that I wouldn't participate in an arms race.

++Bom

Revenge votes are just tacky.


EDIT: x'd, and I care not with whom (though it was since my last post)

[Galadriel55]

++Bom

I wanna live, people. You wanna live too.

Edit: xed since my last

[Pitchwife]

DL. Silentium.

[Pitchwife]

The way this first Day of the Rangers’ trial began, Faramir’s stern words might as well have been spoken to the wind. Loslote seemed to think the nomenclature of fruit more important than finding the enemies hidden among them. Shasta showed off his strength by breaking a chain. Boromir chid Galadriel for her excessive use of emoticons*, then proceeded to recount his impressions of a story told in moving pictures (such as the Eldar are said to conjure up by their enchanting art) which he claimed to have seen and which purportedly told of the adventures of a crimson headdress. The cavern of Henneth Annûn seemed to have turned into a madhouse.

“What has happened to you?” barked grumpy old Nogrod, a veteran of many raids. “Have the evil servants made a spell and turned everyone into toddlers in a sandbox?” Disgusted by the indignity that had taken possession of the Rangers, he turned away and wasn’t heard again for a long time.

Thus called to order, the Rangers pulled themselves together, and the trial began in earnest. Boromir accused Aganzir of using a classic trick of Black Númenóreans, which led to some controversial discussion but no result.

“Galadriel seems jumpy,” observed Loslote. “It makes me think she has something to hide.”

“I haven’t,” said Galadriel, “and I’m not jumpy!”

“Yes you are,” said Aganzir, “and I said that first, by the way.” She took a spear and pricked Galadriel, who cried “Ouch!” and made a startled little jump.

“See?” said Pomegranate. “You’re jumpy!”

“Only because she pricked me!”

“Now you’re being overly defensive”, said Loslote. “A clear sign of guilt.” She picked up another spear and pricked Galadriel again.

“Stop doing that!” cried Galadriel. "It hurts!"

“She’s trying to stop us discussing her,” said Shasta. “I’d do that myself if I was a Black Númenórean.” He took up a third spear and joined the pricking.

“But none of this is very incriminating,” Rune objected. “What about Bom over there? He hasn’t done anything helpful all day.”

“Attacking me for lack of content?” said Bom. “That’s odd. Maybe you’re a spy yourself?”

Greenie agreed with Rune that Gal didn’t look like a servant of Sauron and said she wouldn’t mind executing Loslote instead. But when the hour of judgment came, the majority held Galadriel guilty.

“Pithwivion’s ghost demands blood!” exclaimed Shasta and drove the first spear into her, followed by Loslote a split second later.

“It won’t do you any good to lynch me,” protested Galadriel, blood bubbling on her lips from her pierced lungs, “as you’re likely to find out.” But she had hardly finished when Aganzir stabbed her with the third spear.

“I want to live!” cried Galadriel, her breath failing. “You want to live too!”

It was too late. Inziladun thrust the fourth and final spear into her heart, and she collapsed on the floor.

Holding their breath, the Rangers waited for the change that would reveal Galadriel’s true face. But nothing happened. Neither did they find any sign on her body when they examined the corpse. They searched her belongings, hoping for something else that would confirm her guilt, but only found a fine longsword of the best Dwarven steel which Galadriel had kept wrapped in a spare cloak.

"So that's what she was hiding!" somebody said. “Why didn’t she wear it on her? She might have used it to defend herself!”

“That blade was to protect you, not to hurt you,” said a ghostly voice that sounded like their dead comrade Pithwivion’s.

One after another, the Rangers’ faces turned pale as ashes as they realized they had slain their Night Guardian. Nobody would stand between them and Sauron’s assassins now.
______________________________________

*Quenya emóticon, correct plural emoticonti: technical term for a special class of tehtar used in some of the arcaner tengwar modes.

__________________________________________________ _____________

IT IS NOW NIGHT 2. Black Númenoreans, choose your kill. Faramir, choose your dream. Mablung and Damrod, you may talk. Everybody else, good night.

DEAD
Pitch (Mod) - pushed over the edge Night 1
Gal55 (Anborn) – pricked to death Day 1

ALIVE
Agan
Greenie
Bom
Boro
Glirdan
Inzil
Lottie
Nog
Nate
Rune
sally
Shasta

[Pitchwife]

Deep in the Night, when the other Rangers had finally managed to find some slumber, three figures rose stealthily and looked around them.

“The sleeping spell I have cast holds them firmly,” said one of them. “Nothing will wake them until Daylight.”

“It has gone well for us so far,” said another. “Better even than we could have expected.”

“Yes,” said the third, “the Great Eye will look fondly on us.”

It was then that they noticed that one of the cots was empty.

“Ah, him,” said the first Black Númenórean. “Up and about, is he? I think our choice for toNight has just been made for us.”

The second nodded. “Yes, he needs to be taken care of anyway. He is one of the few who might talk some sense into these pathetic Rangers.”

“But where can he have gone?” wondered the third.

“I think I know,” said the first. “Come!”

* * *

Nogrod had gone outside to smoke a pipe of sweet galenas, as was his wont. They found him sitting on a rock near the waterfall, puffing smoke rings and looking at the moon. When he heard their footsteps approaching, he turned around and raised an eyebrow.

“I did not expect you to come for me so early,” he said calmly. “I have barely said a word yesterDay.”

“And we have come to make sure it stays this way,” said the leader of the Black Númenóreans. At a gesture from him, his two accomplices seized Nogrod and held him so fast he could not move when their leader picked the pipe from his mouth.

“This weed is bad for you”, said the sorcerer, sniffing with a wrinkled nose. “No true servant of Annatar would consume it. Besides, you can die from it, did you know? As you will find out now.”

* * *

When the cavern lit up with Daylight, the Rangers awoke from dreams of blood and guilt. They soon discovered that Nogrod’s cot had not been slept in.

They didn’t have to search very long, but soon found him just outside the cavern, near the waterfall, lying dead on a slab of rock, his mouth gaping. When they examined the corpse, they found that his tongue was missing, and his pipe had been jammed down his throat.

“Is that supposed to be a pun?” said sally. “Wind-pipe? Abominable.”

It took them longer to find Nogrod’s tongue, which was nowhere on or near his body. But suddenly Greenie cried out in shock.

“What is it?” asked the others. “What have you found?”

She showed them Nogrod’s tobacco pouch. “It must have fallen out of his pocket when we moved the corpse,” she explained. “Look what’s inside.”
__________________________________________________ _____________

DAY 2 HAS BEGUN. Stop all PMing and let the trial continue.

DEAD
Pitch (Mod) - pushed over the edge Night 1
Gal55 (Anborn) – pricked to death Day 1
Nog (ordo) - silenced with a pipe down his windpipe on Night 2

ALIVE
Agan
Greenie
Bom
Boro
Glirdan
Inzil
Lottie
Nate
Rune
sally
Shasta

[Pomegranate]

Touching, this is, the loss of Nogrod. Peace to his soul.

Now, we need to continue searching for the merciless killers. To be honest, because I was so ashamed after all the praises I got of being a good first-timer and then missing the deadline of the voting, I felt the need to concentrate and build up something. So I've got a list, which has the who-votes-for-who and other observations.

A Little Green votes for Lottie because of her sudden jump when she (supposedly) realised she was following Agan’s lead. Stays on this point rather a long while. Believes Agan and Boro innocent. Believes also Bom and G55 innocent. Comments on Rune’s opportunism, but doesn’t take that any further. Doesn’t want to vote for Agan or G55 because they are easy first day lynches.

Rune Son of Bjarne voted for Bom because of unconstructiveness. Does not believe in Boro’s theory about Aganzir, not enough anyway to vote for her, and actually says they both seem innocent. Does suspect G55 but not enough to vote for her, either. Goes after the unconstructive. I noticed Rune has a lot of allies (people he has a good feeling about, and this is mutual), most striking of which is Lottie, of whom he says “What she says seems reasonable” “she voices some concerns that I share” (see Lottie as well). Similar, though less obvious, mutual trust with Shasta and Inzil. Begs for constructiveness but actually himself mainly comments what others have found out by declaring it not suspicious enough, without new ideas, and giving his vote based on unconstructiveness, leaving doors open as Greenie said.

satansaloser2005 voted for Bom because of his ‘revenge vote’ for Rune, after asking from everyone the opinion whether she should vote for G55 or Bom. Sally has actually said nothing beneficial, nothing in any way actually related to suspicions (except her comment on the revenge vote, which was that one sentence and then led to a vote). In her vote she went with the two popular suspects (or I guess Bom wasn’t that much of a suspect than just questioned for his lack of contribution). Hard to believe this is because of the lack of time, because her total number of posts is big – they just don’t have any points in them.

Bom Tombadillo voted for Rune because of his vote. Is, as was mentioned, unconstructive, though defends it in his first post by saying he has not enough time to follow. Suspects vaguely Shasta, though mostly feeling-based, and doesn’t comment that any further.

Loslote votes for G55 because of her jumpiness and her being around and giving the impression of contributing. Actually comes up with own points about G55. On Rune: “I like what Rune says. His reasoning is clear and makes sense - plus I agree with a lot of it.” (see Rune)

Shastanis Althreduin votes for G55 for her habit of trying to move the conversation away from herself. This is the only observation she makes. Says she won’t vote for Rune, saying she agrees with what he said without further defining why.

Inziladun votes for G55 because she seems more suspicious than Lottie. Against Lottie she didn’t actually say anything until that point. Doesn’t suspect Boro or Agan. Makes a list, with not a lot of observations, mainly commenting on Bom’s and Sally’s unconstructiveness and the innocent or unclear feeling about anyone else. Comments there, though, the suspiciousness of G55. Trusts Rune, though only in an overall pretty trusting list.

Glirdan doesn’t vote, and doesn’t contribute. In his case this does seem like lack of time, so it’s hard to see him as either innocent or BN. Doesn’t suspect Boro or Agan. Hoping he becomes more active, so there’s something to say about him.

And then there is Aganzir, who voted for G55 because of the same reasons as everyone else, and
Boromir88, who didn’t vote because of a medical emergency (even if not his own, hope Max is all right). To be honest, I don’t feel like I have a lot of new things to add to the analysis of their conversation, which lasted the whole of the last day. Agan made a list, putting in things people actually said, Boro used it as a bait to get reactions, it worked. From what it seems, these both are pretty typical ways of acting to these players.

Gee, that was a lot of bolding. So I guess my personal main observations from that list are Rune and his allies and his pretty non-substantial and pretty objective posting (though far from sally and Bom, but they have been mentioned before and at least they don't accuse others for their own sins). Also it feels like Greenie accuses Rune of being an opportunist in kiiping the doors open, then realises that she's doing the same, picks up her so far pretty non-pressed argument against Lottie and sticks to it for quite a while.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

We seem to have different ideas about what is constructive in a game of werewolf. I would never demand of people that they produce highly original and substantial posts on day1, but I do expect a minimum of effort and seriousness.

Anyways, I think you produced a nice post to get this day going.

[Inziladun]

Why Nog? What did he do?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Introducing the grumpy Finns, Part 2.

Faramir acts like a ranger, Pitwivion did so... but what has happened to all the rest of you? Have the evil servants made a spell and turned everyone into toddlers in a sandbox so that they can hide more easily behind the veil of sallyness... erm... silliness?


Kudos to Nate for at least trying.


Heh. Complaining, but not doing anything myself? Admitted.

Sorry. I'm in a hurry right now but I should be able to hang around later toDay - and as it is Saturday I can hang around until the end then.

First post. Not much, just an admonishment about the excessive amount of flippancy and general unruliness. Gives a thumbs up to Pom for trying to keep things on track.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Oh Morgoth, I totally forgoth...

I actually came home some twenty minutes ago after a heavy two days of Youth Philosophy Convention I was one organiser of and sat down to my coach to have a small glass of brandy watching some College basketball before going to sleep... Oops.

Okay. I'll take a quick scroll. Half an hour left, right?

A glass of brandy, eh? Wish I had one.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I haven't read all and it seems I have no time to do so (ten minutes left) so based on what I've read thus far I'm thinking of declining from voting toDay - a second time in my life of these games, I think.

I'm very sorry but it feels like really bad to vote someone without reading the thread first, on D1 with no ideas from previous Days.

Decides to abstain from voting, due to not having enough time to read.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But on the top discussion of toDay (what I read of it), I'm inclined to think both Agan & Boro innocent. Boro the more so - not so much because of his explanation the length of which actully is the only thing making me wonder, but because of his open offer to jump himself into the middle of discussion with his stuff on Agan. It just looks like very bad policy from a BN but reasonable spirit from an ordo.

And that's it. Is feeling good about Boro, and to a lesser extent, Agan. I agree with this.

No real signs of anything that could have pointed at Nog as a Seer, so a no-trace kill seems the likely factor.

I'll try to get to the G55 votes in a bit, though Pom, as Rune pointed out, has gotten the ball rolling decently.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why Nog? What did he do?

That would appear to be the point now wouldn't it? Get to Nog before he actually had more time and care to start participating more. Confident pack of wolves it would seem.

And that's it. Is feeling good about Boro, and to a lesser extent, Agan. I agree with this.

That is what has me worried the most at the moment...that is there seems to be a lot of "Agan and Boro are probably both innocent" going around. It could easily be true, of course, but that seems to be the same conclusion everyone's reached, which is kind of strange...Agan, what do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

That is what has me worried the most at the moment...that is there seems to be a lot of "Agan and Boro are probably both innocent" going around. It could easily be true, of course, but that seems to be the same conclusion everyone's reached, which is kind of strange...Agan, what do you think?

I'm not ready to declare you both innocent, but neither of you are tops on the radar at the moment.

I still feel rather good about Agan as a holdover from yesterDay, and I can't really fault her for the G55 vote.

As for you, it's just difficult to see your actions in an evil light. You've been in the thick of things as a baddie before, yes. But what I've seen thus far looks all right. Should I start suspecting you?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

That would appear to be the point now wouldn't it? Get to Nog before he actually had more time and care to start participating more. Confident pack of wolves it would seem.

I would actually draw the opposite conclusion. The villains likely thought Nog would be onto them once he really got into the game, so they killed him before he could do any damage. Thus, a nervous pack, not a confident one.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for you, it's just difficult to see your actions in an evil light. You've been in the thick of things as a baddie before, yes. But what I've seen thus far looks all right. Should I start suspecting you?

The one thing Nog did contribute to the discussion, at least about me, was spot on. But I suspect your suspecting question is rhetorical.

I'm basically trying to figure out whether I should full out pull the trigger and by focusing/going after Agan, or if all the "They're both probably innocent" is in fact true, but that would mean there has to be wolves stating it too. And I would have figured wolves would enjoy an innocent-Agan and innocent-Boro having a good row at eachother...which makes me go back to thinking that Agan could very well be a BN and is hoping if everyone is stating we're both likely innocent, that gets me off her case. But then, I could just be losing my touch at pulling off an excellent and convincing fake fight, ergo, wolves aren't buying it.

Basically my head is about to explode with "do I continue pursuing Agan or is everyone right, that she's innocent too."

But really Agan, you had to choose a pic that showed my horrendous tanlines? I should try to get you lynched just for that.

Edit: crossed with sally. Confident in the sense of, it doesn't appear they were going after the seer, so they must be confident the seer won't be a threat to them yet.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But really Agan, you had to choose a pic that showed my horrendous tanlines? I should try to get you lynched just for that.

You know, there's a way to avoid tan lines you could try. That is, as long as there's a couple hundred miles between us.

Quiet, innit? Doesn't look like I'll get around to looking at the votes tonight. I'm tired, and not that anyone really cares, but my 0515 wakeup is staring at me.

I'm hoping to see more activity when I return. Especially some of the more quiet ones like Shasta, Glirdan, and Sally; and I'm interested in what Bom has to say as well.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by sallycakes

I would actually draw the opposite conclusion. The villains likely thought Nog would be onto them once he really got into the game, so they killed him before he could do any damage. Thus, a nervous pack, not a confident one.

I dont know about that one. I'm more inclined to agree with Boro. I mean, with the exception of Nate, we all know how dangerous an innocent/gifted Noggy is to the Wolves. Its already been said: why him? Well, it was a pretty traceless kill for them. Yet the same could be said had it been myself, or Shasta or any of the other quiet ones. I feel a nervous pack would have been a little more hesitant in their kill selection which also leads me to believe that the Wolves want us to think this way. For all we know, either you yourself dear sallycake or Boro or maybe even both could have been the ones planning this during the night to help steer the conversation in the direction you so choose.

Originally Posted by Zil

I'm hoping to see more activity when I return. Especially some of the more quiet ones like Shasta, Glirdan, and Sally; and I'm interested in what Bom has to say as well.

I am doing my best today. Only impediment during this Day is work, which isn't until the end of the Day.

Now, I hate picking on Newbies....yet something about Nate's first post toDay does not sit well. I'm not sure what it is....maybe it's her wording....maybe it's the over sincerity of having forgotten to vote yesterDay. Okay. Now I'm going to go re-read (and read) yesterDay's posts. I'll be around but it may take me awhile to respond. *grumbles about the lack of a desktop computer/lapto and lack of Internet*

[Glirdan]

Okay....I kinda understand Agan's (and others) frustrations yesterDay with all of the IC posting and banter. It was rather irksome having to read through them again (for a good page at least I may add) and not have anything overly substantial to read.

Anyways, in my reading I noticed something. Lottie seems very....wish washy I think is the term I am looking for. This could just be me and my tendency of suspecting Lottie. She starts off with this

Originally Posted by Lottie

Really, though, that much defensiveness about a Day 1, semi-IC post (from a first-time player, no less) makes me think that you might have something to hide. G55 just jumped to the top of my suspect list.

This happens to be her second post of the Day and already has G55 at the top of her suspect list for being overly defensive apparently. I don't see the over defensiveness by the way.

When Boro starts explaing his leeriness of Agan, he says this:

Originally Posted by Boro

And we have the classic "let me give you all some suspicions, see which ones stick, but distract you with threatening to vote those who are being less helpful at the moment" trick. That is to say, you were willing to vote based on either being annoyed, or to scare Bom, Glirdan, and sally into shaping up and NOT based on suspicions...yet you did the whole "let me give you some suspicions" thing well enough. And it seems to have worked since Lottie has now jumped on your comment about G55 being "jumpy"...wow we are a jumping bunch today.

And at the end of the post:

Originally Posted by Boro

(See what I mean Agan? Lottie jumps at your jumpy comment, and now Pomegranate follows Lottie)

As soon as she reads this post, Lottie starts changing her tune.

Originally Posted by Lottie

You know, I didn't even realize that I was following Agan's comment when I said mine until I saw that bolded in your post! It's the sort of thing you pass over when reading the rest of the post, but sticks in your mind...now I'm wondering if my thinking G55 suspicious was even my idea in the first place, or just my subconcious picking that up.

What's really bothering me is how easily swayed she is by others and its things like that that make me leery. Trying to appease everyone is a tactic seen and used many times before by wolves, or BN's in our case. Now, I will give her credit for sticking to her guns and voting for G55 anyways. Yet she was a part of the reason we lost our Guardian, and if I'm correct, the leading cause. Now, it's quite possible that Lottie is simply a misled innocent and I wouldn't mind hearing a little more from her myself.

However, there are others who voted for G55 who need to be looked at it....or in Shasta's case, need to be heard from.

For now, I'm off. It's getting kinda late and I didn't sleep well last night. I will be back later in the Day.

[Pomegranate]

Glirdan has a point here, which has similarities to the point Greenie was after yesterDay. However, Lottie was the first one to come up with a lot of the points about G55, first one to actually start accusing her, and that would seem such forwardiness that if she was a wolf and knew G55 to be innocent she should've avoided. That kind of action would (and probably will) put her in the spotlight.

I think we should keep frying Lottie a bit, to see what she's up to, but I myself worry more about the follow-ups. Especially Inzil. In her voting-post, she says (gosh, I'm so bad with these, my apologies for everyone who changes genders in my posts) :

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Darn it.

++G55

Looks worse than Lottie, I hate voting Bom Day 1, and it doesn't look like I'll have any takers on Sally. I'll not waste my vote.

"I don't have any takers on sally"? I don't think she ever suggested voting for sally, or suspected her, unless it counts that in her list she mentions "could be voteworthy as a submarine", this being on the penultimate place on her list. This mentioning sally and the others in the voting post seems to me more like trying to hide the fact that she is voting for G55, like she would be reluctant. However, she and Agan are the one who finalise G55's faith by their last-minute votes.

And actually, Glirdan, I think its good that you're suspecting me. I think I've gotten off the suspect list for long enough by being a newbie. Not that I would want anyone to especially think I'm a baddie, but I think now since its Day 2 we should broaden our radar to anyone, not just the couple of the loudest ones.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Anyways, in my reading I noticed something. Lottie seems very....wish washy I think is the term I am looking for.

Really? You know, I do sort of expect you to suspect me at least a little bit by now, but I like to understand where you're coming from when you do. I started off with one post suspecting G55, was taken aback when I realized I'd practically quoted Agan without knowing it, read over G55 and Agan's posts for a bit, decided it wasn't nessecarily that bad, and continued suspecting G55. You seem to be reading my posts as a continuous stream of suspicion with a sudden 180 in the middle. It was more of a sudden stop, look around, think for a moment, and then continue sort of deal. Again, issue with the term "wishy-washy".

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I thought the choice to kill Nogrod was fairly straight forward, but apparently I was wrong. Any BN that does not jump at the chance to make a no trace kill of Nogrod, would not be doing their job properly. The only reasons not to do it, would be if they suspected that Nogrod would get himself lynched or that he was being protected at night.

Crossed with Loslote

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I dont know about that one. I'm more inclined to agree with Boro. I mean, with the exception of Nate, we all know how dangerous an innocent/gifted Noggy is to the Wolves. Its already been said: why him? Well, it was a pretty traceless kill for them. Yet the same could be said had it been myself, or Shasta or any of the other quiet ones. I feel a nervous pack would have been a little more hesitant in their kill selection which also leads me to believe that the Wolves want us to think this way. For all we know, either you yourself dear sallycake or Boro or maybe even both could have been the ones planning this during the night to help steer the conversation in the direction you so choose.

I don't really see the benefit of trying to gauge the "nervousness' of the pack from their Night-kill. I think it's enough that it seems very unlikely Nog could have been seen as a potential Seer. Thus, there is little to gain at this point by still focusing on the issue.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, I hate picking on Newbies....yet something about Nate's first post toDay does not sit well. I'm not sure what it is....maybe it's her wording....maybe it's the over sincerity of having forgotten to vote yesterDay. Okay. Now I'm going to go re-read (and read) yesterDay's posts. I'll be around but it may take me awhile to respond. *grumbles about the lack of a desktop computer/lapto and lack of Internet*

It's worth noting again how quickly Nate/Pom (did we ever decide on which nick was the favorite?) has gotten the hang of this. Could be a sign of a sharp, natural player, but a more sinister reason has to be at least considered.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

What's really bothering me is how easily swayed she is by others and its things like that that make me leery. Trying to appease everyone is a tactic seen and used many times before by wolves, or BN's in our case. Now, I will give her credit for sticking to her guns and voting for G55 anyways. Yet she was a part of the reason we lost our Guardian, and if I'm correct, the leading cause. Now, it's quite possible that Lottie is simply a misled innocent and I wouldn't mind hearing a little more from her myself.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Glirdan has a point here, which has similarities to the point Greenie was after yesterDay. However, Lottie was the first one to come up with a lot of the points about G55, first one to actually start accusing her, and that would seem such forwardiness that if she was a wolf and knew G55 to be innocent she should've avoided. That kind of action would (and probably will) put her in the spotlight.

Also, Lottie's vote for G55 wasn't the first, that was Shasta's. But Lottie crossed with Shasta so she thought she was making the first vote there.
Now, starting a bandwagon isn't necessarily a terrible risk for baddies, but I thought Lottie's case was sound enough by Day One standards.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

I think we should keep frying Lottie a bit, to see what she's up to, but I myself worry more about the follow-ups. Especially Inzil. In her voting-post, she says (gosh, I'm so bad with these, my apologies for everyone who changes genders in my posts) :

"I don't have any takers on sally"? I don't think she ever suggested voting for sally, or suspected her, unless it counts that in her list she mentions "could be voteworthy as a submarine", this being on the penultimate place on her list. This mentioning sally and the others in the voting post seems to me more like trying to hide the fact that she is voting for G55, like she would be reluctant. However, she and Agan are the one who finalise G55's faith by their last-minute votes.

First off, it is he in my case. I know the player details can be confusing. A perusal of the thread whence came this might help to clear up some of the ambiguity.

The only ones I felt comfortable voting for when it came to it were G55 and Sally. Since it was obvious no one else was concerned about Sally, I went with G55.
Some say one should vote for whomever one finds suspicious, regardless of circumstances, but I don't think that's useful. A throwaway vote is a wasted vote.

[Pomegranate]

But the fact is, you didn't actually voice your concerns about sally either. If you would've actually wanted for other people to follow your lead, you could've at least said it out, preferably outside of your list. Now it just feels like you didn't want to actually start accusing her (because someone might've noticed that if she was killed and an ordo), you hoped someone else would, and when they did not you just followed everyone else.

And in this I agree with Rune, I saw the kill of Nogrod as a straightforward thing, that's why I didn't comment it on my first post. From what I know about him, I'm not surprised he's good in this game (you'd all be surprised about how much I know about you, bwaha - thank you, my close IRL darlings). Plus by killing him they didn't rise any suspicions on anyone in particular, which is an easy solution.

And to question my getting the hang of this - yes, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I'm not new to the game, although this is a bit of a different version than the ones I've played before, both online and live. It might explain something.

edit. Ugly spelling.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

But the fact is, you didn't actually voice your concerns about sally either. If you would've actually wanted for other people to follow your lead, you could've at least said it out, preferably outside of your list. Now it just feels like you didn't want to actually start accusing her (because someone might've noticed that if she was killed and an ordo), you hoped someone else would, and when they did not you just followed everyone else.

At the time I made that list DL was almost there. All the votes at that time had been for G55, Bom, and Lottie. No one was even talking about Sally, and I had to make up my mind in a hurry.

Take it as you like.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And to question my getting the hang of this - yes, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I'm not new to the game, although this is a bit of a different version than the ones I've played before, both online and live. It might explain something.

Noted.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Lottie

Really? You know, I do sort of expect you to suspect me at least a little bit by now, but I like to understand where you're coming from when you do. I started off with one post suspecting G55, was taken aback when I realized I'd practically quoted Agan without knowing it, read over G55 and Agan's posts for a bit, decided it wasn't nessecarily that bad, and continued suspecting G55. You seem to be reading my posts as a continuous stream of suspicion with a sudden 180 in the middle. It was more of a sudden stop, look around, think for a moment, and then continue sort of deal. Again, issue with the term "wishy-washy".

I wasn't too comfortable with that term myself. And as I said at the end of the post, I give you credit for sticking to G55 and voting for her regardless, or did you miss that bit? I'm still leery about you. However, Zil also brought up an excellent point in your defense: you had though you voted first. Voting first an sticking to your guns as much as you had is way too bold a move for a Wolf, especially this early in the game. Yet you're not entirely off my radar.

And may I inquire as to why it is so quiet?? Where is everyone. *goes to airport to fly to everyone's house just to tell them to start posting*

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And to question my getting the hang of this - yes, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I'm not new to the game, although this is a bit of a different version than the ones I've played before, both online and live. It might explain something.

Oh? Well, I guess then I don't need these anymore, if I decide to start going after you? *takes off fluffy-soft gloves*

In all seriousness, it definitely appears you know the game well, so I for one, will no longer treat you newbily. Which may not be a pleasant thing, but it would help if I actually suspected you seriously for something.

And since I basically agree with you on Inzil, I'm more inclined to trust you for the time being.

I know when he's busy he can seem rushed and agreeing. But he also should know by now saying you want to hear more from sally and Bom is like just saying something to say it. If that makes sense? They're easy targets for wolves because it's easy to get people to agree "vote for the submarines!"

But I know they're also frustrating for wolves, because if you don't say anything, than wolves can't twist anything to make it look bad. See, me, it's easy. If the wolves really wanted to get me lynched I'm sure they can find a bunch of stuff to manipulate and use against me...the trouble is I bombard with long and fanciful posts, it's overwhelming and usually not worth the effort. Much easier to continue the "sally and Bom need to say more" argument...when in fact you know

1) They won't

leading to...

2) Easier to convince innocents to lynch 'em

This is at least where I understand Rune's frustration, since he's been out of the dynamics for a while, and probably hasn't played with many of us...I can't remember the last time I played a game with Rune. Anyway, he seems genuinely not used to this many submarines and fluff posters.

Edit: Believe it or not crossed with Glirdan...visitor came who I had to entertain briefly.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As has been said, it looks like laying odds that Nog was taken out while it was safe to do so is probably what happened.

Going through Day 2 thus far now -

Originally Posted by Boro

That is what has me worried the most at the moment...that is there seems to be a lot of "Agan and Boro are probably both innocent" going around. It could easily be true, of course, but that seems to be the same conclusion everyone's reached, which is kind of strange...Agan, what do you think?

That does have me concerned, to be honest. Could be just that I'm me and you're you, though.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I dont know about that one. I'm more inclined to agree with Boro. I mean, with the exception of Nate, we all know how dangerous an innocent/gifted Noggy is to the Wolves. Its already been said: why him? Well, it was a pretty traceless kill for them. Yet the same could be said had it been myself, or Shasta or any of the other quiet ones. I feel a nervous pack would have been a little more hesitant in their kill selection which also leads me to believe that the Wolves want us to think this way. For all we know, either you yourself dear sallycake or Boro or maybe even both could have been the ones planning this during the night to help steer the conversation in the direction you so choose.

Eh? I'm not really sure what you're saying here, because it looks like you're agreeing with Boro in one breath and then suspecting him in the next.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

However, there are others who voted for G55 who need to be looked at it....or in Shasta's case, need to be heard from.

*raises eyebrow* Really now.

I'm going to ignore that comment for now, save for one of my own about stones and glass houses, and focus on your theory regarding Lottie - which is interesting; however it doesn't look any different to me than normal D1 Lottie when there's nothing yet to go on. In fact, I've seen worse from Lottie than "jumpiness" (generally something to do with something someone posted in IC.)

Originally Posted by Inzil

I don't really see the benefit of trying to gauge the "nervousness' of the pack from their Night-kill. I think it's enough that it seems very unlikely Nog could have been seen as a potential Seer. Thus, there is little to gain at this point by still focusing on the issue.

This is an issue I have every game - I don't understand why people decide not to look at the information that's right in front of them. Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

Originally Posted by Inzil

It's worth noting again how quickly Nate/Pom (did we ever decide on which nick was the favorite?) has gotten the hang of this. Could be a sign of a sharp, natural player, but a more sinister reason has to be at least considered.

This is probably one of the more specious reasons I've seen for suspecting someone. However, it's generally a given that a newbie is considered "hard to lynch" in their first game, so I don't really see Inzilawolf making an effort to lynch an innocent Nate. Still.

Originally Posted by Nate[/quote

Shastanis Althreduin votes for G55 for her habit of trying to move the conversation away from herself. This is the only observation she makes. Says she won’t vote for Rune, saying she agrees with what he said without further defining why.

Heh. It's actually "he".

Originally Posted by Boro

But I know they're also frustrating for wolves, because if you don't say anything, than wolves can't twist anything to make it look bad. See, me, it's easy. If the wolves really wanted to get me lynched I'm sure they can find a bunch of stuff to manipulate and use against me...the trouble is I bombard with long and fanciful posts, it's overwhelming and usually not worth the effort. Much easier to continue the "sally and Bom need to say more" argument...when in fact you know

1) They won't

leading to...

2) Easier to convince innocents to lynch 'em

I don't know that I agree with this - generally that leads to...

3) Deciding "we can't afford to waste a lynch on a submarine - if they win they don't deserve it" and moving on.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But I know they're also frustrating for wolves, because if you don't say anything, than wolves can't twist anything to make it look bad. See, me, it's easy. If the wolves really wanted to get me lynched I'm sure they can find a bunch of stuff to manipulate and use against me...the trouble is I bombard with long and fanciful posts, it's overwhelming and usually not worth the effort. Much easier to continue the "sally and Bom need to say more" argument...when in fact you know

1) They won't

leading to...

2) Easier to convince innocents to lynch 'em

This is at least where I understand Rune's frustration, since he's been out of the dynamics for a while, and probably hasn't played with many of us...I can't remember the last time I played a game with Rune. Anyway, he seems genuinely not used to this many submarines and fluff posters.

Come on, Boro. Do you really think submarines should be allowed to just lie low while the loudmouths duke it out? It's pretty difficult to get a handle on people when they either don't post, or stick to banter.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Bllllrg. As Glirdan said, awfully quiet today. Maybe the wolves are trying to keep their heads down?

I wasn't really bothered by PomPom's swift skill - I assumed she'd done what I did, which was to read several games before actually joining one (or the 'Downs themselves). I did consider the alternative but since it was D1 at the time, she got a newbie pass.

Regarding this:

Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

from Shasta, I do believe the problem is: what information? Nog made a total of four posts, all substance-less with the exception of a statement that he thinks both Boro and Agan innocent. No suspicions, and nobody suspected him.

So, we've basically got the same things to discuss as yesterday, except we're now two innocents closer to defeat.

I'll check in periodically to see if the aforementioned wolves decide to poke their heads up, and possibly to mingle with you commons. No promises, though.

[Pomegranate]

Shasta: Sorry. I'll get these right eventually. The images in my head get clearer all the time.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I don't know that I agree with this - generally that leads to...

3) Deciding "we can't afford to waste a lynch on a submarine - if they win they don't deserve it" and moving on.

Heh, yeah, guess it does usually turn out that way.

I like the points in Shasta's post, and therefor, barring something unforseen, won't vote for him today.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Come on, Boro. Do you really think submarines should be allowed to just lie low while the loudmouths duke it out? It's pretty difficult to get a handle on people when they either don't post, or stick to banter.

No. I've actually had this convo with tp (and I think Agan?) before. It's increasingly difficult to do much of anything if there's a bunch of fluff posting. And it used to be a great wolfy tactic because when a village gets loaded with people like tp, Nog, Agan, Sauce, Eomer, myself...and etc there were some pretty epic firestorms. And the pack could sit back, let us lynch eachother off, or maybe one of them would be a wolf to stir the entire pot.

Ah well, that trip down WW memory doesn't help much...but maybe I just need a good spar again...any takers?

Thing to realize is though, it's been changing for a while now, and there is more quiet and watch than active pot-stirrers. I mean, thankfully Inzil I never feel like you're submarining, but I also wouldn't classify you into the dwindling list of loud blabberers either. You've got a style that suits you, good, hopefully you like and enjoy it.

Point being here, hope sally doesn't mind if I use her as an example. She's really not that hard to figure out, and she definitely posts a lot but feels more inclined to amuse the mod, and if innocent, obviously will help by figuring out who's judgement she can trust and hopefully that leads to lynching wolves. But she'll always for the most part, keep whatever her thoughts are secret, until she figures out who's trustworthy and who isn't. Same thing, she's got a style, it suits her and hopefully she enjoys it.

I guess someone's got to try to get more activity out of the submarines? I gave up on that many years ago. Good luck. But don't confuse quiet behavior with blatant unhelpfulness. You know as well as I do, BNs need to give off an impression of being contributive and helping.

In the end, Agan's comment to Greenie is quite appropriate:

Boro is never genuine. No matter what his role, he always has something up his sleeve and is no good to trust.

Sad, but true. Not-trusting me is probably the smartest thing she's ever done. Although our history is a bit different, since her first wolvish game...against the counsels of her pack-mate Mith, I conned her into attacking me. Our WW-relationship is totally built on distrust...it's a lovely thing.

Thing is, in a pack environment, if necessary I will always take the noose to serve the better benefit of the pack...and that means the innocents can never trust me. But you also know, by now, that I will ruthlessly go after packmates if it will make me look better and more trusty to the village...therefor mates are silly if they trust me.

In an individual environment, I rarely ever want to be lynched...I mean seriously who likes that? But being able only to trust my own mind, again, I will do whatever necessary to save my innocent and pretty neck. Which means, who ever wants to tango, better bring a sword, because I do bring swords to dance offs.

[Boromir88]

I suppose I should look at the G55 business of Day 1, since I'm kind of kicking myself for not being in a position to possibly save her from the noose, and seeing as she turned out to be Anborn, her posts will be the most trusty to follow and innocent intentions.

Aye, that's the rub. You can only truly trust someone once they're dead, but it's a bad dilemma because lynching someone to see if you can actually trust them is completely counter-productive.

Seriously, though it's appallingly silly this place is coasting along, seemingly fine with the fact Anborn was lynched.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

OK, lets go over Galadriel's activity then.
Lets meet back here in 30-45 minutes with our thoughts.

(Just saying that I am here and should remain so until deadline)

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Shasta

I'm going to ignore that comment for now, save for one of my own about stones and glass houses

.

Is this your way of trying to play nice with me for a game? Because you know that will not happen, especially since I will never trust you in WW after our games at Bostonmoot. I'm not saying that I'm going to go and vote you for having been silent yesterDay, because that would make me a hypocrite, which you oh so subtly pointed out. But I wouldn't mind hearing your own reasonings for voting G55.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Eh? I'm not really sure what you're saying here, because it looks like you're agreeing with Boro in one breath and then suspecting him in the next.

1) Nowhere did I say I believed him innocent. If anything, I have less trust for Boro in these games then I have for you.

2) I agreed with him in thinking this pack is confident and bold. Which is Boro in a nutshell. We would be crazy to fully trust him. And yet, I did not outwardly say that I suspect him. I was pointing out a fact: Boro likes to steer conversations to his own benefit, much like tp, only with less ego. Noggins death on Night 2 is sure to be a conversation starter for numerous reasons, and one that a BN Boro could start and steer in any direction he chooses.

3) I also mentioned Sally in that post, or did you miss that?

Originally Posted by Shasta

This is an issue I have every game - I don't understand why people decide not to look at the information that's right in front of them. Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

Originally Posted by Bom

from Shasta, I do believe the problem is: what information? Nog made a total of four posts, all substance-less with the exception of a statement that he thinks both Boro and Agan innocent. No suspicions, and nobody suspected him.

I am definitely more inclined to agree with Shasta in this regard. True, Nog himself hasn't left us much to go on. But the Nightly death is always how we get the ball rolling the next Day as well as who voted for the lynchee the Day before. True, it will be harder for us to try and make any semblance of an informed opinion on Nog due to lack of information, but it's always been work with what you have, no matter how little information you have.

EDIT: Xed with Boro and Rune, who I will join with in looking over G55 having not done so myself in my read throughs.

[A Little Green]

First off, sorry I'm here this late! I have less time than I had counted on, but I'll do my best.

Now, the first thing that surprises me: we lynched a Gifted yesterDay (sadly, that's not the surprising part ) and yet I see very little discussion of how that came about. Sure, innocents make mistakes all the time, but I'll eat my hat if the Galwagon comprised only of innocent villagers. I'll have a look at it in a bit.

Originally Posted by Boro

Basically my head is about to explode with "do I continue pursuing Agan or is everyone right, that she's innocent too."

The whole of that post was rather curious, but this part especially - basically you make it sound like your pursuing Agan is an act, something you do, instead of a belief in her guilt. Now I understand your jump on her yesterDay was partly to fish for reactions, well, you did that. Won't work any more now you've come clean with it. Therefore, if you're innocent your dilemma looks pretty straightforward: if you actually suspect Agan, pursue her. If you don't, then don't (unless there's some further scheming involved, in which case go ahead. )

Originally Posted by Glirdy

*goes to airport to fly to everyone's house just to tell them to start posting*

Aww, make sure to drop by!


EDIT: x-ed with Boro, Runne and Glirdy

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It would appear that our main source will be post 60, in which Galadriel makes a list of her thoughts about the participants so far. Her main suspects are Inziladun and I, but she does not have specific case againt me. Inziladun she finds is commenting on things without actually getting involved and this she finds unnerving.



According to the post Galadriel seems to have been a bit uneasy about Aganzir and Pommy as well, although it is of quite vague nature. She does think that Boromir raises a good case against Aganzir, but not good enough for any action to be taken. Pommy is identified as a person that are merely repeating what others have said rather than coming up with theories of her own; she is given benefit of the doubt.


Especially the suspicion against Aganzir seems vague, when you take into consideration that later on Galadriel sort of defends Aganzir in post 49. Also it is around this time Galadriels posts becomes focused on Aganzir’s Serious-Joke list, a concept she never comes to grip with.



It seems clear that Galadriel identified BN behaviour as being active, but non-committing. Since I have also been accused for such behaviour, it would mean that most of the people she seemed uneasy about could be put in this category.

In theory she was right, it is a tactic that has been used a fair few times by evil doers. So there. . . a bit of advice from beyond the grave.


I will try to look a bit closer at Inziladun and maybe look at the voting pattern, though I am normally not very good at analysing the later.

Edit: Crossed with Glirdy and Greenie.

[Aganzir]

Sorry for being late. School happened, and a good book, and painting (I helped a friend finish a piece called 'Two Limes Waiting for a Bus in the Rain After a Rave'). And then I came home and had to spare a minute or two for Benjen Stark who appeared on Lommy's computer screen about the moment I stepped through the door.

Lottie, here's a song for you. It has made me think of you ever since I first heard it, but I've never remembered to post it to you.

Gal, I'm sorry. I was reading your posts with thoughts "She seems somehow jumpy... but in a different way from last game, where she was a gifted!" and even though your last posts made me vaguely uneasy with the course I had decided to take, I didn't want to drop it because, you know, Black Númenoreans want to live too.

And I also disapprove of the Nog kill as I happen to disapprove of no trace kills in general (at least if they involve a player who's normally vocal and helpful, to the extent Nog can be said to be helpful ).

Originally Posted by Boro

Confident pack of wolves it would seem.

A coward pack, I'd say. If Nog was still alive, we could at least have deduced he wasn't a BN.

Originally Posted by Boro

That is what has me worried the most at the moment...that is there seems to be a lot of "Agan and Boro are probably both innocent" going around. It could easily be true, of course, but that seems to be the same conclusion everyone's reached, which is kind of strange...Agan, what do you think?

The options are, the wolves know we're both innocent, or you're a wolf and know I'm innocent. Of course we could both be wolves, and that would be awesome, but unfortunately it isn't the case (next time we'll totally do this). If option A is correct, either the wolves are not among those who've concluded we're innocent, or they want to keep a low profile and play nice with us. In any case, it would be more useful for them to set us against each other.
If Boro is a wolf, he may have several goals: try to exonerate himself by staging a row with an innocent, drag me down with him, trick me into believing he has a masterplan I could help with, get a lot of "a wolf wouldn't do that" kind of attention... you name it.
I know Boro is up to something, but that isn't anything unusual because as I said, he's never idle in WW. I just haven't decided yet if he's Gary Oldman before or after he was bitten (in other words, for those who are too ignorant to cultivate themselves with Elvish arts, I'm not sure whether the something he's up to is good or evil).
In any case, it worries me that Boro is so very conscious about the fact that several people think we're both innocent. It's a pre-emptive defence of sorts, and reminds me of saying "This is not a very good painting yet, the shading is bad here and I have to get these colours fixed there" before the teacher manages to comment on it, just so no one can say you weren't aware you were doing something wrong, if you know what I mean. There's also a risk the seed of doubt he's sowing ("everyone thinks Agan is innocent ai ai ai this is fishy or is it yes no yes no!") bears fruit and he manages to turn people against me when we can't afford to lynch many innocents.

Originally Posted by Boro

Basically my head is about to explode with "do I continue pursuing Agan or is everyone right, that she's innocent too."

If you trust everyone (with three BN's among them) rather than your innocent instincts that spotted the classic BN trick in my first post, then you had better continue pursuing me pretty soon before I can convince the said everyone to consider me innocent beyond any doubt. But rest assured, I'll make sure your head explodes.
As for the tanlines, do you honestly think there were pictures that did not show your tanlines?

Originally Posted by Inzil

You know, there's a way to avoid tan lines you could try. That is, as long as there's a couple hundred miles between us.

:--D

I've got a vaguely uneasy feeling about Lottie, but I think it might have more to do with the aforementioned song which my ipod has deemed appropriate to play several times during the last few days. However, as I believe I said yesterday, I don't think her reaction to her early Gal comment is very incriminating. I would've been baffled too if I had been basically caught quoting what someone else had said.

Originally Posted by Inzil

It's worth noting again how quickly Nate/Pom (did we ever decide on which nick was the favorite?) has gotten the hang of this. Could be a sign of a sharp, natural player, but a more sinister reason has to be at least considered.

She's a Finn. Nuff said?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

*goes to airport to fly to everyone's house just to tell them to start posting*

You here soon? We've some leftover food in the fridge!

I'd actually also like to hear more from sally and Bom. I get irritated when people don't post, and want them dead just for that reason, and they may turn out to be gifteds and then I'm embarrassed. Anyway it's 3-8 at the moment, and if we lynch two more innocents we're pretty much screwed. It's hard when you can afford neither to keep submarines around nor lynch them.
And if the submarines are easy targets for the wolves, so are the people who want to lynch them!

Originally Posted by Boro

Anyway, he seems genuinely not used to this many submarines and fluff posters.

There has always been submarines. Always.

It's funny that now that people are starting to suspect Inzil, I find myself wanting to stand up to his defence. For no other reason than that he's being suspected, and I'm not particularly suspicious of him. My brain keeps finding new ways to surprise me.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

I second Bom - what information? I think everything that could've been said about him was already said, and I don't hold against Inzil his reluctance to go through it again.

Originally Posted by Boro

But don't confuse quiet behavior with blatant unhelpfulness. You know as well as I do, BNs need to give off an impression of being contributive and helping.

And yet quiet wolves slip under everybody's radar and win the game every now and then without even appearing very helpful. It might be their style, but it's my - and several others' - style to not ignore them and keep the threat of being lynched above their heads if they remain non-vocal. One of my principles in WW is that if you don't post, I'm entitled to vote for you without further explanation if the mood strikes me. And in a small game, I'd consider two days' quiet behaviour to be blatantly unhelpful, but maybe that's just me.

Originally Posted by Boro

Not-trusting me is probably the smartest thing she's ever done.

Changing in-game personas now, are we? Try to get my head chopped off, and I'll go back and take you for a certain wolf hunter, one-handed.

Originally Posted by Boro

Although our history is a bit different, since her first wolvish game...against the counsels of her pack-mate Mith, I conned her into attacking me. Our WW-relationship is totally built on distrust...it's a lovely thing.

Don't take all the credit for yourself - I was following a careful plan which, unfortunately, turned out to be built on a wrong assumption! Attacking you was a mistake, but one that had very little to do with your endearing show of advertising how well you cook, if you see what I mean.

Originally Posted by Boro

But you also know, by now, that I will ruthlessly go after packmates if it will make me look better and more trusty to the village...therefor mates are silly if they trust me.

Ah so this is why you've been going after me all this time!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

On the matter of Inziladun; Galadriel is quite right in her observations. At the time she writes post #60 Inziladun’s contributions have been helpful, but only on subjects like emoticons and names, and could very well be a cautious BN. However later Inzil does start to produce posts with more substance and the effort does start to look more genuine (#81 and #110). However it is curious how Sally is being mentioned as a possible lynch candidate and BomT isn’t, maybe Inzil knows something I don’t about their normal behaviour, but to me they were both “submarines”. Another odd thing is the vote for Galadriel, sure Inzil points out that the case against Galadriel has merit, but also says that it would be “too easy” and considers it a good BN strategy.


This leaves me with a few questions, why not go for BomT when it became clear that Sally was not a realistic option?

On the other hand I also have to ask, would a BN point out that it was “too easy” to vote Galadriel? Seems unlikely unless it was an attempt to send a message.

Crossed with Aganzir

[A Little Green]

All right, had a look at the Gal-wagon.

Unless I missed something, the whole suspicion of Gal started with first Agan and then Lottie both accusing her of jumpiness. Pom agrees with them. Lottie momentarily backtracks when finding out Agan had the same argument in almost precisely the same phrasing.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I did notice something that G55 said earlier that reminds me terribly of a ploy I've used as a wolf - near the beginning, she tried to get people to drop the subject in a "okay, done, move it along folks, nothing to see here" kind of way. That much is just an observation, but I know it's something I've done as a wolf when I felt like too much heat was about to be focused my way.

Shasta comes up with a new argument against Gal, which looks more or less valid even though it's proven wrong now.

Bom then defends Gal:

Nice G55 just seems to want answers and avoid misunderstandings (nasty, nassssty misunderstandings) to me - so would we, were we less busy reveling in the chaos.

Originally Posted by Lottie

G55 still tips my wolf-dar, partially because of the jumpy thing earlier (I know it's probably a pick-up from Agan's post, but that doesn't make it any less valid a point) and partially because her posts so far seem like they're contributing, but when you look closer, they aren't actually that helpful

Lottie returns to her old argument and adds a new one. I'm really torn about this. It would be kind of an odd move for a BN, this very open backtracking and then backtracking again, but then again, I could see an evil Lottie noticing how popular the Gal-suspicion was growing and deciding to follow it after all.

Originally Posted by Agan

Gal. I didn't really mind her until her sudden and desperate interest in my list which is just weird. What does it really matter?

I'm not exactly sure of the validity of this argument. I mean, yes, it was kind of odd of Gal to focus so strongly on Agan's list, but I've yet to discover how it made her look suspicious.

Originally Posted by Sally

So, Galwolfriel, what are your plans for the Night?

This, I think, is a rather odd one-liner from Sally.

Originally Posted by Agan

Ah so we face the hard decision: should we vote for a suspicious-ish (and with day 1 reasons at that) loud player, or a submarine?

Personally I quite like to sink submarines, but once I've got it into my head that someone is suspicious, they will keep irking me until I know for sure.

Agan is agonizing.

Originally Posted by Rune

Voting Potential:
Galadriel55: My suspicion is based on the arguments of Lottie, Shasta and my own initial annoyance. The jumpiness/many but not very helpful posts, mixed with the attempts to dismiss one discussion, whilst on the same time going on and on about Aganzir’s silly/serious post does present a case. That being said I she is right now the one I am least likely to vote for, because none of the above are very incriminating and because she has shown willingness to participate and move the debate forward (to some degree).

Rune effectively summarizes the case against Gal, agrees with it, and says he isn't likely to vote for her anyway.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I don't recall ever seeing G55 mention the whole "dismissal" thing, even though I mentioned it twice. It may have gotten lost in the shuffle, but even so...

++G55

Shasta is the first to vote Gal. Not sure what the "dismissal" mentioned here is. Clarification please?

Lottie votes Gal next, x-posting with Shasta.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I can see the merits of the G55 suspicion, though I also agree with Greenie that G55 has been a frequent target for the baddies to lynch. I might vote for her, though it seems too easy somehow.

Inzil is wavering...

Originally Posted by Agan

I feel your pain.

...and Agan agonizes some more. She also says she finds Inzil innocent.

Originally Posted by Sally

Bom or Galadriel. Opinions?

Sally agonizes too, except she doesn't look like she's in much of an agony.

Agan, finished with her agonizing, votes Gal. I don't like this vote a whole lot; I don't really understand Agan's point against Gal, and the timing of the vote as well as the hesitation before it look a little too convenient to my taste.

Zil votes Gal, too:

Looks worse than Lottie, I hate voting Bom Day 1, and it doesn't look like I'll have any takers on Sally. I'll not waste my vote.

Others have expressed concern over this particular vote, and I can see why. It's very similar to Agan's, in both timing and the almost over-the-top hesitancy. I doubt they're BNs together, wouldn't be surprised if one of them is.

Sally, meanwhile, ends up voting Bom. This doesn't look any better to me than Agan and Inzil, though. In fact, I'm rather uneasy with how she first popped in that joking one-liner about Galwolfriel, enhancing everyone's image of Gal as a possible wolf; then made sure people know she might vote Gal, so the other potential Gal-voters knew their votes weren't going to be throwaways; and finally voting Bom instead of the more-or-less certain lynch Gal, so as to keep her hands clean.

Lottie and Shasta are the ones who seem most certain of Gal's guilt. This makes them look slightly better to me; though Lottie's double Legate-180 still makes her look fishy. Agan brings up new points against Gal, hesitates a lot, then is the third to vote her. Inzil is diplomatic and undecided and also ends up voting Gal at a crucial point. Rune is a bit like Sally (and I bet he loves the comparison) in that he agrees with the Gal case but doesn't go with it. His reasons for doing this look a bit better than Sally's, though.

Based on this, I feel worst about Agan and Sally, and bad about Inzil and Lottie.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Rune

[A Little Green]

One further point concerning the Galwagon: while I'm pretty sure there is at least one wolf among that lot, I'm equally sure that at least one wolf kept their nose well clean of the whole Gal business. But since I don't have time to read all of yesterDay now, they'll have to wait.

Warning: I need to be in bed in half an hour so I'm going to vote rather soon. Right now I'm thinking of going for either Agan or Sally. Thoughts?

[Inziladun]

There's been some good stuff that's come about here in the recent few hours, but no time to line-by-line respond.
I'm off work on holiday. However, in addition to my 8 year old, I'm currently having to keep an eye on her 6 year old cousin as well. Not an environment conducive to WW.

YesterDay I did put G55 and Bom in somewhat of the same boat. There didn't seem to be a lot of substance, and both do tend to be easy targets. It seems like Bom gets more early votes though as a rule, and it's at the point that I just don't like voting for him Day 1. I agree that it's a habit I should probably get out of, but there it is.

And Boro, I usually find Sally unnerving for all the reasons you cite. She usually does have a lot of amusing stuff going, and that's one of the reasons this game is so much fun here.
However, this particular time around it just had a different feel, hence my lukewarm desire to vote for her.

I would put Bom and Sally in the same category toDay. Very under the radar and hardly even visible. Could vote for either, if nothing better comes to mind.

x/d with Greenie

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

One further point concerning the Galwagon: while I'm pretty sure there is at least one wolf among that lot, I'm equally sure that at least one wolf kept their nose well clean of the whole Gal business. But since I don't have time to read all of yesterDay now, they'll have to wait.

Warning: I need to be in bed in half an hour so I'm going to vote rather soon. Right now I'm thinking of going for either Agan or Sally. Thoughts?

I'd say Sally over Agan. I've seen enough of the latter to at least have something to go on, and I still don't think she seems evil.