WW LX - Mortal Men, doomed to die

[satansaloser2005]

Awwww, Kath! *hugs her, or would if she wasn't dead* To think Nilp and I return to this. The poor dear!


K, which one of you did it and why?


(I'm going to go look at her posts and see what I can find, but be patient since I need to work on my paper that's due tomorrow.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, well. Kath... I think she was not very active yesterDay, was she? I will take a look at her posts more in detail, but my initial impression is that she was not very active, so possibly she has been picked to leave no tracks. I will take a look...

Anyway, another thing to consider might be yesterDay's voting. Basically, there were several choices at the beginning - and by the way, I would hope that toDay we will avoid randomness anymore - but perhaps there may be something determined from the latter voting - though not sure. Because in fact, the decisive voting happened in the last-minute voting fray and in a bit of unclear situation. Kath herself voted for Isabell at the moment when it became equal... I think there can be hardly anything as a reason for kill. So that would really look like a safe kill.

Whatever. I shall look now and see, also if other people manage to show around. I don't think I will be around for a long time now, but if I go to sleep earlier, I should be able to post perhaps also in the morning (my time), at least a bit.

[wilwarin538]

Here and reading, be back shortly with thoughts...

[Kent2010]

Changes from yesterday, I no longer suspect Rune. After further thought, and looking through his posts, just by the way he went after Nogrod pretty good yesterday he looks innocent. Nogrod seems to be a player that wolves would let be, and let him do his own thing, someone they would not want to tangle with unless he became too big of a problem. It could be contrived, but the way Rune went after Nogrod early on yesterday does not seem evil.

Anyways I guess it comes down to my use of the word "random"
-Rune

For me, it really was not the word random, although I did question how Eomer said it was the only one of the bunch that made sense if you yourself said it was '98% random.' It looked more like slapping on a general label (saying Izzy's first post was careful) just said it looked like you had some reason to it. However, Izzy's posts further in the day definitely did look careful.

My only question is why Izzy, why not wilwarin? The way she explained her vote as Legate said made it look like she was voting to not look suspicious and not necessarily the person she most suspected. Also, post 61 just has careful written all over it.

My other question (for everyone to start the day), what is with the multiple people saying "If I live," "If I stay alive...," or similar words?

In post 39 Brinn says "shall I survive..."
Shasta in 42 says"If I live..." and promises to do more today
wilwarin in 51 says "If I make it"
and
Izzy in 86 said "If I am still alive..."

Izzy turned out to be a known innocent, but Ijust don't like these types of phrases, because it just seems unecessary, or at least unnecessary at this point of the game. If the person who says it is a wolf, it looks like a clever way to protect yourself from a lynch because it reads as "I am going to do more tomorrow, and see I am already thinking ahead...IF I survive!" I am curious to what others think about this, maybe it's just that I still don't know the 'lingo,' or is it something more evil?

And I have completely flipped about Nogrod - more later...if I am still alive! (I just couldn't resist the melodrama.)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

1) Mentions no-one.

2) Thinks Nogrod should be fairer on her but no big deal really.

3) Thinks that people should lay off Nogrod.

4) Her list post:

She has a good feeling about yous truly, Eomer.

She has a bad feeling about Shasta.

5) Asks for vote tally.

6) Votes Isabellkya, finding her last post suspicious. Here's Izzy's post:

A three way tie. I'm tempted to leave it this way.
Because tie's are always fun to watch get rolled.

Then it would be a more random Day one lynching.

Now, don't jump on me for saying this, but the only way the Wraiths think she was the Seer is because she listed everyone and said that she has a good feeling about precisely one of them: and that's Eomer. I don't consider her bad feeling about Shasta to indicate Seer-dom because it was a straight-forward vote-based criticism that anyone could have made.

Now, I always think of finding the Seer first so those are my first thoughts. It could just be that she leaves no trail whatsoever, but I'm never sure Wraiths would kill like that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, so basically Kath has said really nothing much, except replying to Nogrod once or twice and voting, and only in her post #103 she says something about everyone - but it seems to me that not to much conclusions. She more or less rather states on who is doing what, but does not make many conclusions - it seems also that she's been in a hurry to vote before DL yet, so she could not elaborate more. Anyway, my opinion after going through this and thinking about it would be indeed that she was picked to leave no tracks. Can't think of anything better.

[Eönwë]

Kath?

Now the only reason I can think of her death is, as has already been stated, that she hasn't left any strong trails (I'm going to reread her posts after this just in case). She also doesn't seem to have stood out too much in Day 1, at least to my mind, which would probably make her a typical Night 1 kill.

This most upsetting, because not only was she one of us innocents, but she was also the only one who came from my far country.

Hmm.... what have you others who have not shown your faces to say to this horrendous murder?

edit: x-ed with Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

My other question (for everyone to start the day), what is with the multiple people saying "If I live," "If I stay alive...," or similar words?

In post 39 Brinn says "shall I survive..."
Shasta in 42 says"If I live..." and promises to do more today
wilwarin in 51 says "If I make it"
and
Izzy in 86 said "If I am still alive..."

Izzy turned out to be a known innocent, but Ijust don't like these types of phrases, because it just seems unecessary, or at least unnecessary at this point of the game. If the person who says it is a wolf, it looks like a clever way to protect yourself from a lynch because it reads as "I am going to do more tomorrow, and see I am already thinking ahead...IF I survive!" I am curious to what others think about this, maybe it's just that I still don't know the 'lingo,' or is it something more evil?

Well, Kent, my personal opinion would be that it is a bit of a slang and people sometimes say it (even I know I did in some games) - however it is true that one can never know, as it might be used by a Wraith to sort of try to seem "oh, I just hope they won't kill me toNight" - well of course they won't, when it's one of them...

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Now, don't jump on me for saying this, but the only way the Wraiths think she was the Seer is because she listed everyone and said that she has a good feeling about precisely one of them: and that's Eomer. I don't consider her bad feeling about Shasta to indicate Seer-dom because it was a straight-forward vote-based criticism that anyone could have made.

Now, I always think of finding the Seer first so those are my first thoughts. It could just be that she leaves no trail whatsoever, but I'm never sure Wraiths would kill like that.

Okay, that sounds a bit too far-fetched to me, in my opinion. Kath's list seems more unclear than clear to me, although it is possible that the Wraiths have thought in such a way as you write, but in my opinion that's quite complicated thought. Mainly, it presupposes one thing - that you are innocent, and also that the Wraiths would think the way you do. Unless you are using this yourself to make us (in a rather complicated way) believe that you are innocent while you are Wraith, I won't give it much credit, personally. It does not make much sense to me to say that (even if you were a Wraith, because it is so complicated...).

Anyway, I will be here just for a while now probably and then go to sleep... so see you in some time then, probably.

[Nogrod]

I have an early morning call tomorrow so I will just make a few points now. I'll be back later on toDay.

About Kath.

She really was more active on Day1 like in ages (she normally posts once or not at all on Day1 and then explains on Day2 she had forgotten / had other stuff / was late etc. - I mean that for real: she has done that like twenty times, it's her tactics of getting through Day1's). So that sudden activity yesterDay made me think she could be a ringwraith... which she most clearly wasn't. But if the baddies thought along the same lines then this is the result; as she was no baddie then they thought she was a gifted of some sort willing to play more actively for that (not to be lynched fex.).

Her posts don't look too seerish to me unless Eomer is one of the culprits - which he of course has neatly tried to counter already toDay. But they might have thought her any gifted - and as people have said, there's not too much a track her death will leave. So a reasonable kill from the baddie's point of view.


About Sally.

I still have a bad feeling about her due to her actions yesterDay and her first post toDay doesn't make her look any less suspicious. On the contrary. The half playful tone of the lament feels false and looks foul.


About Rune.

Anyway Rune manages to be my top suspect right now with a slight margin over Sally.

Now there's nothing bad in one getting back to posting before the DL after one has said he has no possibility for that and has therefore voted early. No problem with that. No problem whatsoever (eg. this is no sarcasm but a plain fact). It's good people can get back and try to help in the voting-process even if they have themselves voted already in a game of no retractions.

But what did Rune actually do there in the end of the Day? Well he defended himself - even if no one had made any strong suspicions on him or none was actually entertaining the idea of lynching him (except for Kent that is).

And then like twenty minutes before the deadline, with all the hair-raising last minute hassle to come, he just backs away never to show his face anymore on that Day.

That is the blunder the wolves (and cobblers) do time and time again: when the lynch is going nicely from their POV they just lean back and relax - and try to be careful not to mess with anything controversial in the end of the Day. But that non-involvement is exactly the thing that betrays them. It has not been just once or twice this has happened. And this looks like a case straight out from the "Werewolf-handbook of catching the villains".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Actually, hey, Eomer...

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

4) Her list post:

She has a good feeling about yous truly, Eomer.

She has a bad feeling about Shasta.

...really? Because it certainly does not seem to me like that. Unless I missed something, she says only:

Originally Posted by Kath

Eomer - I love the first post. That said, banter. Ha, Eomer thought the same about Leggy's speaky uppy bit. Fair point about Nog. Keen on Eomer right now, he's thinking along the same lines. Probably means he's a wolf but there you go. Doesn't like wilwa's reasons for eliminating people, fair enough. List. Innocent: Shasta, Nilp, Rune. Guilty: Brinn, wilwa, Legate, Nienna. Ish. Feels there are dodgy votes, but then they were the early votes, and they're usually pretty odd.

Shasta - banter. Votes Nog with no reasoning. Not keen. If you can vote you can give a reason. I don't care if it's a rubbish reason but I want one.

Which, both of that, does not indicate anything strong for me. She maybe indicates feeling a bit good about you in some way, but it's promptly eliminated by "probably means he's a wolf..." - certainly in such a way that it'd be quite weird, I think, to take it as Seerish hint.

The same with Shasta - "not keen" is not any clear judgement for me.

I think you are reaching too far.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog

[wilwarin538]

A list:

Izzy - 35: says day ones are difficult, shouldn't find people guilty for being their usual day 1 selves, 69: not worried about Nog, agrees the RPing should stop, 77: thought Legate was being silly about the Nilp vote, 86: made a list, 98: talks about her possible vote, 107: the reason for her death, wants to keep the tie, after Nog doesn't like that, votes Sally....dies, is innocent

Kath - #17: says hi, 40: points out that she said morrow and not Morrow, 82: confused about possible Nogrod bandwagon, 103: nice long list, 111: votes Izzy cause of "the post"....dies, is innocent

Nienna - #24: says hi, will be back, has no inclinations since it is Day 1, 37: defends herself to Nogrod, says she wants to participate more in this game, 80: votes Sally because of her Nog vote

Kent - #12: introduces his character to Legate, 16: wants to make a deal with Legate, 63: pretty random comments, but long, 78: votes Rune,

Legate - #6: describes how he is familiar with some and not with others, says there isn't much to say Day 1 but wants people to talk, 8: says Eomer is disrespectful, then says that's not really important, 9: comment on Shasta's post, 11: calls Eomer a terrible person, 13: comments on Kent, then says everyone should try to say more important things, 15: repeats that, 23: happy there is discussion, will be back later, is optimistic, 44: nice long list, so not rewriting all that, 59: thinks people should stop RPing, doesn't like my vote reasoning, doesn't like Nilp's vote (though he almost always does that, if he didn't then we should worry), keeping an eye on Sally, 65/66: blur for everyone, except feels good about Eomer and Legate, 70: says he's never played with me, when he has once, but doesn't like my reasoning either, 94: considers voting Izzy, 97: votes Izzy, seems to expect a bangwagon

Nogrod -#18: jumps down Kath's throat about her not coming back til toMorrow, when she meant her RL morrow then random pirate jibberish and such, 21: doesn't like that Kent tried to make a deal with Legate, calls Eomer hasty, says he will vote for a "non-participater", 25: makes some lists, says again he will vote for a 0 poster, thinks Legate innocent, 28: goes on a long rant about Nienna, 30: responds to Rune's dislike, says "suspect" numerous times, 31: says he loves Eomer, 67: doesn't really like any of the votes so far, 81: comments on all the votes so far, 92: wants to vote Sally for bandwagoning on him, 95: wants people to talk, 117: votes Sally too late

Shasta - #7: shock, 32: one liner, calls Nogrod a rat, 42: votes Nogrod

Nerwen - #33: agrees with her "husband", says they shouldn't trust the sorceror (yikes), 50: seems to be suspicious of Brinn, 57: now suspicious of me as well, and all my sorcery and such,

Wilwa - #20: talk about random stuff and how Day 1 is so hard, 51: try to use my most logical reasoning possible to try to find someone to randomly vote for, comes down to Legate or Eomer, coin toss for Eomer, 61: defend my reasoning

Nilp - #46: wants to elope with Sally, 47: surprise surprise, votes himself

Rune - #22: random comments, 27: doesn't like Nogrod's 25 post either, says he will probably vote for him, 41: says Nog is being aggressive, 48: likes Legate's list, 49: makes a little list, votes Izzy, 76: defends himself and a couple others, 89: defends his vote choice

Lhuna - #34: likes Eomer, calls Nogrod abrasive, Legate rubs her the wrong way, 62: thinks Nog and Eomer innocent, worried about Legate and Shasta, ok with Brinn, doesn't like Sally's reaction to Brinn, 64: votes Legate

Eomer - #5: doesn't care if we all die, 10: random, 14: random comment on something Legate said, 19: comments on Nogrod, kinda likes his approach but kinda doesn't, 26: doesn't like Noggy's post in 25, 29: calls Nogrod a zealot, says he will vote for someone who wants friends, says humbug, 45: seems to be leaning towards Nogrod, 52: doesn't think my vote was reasonable, 53: quick little list, 56: talks about votes so far, 85: agrees with Rune's vote, 101: quick comments on all the votes, 105: wants to save Nog, will vote for Izzy or Sally, 112: simply votes Izzy

Groin - nothing

Sally - #36: a little list of everyone who's spoken, pretty random comments that had already been spoken, 43: says she would vote Nogrod over Rune, 58: agrees to elop with Nilp, votes Nogrod

Eönwë - #72: sticks his head in quickly, 83: something about "ph" and "f", considering making a list, 88: seems to be suggesting that Brinn and Sally could be wraiths, 96: keeps on about the Greek letter phi (which can represent both "ph" and "f", just to clear that up), 115: also votes Izzy

Brinniel - #38: says she never has much to say on Day 1 and that this time is no different, 39: uses logic similar to mine and votes Sally

Wow, that was hard. Ok.....give me a little bit to ponder, then I'll be back with my actual oppinions. This really helped me get organised....

[Nogrod]

Oh, and by the way, Izzy kind of made her own death-warrant with her third-last minute post of wishing to have a threeway-tie.

Kath (a known innocent), Eomer and Eönwë jumped to it - as I thought of doing as well for a moment (when I counted I was not myself in danger any more I dared to try Sally hoping for other last minute votes for her against Izzy whom I didn't feel that suspicious - even counting that terrible comment). It gives the two a nice shield to defend their vote so if one of them is a wolf Izzy gave them a free ticket to hide there.

And Legate, if you're still around, you were talking about suspecting Sally, Wilwa, Eomer and Izzy like half of the Day - with no especially good "cases" against anyone of them (well, who has good cases on Day1 anyway?). But then you seemed to reverse yourself to a one-track-mind behaviour only concentrating on Izzy on the last hours and voting for her safely before the hassle in the end. I may be grasping at straws here but why did you stop suspecting the other three? Why weren't you entertaining the others as possible lynchees? Why did you tihnk Izzy more suspicious than Sally fex.?

Okay. To bed now...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

Changes from yesterday, I no longer suspect Rune. After further thought, and looking through his posts, just by the way he went after Nogrod pretty good yesterday he looks innocent. Nogrod seems to be a player that wolves would let be, and let him do his own thing, someone they would not want to tangle with unless he became too big of a problem. It could be contrived, but the way Rune went after Nogrod early on yesterday does not seem evil.


For me, it really was not the word random, although I did question how Eomer said it was the only one of the bunch that made sense if you yourself said it was '98% random.' It looked more like slapping on a general label (saying Izzy's first post was careful) just said it looked like you had some reason to it. However, Izzy's posts further in the day definitely did look careful.

My only question is why Izzy, why not wilwarin? The way she explained her vote as Legate said made it look like she was voting to not look suspicious and not necessarily the person she most suspected. Also, post 61 just has careful written all over it.

Why not Wilwa?

I don't know. . .I am quite indifferent about Wilwa, I have absolutely no opinion about her. (In the game)

Anyways I like the way you question everything, it is refreshing.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

About Rune.

Anyway Rune manages to be my top suspect right now with a slight margin over Sally.

Now there's nothing bad in one getting back to posting before the DL after one has said he has no possibility for that and has therefore voted early. No problem with that. No problem whatsoever (eg. this is no sarcasm but a plain fact). It's good people can get back and try to help in the voting-process even if they have themselves voted already in a game of no retractions.

But what did Rune actually do there in the end of the Day? Well he defended himself - even if no one had made any strong suspicions on him or none was actually entertaining the idea of lynching him (except for Kent that is).

And then like twenty minutes before the deadline, with all the hair-raising last minute hassle to come, he just backs away never to show his face anymore on that Day.

That is the blunder the wolves (and cobblers) do time and time again: when the lynch is going nicely from their POV they just lean back and relax - and try to be careful not to mess with anything controversial in the end of the Day. But that non-involvement is exactly the thing that betrays them. It has not been just once or twice this has happened. And this looks like a case straight out from the "Werewolf-handbook of catching the villains".

Look everyone, Nogrod suspects me! This is the closest thing to proof of my innocens you will ever get.

Anyways I cannot defend my self against his arguments, because it is based on when I post and not what I post. He is actually right in some way, because I did sit back and followed end of the day. I had very little to say and it was not extremely important for me who was lynched, as long as it was not me.

EDIT: Cross posted with Nogrod

[Nogrod]

I was just going to turn the PC off when I saw this one...

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Look everyone, Nogrod suspects me! This is the closest thing to proof of my innocens you will ever get.

Anyways I cannot defend my self against his arguments, because it is based on when I post and not what I post. He is actually right in some way, because I did sit back and followed end of the day. I had very little to say and it was not extremely important for me who was lynched, as long as it was not me.

Wrong (the bolded part), as you yourself kind of admit in the follow-up. You seem to forget the important part of what you did there in the end of the Day... you defended yourself for nonexistent threats. Which is the way the baddies see the world: threats everywhere and everyone ready to lynch them. And really, I don't know about you but at least I'm very much interested in who gets lynched even if I'm not myself in danger (which is rare indeed). Innocents have a common cause and insecurity about how the lynchings go. The baddies know the different outcomes in advance and in a good situation they can sit back and relax. Which I think you were doing - and which you even admit.

Trust me, I have caught a number of wolves from that behaviour (and a cobbler in the last game).

Okay. Enough today. More tomorrow.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, now I am to go to sleep... just now...

Oh, wilwa, sorry if we played together and I did not remember: but if it was in some of the recent games, it was probably so that I died sometime on Day 1, so I hope you can excuse me that I don't remember much interaction with you

And a short reply...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And Legate, if you're still around, you were talking about suspecting Sally, Wilwa, Eomer and Izzy like half of the Day - with no especially good "cases" against anyone of them (well, who has good cases on Day1 anyway?). But then you seemed to reverse yourself to a one-track-mind behaviour only concentrating on Izzy on the last hours and voting for her safely before the hassle in the end. I may be grasping at straws here but why did you stop suspecting the other three? Why weren't you entertaining the others as possible lynchees? Why did you tihnk Izzy more suspicious than Sally fex.?

Well, I decided for Isabell at one point, because she just seemed the most likely sneaky person slipping around to me. And I have decided sometime after that to just hold to it and see - because if I kept pondering, I would not end voting at all. I thought that perhaps presenting her as a case could make sense - at first I wanted to wait if there is support for that, because otherwise I could have voted sally (who already had more than one vote at that point, same as you), but the votes were still spread in such a way that it basically did not mean that other people (who had just one vote by then) could not get more votes. Basically, it made no difference for me whether Isa or sally will go (or Eomer or whoever, if somebody started to vote for them), so voting Isa just meant more possibility that one of my suspects will be lynched.

Okay. To bed now...

And me too. Good night, people. Back in several hours... or in the second half of the Day at most.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Wrong (the bolded part), as you yourself kind of admit in the follow-up. You seem to forget the important part of what you did there in the end of the Day... you defended yourself for nonexistent threats. Which is the way the baddies see the world: threats everywhere and everyone ready to lynch them. And really, I don't know about you but at least I'm very much interested in who gets lynched even if I'm not myself in danger (which is rare indeed). Innocents have a common cause and insecurity about how the lynchings go. The baddies know the different outcomes in advance and in a good situation they can sit back and relax. Which I think you were doing - and which you even admit.

I always reply when people say something about me, unless I deem it unimportant.

About the lynching. . .you said it your self

Originally Posted by Nogrod

well, who has good cases on Day1 anyway?

I knew I did not have a good case and that more often than not, it is an ordo who is lynched on day 1. . . Why would I go out and try to convince everyone to vote Isabel, when I was not at all sure of her guilt?
I am only obligated to tell why I vote as I do, I don't have to campaign for others to do the same.

Anyways I need sleep as well, so you will have to wait for a bit before I do any analysing.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh, wilwa, sorry if we played together and I did not remember: but if it was in some of the recent games, it was probably so that I died sometime on Day 1, so I hope you can excuse me that I don't remember much interaction with you

haha, no worries, to be honest the yesterDay I wasn't sure whether we had played together and had to go back and see, and it turns out we were both in Sally's game. Just thought it was funny that both of us had chosen to forget that game.

Anyway, down to business, some thoughts I meant to put down about half an hour ago before I was interrupted by the phone:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Now, don't jump on me for saying this, but the only way the Wraiths think she was the Seer is because she listed everyone and said that she has a good feeling about precisely one of them: and that's Eomer. I don't consider her bad feeling about Shasta to indicate Seer-dom because it was a straight-forward vote-based criticism that anyone could have made.

Now, I always think of finding the Seer first so those are my first thoughts. It could just be that she leaves no trail whatsoever, but I'm never sure Wraiths would kill like that.

Uhm, I disagree with you, and agree with Legate. Saying she's "keen" on you and then joking you're probably a wolf is not a good Kath-seer hint, she would have been far sneekier about any seer hints, and atleast one, if not more, of the wraiths would have known that about her.

I believe Kath was simply killed for being a safe kill. I'm very sure that Wraiths would kill like that, it's a totally logical way to go, they don't want to leave a trail, I know I've done it in past games as a baddie.

So basically, I don't think there's much info to get out of her posts. We should probably focus on the living, not the dead. Until maybe a few more Nights have passed, perhaps a pattern may arise from the Night choices and then Kath's death can be reconsidered then. But now, I believe it's not worth the time.

So anyway, here are my basic thoughts at this time about everyone:

Nienna: Her first post about waiting til there's more discussion is odd, but I can somewhat relate to that. I'm terrible at Day 1 banter and therefore participate very little, Nienna is probably like that aswell. I'm going to wait to see more of her before trying to form any sort of opinion. By Day 2, I'm sure she's bound to have more to say, if not then suspicion is possible for her.

Kent: I don't know, only a few posts, not much to go on, I believe this is his first game (correct me if I'm wrong), I'm gonna wait on him aswell, but I have to admit I was getting a negative vibe.

Legate: As I was reading through his posts from yesterDay at first I didn't like him too much, but now more and more I'm starting to feel good about him. I can honestly say I'm very glad the coin-toss didn't result in me voting him. Actually back in my post about yesterDays posting I think I may have put something in there meant for someone else, about a post on #65/66, will have to go back and check on that.

Nogrod: Well, he is Nogrod. I don't know, he is indeed aggressive, but I don't see that as really being anything new. So I'm iffy right now.

Shasta: Not at all much to go one. So nothing.

Nerwen: Doesn't like us sorcerors . I don't believe she voted, which I don't like, I think people are better voting early if they think there is a chance they won't be here on time, but seem to remember this being a usual Nerwen thing, though she was a baddie last time I played with her and she did this, so I don't really know. I'm keeping my eyes on her.

Nilp: is Nilp. For now, there's nothing else.

Rune: An old friend, haven't played with him in ages, and really can't remember his usual style, so nothing really to compare to. Though is very defensive, not only of himself but he is quick to defend others, which I don't actually see as totally bad, especially cause he defended me slightly yesterDay. But still.....yeah, not sure, but definitely not loving right now.

Lhuna: Consistent, which is good, stuck to Legate from the beginning, not really getting any overly negative vibes for now.

Eomer: Hmmm, yeah, not liking this at all. One thing that stands out from the notes I took earlier is that he seems to be leaning towards voting Nog for a while, but then later votes Izzy to save Nog, I'll go back and read the wording again exactly, but from that little bit I don't like it. And his post I commented on earlier doesn't sit well with me either. Later on toDay (after sleep, and re-reading, and discussion and such), I'll have a stronger opinion, but right now I'm leading towards guilty.

Groin: still nothing, at all, unless I missed him in there somewhere. He is still playing right??

Sally: Not a lot. So nothing yet.

Eönwë: Some random stuff, quite obsessed with that greek letter, haha. Not liking, but not strongly enough to vote for, atleast so far toDay.

Brinniel: Had a similar Day 1 to me yesterDay, so I'm OK with her so far, I'll wait and see til there's more.

Alright, so that's it from me for atleast a couple hours. I think I should probably be able to come back on in the next 3 hours or so before sleeping, always a chance that could change though, but I'll try my hardest. Tomorrow is suddenly full for me, but I'll hopefully be on randomly, and my vote will probably be far closer to the deadline. I'll try my best to be on as much as I can.

[Kent2010]

Kent: I don't know, only a few posts, not much to go on,
-wilwarin

Not to call you a hypocrit, and granted I am not lighting this ship on fire with many posts, but in this boat I am in the top half of posters and have more than you. And the phantom's last game was my first.

So now onto Nogrod. Out of all the fire and vigor he showed at the beginning, I was quite disappointed with his end performance, and that is why I am flipping my original opinion on him. When it came to the deadline, Nogrod fizzled out, or maybe he would say played more relax.

Your past deadline vote for sally looks bad I do not imagine you to be someone who likes to miss voting. There was a general confusion towards the end, but there is no indication you cross-posted with anyone (including Eonwe's vote before yours) - did you?

And as far as someone looking relaxed it did not seem like you minded whether it was Izzy or sally. In posts 102 and 109 you quote Izzy and say a couple words that looks like it's nudging suspicion towards her way.

Of those who have garnered votes this far I'd be most happy to vote for Sally basically for bandwaggoning an innocent.
-post 93

This is interesting, and this is what I was going to be suspicious of Kath for today, but that is moot now. Anyway, the over-reaction to the two votes against you worries me. First, I would not classify two early votes as a bandwagon - what happened to Izzy yesterday was a bandwagon. And secondly who determined you are innocent?

Okay. At the moment I'm inclined to vote either Groin or Eönwë. But they have an hour to change that inclination.
-post 73

Why didn't you go for Groin then? And why have you not pursued after him today?

[wilwarin538]

Not to call you a hypocrit, and granted I am not lighting this ship on fire with many posts, but in this boat I am in the top half of posters and have more than you. And the phantom's last game was my first.

I'll re-word then: yesterDay there were 6 posts by you, and the first 2 were random in-character Day 1 stuff (which I have no problem with), so 4 posts (even though that's more then my own count) is not enough for me to have a strong enough opinion; only a feeling, which is definitely subject to change and shouldn't cause you any worry for now since there are others that I'm far more unsure of. And I didn't follow phantom's game, I hadn't realised you had been in it, sorry for calling you a noobie.

So only 1 post since mine, I don't really have much more to add. I'm off to bed, hopefully I can make it on quickly in the morning, but the rest of my participation toDay will probably be in the last few hours leading up to the deadline.

[Nienna]

I've been trying to keep up but I really haven't had much time to read. I'll be around tomorrow more for a few hours before deadline when I will give more input.

And Sally is still making me nervous.

[Brinniel]

Poor Kath does seem to get eaten a lot early in the game, doesn't she? Probably because she's so quiet and untraceable.

Hmm...I'm still trying to wrap my head around everything; I feel so behind. Strangely, none of the votes towards the end of yesterDay bother me. Usually at least one initially sticks out as particularly bad, but not this time. But surely there's gotta be at least one rotten apple among the end-of-Day voters. That's how it usually ends up.

I need to take a look at the earlier voters too and see if anything sticks out from them. My suspects? Uhhh... The only one who currently worries me is Eomer, and that is all based off gut feeling. I obviously need to give more thought and research to this. I will try to contribute something more before I go to bed, but I am awfully tired and lacking in sleep, so we'll see.

Sorry, as I still won't be able to give outstanding participation toDay, but at least I certainly should be able to do more than yesterDay. For one thing, it looks like I'll have time to post some and then vote tomorrow, which is nice since I really hate voting at night when the thread is dead. And no more randomness, promise. I know you all hate it, and I'd rather be helpful, even if my time is limited.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Interesting how many people bit at that.

"No! No! It can't possibly be a Seer hint! It had to be because Kath left no trail!"

Why so jumpy? I even asked you not to jump at me?

Look at Kath's list. She is neutral about everyone; except she says she is "keen" on Eomer and "not keen" on Shasta. Now, where I come from, "keen" can be significant.

I'm not going to press the point any further, as I'm very far from convinced myself. It's just funny how three (I think) people have jumped on this rejecting it immediately, not even entertaining the notion. This whole decision of leaving Kath-discussion down to "IT WAS A SAFE KILL - THE END" strikes me as lazy.

Back with more later, hopefully, depends how busy work is.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Look at Kath's list. She is neutral about everyone; except she says she is "keen" on Eomer and "not keen" on Shasta. Now, where I come from, "keen" can be significant.

I'm not going to press the point any further, as I'm very far from convinced myself. It's just funny how three (I think) people have jumped on this rejecting it immediately, not even entertaining the notion. This whole decision of leaving Kath-discussion down to "IT WAS A SAFE KILL - THE END" strikes me as lazy.

Yes, but to be fair, people might be afraid that you're a wraith taking advantage of the situation to make yourself look innocent. After all, whether they killed her for looking Seerish or not, the fact is that her death doesn't obviously point to anyone, so why would the guilty parties not want it discussed? (Unless there's something in her posts that the innocents haven't noticed.)

But the other question is– why a no-trace kill, if that's indeed what it was? There was plenty of suspicion being thrown around last Night– did no-one manage to suspect a wraith? Or did they, and the wraiths were too afraid of striking the Hunter? Were there no opportunities for them to frame someone else?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Forgive me for my rather brief appearance yesterday (and the attendant fit of madness), but I have just spent the rest of that DAY in the palace of Númenor, attempting to establish an embassy between their island and the land of my origin. Alas that a proper fear of outsiders is not limited to a few men.

However I am glad to return toDAY to this most interesting colloquy . . . A lot of you have forwarded ideas about the death of poor dear Kath the previous NIGHT, and somehow I am relieved that some of us here are thinking--and speaking their thoughts. An exchange of information among people of thought has been one of the paths to enlightenment.

Now I shall wander a bit around the court, listening to conversations I might have missed. *opens fan, covers lower half of the face*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, but to be fair, people might be afraid that you're a wraith taking advantage of the situation to make yourself look innocent. After all, whether they killed her for looking Seerish or not, the fact is that her death doesn't obviously point to anyone, so why would the guilty parties not want it discussed? (Unless there's something in her posts that the innocents haven't noticed.)

But the other question is– why a no-trace kill, if that's indeed what it was? There was plenty of suspicion being thrown around last Night– did no-one manage to suspect a wraith? Or did they, and the wraiths were too afraid of striking the Hunter? Were there no opportunities for them to frame someone else?

I'm pleased someone else is not happy leaving it at NO TRACE KILL.

The point of Kath's death not obviously pointing to anyone speaks in favour of my hypothesis: namely, Kath left her dream (about me) as a hint. This makes Wilwa's comment that Kath would be sneakier in leaving a hint even odder : if Kath was so entirely unsubtle, why didn't anyone mention the obvious conclusion to draw except me. Well, no-one will take it seriously except me, it seems, and I can hardly gain information about my own role.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Brinniel votes for Sally, apparently because she likes her.

Shasta for Nogrod, apparently because he's stirring up too much trouble.

Nilp for Nilp, apparently because he's still ill.

Rune for Isabellkya, apparently because he sees her as being a bit too careful with her opening post.

Wilwa for Eomer, because of process of elimination then coin-toss.

Sally for Nogrod, for no apparent reason.

Lhuna for Legate, she thinks his posts feel contrived.

Kent for Rune, he didn't like Rune's vote for Izzy.

Nienna for Sally, she didn't like her vote for Nogrod.

Legate for Izzy, because he feels she didn't add any of her own thoughts.

Izzy for Sally, self-defense.

Kath for izzy, for suspicious previous post about leaving a tie.

Eomer for Izzy, not actually for that suspicious post Kath referenced (I hadn't seen it) but because I chose between her or Sally. Izzy just felt too careful and conservative and seemed likely to me.

Eonwe for Izzy, rather her than Sally or Nogrod.

Nogrod for Sally.


------------------------------------------------------------


Votes I don't like:

Brinniel, Shasta, Nilp, Wilwa and Sally's. Thing is, though, these are all early votes and the voters had less to go on.

Nothing else stands out... exactly what the Wraiths would want.

Ok, I'm looking for cool, sensible Wraiths now. The ones who made sensible votes that wouldn't attract attention.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

... here be potential smart Wraiths.

I was thinking Rune, but I'm swayed by Kent's doubts. I think it was a fair vote but put in, maybe, a clumsy way. Not sure.

Lhuna, Nienna, Legate, yes - all of these. Eonwe, possibly.

I don't really suspect Nogrod because he's drawn way too much attention to himself. I know he usually does that but he's gone a little bit further, even, in this game so far.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Nerwen: Doesn't like us sorcerors . I don't believe she voted, which I don't like, I think people are better voting early if they think there is a chance they won't be here on time

I think she said she had computer problems or something? So that isn't as questionable, I think.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Interesting how many people bit at that.

"No! No! It can't possibly be a Seer hint! It had to be because Kath left no trail!"

Why so jumpy? I even asked you not to jump at me?

Look at Kath's list. She is neutral about everyone; except she says she is "keen" on Eomer and "not keen" on Shasta. Now, where I come from, "keen" can be significant.

Where you come from. And as for being jumpy, not sure who is jumpy here, this far I think people merely commented about disagreeing with you. Of course, saying that people should not jump at you could be interpreted as also a sort of "pre-emptive defense", and that of course makes one's attention raised.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But the other question is– why a no-trace kill, if that's indeed what it was? There was plenty of suspicion being thrown around last Night– did no-one manage to suspect a wraith? Or did they, and the wraiths were too afraid of striking the Hunter? Were there no opportunities for them to frame someone else?

Now this is actually good question. The Hunter idea is interesting - however, would the Wraiths really be so much afraid of that? (In that case, they shouldn't dare to kill anybody at all! - Well, not that there would be anything wrong about that ) I mean, there is still the full number of us (okay, now minus two; it was minus one at Night) - so I think mathematically it's not that big chance. The less if the Hunter would manage to pick a Wraith as his target. Okay, another thing to consider might be, let's say, avoiding people who might be likely to be protected by the Ranger - but again, not quite sure who would that be after yesterDay, and also, the same problem as with the Hunter - there's still quite many of us, so the chance is quite small. So I really cannot think of such a reason being this. It really might be just some Wraiths playing it safe from the very beginning, or something else, like there being no better pick as everybody else would suspect some Wraith etc... but that seems a bit farfetched to me too. Hmm... maybe the opportunities to frame somebody else were just too small, so the Wraiths simply would not use the chance? Can't say.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The point of Kath's death not obviously pointing to anyone speaks in favour of my hypothesis: namely, Kath left her dream (about me) as a hint. This makes Wilwa's comment that Kath would be sneakier in leaving a hint even odder : if Kath was so entirely unsubtle, why didn't anyone mention the obvious conclusion to draw except me. Well, no-one will take it seriously except me, it seems, and I can hardly gain information about my own role.

Well, again, I think you are overstretching it. But mainly, not sure what, even if you were right, would you be capable to gain out of that? When it comes to catching the Wraiths?

Okay... Not sure if I'll be around now for some time again, but hopefully later, after a few hours, of nothing else...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, let me see. I mention one hypothesis about why Kath may have been killed, which just so happens to mention me being innocent.

Alarm bells, of course, go off.

Legate counters it, mentions that I could be a Wraith, and the only way to consider the theory is to presume my innocence beforehand (not so, by the way, the hypothesis itself is the evidence).

Then Nogrod responds: well, just happens to mention that I could be a culprit and that my post was a nice attempt to manipulate the village.

Wilwa posts, discrediting my hypothesis - oh look, I'm her top suspect now.

Brinniel consumes the vibes by osmosis: Kath was an untraceable kill - Eomer is a villain.

---------------

So yeah, looks to me like I've been jumped on. As for this:

"Well, again, I think you are overstretching it. But mainly, not sure what, even if you were right, would you be capable to gain out of that? When it comes to catching the Wraiths?"

Well, I'd be the only one not to gain because I already know. The village could gain, though. But then, we shouldn't be looking for personal gain, eh Legate?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

"Eomer: Hmmm, yeah, not liking this at all. One thing that stands out from the notes I took earlier is that he seems to be leaning towards voting Nog for a while, but then later votes Izzy to save Nog, I'll go back and read the wording again exactly, but from that little bit I don't like it. And his post I commented on earlier doesn't sit well with me either. Later on toDay (after sleep, and re-reading, and discussion and such), I'll have a stronger opinion, but right now I'm leading towards guilty."

Ok, I cannot let this go.

You are saying that I flip-flop on Nogrod. This is totally innaccurate. I said that I don't like Nogrod's method of suspecting everyone (apart from Legate) who had posted thus far, and promising to vote for someone who hadn't posted. I thought, and think, that that's very silly reasoning.

I then gave a joke post, about how Nogrod was getting angry and that we can make him go crazy.

Nowhere have I ever looked like I was going to vote for Nogrod, and so it's perfectly reasonable that I wanted to keep him alive at the end of Day One.

This comment, plus your reasoning for voting me yesterday, added to your refusal to think outside the box for the slaying of Kath, makes you look very bad to me now; and I know it's an unfortunately good chance that two people in-game who get on each other's wrong side will keep arguing until one is dead (and both are usually innocent) but such is human nature.

Lousy humans, inferior... bleh...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm glad it's quiet in the office today.

About this Nogrod - Rune, situation, it could really go either way. What Nogrod has to bear in mind is that not everyone wants to be village-leader - it's understandable that Rune decided to sit out and not post.

But it's fair to look out for baddie-behaviour and see who fits the pattern. Having said that, last time I tried that it led me to vote for Isabellkya. Hit or (mainly) miss.

I'm not really suspecting either at the moment.

Nerwen's someone I've missed because of the no-vote. I'm not sure about her.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

"Eomer: Hmmm, yeah, not liking this at all. One thing that stands out from the notes I took earlier is that he seems to be leaning towards voting Nog for a while, but then later votes Izzy to save Nog, I'll go back and read the wording again exactly, but from that little bit I don't like it. And his post I commented on earlier doesn't sit well with me either. Later on toDay (after sleep, and re-reading, and discussion and such), I'll have a stronger opinion, but right now I'm leading towards guilty."

Ok, I cannot let this go.

You are saying that I flip-flop on Nogrod. This is totally innaccurate. I said that I don't like Nogrod's method of suspecting everyone (apart from Legate) who had posted thus far, and promising to vote for someone who hadn't posted. I thought, and think, that that's very silly reasoning.

Did I not say that I had to go back and re-read everything? When I was making those comments I was going off memory and the quick notes I had made earlier, I had no intention of simply leaving it at that. I'll be going back later today and re-read everything far more thoroughly.


Alrighty, here's another quick list from me (in no specific order), since they are so fun and all:

Totally unsure of (due to either lack of posts or just utter confusion):
Nienna
Nogrod
Shasta
Nilp
Groin
Sally

Ok with:
Legate
Lhuna
Brinniel

Not really liking:
Kent
Nerwen
Rune
Eomer
Eönwë

So that is where I stand right now. I hope to be able to make it on randomly throughout the day, and will try to be here for the last half hour before deadline, or else I'll be voting about 1 hour before.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This is the absolutely last time I try to go back and re-read all posts. . .I have just wasted several hours on reading and writting, the really silly think is that I have not even looked at Legate, Eomer and Nogrod yet! That will have to wait, I need to get some school work done today.

Anyways I will start with giving you some of my thoughts of peoples behaviour yesterday.


The Innocent!


Wilwarin538:
Day1: She cannot make it back later as she promised and she clearly has no idea who to vote for so she decides set up some criteria in order to figure out who to vote for. Then defends her choice to Eomer. I think she looks very innocent, she might not have contributed much and not posted much of substance, but the way she chose her lynch seems genuinely like a person who is clueless and in a hurry, I believe a wolf would have voted more in the way I did. Giving vague but valid reason and then maybe attach a comment about randomness or day 1 befuddlement

Lhunardawen:
Day1: Starts of with an introduction post, then she produces a really good post. It is relatively short, but gives a clear impression of her thoughts of certain people. She does not make it silly long with non-statements. Also when people come up very long cases on day 1, then you know they are over analyzing. She then votes. . . A generally innocent feel about her, but it is mostly based on post nr. 2.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Her posts don't look too seerish to me unless Eomer is one of the culprits - which he of course has neatly tried to counter already toDay.

Kath's saying she was "keen" on Eomer would look anything but Seerish to a Wraith of the Rohirrim. Or do you refer to the following line, "probably means he's a wolf but there you go"?

Well... it seems to me that the sensible thing for a guilty Eomer would be to raise the point in his favour (or let one of his packmates do it), and then let the matter drop, rather than harping on it the way he's doing. And I do agree with him that people have been far too quick to dismiss Kath's death– though not so much because I think she left Seer-hints as such.

As of his last few posts, though, Eomer seems to be really overreacting to the amount of suspicion against him... we all know what that can mean.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now this is actually good question. The Hunter idea is interesting - however, would the Wraiths really be so much afraid of that? (In that case, they shouldn't dare to kill anybody at all! - Well, not that there would be anything wrong about that ) I mean, there is still the full number of us (okay, now minus two; it was minus one at Night) - so I think mathematically it's not that big chance.

I was thinking specifically of whether they would be afraid that anyone who looked too Seer-ish was in fact the Hunter (i.e. trying to look like the Seer) as has been known to happen. There was a nasty incident involving a vigilante-Mith a couple of games back.

They may have simply decided to wait until they have a clearer idea what everyone else is (pointing to rather smooth baddies).

Or else the kill-choice might point to Nogrod (or a framing attempt).

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa and Rune.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

The Evil Ones:

Nerwen:
Day1:Has 3 in character posts, which seems to contain a few suspicions. . .I did not pick up on them because of the way it was written..
Day2: Argues that Kath was a no trace kill.

Nothing can be concluded from day1 alone, but the way she has started Day2 may indicate that she is a careful wolf.

Eönwë:
Day1: His day 1 mostly consists of a whole lot of comments, some alright and some completely irrelevant and then vote for Isabel. . .
Day2: Shows up, says hardly anything and then asks people what they think.

I think he looks bad, he posts quite a lot, but it is mostly comments to what others have said and he hardly puts anything forth him self. This is all topped off with a voted which is not based on suspicion.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Nothing can be concluded from day1 alone, but the way she has started Day2 may indicate that she is a careful wolf.

Uh... care to share that one with the class, Rune?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Could Go Either Way:

Kent2010:
Day1: Starts of with 2 random posts before getting to the business. He then gets started by reacting to Nogrod’s comments and then attacks me for my “attack” on Nogrod. He seems to have gotten the impression that I wanted Nogrod lynched, which was not at all the case. His response to Wilwa puzzles me, it seems like one of those “good” things to say, which is painfully obvious and only seem to be said in order to look good. In his last 2 posts of the day he talks about being confused, feeling good about Legate and Eomer and then he votes for me. I seem to be the focus of his suspicions, in fact I seem to be the only one he really speaks against. It might be because he misunderstood my debate with Nogrod. (btw it is not the first time me and Nogrod end up in this discussion). He generally seems OK, but his response to Wilwa worries me. . .Maybe, just maybe he is the kind of wolf who deliberately misunderstand people and build cases on it.


Day2: He starts of with declaring that he thinks me innocent, something I obviously enjoy reading, but there where other reasons for me to like his first 2 posts of the day. He seems to look at things in a different way, one could say “with fresh eyes”. I really like how he questions everything from your actions, to certain phrases that you use. He also points out that Nogrod demands a lot of people and talks a lot, but when deadline comes it is seldom that he himself deliver. On the negative side there is his respons to Wilwa “Not to call you a hypocrit”. . .if you don’t want to call people hypocrites then don’t use the word. (It is very simple) It seems like a very odd thing to say.



I like the way he has played today, but of course a wolf could play just the same. Day 2 leaves the same impression as Day1, generally I like him, but there are some things that makes me wonder.


Brinniel:
Day1: I don’t like her first comment of the game, it seems like it is written so that people shall pity her, but then again it is very like her to portray her self as a victim. (I could be reading it wrong) She then explains that she will not be around much, which is fair enough. Makes a random vote and that is about it. . . She seems like her self, but she is one of those people that is very hard to figure out.



Nienna:
]Day1: Not much to go on, only have 2 posts of substance. . . In the first she defends her self against the bile of Nogrod. She then votes Sally because she thinks her vote for Nogrod looks like an attempt to start a bandwagon. It is impossible to determine anything from that. . .she participates, but without putting anything of substance forth, a typical day1 situation.
Day2: Starts day 2 much in the same manner as she started day1, is still freaked out by Sally, promises to be back before deadline.

I will leave it to later before deciding if she I consider her a lynch candidate.


Satansaloser2005:
Day1: She starts more directly than others with a post with her thoughts, which is a mix of serious and silly comments. She then replies to some comments and expand on her worries about Nogrod before voting for him. I don’t think one can expect much more from a day one. I am a bit worried though, because Sally strikes me as different than how I remember her. . .this might mean she has a different role than before.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Uh... care to share that one with the class, Rune?

You go into a debate about Kath was a no-trace kill and that is basicly all you had done. It is a very safe debate to get into, it is not the thing that will get you lynched, it might even make you look good.

There is nothing wrong with going into the debate, but when there is little else of substance then it make you look slightly evil to me.

I have not read your latest post yet, it might change my view. We are still early in the game so my view can still change relatively easy.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I seem to recall Wilwa about ready to vote for Lhuna - she said something about Lhuna creeping into her house in the dead of night to try to feast on her young, or something like that - so imagine my surprise when Wilwa did not in fact vote for Lhuna to be executed. Of course, I'll need to go back and check the wording but that's how I remember it. It's this kind of inconsistency which really gets me. I'm leaning towards thinking she's guilty but I'll confirm my opinion later.

Or does anyone see a problem with this?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

You go into a debate about Kath was a no-trace kill and that is basicly all you had done. It is a very safe debate to get into, it is not the thing that will get you lynched, it might even make you look good.

??? I was speculating on the implications of the kill, not arguing on whether it was no-trace or not.

EDIT: X'd with Eomer.