Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And who says WK didn't betray anyone when he became a ringwraith?

He probably did. But the WiKi, using Morth's abbreviation which makes him sound like a high-tech gadget, is one of the bad guys through and through and though he was incompetent, at least he was loyal to his team. That said, I wish I could change my vote. This is the bad popularity thread after all and Maeglin is indeed a much better villain.

[CaptainofDespair]

++The Witch-King

Because if I didn't support him, I'd be betraying myself...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A respectable effort by Maeglin, but:
Maeglin-4 WKoA -8

Next up: Watcher in the Water vs. Sauron

WinW is one of those interesting, autonomous
forces, some for good and others for evil, in LOTR (like ents, Shelob,
and Caradhras) that give both depth and a sense
of realism (think of World War II motivations and
interactions of U.S. and U.K.- common goal against
nazis but diametrically opposed views of British
colonialism).
As Aragorn observed of Caradhras:

There are many evil and unfriendly
things in the world that have little love for those that go
on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but
have purposes of their own. Some have been in this
world longer then he.

And Sauron is quite interestingly different in the Three
Ages: First- a loyal lieutenant to Morgoth
Second-arguably the dominant player
Third-an unseen but looming (except for PJ's eyeball) presence.

[Nerwen]

*looks over previous round*
*chuckles*

It's quite clear: the male Downers are jealous of Maeglin!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It's quite clear: the male Downers are jealous of Maeglin!

Ummm...why jealous? Maeglin didn't end up with the hot babe.

Oh, and I vote for ++Sauron.

[Nerwen]

Now, this is a really easy one. No contest.

The big squid-thing has to be one of the most awesome villains in the history of villainy. Such a fascinating character. So vitally important to the story– look how it changed the entire history of Middle-Earth by giving Frodo a scare and eating up Óin or Glóin or Sleepy or Happy or Grumpy or whoever it was. Not to mention the fact that it would probably make great calamari.

Why Tolkien had to go and name the book after some sissy jeweller when he could have called it The Watcher in the Water or The Thing With Lots of Tentacles or simply Squid! I'll never understand. I'm sure H.P. Lovecraft would be with me on this one.

Nevertheless, for some reason I feel compelled to vote

++Sauron.

[Andsigil]

Immortal, uber-powerful Maiar and contemporary source of all evil in Middle Earth vs. squishy thing that Red Wings fans throw onto the ice?

Let me think... umm.....

....


Oh, yeah. ++Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Heck, just to give it a contest.

++The Watcher in the Water

After all, come on. He is cool. He eats Óin. And he would eat a few more Boromirs too, had they not been cowards and fled inside Moria. The Watcher is certainly a cute octopus.

[Thinlómien]

++Sauron

To quote myself in the previous popularity cup:

++Sauron

He's a werewolf!

I mean... it's serious this time.

--

Sauron --.... he's twisted. He's rather boring maybe in LotR as he's reduced to being merely "the enemy", but in the Silmarillion and the UT he's gory and very fascinating... All that cunning, all those beautiful lies, the immense charisma, the extreme cruelty (Gorlim and Eilinel - that's really the most horror stuff Tolkien ever wrote) and of course, he was the lord of werewolves and also, a mighty singer. You've got to admit he was pretty darn cool before he became very boringly just "the Dark Lord". (Also, I love the name "the Necromancer", more so actually in the Finnish translation. It's been translated with the word that corresponds to "witch" and using it of men is totally appropriate, but rather rare. It always intrigued me. Also, Dol Gûldur is just really creepy however little we know about it...)

The Watcher in the Water taking Óin is indeed rather fascinating and scary, but other than that, I never liked the monster very much.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Why not the WintW ? Just imagine the
plot twist if he had gobbled up Frodo and
put on the Ring. (And boy, can that
Ring expand)!

+ + Watcher in the Water

Of course, if Sauron should somehow eke
out a win it would set up an interesting match
between the WK and his boss.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

After all, come on. He is cool. He eats Óin. And he would eat a few more Boromirs too, had they not been cowards and fled inside Moria. The Watcher is certainly a cute octopus.

Actually the book says that Óin was "taken" by the Watcher. Who knows, maybe it was lonely and only wanted someone to talk to.

I agree with Lommy. There's no contest.

++Sauron

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Actually the book says that Óin was "taken" by the Watcher. Who knows, maybe it was lonely and only wanted someone to talk to.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *wonders if she should retract after all*

[CaptainofDespair]

The Watcher in the Water?

It is mysterious, many-armed, and it doesn't need to trick a bunch of Elves, Dwarves, and Men into putting on some rings so it can try to dominate them. Then again, it does seem rather confined to...water.

And Sauron is, after all, Sauron.

Hmm...

++The Watcher in the Water

[the phantom]

*rolls eyes*

Big ugly monster, or....

Brilliant cruel evil dominant force for three ages of Middle Earth.

Tough.

++Sauron

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Watcher in the Water-3 Sauron-5

Sauron keeps his eye on the prize, WinW goes
on to use the gold he liberated from elves and
dwarves to work on financing a canal to the
Encircling Sea.

Next:

The Black Cat (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Ar-Pharazon

Should non-cat lovers prevail the question would arise of
how to dispose of the cat:
Queen Beruthiel uses it to swab a deck?
A fur hat for a balding dwarf?

[Morthoron]

My daughter has a black cat (or actually, the cat allows her to feed it and deigns to be petted when and if it feels like it). But he is a cat. *shrugs*

++Ar-Pharazon.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I had a black cat who was actually quite unusual for his kind: he knew who was boss, and he knew it wasn't him.

Ar-Pharazon, on the other hand, reminds me of many people I've known who think the world exists for their greater glory, and all else (greater powers included) are somehow subservient to their will.

Given that, I choose

++The Black Cat of Queen Beruthiel

He (or she?) was one of a kind.

[Andsigil]

Yet another cat? And this time, against the man who led an armada against Valinor?

Bleah.

++Ar Pharazon

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am not sure about this one at all. Because, there are some things which are quite interesting about Ar-P, however, I am not sure if he "deserves" to win this one. I mean: he is neither any fascinating evil character (rather a misguided fool), nor a great character with some amazing character trait (can't think of any), he was perhaps only a cool conqueror, yes, that is true. I am quite amazed by his victory over Sauron - imagine the massive army he must have had, had to be quite impressive assault - and this monument they raised in Umbar to mark his victory there. It has something quite realistic in itself - it is said that despite all the horrible deeds Ar-P has done, this victory was always held by the Dúnedain in memory as something to be really proud of in their history, and to be proud of Ar-P, that means, consequently. (I am kind of comparing inside my mind - our history/ies are full of characters of kings and leaders like this; the first I now thought of, if I imagine let's say Stalin, it was probably something very similar, he was praised for what he did in turning back the Nazis and eventually beating them on the eastern front. One cannot deny him this, whatever his other deeds were like - of course, another thing are also the uncountable dead even in the war because of the way it was fought...)

Well, seems like I made it clear for myself after all through some reflection on the course of writing this

++Ar-Pharazon the Golden

[Durelin]

I love cats. Ar-Pharazon was an egotistical fool of a Sauron-puppet who ruined it for everyone.

++The Black Cat of Queen Beruthiel

[Groin Redbeard]

Since this is a villain thread, and not a character appreciation thread, I would have to go with:

++Ar Pharazon

I hate what he turned Numenor into because of his pride, but he is the better villain.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

it is said that despite all the horrible deeds Ar-P has done, this victory was always held by the Dúnedain in memory as something to be really proud of in their history, and to be proud of Ar-P, that means, consequently. (I am kind of comparing inside my mind - our history/ies are full of characters of kings and leaders like this; the first I now thought of, if I imagine let's say Stalin, it was probably something very similar, he was praised for what he did in turning back the Nazis and eventually beating them on the eastern front. One cannot deny him this, whatever his other deeds were like - of course, another thing are also the uncountable dead even in the war because of the way it was fought...)

Another example, to me, of questionable admiration is the American for
Andrew Jackson, a rather unlikable, bullyish, duel-happy person,
whose chief military success (The Battle of New Orleans) was irrelevant to
the "tie" result of the War of 1812, and his anti-Native American action,
driving them from the South to the west was compounded by his ignoring
a Supreme Court decision against it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Ar-Pharazon

[Aganzir]

++ Ar-Pharazôn

He was an irritating fool but I rather vote for him than a random cat.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Ar-Pharazon -6
Black Cat -2

Next: Glaurung vs. Thuringwethil

While Glaurung the Deceiver is well-known, here's some
info on his worthy opponent (from Tolkien Gateway):

Thuringwethil (perished First Age c. 465) was a Vampire servant of Sauron during the First Age. She was Sauron's messenger, but was caught in the battle between her master and Lúthien and Huan at Tol-in-Gaurhoth ("Isle of Werewolves"). She was slain either by the Hound of Valinor or in the collapse of Minas Tirith. Lúthien later used her cloak to sneak into Angband during the Quest for the Silmaril.

Because of Thuringwethil's ability to change forms, she may have been a Maia.

[edit] Etymology
The name Thuringwethil is difficult to translate. The direct translation is "Secret Sister" (from thurin = "secret, hidden" and gwethil = "sister, associate"), but Tolkien took her name to mean "Woman of Secret Shadow".

[Morthoron]

++Glaurung

Thuringwethil is not even intriguing in her obscurity. I mean, really, when your claim to fame is that someone else skinned you and wore you like a Halloween costume, there isn't much happening for you.

[Andsigil]

Glaurung was the nuclear weapon of his age, whereas Thuringwethil killed or destroyed.... umm.......?

++Glaurung

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Thuringwethil is not even intriguing in her obscurity.

Morth phrased it here in a short and most precise way. For some reason, it's almost as if she wasn't needed to be there.

All right, when one starts to think about it... she was Sauron's messenger, flying from Tol-in-Gaurhoth... it might have been interesting, or rather, it would have been very interesting if we could, let's say, glimpse a bit of dialogue between her and Sauron (all right, that's more than you usually get even about the Nazgul or such). Now I am sure it would be cool. But this way... really, she just fits into the row of unknown characters, or unknown female (!) characters - which is a pity, as she certainly had some potential (I am sure Tolkien would not make her any close to the "primitive stereotypical zero-personality villain" like most movie-makers or story-writers nowadays would make her: I mean, you hear "she-vampire" and you can basically guess along which lines she would be. I hope nobody will ever make the Silm a movie, otherwise I am sure they will give more place to her than in the book. Unfortunately).

In any case, it's the "don't-look-to-the-eyes-of-a-stranger" guy with some primeval stage of the Voice of Saruman (hmm... great. Now it made me think about the difference between audio- and visual manipulation portrayed on these two... could almost make a good thread) who is getting my vote this time.

++Glaurung

[Eönwë]

++Glaurung

Always been one of my favourite evil characters in the Silm (Well, always may be a bit strong, I only read the Silm something like 4 years ago).

Charismatic and evil in a hardened way, but very intruiging. He also strikes me as somewhat intelligent, even though he is a little too sure of himself.

[skip spence]

Smaug is great and all but Glaurung's still his daddy.

I'm tempted to quote a few segments from CoH and the sack of Nargothrond:

Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, and fire was in his eyes, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame. But Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. Without fear Túrin looked in those eyes as he raised up his sword; and straightway he fell under the dreadful spell of the dragon, and was as one turned to stone. Thus long they stood unmoving, silent in front of the great Doors of Felagund. Then Glaurung spoke again taunting Túrin. 'Evil have been all your ways, son of Húrin,' said he. 'Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of your friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of your own kin. As thralls your mother and sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want. You are arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags. For you they yearn, but you care not for that. Glad may your father be to learn that he has such a son: as learn he shall.'

A bit later:

Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his master. Then he turned to his own pleasure, and sent forth his blast, and burned all about him. But all the Orcs that were busy in the sack he routed forth, and drove them away, and denied them the plunder even to the last thing of worth. The bridge he then broke down and cast into the foam of Narog; and being thus secure he gathered all the hoard and riches of Felagund and heaped them, and lay upon them in the innermost hall, and rested for a while.

Glaurung up against a fur coat? Bah!

++Glaurung

[Tuor in Gondolin]

For contrarians:
+ + Thuringwethil

P.S. Glaurung just doesn't have Smaug's
sardonic sense of humor. And he can't fly!

[Groin Redbeard]

Wow, I thought that it would be a closer contest than this. I thought that Thuringwethil's "coolness" would certainly be a match for Glaurung's intriguingly twisted way of speaking.

++Glaurung

[the phantom]

Glaurung is the father of dragons, and he did some pretty darn evil things.

But I just find Thuringwethil interesting. I wish we knew more about her. A flying vampire lady. Very cool. I picture her like this when in flight or battle.

And like most vampires she can take on a more human form (for disguise, and seducing the enemy). For that I picture this and this (minus the gun of course).

Deadly and beautiful. I simply must answer-

++Thuringwethil

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And like most vampires she can take on a more human form (for disguise, and seducing the enemy). For that I picture this and this (minus the gun of course).

Deadly and beautiful. I simply must answer-

Ick! To elvish! I think that a messenger of Morgoth would look a little more demonic than that. By the way, do we know if Thuringwethil is a girl? The name certainly sounds girly.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Groin

Ick!

You see Kate Beckinsale and say "ick"???

That's just... wow... you need some help, buddy.

Originally Posted by Groin

I think that a messenger of Morgoth would look a little more demonic than that.

Sauron was constantly taking on beautiful forms to fool the good guys. And I recall that Frodo said, "I think a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler."

Evil must be attractive sometimes. Otherwise not as many people would go along with it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Glaurung-6 Thuringwethil-2

Next: A match everyone's been waiting for!

Golfimbul vs. Bill Ferny

Golfimbul's clearly malevolent, invading the Shire and (granted
inadvertently) being a participant in the invention of
the evil game of golf (don't get me started ).
Of course, if there's a hovel in The Halls of Waiting for orcs
(after all, they may be of elvish origin!) the other orcs
probably razz him constantly for losing a battle to hobbits.

And Bill Ferny is obviously a sly survivor, who probably took
riches earned by being a spy (for both Orthanc and Baraddur?)
and helping Sharkey loot the Shire to set himself up in comfort
in the Far East or South.

[Morthoron]

++Bill Ferny

I'm not much of a fan of golf. I also enjoy Ferny's use of the mild expletive 'garn'.

[Andsigil]

"Golf, the best way to spoil a good walk"
-Winston Churchill

++Bill Ferney for reminding me of a US Congressman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And Bill Ferny is obviously a sly survivor, who probably took
riches earned by being a spy (for both Orthanc and Baraddur?)

As I read his character, he was probably a spy for anybody who just happened to come by. He was in no real connection to Barad-Dur (how could he even be), but he happened to be just at the right place at the right time to meet the Nazgul; as Strider says, he "would sell anything to anybody".

I like Ferny a lot because of this double-dealing, as a traitor, I like him, in fact, far more than Gríma. Besides, I like his squint-eyed friend a lot as well.

I like Golfimbul too, but here I just have to make way for Bill. (Even though he is apparently not being that nice to animals.)

++Bill Ferny

[Thinlómien]

You guys are boring. You should have let Thuringwethil (who does not look like Kate Beckinsale though! ) through and let the boring, over-appreciated nasty worm be kicked out of this competition...

Anyway,

++Bill Ferny

because he's nice (except in the late ww game ). Golfimbul, on the other hand, does not strike me as interesting or cool in any way and if he is even partly to be blamed for the invention of Golf, he deserves to be hated.